nycfly75
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DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:08 am

I figure I start a new thread since the other one was getting long. Anyway, Im happy DL is expanding the way they are at JFK, im especially excited about LGW service by DL from JFK. Any chance DL can buy the UAL LHR slots?
 
DL787932ER
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:11 am

DL doesn't have permission to fly to LHR, which is a separate issue from the slot matter. Only AA and UA can fly to LHR from the US, and only BA and VS can fly to the US from LHR.

If/when Britain opens LHR to more foreign competition, DL has a deal with AF/KL to acquire some of their slots.
F L Y D E L T A J E T S
 
nycfly75
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:21 am

Quoting DL787932ER (Reply 1):
DL doesn't have permission to fly to LHR, which is a separate issue from the slot matter. Only AA and UA can fly to LHR from the US, and only BA and VS can fly to the US from LHR.

If/when Britain opens LHR to more foreign competition, DL has a deal with AF/KL to acquire some of their slots.

DL, what I was asking is would UAL be open to selling all the JFK-LHR slots if they arent using them to make some money.


RJ,

I disagree with your opinion that DL cant come close or be at JFK what CO is at EWR. Perhaps right now there are certain infrastructure limitations. But if a new terminal comes about down the road, you can have a mega skyteam hub at JFK with DL doing a nice sized domestic feeder operation into JFK for O&D as well as to feed its major international operation, as well as its sky team partners. JFK can become America's Skyteam Fortress over time. Especially if UA and CO merge, this has a greater chance of happening with EWR being a Star Super Hub and JFK a SKyteam super hub.
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:23 am

Thx Nycfly757. That baby was talking a long time to load.

I don't think the treaty allows other airlines to fly into LHR by purchasing the routes.

I'm told that early this year, Delta witnessed an large boom in European online bookings, after signing on with some major travel sites over there. They were just floored with the revenue that started to come in.

I can't guess the routes. It's wide open when an airline has substantially lower costs than the competition.
 
nycfly75
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 3):
I don't think the treaty allows other airlines to fly into LHR by purchasing the routes.

Hmm was there a change in the treaty?..how did Pan Am and TWA sell these same rights to AA and UA?
 
Longhornmaniac
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 2):
DL, what I was asking is would UAL be open to selling all the JFK-LHR slots if they arent using them to make some money.

I don't even pretend to understand the workings of Bermuda II, but if I'm not mistaken, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I believe what he's saying is that even if UA sold their slots to DL, they wouldn't be able to fly them. As I understand it, it has nothing to do with slots, its that only AA, UA, BA, and VS have the actual right to fly their airplanes from the US to LHR, regardless of what slots they have, or what slots other airlines have.

I could very well be wrong, and am open to correction.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
USPIT10L
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 4):
Hmm was there a change in the treaty?..how did Pan Am and TWA sell these same rights to AA and UA?

The slots were sold because AA and UA were the "logical" successors to TW and PA, respectively. It was and is a very controversial issue. Read Hard Landing by Thomas Petzinger,Jr. Very good read.

As it is, DL does not have access to Heathrow, period. While I would love to see DL do JFK-LGW, the real money has always been at LHR. Do love the speculation though.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:29 am

It may be the case that UA could sell LHR to Delta but they would need to sell all the rights not just certain routes. And lord know that's not going to happen.
 
Humberside
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting Nycfly75 (Thread starter):
Any chance DL can buy the UAL LHR slots?

They would have to buy them all and UA have to leave LHR in order to gain LHR acccess at the moment, which isnt going to happen because:

DL couldnt afford to
UA wont be leaving LHR any time soon
There could be EU-US open skies very soon
Visit the Air Humberside Website and Forum
 
USPIT10L
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 6):
The slots were sold because AA and UA were the "logical" successors to TW and PA, respectively. It was and is a very controversial issue. Read Hard Landing by Thomas Petzinger,Jr. Very good read.

Correction. PA sold their LHR access because they were extremely short on cash at the time. TW sold theirs just because Icahan was an idiot. UA and AA were allowed to purchase the slots, but at a high price. There is no way UA would give up LHR-JFK. Granted, their presence at JFK is not very big, but the prestige of flying such a run is enormous. We could start another thread about UA and JFK, but that's been said and done more times than I can count here.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 8):
DL couldnt afford to

More like they would not be permitted while operating under Chapter 11.

Delta has 2.5 Billion in unrestricted cash. Saying they can't afford it while other airlines could is not correct. Delta size for size has just as much unrestricted cash as your average US airline.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 8):
They would have to buy them all and UA have to leave LHR in order to gain LHR acccess at the moment, which isnt going to happen because:

DL couldnt afford to
UA wont be leaving LHR any time soon
There could be EU-US open skies very soon

While DL may not be buying UA's LHR slots, I'm a betting man and will say DL will be at LHR, operating in and out of T4 within 5 years with at least 2x daily to both JFK and LHR.

Interesting times in the near future.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
nycfly75
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:39 am

T

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 6):
Read Hard Landing by Thomas Petzinger,Jr. Very good read.

Ok i'll definitely pick the book up..Thanks. Correct me if Im wrong...doesnt CO fly EWR-LGW, and if so how do they do on it. LGW could provide good connections to Euro Skyteam Partners for DL.
 
Humberside
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 10):
Delta has 2.5 Billion in unrestricted cash. Saying they can't afford it while other airlines could is not correct. Delta size for size has just as much unrestricted cash as your average US airline.

If they have 2.5 billion in cash why are they in Chapter 11?

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 12):
LGW could provide good connections to Euro Skyteam Partners for DL.

Not really. Considering hardly any European SkyTeam members serve LGW and those that do often serve secondary destinations, there would be very limited feed
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AeroWesty
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 4):
Hmm was there a change in the treaty?..how did Pan Am and TWA sell these same rights to AA and UA?

Just as a point of clarity, at the time of the 1991 acquisition of PA/TW routes to Heathrow by UA/AA, VS was given the right to fly from Heathrow to the U.S. I would put odds on that for another route sale to take place would be to the detriment of either U.S. carrier not involved in the sale, and pressure brought to reject it. Icahn was for the PA sale so he could sell TW's routes too, and I'd gather he didn't care if another carrier got rights as a result, as long as he was able to line his own pockets.
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rjpieces
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:55 am

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 2):
disagree with your opinion that DL cant come close or be at JFK what CO is at EWR. Perhaps right now there are certain infrastructure limitations. But if a new terminal comes about down the road, you can have a mega skyteam hub at JFK with DL doing a nice sized domestic feeder operation into JFK for O&D as well as to feed its major international operation, as well as its sky team partners. JFK can become America's Skyteam Fortress over time. Especially if UA and CO merge, this has a greater chance of happening with EWR being a Star Super Hub and JFK a SKyteam super hub.

Disagree. EWR is a superhub because it has the ability to be a strong domestic and international hub for a market including New York City and New Jersey. JFK will never have the type of service that LGA has--multiple hourly flights to ORD,DCA,BOS, etc. If LGA ever closed for some reason, then JFK would see a huge increase on traffic but so would EWR (in the form of larger aircraft probably).

In short, CO has a very unique combination that allows EWR to be so successful. Short of some massive changes in the region, JFK will never become that.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
DLPMMM
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting Humberside (Reply 13):
If they have 2.5 billion in cash why are they in Chapter 11?

Because they have USD$18 Billion in Debt and their debts are greater than their assets (leading to negative stockholder equity and Chapter 11).

Quoting Humberside (Reply 13):
Not really. Considering hardly any European SkyTeam members serve LGW and those that do often serve secondary destinations, there would be very limited feed

I agree with you on this. LGW (and LHR for that matter) will always be a primarily O & D market for Skyteam airlines.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:10 am

CO gets about 25% higher revenue on its EWRLGW route than UA gets on JFKLHR. In fact, DL and CO both get better revenue into LGW from EWR,ATL, and CVG than UA does from JFK or ORD. LHR is not the panacea or guarantee for revenue that alot of people think it is nor is LGW necessarily a sentence to lose money.

I do not believe DL could serve JFKLGW right now because LGW and LHR are both limited access airports under Bermuda 2, the treaty that governs US-UK aviation. In addition to designating what cities can have service to LGW and LHR, Bermuda 2 also has capacity limits which cap the number of flights in a market even if a carrier holds enough slots to add more flights. While I do not know the specific numbers, I do not believe there is capacity in the JFK-London authority (which covers LHR and LGW) to allow DL to begin service to LGW. EWR is governed by a separate section but CO is still limited to its current 2 flights/day.

It is not certain that an EU-US open skies agreement will be passed. The US Congress just passed a measure to limit the DOT's ability to change foreign ownership regulations which is what the EU is demanding in return for providing open skies to US airlines - what would be necessary to open LHR. Given the anti-foreign investor mindset in the US and in other western countries (remember the Dubai Ports flap which was an issue in both the US and UK), it is possible there will be no immediate open skies deal or increased access to LHR.

If I'm wrong and DL is able and does begin service JFKLGW, they will be essentially giving up on the argument that you have to serve LHR to make money. That doesn't mean that they won't get there but I happen to believe it will happen when they buy UA. If DL's turnaround continues at the pace it has gone so far and UA continues to struggle to turn itself around, DL could well become the most profitable airline in the US and in a position to acquire when consolidation comes. Given UA's presence in Asia, it's access to LHR, and its presence in Chicago and the west coast where DL is weak, I can't help but think DL will be acquiring and that UA will be DL's preferred carrier.

So, yes, I think DL will eventually be in LHR but it may not happen until DL acquires substantially all of UA's assets - and that may not happen before UA files for bankruptcy again, something that could well happen in the next 5 years.
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:18 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
So, yes, I think DL will eventually be in LHR but it may not happen until DL acquires substantially all of UA's assets -

Before we make such predictions, lets see DL get itself out of bankruptcy first. I wish DL the best....but so much of this is nothing more than delusions of grandeur. Didnt DL just ask for a futher delay from the bankruptcy court? Suggesting that DL will be in the position to purchase UA at this point in time is an over-the-top prediction.

Since DL purchased the Pan Am assets, we have seen several expansions and contractions of DL operations at JFK - lets first see how this works out and what routes DL is flying in the coming seasons before we get overexcited at the airlines opportunities at JFK.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
CO gets about 25% higher revenue on its EWRLGW route than UA gets on JFKLHR. In fact, DL and CO both get better revenue into LGW from EWR,ATL, and CVG than UA does from JFK or ORD. LHR is not the panacea or guarantee for revenue that alot of people think it is nor is LGW necessarily a sentence to lose money.

What you're saying is that there's been a sea change of how people travel to London from the U.S. in the past few years. You might want to read this:

http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/public/comments/9712.htm#IIIB2

The link takes you to the section entitled Service to Heathrow Continues to Be in a Separate Market for Business Passengers, and makes the case for why airlines that have served LHR and LGW from the same gateways, have quickly dropped LGW and retained LHR service.
International Homo of Mystery
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:24 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
do not believe DL could serve JFKLGW right now because LGW and LHR are both limited access airports under Bermuda 2, the treaty that governs US-UK aviation. In addition to designating what cities can have service to LGW and LHR, Bermuda 2 also has capacity limits which cap the number of flights in a market even if a carrier holds enough slots to add more flights. While I do not know the specific numbers, I do not believe there is capacity in the JFK-London authority (which covers LHR and LGW) to allow DL to begin service to LGW. EWR is governed by a separate section but CO is still limited to its current 2 flights/day.

CO is flying three EWR-LGW flights per day on certain days of the week this summer.

DL probably could start JFK-LGW if it wanted to......but I would be surprised if DL were to try this after their bad experience with the BOS-LGW route. DL would have a tough time making JFK-LGW work with so many flights available from JFK to Heathrow. Several airlines, including BA, have operated JFK-LGW without success.

I do think that DL (and CO) will find their way into LHR.......simply because at some point Bermuda 2 must be modified or re-written.
 
USPIT10L
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:28 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
Before we make such predictions, lets see DL get itself out of bankruptcy first. I wish DL the best....but so much of this is nothing more than delusions of grandeur. Didnt DL just ask for a futher delay from the bankruptcy court? Suggesting that DL will be in the position to purchase UA at this point in time is an over-the-top prediction.

Since DL purchased the Pan Am assets, we have seen several expansions and contractions of DL operations at JFK - lets first see how this works out and what routes DL is flying in the coming seasons before we get overexcited at the airlines opportunities at JFK.

I agree. Let's wait and see what DL has in mind before we start spinning our own ideas around.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
Before we make such predictions, lets see DL get itself out of bankruptcy first

"let see if Delta gets out of Chapter 11 first?" Who's being over the top here?


The April report is there for all to see. The CFO and COO have said things like "numbers coming out that will drop people's jaws" , JFK routes doing "well beyond expectations". "rasm 6% below industry average" The extension means nothing other than more time to get costs even lower. The lenders wanted the extension as well and it would be out of the ordinary not to ask for more time.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 22):
"let see if Delta gets out of Chapter 11 first?"

You added the "if", which changes the meaning of Dutchjet's earlier comment. Bad form. *Buzzer*
International Homo of Mystery
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:41 am

aerowesty you are correct I did add that after pasting his exact quote. So my mistake. The fact remains. There is no possiblity of Delta going Chapter 7. None. So discussing what they will do in the future as a fully functional airline is not beyond the pale.

[Edited 2006-06-18 20:43:32]
 
COfaninBOS
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:43 am

I don't care what the CFO and COO at Delta have stated to the public. Haven't the last 10 years in this country made you wary of listening to the people at the top?

Actions speak louder than words and right now the actions are; STILL IN BANKRUPTCY, asked for an extension, terminating pilot's pension plan, etc, etc, etc...

But, apparently those things are just small little bumps in the road and DL is currently in talks to buy 757s from AA and thinking about buying (insert airline de jour here)...
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 24):
aerowesty you are correct I did add that after pasting his exact quote. So my mistake. The fact remains. There is no possiblity of Delta going Chapter 7. None. So discussing what they will do in the future as a fully functional airline is not beyond the pale.

[Edited 2006-06-18 20:43:32]

1. I never suggested that DL will go Chapter 7, those are your words.....but before DL can take over the world, it must get itself out of Chapter 11 and the jurisdiction of the bankruptcy court. Things are going better for DL (honestly, they could not get much worse) and thats a good thing, but there are still many challenges for DL to overcome. Dont forget that DL still has a sticky issue to resolve with its pilots concerning the termination of their pension plan.....if the plan goes, it seems that many of the pilots will also go, so who is going to fly all of those airplanes.

2. Over-the-top? Yes, the idea of DL buying all of UA's assests out of a second UA bankruptcy is an over-the-top suggestion at this point in time (please take a look at what I actually said)....DL is still sitting with almost $20 billion in debt, remains in bankrupcty court, still has more liabilities than assets, everything DL owns is mortgaged to secure their debt, and DL will need to start thinking about fleet renewal in the medium term future......it is over-the-top to even suggest that DL is or, in the near-term future, will be in the position to buy UA's assets out of a bankrupcty (and why assume that UA will be re-filing?).
 
nycfly75
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:55 am

Well heres the Bermuda II Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bermuda_II

---On the idea of a UA-DL merger, that would be interesting, as their respective route networks wont overlap..

Delta:

Europe/East Coast/Florida

United:
Asia/West Coast/Midwest


Hubs:

Chicago, Atlanta, San Francisco, NY-JFK, Denver, Narita

Focus:
IAD, SLC

DeHubbed: CVG
 
Avatordon
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:31 am

In this entire thread about DL, there's been a lot of talk about CO at EWR, and the inability for JFK to be a hub. There hasn't been any mention though about AA and their massive new terminal at JFK which would appear to be ideal for a hub-type operation when it is completed.

AA has always been a much stronger presence in NYC than DL. Between the dominance of the AAdvantage program, the link w/Citibank, and their strong relationship w/the corporations in the NY metro area, I have to wonder if they may end up expanding at some point from JFK.

They already have Transcon, some domestic, LatAm, Caribbean, NRT, LHR, ZRH, BRU, as well as some other, albeit seasonal, operations to Europe. It would seem that they would be a more logical candidate for JFK expansion then DL.
 
by738
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:38 am

So other DL UK routes from JFK are still on the cards ?
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting Avatordon (Reply 28):
In this entire thread about DL, there's been a lot of talk about CO at EWR, and the inability for JFK to be a hub. There hasn't been any mention though about AA and their massive new terminal at JFK which would appear to be ideal for a hub-type operation when it is completed.

AA has always been a much stronger presence in NYC than DL. Between the dominance of the AAdvantage program, the link w/Citibank, and their strong relationship w/the corporations in the NY metro area, I have to wonder if they may end up expanding at some point from JFK.

They already have Transcon, some domestic, LatAm, Caribbean, NRT, LHR, ZRH, BRU, as well as some other, albeit seasonal, operations to Europe. It would seem that they would be a more logical candidate for JFK expansion then DL.

You raise a good point, also consider that AA took over TWA which had a hub/gateway operation at JFK for years and years.

AA does have a considerable operation at JFK and is a leading carrier with pax in the greater NYC area, but AA does not really seem interested in turning JFK into a hub operation. Even when there was talk about AA launching new routes from JFK to Europe (remember JFK-NCL that was announced but pulled) the emphasis was on O&D traffic. A lot has to do with AA's very strong presence at LGA and AA's choice not to go into competiton with itself, part of the reasoning must be that JetBlue is a major player at JFK and why should AA get into a contest with a LCC, and lastly, AA does just fine with the way things are and is not looking for another hub....JFK will continue to be O&D with some connection posssibilities, and thats it.

Consider that AA downsized the new terminal at JFK - originally, is was to have many more gates.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:48 am

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 25):
Actions speak louder than words and right now the actions are; STILL IN BANKRUPTCY, asked for an extension, terminating pilot's pension plan, etc, etc, etc...

Where the heck did you hear this? Asked for an extension? In bankruptcy? For your information, DL has not needed to "ask for an extension" as you put it. They have had a set target for emergence since the beginning, and that has not changed. The restructuring plan DL has in place was already assembled before DL declared BK(as a "just in case" point) and is performing as expected. And I like how you mention STILL IN BANKRUPTCY, as if they have been there for long. It hasn't even been a year, Cinderella, and this isn't United. DL will not go in and out like US Airways Part I, nor will they drag it out for 3 years, a la United(although wouldn't be a bad idea). Delta will spend only the amount of time needed in bankruptcy to get their company straight, but also be prepared for sustained profitability in the long run. Oh, and about the pilots pension plan, you can thank UA and US for that. Once they did it, everyone else will need to. Trust me, within 10 years, no airline will have pension plan's because of that. Take it to the bank.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:53 am

On this past Wednesday, Delta asked for a four month delay to file its reorganization plan (this is the second delay that DL has requested)....that being said, DL also stated that it still plans to be out of bankruptcy by th end of the 1st quarter of 2007.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 32):
On this past Wednesday, Delta asked for a four month delay to file its reorganization plan (this is the second delay that DL has requested)....that being said, DL also stated that it still plans to be out of bankruptcy by th end of the 1st quarter of 2007.

Yes they filed a delay on the reorganization plan. Given constant market changes, they're looking at a number of items that shift as they put their plan together. DL is interested in ensuring shareholders (ie. Amex and GE) are in approval of a reorg plan that aims for sustained profitability that will enable DL to not only get out of Chap 11, but also be geared toward success in the future.

That being said, I wish they would release May's numbers so we can see whether the strike affected bookings or not as well as whether the plan is on track.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
dl757md
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting COfaninBOS (Reply 25):
Actions speak louder than words and right now the actions are; STILL IN BANKRUPTCY, asked for an extension, terminating pilot's pension plan, etc, etc, etc...

Still in bankruptcy? Yes. Doing an outstanding job at turning things around in bankruptcy? Yes.

Asked for an extension? Yes. Was driven by creditors and the company alike to insure successful exit.

Terminating pilots pension? Yes. See here for an explanation as to why this is a very prudent business decision that was necessary to ensure the stability of Delta.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 26):
Dont forget that DL still has a sticky issue to resolve with its pilots concerning the termination of their pension plan.....if the plan goes, it seems that many of the pilots will also go, so who is going to fly all of those airplanes.

The whole point of terminating the pilots pension plan was to prevent a mass exodus of pilots. See the above link.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting Nycfly75 (Thread starter):
Anyway, Im happy DL is expanding the way they are at JFK, im especially excited about LGW service by DL from JFK.

The destinations Delta is adding have not been released, only speclulated. LGW is not guaranteed to be one of them.
a.
 
Avatordon
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:45 am

Dutchjet, thanks for the reply. I knew that AA wanted to postpone aspects of their terminal, but wasn't aware that they had reduced gate amount. Do you know what it is now versus what it was initially planned for?
 
B707Stu
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:11 am

Quoting Nycfly75 (Reply 2):
I disagree with your opinion that DL cant come close or be at JFK what CO is at EWR. Perhaps right now there are certain infrastructure limitations. But if a new terminal comes about down the road, you can have a mega skyteam hub at JFK with DL doing a nice sized domestic feeder operation into JFK for O&D as well as to feed its major international operation, as well as its sky team partners. JFK can become America's Skyteam Fortress over time. Especially if UA and CO merge, this has a greater chance of happening with EWR being a Star Super Hub and JFK a SKyteam super hub.

It sort of amazes and mystifies me that DL will end up with such a large JFK International business. Let's remember this was Pan Am's terminal and back in the day they only were allowed international travel. Kharma?
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:23 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 15):
EWR is a superhub because it has the ability to be a strong domestic and international hub for a market including New York City and New Jersey.

Here we go again... Super Hub, Mega Hub, Ultra Hub, World hub

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 15):
JFK will never have the type of service that LGA has--multiple hourly flights to ORD,DCA,BOS, etc.

Ever heard of AA, DL, B6... Look at their schedules from JFK!  wink 
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:33 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 15):
EWR is a superhub because it has the ability to be a strong domestic and international hub for a market

Super hub. Maybe in CO's world but compared to the rest of the USA I can only think of 2 real SUPER hubs, those being DL's ATL and AA's DFW. All the rest are just hubs.

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 15):
In short, CO has a very unique combination that allows EWR to be so successful. Short of some massive changes in the region, JFK will never become that.

I'm not so sure. EWR has got serious runway issues hence CO's miserable on-time performance.
 
rjpieces
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 39):
Super hub. Maybe in CO's world but compared to the rest of the USA I can only think of 2 real SUPER hubs, those being DL's ATL and AA's DFW. All the rest are just hubs.

Sure EWR is nothing next to ATL and DFW in terms of aircraft movements...But EWR is by far the best strategically placed hub in the country. There are countless routes that can be served from EWR that ATL and DFW would never in a million years get.

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 39):
I'm not so sure. EWR has got serious runway issues hence CO's miserable on-time performance.

Saying EWR has runway issues doesn't imply that JFK will develop into a EWR-like hub.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:08 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 40):
There are countless routes that can be served from EWR that ATL and DFW would never in a million years get.

Can you name a few?

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 40):
Saying EWR has runway issues doesn't imply that JFK will develop into a EWR-like hub.

I'm not sure of the numbers but I pretty sure JFK is a busier airport in terms of passengers than EWR and getting bigger all the time with less infrastructure constraints.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:08 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 32):
On this past Wednesday, Delta asked for a four month delay to file its reorganization plan (this is the second delay that DL has requested)....that being said, DL also stated that it still plans to be out of bankruptcy by th end of the 1st quarter of 2007.

Yes, a delay to file the reorganization plan, but that has not changed the time frame of when DL will exit bankruptcy.


A rumor circulating through DL is that the delay to file is due to "competitive reasons." Not sure how accurate or true that could be, but it would make sense in this industry. You don't want the competition to have time to build up against you.




OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:10 am

Its amazing how every discussion about DL at JFK results in people attacking CO's huge success at EWR....its almost as if the DL gang is obsessed with CO's operation at EWR. Is it because CO has achieved at EWR what DL could not do at JFK?

Since 1992, DL has grown and reduced its JFK operation - international ops were added, flights were dropped, domestic feed was added, domestic cities were dropped, Song came and went, DL Connection regional services came and went, etc. etc. At one point, DL was even considering building BOS into an international gateway....almost forgetting that it already had the key gateway at JFK. Lets face it, DL history at JFK since the Pan Am deal has been inconsistent and curious.

Fast forward to the present, and DL is now getting excited about JFK again opening up lots and lots of new routes. There is already talk about more expansion when some of the new routes have only been operating for a few days. Lets all wait until the end of the summer season and see how Delta really did at JFK and if they are commited to, and can financially afford, to operated all of the new international services. I am skeptical, and if I am proved wrong, fine, but lets wait and see.

And, while DL has been repeatedly adding and reducing service at JFK, CO built EWR into a worldclass hub and international gateway......its as simple as that.
 
rjpieces
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:12 am

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 41):
Can you name a few?

Hong Kong, Beijing, Delhi, all of the 757 "regional European" routes...

Quoting DL Widget Head (Reply 41):
I'm not sure of the numbers but I pretty sure JFK is a busier airport in terms of passengers than EWR and getting bigger all the time with less infrastructure constraints.

JFK is busier than EWR because of jetBlue's extraordinary growth.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
dutchjet
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:16 am

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 42):
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 32):
On this past Wednesday, Delta asked for a four month delay to file its reorganization plan (this is the second delay that DL has requested)....that being said, DL also stated that it still plans to be out of bankruptcy by th end of the 1st quarter of 2007.



Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 42):
Yes, a delay to file the reorganization plan, but that has not changed the time frame of when DL will exit bankruptcy

Isnt that what I said - the plan is delayed but DL still plans to exit bankruptcy during the 1st quarter of 2007? Why quote something if you have not read what is says?
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 40):
But EWR is by far the best strategically placed hub in the country.

Huh? Ever heard of Dallas. DFW, Denver, Chicago. ORD, Houston. IAH?

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 40):
There are countless routes that can be served from EWR that ATL and DFW would never in a million years get.

Like Moscow, Athens, Dakar, Venice, Munich, Istanbul, Caracas, Rio de Janeiro, Seoul, Santiago, Nice, Sacramento, Oakland, Burbank, Ontario, Tucson, and Reno? What was that about EWR and a million years?

Just Wondering...  wink 
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
rjpieces
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 46):
Huh? Ever heard of Dallas. DFW, Denver, Chicago. ORD, Houston. IAH?

None of these can compete with the advantage that CO and EWR have in catering to the NYC market, which is by far the most important market in the country.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
DL WIDGET HEAD
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 44):
Hong Kong, Beijing, Delhi, all of the 757 "regional European" routes...

So, these are the routes that you submit that never in a million years would be served from ATL or DFW. You're just naming routes that are currently not served from ATL or DFW. I can name routes served from ATL that are not served from EWR too...SCL, GIG, SVO, MGA, ETC..

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 43):
Its amazing how every discussion about DL at JFK results in people attacking CO's huge success at EWR....its almost as if the DL gang is obsessed with CO's operation at EWR.

Who's attacking? Who's obsessed? I was merely responding to some of RJpieces comments and not in a beligerent manner.

[Edited 2006-06-19 02:42:25]

[Edited 2006-06-19 02:44:02]
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: DL To Announce More JFK Service--Part II

Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:30 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 47):
None of these can compete with the advantage that CO and EWR have in catering to the NYC market, which is by far the most important market in the country.

Funny, your original response said nothing of New York ..

See Below..

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 40):
But EWR is by far the best strategically placed hub in the country.
TO FLY IS TO SERVE

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