leelaw
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Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:19 pm

Flight International, 20 June 2006 by Andrew Doyle

FI is reporting that: "Boeing is studying the possibility of lengthening its 747-8 Intercontinental aircraft in response to requests from some airlines [primarily Asian carriers also evaluating the A380] for additional capacity.

The article doesn't report how much of a "stretch/lengthening" is being contemplated.

Perhaps the A350/370 design imbroglio means the basic concepts and specifications of "launched" programs will be routinely challenged by customers henceforth?
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DeltaWings
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:27 pm

They may lengthen it to the length of the 747-8F. That would make sense though.
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DAL767400ER
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:31 pm

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 1):
They may lengthen it to the length of the 747-8F. That would make sense though.

Indeed, that would be the most logical thing to do, as that would probably also simplify production.
 
centrair
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Mon Jun 19, 2006 8:32 pm

Even if they lengthened it to the length of the cargo version, would it be enough? Would they have to extend the hump more?

[Edited 2006-06-19 13:34:31]
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SFORunner
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:13 pm

Maybe Boeing could re-configure the "Sky Suites" area as a day care / seating area for small children. This crowd wouldn't care at all about headroom / legroom .

This would open up more space for "full sized" pax on the main deck.

 stirthepot   stirthepot   stirthepot 
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:36 pm

Changing the length to match the size of the freighter would be logical. But how many more seats would it really add to the aircraft? What kind of CASM would it have ve the A-380 800 & 900 then??
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Zone1
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:45 pm

Quoting SFORunner (Reply 4):
Maybe Boeing could re-configure the "Sky Suites" area as a day care / seating area for small children. This crowd wouldn't care at all about headroom / legroom .

This would open up more space for "full sized" pax on the main deck.

I don't think they can use the sky suites as seating during take off and landing. There are no exit doors in this area.
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ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Mon Jun 19, 2006 9:51 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 5):
Changing the length to match the size of the freighter would be logical. But how many more seats would it really add to the aircraft?

25.

Would make a standardized spec of 475.

In real world applications, you would see 410-425 seats on most 3 class carriers, with a BA having less.

But what does that do to range...
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mush
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting SFORunner (Reply 4):
Maybe Boeing could re-configure the "Sky Suites" area as a day care / seating area for small children. This crowd wouldn't care at all about headroom / legroom .

This would open up more space for "full sized" pax on the main deck.

hahaha...also, it would get rid of the pain-in-the-butt kid that's always kicking my seat.

Would it make sense for Boeing to offer the 747 in two sizes? What I mean is should Boeing offer a 747-8i sized the same as a 747-400 and also offer a 747-8i sized as it currently is or bigger? I can't beleive that all 747-400 operators want a plane that is stretched compared to their current fleet. What other four engined choice do these operators have?

Thanks for the replies...
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ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:35 pm

Quoting Mush (Reply 8):
What I mean is should Boeing offer a 747-8i sized the same as a 747-400 and also offer a 747-8i sized as it currently is or bigger?

It might. I thought they might do this from the start. 415 seat 747-7 and 475 seat 747-8 both with the same wing and engines and other interior enhancements.

At that point the 787/777/747 range covers: 220 seats, 260 seats, 305 seats, 360 seats, 415 seats, 475 seats...

The only issue is the CASM of the 747-7 wouldn't be so great, same as the problem they are seeing now with the 772ER compared to the 787 and 773ER.
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CM767
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:45 pm

Quoting Mush (Reply 8):
Would it make sense for Boeing to offer the 747 in two sizes? What I mean is should Boeing offer a 747-8i sized the same as a 747-400 and also offer a 747-8i sized as it currently is or bigger? I can't believe that all 747-400 operators want a plane that is stretched compared to their current fleet. What other four engined choice do these operators have?

Thanks for the replies...

Initially I had the same fought , but I believe that Boeing promised the same operational cost for the 8I that they have with the 400. I only see a problem with lengthening the 8I , it probably would need a engine different to the 8F.

Something for sure would be that the gap between the 787-9/10 would be filled in the future with Y3, I can't wait to see the largest twin ever!

Boeing redefined the industry, and I have the strong believe that the name of the Game for now on would be called CASM, a similar version of the 8i, probable would not be as attractive because of this.
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mptpa
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Mon Jun 19, 2006 10:58 pm

They will need to wait and see what the available engine choice(s) would be and the associated fuel burn. Unless they opt to go with composite structures a la B787, but this would be a huge developmental expenditure as well as tooling. The current autoclave would need to be much bigger mainly for the humped areas incl Section 41.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting CM767 (Reply 10):
Initially I had the same fought , but I believe that Boeing promised the same operational cost for the 8I that they have with the 400. I only see a problem with lengthening the 8I , it probably would need a engine different to the 8F.

New engines should not be necessary unless they are planing on increasing MTOW. Airlines may want better capacity rather than range in this high fuel cost environment. But the GEnx engines for the 748 are not at the top of the thrust levels for the family so they might be able to uprate it.
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Johnny
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:41 pm

The question is, will there be two versions of new 747 or only just only stretched B748I ?

Probably they are not facing demand from asian customers only, but also would like to improve the operating cost with that little trick...

Never mind, that is a good idea, because it really shows two things:

1. Boeing can build a real 450-seater with comparable comfort with the A380 and B773ER in 550 and 350 config.

2. Boeing was wrong in its thinking that airplanes will be smaller in average than today on longhaul-flights.The opposite seems to be true.More and more airlines are either ordering B773ER, the bigger version of the B787 or are showing interest in airplanes like a stretched B748I.

I think that airplane could be damn interesting and could cause Airbus a huge headache...
 
zvezda
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Mon Jun 19, 2006 11:59 pm

It doesn't necessarily make sense to lengthen the B747-8I to the same length as the B747-8F. The reason is that even if they were the same length overall, the B747-8I would be longer aft of the wing and the B747-8F would be longer forward of the wing due to balance requirements.

This may be a response to Boeing's announcement that the B747-8I will have 8300nm range rather than the earlier predicted 8000nm range. Airlines in Asia may prefer to give up some range in order to lower CASM. They may also desire closer competition between the SuperJumbo and the WhaleJet in order to put more price pressure on both.
 
kaitak
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:14 am

Frankly, I never could understand why they didn't do this in the first place. It always seemed a bit odd that they could stretch the freighter, not the pax acft (yes, I know it is stretched versus the -400, but not to the same extent).

The capacity gain over the -400 could be offset by larger capacity in F or J Class. It's really not a big gain at all.

A longer -8I would really make like difficult for the 380. I'm just wondering which Asian carriers are interested: CX would be one, I'm sure, possibly CI and JL.
 
siromega
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:31 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 7):
But what does that do to range...

Wouldnt it just negate the 300nm range improvement they were talking about a month or two back? So back to 8000nm and have 25 more pax. Definately sounds good from a CASM perspective (how many more routes would be offered with that extra 300nm?)
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 12):
But the GEnx engines for the 748 are not at the top of the thrust levels for the family so they might be able to uprate it.

True, but the GEnx engine for the 748 is not the same as the 787. It has fewer stages and a smaller fan. It still may have room to grow, and maybe Boeing is getting good results from GE that point to the ability to offer greater thrust on the engine which would also mean the F version could have greater range...

Quoting SirOmega (Reply 16):
Wouldnt it just negate the 300nm range improvement they were talking about a month or two back?

Who knows? It's not that simple. and the 8300nm range is on an awkward part of the range curve anyway, so the impact might be much steeper.
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zvezda
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:38 am

Quoting Kaitak (Reply 15):
A longer -8I would really make like difficult for the 380.

The maximum possible stretch to the B747-8I that would still fit in the 80x80 box would be another 11 frames (220 inches). Most likely 5 forward and 6 after the wing. That would have a cabin floor area of about 460 sq meters. For comparison:
B747-400: 372.0
B747-8I: 406.8
A380-800: 552.5

So, a maximally stretched SuperJumbo would be almost exactly midsize between the current JumboJet and the WhaleJet. To cope with the greater MTOW, the larger fanned engines from the B787 might be needed but, even still, CASM would be lower than with the B747-8I. Could it beat the B787-10 in CASM? Maybe.
 
cxb744
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Perhaps the A350/370 design imbroglio means the basic concepts and specifications of "launched" programs will be routinely challenged by customers henceforth?

This has been happening, at Boeing, since the B777 program began back in the late 80's. They call it "Working Together."
What is it? It's A 747-400, but that's not important right now.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:50 am

I wonder if the stretch would also increase interest from BA, NW, UA, LH, VS, and AF?

Decreasing the range from 8300nm to 8000nm, with an increase in 25 (or so) seats might not make sense, as this puts it at exactly the same range as the Whale-Jet.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 14):
It doesn't necessarily make sense to lengthen the B747-8I to the same length as the B747-8F. The reason is that even if they were the same length overall, the B747-8I would be longer aft of the wing and the B747-8F would be longer forward of the wing due to balance requirements.

No, it does make sense, both from a design/engineering and production position. BTW, the wing will be in the same location on both the "I" and "F" versions. Designing the wing location in different positions for both versions would be very expensive. It may be cheaper just to design a new airplane all together.

Bring the seating capacity up to 475 makes the B-747-800I much closer to the A-380-800. It could cause some future A-380 customers to consider the B-747 as a cheaper, more fuel effecient altermitive.
 
leelaw
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:59 am

Quoting CXB744 (Reply 19):
They call it "Working Together."

My impression was that the "working together" part was, for the most part, to take place before "launch," to avoid costly and time-consuming "rethinks?"
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mush
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:09 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 9):
It might. I thought they might do this from the start.



Quoting CM767 (Reply 10):
Initially I had the same fought ,

Thanks for the replies, seems like a couple of us were thinking the same thing...Great minds think alike  Wink

Quoting Mptpa (Reply 11):
They will need to wait and see what the available engine choice(s) would be and the associated fuel burn. Unless they opt to go with composite structures a la B787, but this would be a huge developmental expenditure as well as tooling. The current autoclave would need to be much bigger mainly for the humped areas incl Section 41

Would it make sense to change the wings and certain structural members from aluminum to composite? This would negate the need to develope bigger autoclaves... Also, would the new wing need to undergo static testing? And would this testing make it cost prohibitive to switch to composites?

Thanks for the replies and patience with all of my questions...

mush
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autothrust
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:26 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
Bring the seating capacity up to 475 makes the B-747-800I much closer to the A-380-800. It could cause some future A-380 customers to consider the B-747 as a cheaper, more fuel effecient altermitive.

Maybe cheaper but i highly doubt it will be more fuel efficient thats wishful thinking.
Imo if they stretch it more the plane will have a higher ZFW and no way it can outperform the a380 in terms of casm.   
Btw i would prefer more spacious A380 then a cramped flight on 747-8 every day.
Thats natural only an opinion  

[Edited 2006-06-19 20:27:05]

[Edited 2006-06-19 20:29:49]
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zvezda
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
No, it does make sense, both from a design/engineering and production position. BTW, the wing will be in the same location on both the "I" and "F" versions. Designing the wing location in different positions for both versions would be very expensive. It may be cheaper just to design a new airplane all together.

Sorry, no. The center of gravity needs to be very close to the center of lift. Because the I version has the long hump and the F version has the short hump (without any payload up there), the F version is relatively longer before the wing and the I version is relatively longer after the wing. Production considerations must give way to airworthiness.  Wink
 
Tod
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 24):
F version is relatively longer before the wing and the I version is relatively longer after the wing. Production considerations must give way to airworthiness.

And the further aft of the wing you go, the more tailstrike becomes an issue.

Tod
 
ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:42 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 24):
the F version is relatively longer before the wing and the I version is relatively longer after the wing. Production considerations must give way to airworthiness.

But might they stretch the 748i so there is an identical wheel base? Would that decrease design costs? That would be 7 ft 4in more length of the 748i before the wing, which would mean they'd need more aft of the wing too, which would be more that a total 7ft stretch. More like a 15 ft stretch from the current 748i.

So, I guess the answer is, unless they do something to lighten the front half of the plane considerably, they can't have the same wheelbase for both models without a considerable stretch of the 748i.
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Tod
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:51 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 26):
identical wheel base? Would that decrease design costs?

Not really.

Tod
 
leelaw
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 4:57 am

The full text of the FI article in now available online:

"Boeing considers lengthening 747-8I"

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+considers+lengthening+747-8I.html
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:02 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 14):
Airlines in Asia may prefer to give up some range in order to lower CASM.

For some Asian carriers should this change be considered in the context of a 2-class configuration ?
 
steeler83
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:07 am

I think that a longer 747-8i would be a better competitor to the A380 than the original 748i design. It won't have quite as many pax as the A380, but it would still seat quite a bit more. If they do go about 15ft longer, wouldn't that yield another 4 rows on the plane? Instead of adding another 25 seats to have a capacity of 475, wouldn't that add another 30-40 seats bringing the capacity to 480 or 490 pax, based on a 2x4x2 and 3x4x3 seating arrangement respectively?

I figured that Asian airlines would be pushing for this, but how does/how would BA view this option. Didn't they state some interest in the 747-8i or was that a rumor? I realize that they are not the only airline out there that would be interested in the 747-8i, but they seem to be the only one that seems to have come forward with any interest, unless I have missed something...
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lnglive1011yyz
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:12 am

Wow.. sounds cool..

Some observations:

1) As noted by someone early on in the thread, the design concepts of launched programs seem to be dictated more and more by customer requests, than ever before.. Seems like customers are getting the use out of heavy negotiations with the airframe builders..

Could become a challenge for all of the airframe builders.. being pushed to the limits.

2) Seems that the customer has become the focus in recent days, whereby the past, airframers built their aircraft with a 'generalization' of what customers 'might' need..

Customer wins.

1011yyz
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MCIGuy
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 23):
Btw i would prefer more spacious A380 then a cramped flight on 747-8 every day.
Thats natural only an opinion

Now that's the first time I've heard anyone describe a trip on a 747 of any kind as "cramped".  Wink
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JAAlbert
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:48 am

In other words . . . .

Don't count on any orders for the 748-I anytime soon
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:01 am

Quoting JAAlbert (Reply 33):
In other words . . . .

Don't count on any orders for the 748-I anytime soon

I did think that, but now I don't know. Maybe the decision has already been made and we'll get a surprise next month.(?)
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Adria
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:14 am

So it looks like Boeing is doing the same Airbus did with the A350/A370. Considering the fact no one ordered the pax version(obviously CASM is not so low or not a big factor when compared to the A380?) they have to do something
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 14):
They may also desire closer competition between the SuperJumbo and the WhaleJet in order to put more price pressure on both.

Closer competition? What has happened to the so-often claimed CASM advantage of the B747-8?


PH
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:36 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 35):
So it looks like Boeing is doing the same Airbus did with the A350/A370.

The difference being the A350/A370 is losing ground to the 787 on a daily basis while nearly all potential 747-8 customers are in observation mode.

Quoting Adria (Reply 35):
Considering the fact no one ordered the pax version(obviously CASM is not so low or not a big factor when compared to the A380?) they have to do something

No potential customers have ruled it out either. The aircraft is still in the process of definition, and has only been on offer for 8 months. You're being far too presumptuous at this point in time...

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 36):
Closer competition? What has happened to the so-often claimed CASM advantage of the B747-8?

You're reading incorrectly. Nothing has "happened," the current 450-seat 748I still matches the CASM of the A388.

Zvezda is saying that a stretched 748I makes the two aircraft closer competitors in terms of capacity. Please don't be ignorant and assume that CASM is the only factor that matters to airlines.

If an airline needs capacity, then a small penalty in CASM can be outweighed by the revenue potential of greater seats. It's a delicate equation, but other factors like mission flexibility, performance, and depreciation also affect the choice of an airline. CASM is one of many factors.

If Boeing does stretch the 748I, the additional seats would likely provide an incremental boost in seat-mile economics and satiate the customers who want a bit more capacity.
 
Adria
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:47 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 37):
The difference being the A350/A370 is losing ground to the 787 on a daily basis while nearly all potential 747-8 customers are in observation mode.

Yes so are the A380 potential customers. But fact is that compared to the 787 the 748 has no yet won a single battle in a segment where there is no competition...

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 37):
No potential customers have ruled it out either. The aircraft is still in the process of definition, and has only been on offer for 8 months. You're being far too presumptuous at this point in time...

This is true but not having a single pax version order is bad, the result of this is the lengthening of the 748

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 37):
You're reading incorrectly. Nothing has "happened," the current 450-seat 748I still matches the CASM of the A388.

says who?
 
keesje
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:53 am

I think this is a good idea & even suggested this modification 8 months ago (before launch):

B747 Adv Passenger, Should Boeing Adjust Design?
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/2394816

it was of course burned down in Pavlov like fashion by folks like N79969, NAV20, Atmx2000, FlyingHippo, GARPD, Stitch, AirFrnt and othera that tend to dismiss anything that suggests Boeing gets it wrong sometimes. Who are we to question Boeing?

However reality kicks in: the 747-8i doesn´t sell, the A380 is pretty good & airlines think the 747-8i should be larger. Probably for their growing hub-hub operations. Direct city-city long haul connections aren´t taken over and size reduces casm.

So Boeing looks at creating a better version. Airbus gets burned down for adjusting the A350 versionV.IIIX2, Boeing is admired for listening to its customers & being flexible.

Probably the Japanese said they will of course buy the new 747 but make it a little larger first.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:59 am

What all this means is another few months of expletive delays, this time for the 748I.

Who knew that Airbus and Boeing could be so slow.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:00 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 37):
Nothing has "happened," the current 450-seat 748I still matches the CASM of the A388.

That remains to be proven...and my question was rather rhetoric, btw.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 37):
Please don't be ignorant and assume that CASM is the only factor that matters to airlines.

Oh, I know well CASM alone doesn't matter - but certain members seem to be convinced of the opposite.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:11 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 39):
it was of course burned down in Pavlov like fashion by folks like N79969, NAV20, Atmx2000, FlyingHippo, GARPD, Stitch, AirFrnt and othera that tend to dismiss anything that suggests Boeing gets it wrong sometimes. Who are we to question Boeing?

Keesjie-weejie, I didn't say anything about your 747 proposal in that thread. I only commented on your implication that the increased capacity of the 787-8 was due to it being made larger by being lengthened, which is false.
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keesje
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:17 am

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 37):
You're reading incorrectly. Nothing has "happened," the current 450-seat 748I still matches the CASM of the A388.

I think the 450 seat B747-8i vs 555 seat A380-800 comparison cannot be taken serious by people that look at the numbers like Boeing product development and the Airlines.

The seat difference of the current 747-8i with the A380-800 is about 35%. The movement we see now at Boeing is narrowing the gab to say 28-30%.
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ikramerica
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:44 am

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 40):
What all this means is another few months of expletive delays, this time for the 748I.

There's no delay in the 748F as it is so far on schedule, and there's no delay in the 748i since nobody has any contracts signed for any specific date anyway. You can't have a delay without a customer. They set an EIS target at launch, but those dates are shifted all the time, backward or forward depending.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:52 am

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 23):
Maybe cheaper but i highly doubt it will be more fuel efficient thats wishful thinking.
Imo if they stretch it more the plane will have a higher ZFW and no way it can outperform the a380 in terms of casm.

After a max gross TO weight, the current B-747-400 burns some 20,000lbs to 22,000lbs of fuel per hour. The A-380, under the same conditions burns some 36,000lbs per hour. At least that is what my airport reference book for the A-380 tells me, and this is Airbus data.

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 24):
Sorry, no. The center of gravity needs to be very close to the center of lift. Because the I version has the long hump and the F version has the short hump (without any payload up there), the F version is relatively longer before the wing and the I version is relatively longer after the wing. Production considerations must give way to airworthiness.

First the weight difference is not very much, as the swing open cargo door weight (and related opening/closing/locking machinery) on the "F" version takes up much of the difference. There is also additional ballest (some 850lbs) under the main cargo deck, forward of the nose gear on the "F" version. So, both the cargo and pax versions of the B-747 start with the same reference datum point, some 240" in front of the airplane (typical for most Boeing airplanes). The distance between the front of the radome to the leading edge of the wing, on both B-747s is identical. The wing is not in a different location for the "F" and "I" versions. The only version of the B-747 that has the wing in a slightly different fuselarge body station is the B-747-SP.

You are correct, like any other airplane, the CG must be close to the center of lift. But, like any other airplane, the CG is controlled by the load (pax or cargo) and the fuel, and the fuel is burned in a spacific sequence to maintane the CG at, or near the desired location. In the KC-135, we would normally keep the CG between 29% and 31% MAC (Mean Aerodynamic Cord, from the reference datum point), even though the full safe flight CG range was from 16% (for T/O, 18% for Landing) to 36% MAC. We flew at a slightly aft CG to take the drag of the horizontal stabizer off the airplane. The KC-135, B-707, B-727, B-737, B-747, B-757, B-767, B-777, and B-787 are all growth airplanes from the B-367-80, and all (except the B-727) have similar flight and CG (% of MAC) charataristics. But they are not identical.

Installing ballest during modification or manufacture is not new. Both the KC-135Q and E-3 have ballest in the forward nose sections. The E-3, KC-135 and all Boeing commerical airplanes are natuerally tail heavy, so ballast is used to balance the airplanes.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 38):
But fact is that compared to the 787 the 748 has no yet won a single battle in a segment where there is no competition...

Nor has it lost a battle... so comparisons to the A350 are invalid.

Quoting Adria (Reply 38):
This is true but not having a single pax version order is bad, the result of this is the lengthening of the 748

There is a single 747-8I customer...

However, you cannot assume that the 748I has not been ordered because it is too small. What's to say airlines wouldn't have eventually ordered the 450-seat version? The decision to consider a stretch may simply be a means to expedite orders versus grasp-out for airlines that would under no condition order a 450-seat variant ..

In the end, the firm specificaitons will not be chosen until September and incorperating customer-feedback only increases the likelyhood that the 748I will be ordered.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 43):
I think the 450 seat B747-8i vs 555 seat A380-800 comparison cannot be taken serious by people that look at the numbers like Boeing product development and the Airlines.

Save it for your own mental masturbation... it's been discussed all day long.

If airlines found Boeing's capacity numbers to be manipulative, they would have said so. In this article, it says the airlines want more seats, not that the existing configuration is unrealistic. You're grasping at straws...
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:15 am

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 40):
What all this means is another few months of expletive delays, this time for the 748I.

Who knew that Airbus and Boeing could be so slow.

There is no airline schedule (that I know of) for the EIS of the B-747-800I, so there is no delay.

As far as I know, the design for the B-747-800I is not frozen, yet. It is frozen for the B-747-800F.
 
AvObserver
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 23):
Imo if they stretch it more the plane will have a higher ZFW and no way it can outperform the a380 in terms of casm.

Almost needless to say, again, as Planehunter reminded us, this remains to be seen.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 39):
I think this is a good idea & even suggested this modification 8 months ago (before launch):

I remember and agree with you, even given a small range penalty. By the way, I expect Airbus to get only praise when they come back with a FULLY redesigned A350/A370, properly optimized to take on the 787. Expectations for the 747-8 are understandably not as high as for the A350, given their relative importance in the market so one must expect more criticism for Airbus in that they didn't initially fully optimize a design intended for a far more critical segment. Boeing may do some amazing things with the 748-I but in no way could it be considered as serious an A380 competitor as the envisioned redesigned A350/A370 would be to the 787/777.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Boeing Considers Lengthening 747-8I

Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 39):
I think this is a good idea & even suggested this modification 8 months ago (before launch):

Actually... the 747-8I hasn't been launched yet  Wink