cedars747
Posts: 2584
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 8:04 am

Air France Legal Action Against Ryanair

Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:25 am

Air France has lodget a complaint with French civil court Conseil D'etat against Marseille Provence Airport's new low-cost terminal,which is to became
a base for Ryanair in 2006
Ryanair desided to open a base at Marseille after the Airport launched a USD 19.1 million project to redevelop it's existing freight facility into a low-cost terminal.The carrier plans to base two aircraft at the airport as of November 2006 and open 13 new routes.
Air France sees that with this type of practice,low-cost airlines are being financed by general companies.Whereas,Ryanair declared it will now file a further complaint against Air France with the European commission on the basis of an abuse of dominance under European competision rules,in addition to the airport fees complaints it lodget with regulators in May 2006
Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion /لدي شغف للطيران / I have a passion for aviation /Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart/ J'ai une passion pour l'aviation.
 
Beaucaire
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: Air France Legal Action Against Ryanair

Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:43 am

Air France did not complain when the french tax-payers had to bail them out in the late 80's for 10 billion FF.....
All due respect for the great company in Paris,but they live a little bit too long in an extremely protected envirenment and should learn to accept some needed competition.They offer literally no direct european flights from Marseille-so where's the problem ????

[Edited 2006-06-18 20:49:54]
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smokeyrosco
Posts: 1441
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RE: Air France Legal Action Against Ryanair

Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:06 am

This has been posted before also.
John Hancock
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Air France Legal Action Against Ryanair

Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:07 am

The airports should be doing whatever they can to reduce the costs of ALL airlines, If Marseille can give a break to FR, they most certainly can give a break to AF, BA, etc, etc.

I believe the complaint is not against Ryanair, but agains the airport.
 
AirNZ
Posts: 544
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2005 6:03 pm

RE: Air France Legal Action Against Ryanair

Mon Jun 19, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 3):
The airports should be doing whatever they can to reduce the costs of ALL airlines, If Marseille can give a break to FR, they most certainly can give a break to AF, BA, etc, etc.

I disagree in that it is specifically a Low-Cost terminal.......and if AF, BA or any other wish to fly from it they would be entitled to the same benefits as FR. It's exactly the same concept as the new LCT at Singapore Changi which was exclusively designed and meant for LCC's.
This is typical Air France though.....happily accept govt subsidies for years, but complain/take legal action when something doesn't suit them financially.
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Beaucaire
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RE: Air France Legal Action Against Ryanair

Mon Jun 19, 2006 2:54 pm

Nothing prevents Air France to shift it's Marseille - Paris shuttle service to the new low-cost terminal and enjoy the same lower tariff's...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3700
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

RE: Air France Legal Action Against Ryanair

Mon Jun 19, 2006 3:37 pm

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 5):

Other than being "newer," is there anything specific about this new terminal that makes it better suited to LCCs ? I can't imagine what it would be, but I thought I'd ask.
Democracy 2016: 3 million California votes < 100,000 Midwest votes.
 
RJ100
Posts: 3895
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2000 1:37 am

RE: Air France Legal Action Against Ryanair

Mon Jun 19, 2006 4:14 pm

Low cost carriers benefit from a different (lower) tariff because they need less services (no docks etc.). But this is not everything. If an airport has more passengers, it can split its general costs much better. In fact, also the legacy carriers benefit from that in the end.

The European commission clearly stated that airports are allowed to offer a reduced tariff to certain customers who generate a certain volume. The European commission supports low fare airlines and they support that airports want to use unused airport facilities (if you don't use them the tax payer simply needs to pay for it anyway...).

Face the truth, Air France is just bitching against the low fare carriers because they fear competition- an airline which failed to offer direct and affordable flights from Marseille and all the other places other than Paris and Lyon.

Regards,
RJ100
none
 
Pihero
Posts: 4232
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Air France Legal Action Against Ryanair

Mon Jun 19, 2006 5:40 pm

The diligent from Beaucaire strikes again !
And with the same arguments :subsidies and government help and dominant position...etc...Wonder why you never raised the conditions of BA's privatisation or never bitched on the Chapter 11 which serves most of the US airlines and distorts the competition ?
As for competition, Air France does not "fear " Ryanair or its likes. The competition is the TGV as a few have discovered to their detriment (and by the way, I've never heard you complain about the way the TGV is subsidised,either).
just take a look at the AF results summary and future plans (adopted and accepted by all shareholders) and you'll see the fallacy of your argument.
But I think that's too much asking from you.
Contrail designer
 
Beaucaire
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Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: Air France Legal Action Against Ryanair

Mon Jun 19, 2006 6:28 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 8):
But I think that's too much asking from you.

I do not complain about the TGV infrastructure because each country has an obligation to provide basic road and rail infrastructure to it's citizens.
That this infrastructure is paid by tax-payers money seems legitimate.
TGV is indeed a great competitor for Air France domestic flights (and flights to London or Brussles ) but the issue is not exclusively tied to the TGV offer.
Airports like Marseille,Nice ,Montpellier or Bordeaux have quite a good offer on Air France flights to Paris (ORY and CDG) but no good and competetive flights to other european destinations .The principe of feeding a hub is logic and makes sense for Air France to fill their planes .But when I have to fly first one hour up north to Paris,change plane,fly back another two hours south from Paris to Madrid instead of flying directly from Montpellier or Marseille to Madrid- it's an expensive way to transport passengers.
Hub operations are fully justified and neccessary to fill long-haul networks and longer medium-distance flight ! Fully agreed on this -but short,close neighbour-country flights are useless if the hubfeeder-flight is longer than the direct flight.
The low-costs do develop passenger streams that were inexistant before and do it point to point-which obviously attracts the passengers since they save time and money.
Bordeaux has since two years a service called "porte iberique" with flights to Spain and Portugal which is a positive developpement but not enough and to focussed on Spain exclusively.
Who would have though there would be demand for flights from say -Charleroi to Nîmes...???? Now all the flights on Ryanair are full and passengers pay more than just the famous 29 € plus taxes -the average yield on these new routes would indicate there is room for Air France to introduce economically viable fights to province-towns.But you don't want to do it because it does not fit your business -model . So let others do it without complaining about airport charges!
And what is true for Nîmes is also true for Marseille.
So Since Air France never would think of putting up new liaisions between say MRS and DUB or MRS and IST- what's the problem ?
And the argument that Air France is offering also low-fare tickets is true and false- true in the proper sense that if you book well ahead in time and stay long enough (over weekend) you get cheap tickets to european destinations.
But try tickets within the same week-without saturday night- you end up with ridicoulous fares.
You seem not to accept any critic towards Air France since you are most likely flying for them- great -I have never ever critizised Air France for their lack of performance,service ,safety or management - but I do critizise them for their attitude against anything that comes even close to challenge their thurst for monopoly in french airtransport.
Lufthansa which is in a similar dominant position in Germany, has no problem with accepting competing airlines in Germany .
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
FlyDeltaJets
Posts: 1635
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: Air France Legal Action Against Ryanair

Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:09 pm

Quoting Smokeyrosco (Reply 2):
This has been posted before also.

To me that's more annoying than seeing a topic discussed again.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4050
Joined: Sun May 29, 2005 6:48 am

RE: Air France Legal Action Against Ryanair

Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 8):
And with the same arguments :subsidies and government help and dominant position...etc...Wonder why you never raised the conditions of BA's privatisation or never bitched on the Chapter 11 which serves most of the US airlines and distorts the competition ?

= Irrelevant to the discussion at hand. BEAUCAIRE was responding to current topic at hand and brings up excellent and valid points.

Cheers,
A.
Live, and let live.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4232
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Air France Legal Action Against Ryanair

Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:52 am

To the diligent from Beaucaire :
Funny how in the same breath you can open a real insight into a situation and close it through prejudice-blindness :
The only threat Ryanair would pose for Air France will be for the trans-Med traffis, i.e. between france and north Africa.And that's where the fight is going to be.
As for liaisons between Provence-Côte d'Azur and the spanish riviera, you're just dreaming, these two regions offer basically the same opprtunities and services and I don't see for the foreseeable future an airline opening that sort of traffic.
now for the subsidies.So it's ok to subsidise the TGV but not air connections ? Strange reasoning, especially after I saw some posts about public service obligations, in France or in Italy...
And please, don't play the innocent : Charleroi-Nîmes is a misnomer for Brussels-Marseille, though i agree that LCCs have opened a brand new market for air travel

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 9):
And the argument that Air France is offering also low-fare tickets is true and false- true in the proper sense that if you book well ahead in time and stay long enough (over weekend) you get cheap tickets to european destinations.
But try tickets within the same week-without saturday night- you end up with ridicoulous fares.

The same argument goes for everybody, including Ryanair. just for sheer curiosity, I made a booking search for July between Paris and Marseille, tried for some four weeks'notice (Ryanair clients do that regularly) and lo and behold, the AF offers were on the 17 JUl week 48 euros. the return flights were at 49 € everyday except on Sunday when it is at 66€.
So much for ridiculous fares.And by the way, AF don't add taxes on these prices.And they don't ask the airports to pay for their advertising or a fee for each passenger they carry.
And while we're on this subject, yes, I do resent that irish airline pisking up pax traffic in this country just because they are operating in a legal void : no taxes, no social charges, no professional obligation for cabin crew licences.... very easy, isn't it ? I have a lot more respect for EasyJet who play the rules.
So please don't lecture me on fair competition, that word sounds here like an obscenity.
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