NYC777
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Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:58 am

What's interesting about this week was not what was booked but cancellations:

737 calcellations went from 10 to 4
Appearance of 3 787 (yes, 787) cancellations. I wonder who?

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm
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ti717
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:50 am

There are still the 20 777 out there and a bunch of 737.
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planemannyc
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:54 am

Wasn't there a discussion here that the 20 777s going to QR?

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boeingbus
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
737 calcellations went from 10 to 4

This is most likely ATA's order where they cancelled the -800 and maybe now they have decide to opt for some -700's?

The 787 is a total mystery... but I wouldn't be surprised if an airline is going to trade up to the 777 so they free up some 787 slots for another airline, like SQ?
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redflyer
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Appearance of 3 787 (yes, 787) cancellations. I wonder who?

Could it be Primaris or one of the other vapor carriers that we all knew would never see the light of day in a 787?
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katekebo
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:58 am

I think it's no surprise that we will see some cancellations of B787 orders, as some of the orders where of doubtful quality anyway (Panorama Blue, First Choice, ......).
 
NYC777
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:01 am

But I believe BLue Panorama and First Choice finalized their orders. What changed? And if they were going to cancel them why only 3 and not all of them (the only airline that has 3 787s on order is Xiaman Airlines)?
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boeingbus
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:02 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 4):

Could it be Primaris or one of the other vapor carriers that we all knew would never see the light of day in a 787?

Primaris order was never firmed up. Still is just a MOU or LOI... they placed money down for slots until they firm it up.
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starrion
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:02 am

Primaris was never firmed, so there would be no cancellation if they have evaporated. the -3 means firmed orders are not going to be taken up.

Blue Pan or first choice would be my first thoughts though....
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DavidT
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:02 am

First Choice are a pretty well known and extensive company here, they're not another Primaris!
 
andahuailas
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:13 am

In any event whats with the Primaris order. I don't think they are for real
 
ti717
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:13 am

The 3 787 are CO from Last year. Notice the it says 13 for the 787 order this year. This means that it is a zero net gain on 787 orders.
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ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Appearance of 3 787 (yes, 787) cancellations. I wonder who?

Part of me wonders if this is an accounting thing regarding CO's 13 orders + 10 from before = 20. Only thing is, CO only officially had 7 orders hit the books, but if this new order is at a different price, there might be some kind of accounting thing going on here, where the 3 CO orders will be adjusted to having been booked last year and then canceled this year with the new order?

Just a thought.
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NYC777
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
Part of me wonders if this is an accounting thing regarding CO's 13 orders + 10 from before = 20. Only thing is, CO only officially had 7 orders hit the books, but if this new order is at a different price, there might be some kind of accounting thing going on here, where the 3 CO orders will be adjusted to having been booked last year and then canceled this year with the new order?

Just a thought.

That would be weir. Last year CO firmed 7 of the 10 that they initially ordered. Just a few weeks ago the ordered nother ten and we saw on Boeing's order book a posting for 13 (firming 3 from last years order + 10 from this year). Now why would CO take back 3? It just doesn't make any sense.
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katekebo
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting Ti717 (Reply 11):
The 3 787 are CO from Last year. Notice the it says 13 for the 787 order this year. This means that it is a zero net gain on 787 orders.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
this is an accounting thing regarding CO's 13 orders + 10 from before = 20.

I think you are right.
 
NYC777
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:54 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 14):
Quoting Ti717 (Reply 11):
The 3 787 are CO from Last year. Notice the it says 13 for the 787 order this year. This means that it is a zero net gain on 787 orders.



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 12):
this is an accounting thing regarding CO's 13 orders + 10 from before = 20.

I think you are right.

But that is assuming that CO firmed up all 10 787s from last year as well as firming 13 787s this year. I don't think that has happened.
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Glom
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:12 am

Quoting NYC777 (Thread starter):
Appearance of 3 787 (yes, 787) cancellations. I wonder who?

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ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 15):
But that is assuming that CO firmed up all 10 787s from last year as well as firming 13 787s this year. I don't think that has happened.

not necessarily. as I said, sometimes for accounting, you have to firm up something just to cancel it and rebook it.

I'm not saying that's what happened, but it is a possibility. I've seen that kind of thing in other businesses, and it might also account for the 737 changes too, since CO ordered both this year and had orders already on the books for both...
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 15):
But that is assuming that CO firmed up all 10 787s from last year as well as firming 13 787s this year. I don't think that has happened.

Perhaps CO firmed 7 of their 10 last year. They then told Boeing they'd like 10 more, if they could get a better price on those ten plus the three they haven't yet firmed. Boeing said yes, CO cancelled the three under the "old" price and bought them (again), now under the "new price" along with ten more under the "new" price.

Possible?
 
NYC777
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:26 am

Possible. In the end we'll all find out. It's relatively minor and if it is a true cancellation by an airline then it opens up three early (hopefully) slots that can be used for a bigticket carrier (EK, QR?).
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ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:57 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 18):
Perhaps CO firmed 7 of their 10 last year. They then told Boeing they'd like 10 more, if they could get a better price on those ten plus the three they haven't yet firmed. Boeing said yes, CO cancelled the three under the "old" price and bought them (again), now under the "new price" along with ten more under the "new" price.

that's my theory if it is CO. and those old orders would actually go into the books last year if they wanted them to, depending on what the contract dates said.

but it might be someone else. Nobody ordered 3 only so it's not a customer completely backing out.

Perhaps NW pairing back their order to 15 under BK?
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atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:54 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 17):

I'm not saying that's what happened, but it is a possibility. I've seen that kind of thing in other businesses, and it might also account for the 737 changes too, since CO ordered both this year and had orders already on the books for both...

Boeing hasn't updated the 787 model orders and deliveries page, and they still list only 7 there from last year. I don't see why they would cancel 3 CO orders with adding another 3 to CO's orders.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
but it might be someone else. Nobody ordered 3 only so it's not a customer completely backing out.

Xiamen Airlines only has 3 ordered, out of the 60 ordered by China.

[Edited 2006-06-16 04:23:31]
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ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 21):
Xiamen Airlines only has 3 ordered, out of the 60 ordered by China.

yeah. didn't count them, because the customer is China, and Xiamen was just allotted 3 of them per edict from on high.

China wouldn't cancel three. They would just reallocate them, and possibly even in a sensible fashion...  Wink
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PhilSquares
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 21):
Xiamen Airlines only has 3 ordered, out of the 60 ordered by China.

It is Xiamen Airlines which converted their 3 787s to 6 737s. They had previously ordered 21 737-700/800. 11 delivered so far.
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STT757
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:14 pm

Here's my theory:

CO originally ordered 10 787-800s in 2004 for delivery begining in 2009, however they only firmed up 7 of those original 10.

Fast forward to June 2006 and CO announces another 10 787s, the second batch is scheduled for delivery begining in 2011 (I believe?). However the new order is actually for 13, making CO's total firm order 20 787s.

I have a feeling that another huge customer wanted a certain amount of early 2009 787 delivery spots, to accomodate the customer Boeing went to CO whom they have an excellent relationship with and asked them to give up three early delivery spots in exchange a substantial discount on the next batch of 13 787s and the 26 additional 737NGs.

Boeing cancelled the three 2009 787s for CO, and they worked out a new agreement for an additional 13 787s to be delivered in 2011.
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:18 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 23):
It is Xiamen Airlines which converted their 3 787s to 6 737s. They had previously ordered 21 737-700/800. 11 delivered so far.

PhilSquares is correct. It should be noted though that the CASC retains the 3 x 787 slots.

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PhilSquares
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:19 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 24):
Here's my theory:

Please see previous post.....

For all you doubters, here's the reference http://lister.speednews.com/a/061606ht/jun16.pdf
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PolymerPlane
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:13 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 23):
It is Xiamen Airlines which converted their 3 787s to 6 737s. They had previously ordered 21 737-700/800. 11 delivered so far.

This is kinda good right, since in order race the airframe counts, not the value. This will give Boeing better edge right?  Wink Big grin. Anyway, I do not think Boeing will be terribly unhappy with this cancellation. They could probably pick up more 787 customer if they can persuade CASC to transfer the slot.

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PanAm_DC10
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:16 pm

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 26):
Please see previous post.....

The question now is. Who get's the 3 x 788 delivery slots?

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atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:49 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 22):
China wouldn't cancel three. They would just reallocate them, and possibly even in a sensible fashion...  

But because Boeing books its Chinese orders without cooking the books, they have to show the cancellation.

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 28):
The question now is. Who get's the 3 x 788 delivery slots?

Were they scheduled to get aircraft before the Olympics as well? I guess they would have at least one very early slot.

Maybe CR will get them. I don't see the CASC giving them up.
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:32 pm

I would imagine that the three 787 slots could go to someone else if appropriate arrangements could be made. Demand for the 787 is a bit overheated right now, as I understand it.

[Edited 2006-06-16 07:41:01]
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blsbls99
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:39 pm

Will the 6 737s for Xiamen come out of the new 80 737s that were ordered by CASC this year?
I would assume that CASC will still hold the slots/purchase rights to 3 787s for another Chinese carrier?
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glideslope
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RE: Boeing Order Summary For 6/13/06

Fri Jun 16, 2006 8:03 pm

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 3):
The 787 is a total mystery... but I wouldn't be surprised if an airline is going to trade up to the 777 so they free up some 787 slots for another airline, like SQ?

Agree completely.
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