MAH4546
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LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:25 am

The last step towards allowing LANArgentina to fly to the US - US DOT approval to use their own 4M-registered aircraft on the route - was recieved last week, and 4M has now announced that service to Miami will being 15 August 2006. LAN Argentina will operate a daily 767-300ER service on the route, joining American Airlines (1x daily 772/1x daily 763 which becomes 2x daily 772 in September at the expense of RDU-LGW's 772) and Aerolineas Argentinas (daily service with a mix of A340 and A310 aircraft) on the route.

PR (Spanish):
http://www.eleconomista.es/mercados-...os-entre-Buenos-Aires-y-Miami.html

Good week for MIA. Two key long-haul routes get a third non-stop carrier, Buenos Aires and Madrid.

[Edited 2006-06-19 18:35:32]
a.
 
PDPsol
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:31 am

Wow, FINALLY LAN's 4M affiliate in Argentina is getting its act together!

Now, the article makes reference to 'un Boeing 767-300ER'. I would assume 4M would need TWO aircraft to make its EZE-MIA service a daily offering.

Does anyone know if the new LV-registered aircraft are existing LA examples [with a new Argentine registration], or whether they are brand-new 767-316ER's from LAN's existing 15 unit order? I believe a number of aircraft from this order have already been delivered to LA.

Also, what about REGIONAL flights to Brasil and Uruguay for 4M? Couldn't 4M compete with AR and PU on the AEP-MVD run and flights to GRU/GIG/POA [in competition with JJ and G3]?

Any clue how many A320's are scheduled for the 4M affiliate in Argentina?
 
miamix707
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:44 am

Since this thread talks about MIA, what happened to Eurofly's summer service?

Any new airlines looking to serve MIA? Supposedly this year Acerca and Domodedovo will start flying there.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 2:47 am

 
MAH4546
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:33 am

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 2):
Any new airlines looking to serve MIA? Supposedly this year Acerca and Domodedovo will start flying there.


Coming up this year we have the aforementioned LANArgentina starting 15Aug06 and Air Madrid starts 30Oct06.

Domodedovo Airlines planned to start service when they switched to their summer timetable at the end of March, but did not get US government approval until mid-April, by which time all their resources have been allocated. They plan to start MIA with the switch to the winter 2006/07 timetable, which is better in the end, because it is always best to launch service during peak travel periods. Aserca and Conviasa have both announced MIA service. Conviasa hasn't announced route plans, but Aserca plans to operate four daily flights to MIA using a pair of MD80s that they plan to acquire this fall. The routes will be Maracaibo-Miami, Santo Domingo-Barquisimeto-Miami, Valencia-Miami, and Puerto Ordaz-Barcelona-Miami. Of course, neither Aserca nor Conviasa have yet to apply with DOT to fly to the US. I have do believe that Conviasa will probably land at MIA before Aserca does.

South African Airways, which has already begun advertising in print ads advising customers to "watch for our newest US gateway in the coming months", will probably make a decission on if that new gateway is MIA by the end of the summer.

[Edited 2006-06-20 00:37:30]
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Cubsrule
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:27 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 1):

Does anyone know if the new LV-registered aircraft are existing LA examples [with a new Argentine registration], or whether they are brand-new 767-316ER's from LAN's existing 15 unit order? I believe a number of aircraft from this order have already been delivered to LA.

From boeing.com (which is not necessarily the most reliable source), it appears that LA has 10 outstanding 763ER pax orders and 1 outstanding 763F order. CC-CWF, a passenger bird, was the most recently delivered (March 2006). If the 320 is any indication, the 763s will likely come from within the LA system, as LV-BET flew as CC-COO for LA, LP (as VP-BCS), and I think LAN Ecuador too.

[Edited 2006-06-20 01:28:24]
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
PHKLM
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
10 outstanding 763ER pax orders

This sounds a bit too much for SCL operations only, if you ask me. Off course they could use the new birds on LA and LP and transfer some used metal to 4M.
From Airbus.com I retrieve that there are 32 pending A320 orders and 2 more A340's on order.
The reason for the A340's is obvious (ETOPS), the A320's will likely nreplace the 732 fleet (both in Chile and Argentina) and help LAN expand in Argentina, Equador and Peru.
IMHO LAN is a great LatAm carrier, hope they keep up the good work.
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:02 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 1):
Wow, FINALLY LAN's 4M affiliate in Argentina is getting its act together!

Not really. Booking in December, the non-stop flight doesn't show up. So, that gives you a huge level of uncertainty.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 1):
Now, the article makes reference to 'un Boeing 767-300ER'. I would assume 4M would need TWO aircraft to make its EZE-MIA service a daily offering.

Indeed. LAN Argentina officials said the route would start 15Jul06 with a 3 or 4x weekly flight. And then upgraded to daily on 15Aug06. That's when they said they'd be going to get their second 767-300ER. It seems that the first 767 is going to be the LAPA bird, LV-ZPL. Don't know what the new registration is going to be.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 1):
Does anyone know if the new LV-registered aircraft are existing LA examples [with a new Argentine registration], or whether they are brand-new 767-316ER's from LAN's existing 15 unit order?

Read above. The first one will not be a LAN owned bird. It'll be a -3Q8/ER.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 1):
Also, what about REGIONAL flights to Brasil and Uruguay for 4M? Couldn't 4M compete with AR and PU on the AEP-MVD run and flights to GRU/GIG/POA [in competition with JJ and G3]?

They are still trying to get their the ontime record better. The first A320 flight departed with a 50 minute delay. Right after that flight, just like PHKLM said, the A320 visited the MX hangars. And as for the route, I believe they have asked for permission for them, and were granted - yet, they didn't add any new destination since '05. They don't have new additions to their fleet, I guess that's the reason. And plus, they need to add the non-profitable destinations they are required.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 5):
LV-BET flew as CC-COO for LA, LP (as VP-BCS), and I think LAN Ecuador too.

LV-BET flew for LP as VP-BCS and CC-COO.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 1):
Any clue how many A320's are scheduled for the 4M affiliate in Argentina?

LAN says there will be 4 A320s and 3 737-200s by year-end 2006. Let's hope so.  Yeah sure

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 6):
the A320's will likely nreplace the 732 fleet (both in Chile and Argentina) and help LAN expand in Argentina

They will be replaced, but their cost is a tad higher than the 732s, because they are bigger airplanes. A319s are much more suitable replacements - and still their cost is higher. I guess we will be seing some A318s, I hope!  Smile

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 6):
IMHO LAN is a great LatAm carrier, hope they keep up the good work.

Yes, and within the legality in every country.

Cheers! wave 
Gaston - The MD11junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
AA767400
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:27 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 7):
Yes, and within the legality in every country.

Gaston-The 4M hater junkie.

Could it be that old conosur rivalry that keeps your flames going?
"The low fares airline."
 
Arcano
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:33 am

Quoting PHKLM (Reply 6):
This sounds a bit too much for SCL operations only, if you ask me. Off course they could use the new birds on LA and LP and transfer some used metal to 4M.

But CC registred can be useful for Lan Peru and Lan Ecuador ops. At least while Peruvian regulation doesn't get any review

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 7):
Yes, and within the legality in every country

Cheers for that.

I hope you won't get a new EZE-MIA carrier, but also some of the nibest cabin, with ptvs and headrests...

Rehards )(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:36 am

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 8):
Gaston-The 4M hater junkie.

Could it be that old conosur rivalry that keeps your flames going?

Take a look at the last two threads about LAN Argentina created by me. You'll see that my criticism has gone WAY down. This is because they've started doing things right, and they have a LOOOOONG way to go. But I've stepped up again, because they are starting to fail again with their promises. They are still missing to employ the 150 employees (ex-MJ, D7 and A4) that they promised they would, and on top of that, they agreed with the unions there would be no firing, and in the last month at least 3 people had been fired, even though they were reinstated due to union pressures.

Here they are:
Finally! First A320 For LAN Argentina! (by MD11junkie May 18 2006 in Civil Aviation) LAN Argentina B737-200 Incident (by MD11junkie May 17 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Cheers! wave 
Gaston - The MD11junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
PDPsol
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:45 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 7):
And plus, they need to add the non-profitable destinations they are required.

I have seen this mentioned before and, if true, is rather bizarre. I know there have been several rumors posted over the past week alleging:

- AR's controlling shareholder, Marsans SA, has already or is about to strike an agreement with 'K' which would widen the price-control bands for domestic cabotage fares in Argentina, in return for obtaining a 5-20% equity stake in AR and a "promise" to broaden the equity participation by "Argentine nationals" to over 51%

- Also, AR would receive direct government subsidies for fuel on "non-profitable" routes to destinations such as Nowhere, Patagonia

- 'K' wants more control over AR and loves to play hardball. As I am sure you know, he is in Madrid right now and will most likely announce the agreement with Marsans SA very soon

- But, is LAN's Argentine subsidiary REQUIRED under any sort of agreement with the State to serve places like Desierto, Jujuy and Jungla, Misiones? I simply mention these imaginary destinations as non-viable routes under the existing price-control system

Here's a question: why doesn't the government abandon its price-controls and allow AR and 4M to charge WHAT THE MARKET WANTS to destinations passengers WANT TO FLY TO?
 
Arcano
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:00 pm

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 8):
Could it be that old conosur rivalry that keeps your flames going?

No rivalry, pure fraternal Andean brotherhood... o no, Gastón?

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 11):
Here's a question: why doesn't the government abandon its price-controls and allow AR and 4M to charge WHAT THE MARKET WANTS to destinations passengers WANT TO FLY TO?

Do you have any answer you want to share?
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:01 pm

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 11):
Here's a question: why doesn't the government abandon its price-controls and allow AR and 4M to charge WHAT THE MARKET WANTS to destinations passengers WANT TO FLY TO?

So that the masses can fly.   Peronist ideas. You figure them out.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 11):
AR's controlling shareholder, Marsans SA, has already or is about to strike an agreement with 'K' which would widen the price-control bands for domestic cabotage fares in Argentina, in return for obtaining a 5-20% equity stake in AR and a "promise" to broaden the equity participation by "Argentine nationals" to over 51%

That is only a rumour, and hasn't been confirmed by anyone. Still, Marsans would still be the biggest shareholder.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 11):
Also, AR would receive direct government subsidies for fuel on "non-profitable" routes to destinations such as Nowhere, Patagonia

AFAIK, Fuel is 50% of the cost. If it were to be subsidized, taxes and fees should be covered IMO. And 'nowhere, Patagonia' is LADE's territory. Don't mess with her  

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 11):
'K' wants more control over AR and loves to play hardball. As I am sure you know, he is in Madrid right now and will most likely announce the agreement with Marsans SA very soon

Yes, but let's see what he does. He's pretty astute. That would liberate somewhat 300 million dollars to cover ARs expenses and that would the company completely back on track.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 11):
But, is LAN's Argentine subsidiary REQUIRED under any sort of agreement with the State to serve places like Desierto, Jujuy and Jungla, Misiones? I simply mention these imaginary destinations as non-viable routes under the existing price-control system

Sorry, but the agreement with the government stated that they HAD to fly to those destinations. If they don't abide it, why should the government allow them from operating in the country?

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 11):
Here's a question: why doesn't the government abandon its price-controls and allow AR and 4M to charge WHAT THE MARKET WANTS to destinations passengers WANT TO FLY TO?

Here's another question: Why would a left 'thinking' government that is struggling to keep inflation under 1% would do that?

Just so you have it clear, 20% increase in the bands, DOES not mean increase in fares. That is just word play.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 12):
No rivalry, pure fraternal Andean brotherhood... o no, Gastón?

Of course, my friend.  Smile

Cheers!  
Gaston - The MD11junkie

[Edited 2006-06-20 05:03:22]
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
MAH4546
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:03 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 7):
Not really. Booking in December, the non-stop flight doesn't show up. So, that gives you a huge level of uncertainty.

No, it doesn't. Airline schedule changes are updated on Saturdays. That means that when an airline route is announced, it typically isn't bookable until the next Saturday. A few airlines, like Delta, upload new routes right away, but it is not common.
a.
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:12 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 14):
No, it doesn't. Airline schedule changes are updated on Saturdays. That means that when an airline route is announced, it typically isn't bookable until the next Saturday. A few airlines, like Delta, upload new routes right away, but it is not common

Thanks for the data, it doesn't show up in Aug either. Will check back on Sat.

Cheers! wave 
Gaston - The MD11junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:27 pm

Gaston-

Are the bilaterals between Argentina and Uruguay and Argentina and Brazil liberal enough that 4M could fly to those countries if they were so inclined?

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 7):
LV-BET flew for LP as VP-BCS and CC-COO.

I think it flew for both LA and LP with both registrations; there are pictures of it in the database flying to PUQ, PMC, and MVD. Remember that, as Arcano mentioned, the Peruvians are not as picky as the Argentines when it comes to registrations.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:48 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
Remember that, as Arcano mentioned, the Peruvians are not as picky as the Argentines when it comes to registrations

That's because their law doesn't say anything about it. Ours does, and if you want to operate in Argentina - picky or not, you need to follow the rules. End of story.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 16):
Are the bilaterals between Argentina and Uruguay and Argentina and Brazil liberal enough that 4M could fly to those countries if they were so inclined?

I think they've already asked for permission for somewhat like 25 routes and they've gotten permission for all of them. No need to check the Bilats.

Cheers! wave 
Gaston - The MD11junie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
PDPsol
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:52 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 13):
Sorry, but the agreement with the government stated that they HAD to fly to those destinations. If they don't abide it, why should the government allow them from operating in the country?

I was asking a question, not making a statement. I thought the ONLY condition LA agreed to with the State when it launched 4M was to hire the 800 ex-A4, MJ and D7 employees. I did not know 4M was under any sort of requirement to serve certain undesirable, unprofitable destinations.

These conditions, as well as the 49% foreign ownership threshold, do not facilitate the entry of new capital investment and increased competition in the domestic Argentine cabotage market.

Liberalized fares + new capital investment = better service and lower fares

I suspect this concept is completely foreign to 'K' and his cronies.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 13):
Here's another question: Why would a left 'thinking' government that is struggling to keep inflation under 1% would do that?

See above. These people have NO idea how markets work or what incentives economic agents rely on when making commercial decisions. Remember, these are the same people that imposed an embargo on beef exports, to control domestic beef prices!! They all need to take some price theory and microeconomics classes!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:54 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 17):
That's because their law doesn't say anything about it. Ours does, and if you want to operate in Argentina - picky or not, you need to follow the rules. End of story.

Easy there, tiger. I wasn't trying to pick a fight but rather trying to point out that the bird operated for both LA and LP with both registrations, something allowed under Peruvian and Chilean law but prohibited under Argentine law.

FWIW (though I am way off topic here), until 4M gets bigger, the inability to sub CC or VP registered birds is going to be an operational handicap, especially when the 763s begin to arrive and no spares are on property. They may have to cancel some flights for m/x when it would be pretty easy just to ferry a bird over from SCL and have it operate the flights.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:32 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 19):
Easy there, tiger. I wasn't trying to pick a fight but rather trying to point out that the bird operated for both LA and LP with both registrations, something allowed under Peruvian and Chilean law but prohibited under Argentine law.

Yet, you said Argentines were picky because we didn't allow this. I don't know if you word it incorrectly, but if there's a law, it was made to be respected. If Aerolíneas Argentinas does it, why can't LAN Argentina?

In other news, Clarín brought it up:
http://www.clarin.com/diario/2006/06/20/elpais/p-01205.htm

An extract from the article:

Quoting Clarín:
La aerolínea Lan Argentina va a comenzar con sus vuelos internacionales desde la Argentina hacia Estados Unidos a partir del 15 de agosto: el debut será con la ruta Ezeiza-Miami, tres veces por semana, con un Boeing 767-300.

The article states that the route will start with a 3x weekly frequency, which means yet another delay (another month) to the 'original' date (set one month ago). And this is why, I don't question the 'see it, then believe it' or 'ver para creer'.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
LVZXV
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:56 am

OK, I am about to launch another maverick comment which I doubt any Argentine wants to here, but every so often feel that it has to be said:

If Argentina were a more law-abiding country, I am sure that we would not be wrestling with LAN at every corner forcing them to abide by Argentine laws. I am not Chilean and I am not the CEO of LAN, hence I don't know for sure what their agenda is, but Argentina's Achilles heel or punto débil is its lawlessness, and I would be surprised if LAN were not so opportunistic as to try--where possible--to capitalise on that, the classic case of "give an inch, we'll take a mile". The fact that they have not succeeded is credit to Argentina, but that is not to say that Argentine opposition to LAN is not entirely devoid of hypocrisy.

Flame me those who wish to, I'm merely inverting the coin.

Saludos,

ZXV
How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 20):
Yet, you said Argentines were picky because we didn't allow this. I don't know if you word it incorrectly, but if there's a law, it was made to be respected.

Would you have preferred captious, carping, critical, dainty, fastidious, fault-finding, finicky, fussy, nice, particular, or persnickety? Those are Roget's other options for "picky." I'm sorry picky has such a negative connotation for you. What word would you have selected?

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 20):
If Aerolíneas Argentinas does it, why can't LAN Argentina?

Because it's stupid that 4M should have to cancel a flight for m/x when a suitable replacement aircraft is available in SCL. If it's flown by Argentines and full of Argentines, who cares where the aircraft is registered?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
USADreamliner
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 11):
Here's a question: why doesn't the government abandon its price-controls and allow AR and 4M to charge WHAT THE MARKET WANTS to destinations passengers WANT TO FLY TO?

In that case, AR will stop serving most cities.
Only Bariloche,Cordoba,Salta,Iguazu,Mendoza,Ushuaia and Mar del Plata will stay.

Flying to Trelew? Formosa? Rio Grande? Catamarca? Sorry. WE ONLY FLY WHERE THE PASSENGERS WANT TO FLY.


USADreamliner  wave 
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):
Because it's stupid that 4M should have to cancel a flight for m/x when a suitable replacement aircraft is available in SCL. If it's flown by Argentines and full of Argentines, who cares where the aircraft is registered?

How about the law? I don't see Argentine registered planes flying domestic in Chile. And even 3I, AR's supposedly sister company is flying - with chilean reg, when it is much more simple to send over a 732 from AU or AR.  Yeah sure

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 22):
Would you have preferred captious, carping, critical, dainty, fastidious, fault-finding, finicky, fussy, nice, particular, or persnickety? Those are Roget's other options for "picky." I'm sorry picky has such a negative connotation for you. What word would you have selected?

If you meant picky, no, it's called not creating ghost airlines like LAN has created in Peru and Ecuador. Airlines that have no planes dedicated.

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
MAH4546
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:58 am

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 24):
If you meant picky, no, it's called not creating ghost airlines like LAN has created in Peru and Ecuador. Airlines that have no planes dedicated.

LANPeru has dedicated aircraft for non-long haul services.
a.
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:06 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 25):
LANPeru has dedicated aircraft for non-long haul services.

Not anymore.
http://www.aerotransport.org/php/go....?query=operator&where=105805&luck=

Cheers! wave 
Gastón - The MD11junkie
There is no such thing as Boeing vs Airbus as the queen of the skies has three engines, winglets and the sweetest nose!
 
PDPsol
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:17 am

Quoting USADreamliner (Reply 23):
Flying to Trelew? Formosa? Rio Grande? Catamarca? Sorry. WE ONLY FLY WHERE THE PASSENGERS WANT TO FLY.

I would argue private carriers such as 4M and AR would continue servicing destinations such as these if they can do so profitably. How do I suggest they serve these routes and generate profits? Well, with an unregulated cabotage market, both carriers [as well as new entrants!] would offer the fares and frequencies they feel are appropriate.

As MD11j points out, Argentina has several restrictive laws limiting the commercial flexibility of its carriers, namely:

- A 49% equity threshold for foreign shareholders
- A domestic cabotage market governed by fare-band price controls
- A LV-registration requirement, limiting the ability of carriers to swap equipment from affiliate carriers in other nations
- A local crew requirement

Of course, carriers wishing to operate in Argentina must abide by these norms. However, what policy-makers appear to be completely incapable of understanding is that these regulations have a COST and a very significant cost to the Argentine traveling public.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, these rules dissuade new investment in the industry. I am convinced Argentina would receive significant capital investments in its civil market were it to scrap these regulations.

Finally, policy-makers throughout the region [Chile, Peru, Argentina, Brasil, Uruguay, etc] need to understand there are SIGNIFICANT efficiencies associated with fully-liberalizing their civil aviation markets. The EU allows full 'open-skies' flying among its member nations.

It makes one wonder why policy-makers in Argentina [and Brasil, presumably] are reticent to discard out-dated, unnecessary, restrictive laws.
 
TBCITDG
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:34 am

Firstly,
I just flew EZE-MIA on AA . . .  Wow! Oh my God!! Would choose AR over them any day. The Club Condor product is soooo much better. Yet, if LA introduce their new cabin lay out both AR and AA will need to get their act together other wise they may loose out!

As stated before, the law states that 4M need to serve non profitable routes. Why is AR expected to comply with this law yet not any other carrier?
I for one am in favour of what K is doing in Argentina (we can talk economics later), especially when it comes to operating secondary cities throughout Argentina. If this law where to be revoked, then let AR and 4M go about their business, and let the 'fat cows' of each state start their own carrier.

One of the things I am against is the 49% ownership law. As is the case in Australia this law limits the amount of capital that can be invested in Argentina. There are ways around it, just as LA have done to enter the Argentine market. And as IB did in the past and Marsans now. I think that the Peronist do not want a Lan Peru or Lan Ecuador issue on their hands. Local jobs going off shore. I stand to be corrected but wasn't there an industrial threat not too long ago because Chilean maintenance workers came over to do some work on the 4M planes?

Let's hope 4M do get their act together and are able to take off as speculated!
 
Cubsrule
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:15 am

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 27):
- A 49% equity threshold for foreign shareholders
- A domestic cabotage market governed by fare-band price controls
- A LV-registration requirement, limiting the ability of carriers to swap equipment from affiliate carriers in other nations
- A local crew requirement

What public policy goal do these regulations serve?
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Arcano
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:42 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 17):
That's because their law doesn't say anything about it.

But during last election, there was some discussion about reviewing transport agreement with Chile, as you know, Chile is always a good vote charmer in Peru. If that idea gets through, it could get tough for LAN...

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 18):
Liberalized fares + new capital investment = better service and lower fares

AMEN

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 20):
, but if there's a law, it was made to be respected

one question, how Southern Winds could operate TF registered 763s for MAD-EZE?

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 27):
, policy-makers throughout the region [Chile, Peru, Argentina, Brasil, Uruguay, etc] need to understand there are SIGNIFICANT efficiencies associated with fully-liberalizing their civil aviation markets

Indeed, although maintenance certification could justify some regulation. Anyway, it's obvious the huge benefits of well managing spare capacity in aircraft among an airline network as LAN is creating, but still, I think the idea is to grow in other markets, which is not totally ruined by this regulation

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 28):
Yet, if LA introduce their new cabin lay out both AR and AA will need to get their act together other wise they may loose out!

I'm not sure, as they could send some of ex Southern W. aircraft there. I've flown them and they are lousy, not even a decent headrest

Quoting TBCITDG (Reply 28):
Why is AR expected to comply with this law yet not any other carrier?

And why the hell a Private company is demanded to make social service? how many companies do you know that HAVE to serve markets not profitable? Is Metlife forced to protect the poorest people of Montana or something in order to sell life insurance in Montana? Besides, if LA flies to Osorno and Copiapo in Chile, I doubt that they can't manage La Rioja o San Juan as well...
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:47 pm

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 27):
- A LV-registration requirement, limiting the ability of carriers to swap equipment from affiliate carriers in other nations

This implicit requirement that you are taking is not like this. As stated before (in previous threads), the requirement is NOT have Argentine registered aircraft, but to have DEDICATED aircraft. Swapping them between affiliates here is not allowed. However, LAN chose to do it with LV- reggos. That's their own choice. The only requirement, is that they do DEDICATE the aircraft to LAN Argentina ONLY. You can bring as many CCs as you want, as long as they are dedicated to LAN Argentina and not swapped between the affiliates.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 30):
one question, how Southern Winds could operate TF registered 763s for MAD-EZE?

That was back when Argentina was in CAT II (thank you very much, American Airlines). TF-ARA and TF-ARB were flown by Iceland nationals and served by Argentine Cabine Crews. Both of them, were dedicated to A4. I believe those were leased from Air Atlanta Icelandic. BTW, Arcano, we've talked about this before, and we made it clear  Smile Don't keep trying to use this as a valid point, because it's not  Wink

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 27):
- A 49% equity threshold for foreign shareholders

Brazil has a much harder equity threshold. Argentina, until 2001 allowed 100% of foreign ownership.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 30):
I'm not sure, as they could send some of ex Southern W. aircraft there. I've flown them and they are lousy, not even a decent headrest

Very few cycles left on those two 732s, not worth it.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 29):
What public policy goal do these regulations serve?

Keep the air transport running in a country suffering from devaluation and inflation. And no, I'm not defending them, but 2002/2003 were years where you'd have a lot of uncertainty in the country.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 30):
But during last election, there was some discussion about reviewing transport agreement with Chile, as you know, Chile is always a good vote charmer in Peru. If that idea gets through, it could get tough for LAN...

Yet all three candidates (Humala, García and Flores, especially leftwing nut Humala) said that LAN Perú would remain operating and nothing would happen to them.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 30):
And why the hell a Private company is demanded to make social service?

Because that was one of the main conditions for LAN to start operating domestic in the country.

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 27):
Finally, policy-makers throughout the region [Chile, Peru, Argentina, Brasil, Uruguay, etc] need to understand there are SIGNIFICANT efficiencies associated with fully-liberalizing their civil aviation markets. The EU allows full 'open-skies' flying among its member nations

Wanna talk liberalization? Take a look back at AR in 2001. Ruined because of 100% foreign ownership, air fares skyrocketing (with 3 companies + AU, competing against AR). Pdpsol, you need to get this clear. Latam is NOT ready for liberalization. Probably, Chile is - and I applaud that, but NOT the rest.

Cheers! wave 
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LVZXV
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:25 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 31):
Quoting Arcano (Reply 30):
I'm not sure, as they could send some of ex Southern W. aircraft there. I've flown them and they are lousy, not even a decent headrest

Very few cycles left on those two 732s, not worth it.

Arcano can correct me if I am wrong, but I think he was referring to the ex-A4 767s in LA's fleet, whose cabin configuration is allegedly sub-standard (thus increasing the likelihood that these two birds will join 4M).

Quoting Arcano (Reply 30):
one question, how Southern Winds could operate TF registered 763s for MAD-EZE?

This was a last-ditch measure to save the EZE-MIA route, which as Gastón rightly said would have been impossible after Argentina's CAT II downgrade with LV-registered aircraft. As a matter of fact, the first of those two 767s, TF-ARA, arrived in Argentina in April 2002, shortly before the downgrade, and was initially given the Argentine registration LV-ZYV. Ironically, if you pass by the abandoned Southern Winds office on Av. Santa Fé ( facing Plaza San Martín) you can still see the giant 767 model wearing that same registration. If it weren't so large and conspicuous, I might well try to steal it!

The TF-arrangement was a bad idea from the outset. You don't have to be a genius that for a cash-strapped airline like Southern Winds, hiring those birds and paying the Air Atlanta pilots their Icelandic salaries (in Dollars/Euros) was equivalent to shooting themselves in the foot with a bazooka. I think even sheep have better business sense than that. By the time Southern Winds cottoned-on in late-2003/early-2004, the damage was done and the airline was virtually bankrupt, in spite of its grandiose announcements that MD-11s, 737-300s and other technological marvels were on their way. The rest is history...

Saludos,

ZXV
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Cubsrule
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 31):
Keep the air transport running in a country suffering from devaluation and inflation.

I don't see how any of these regulations keep air transport running. They seem to make capital infusions from abroad more difficult. I know AR got screwed (or AR's situation screwed Argentina, however you want to look at it) in 2001, but the LAN group is a completely different animal. Remember, from a place like MDZ, to get on a longhaul flight, it is probably easier to fly to SCL and transfer there. Both 4M and LA have a definite interest in keeping Argentine consumers loyal to the LAN brand.

With respect to the dedicated aircraft requirement, the argument against it is really still the same. When 4M is just flying to MIA with 763s, there will not be a dedicated spare. M/X problems will be M/X cancellations. So if the 763 has a catastrophic engine failure and needs a new engine and it take 4 days, that's 4 cancelled flights. Period, the end. This is harmful to Argentine consumers and serves no purpose.

A more appropriate regulation might be a requirement that some high percentage of flights, say 80 or 90, be flown with dedicated birds. That way, whatever perceived government goal that this regulation has is served, and substitution is permitted when absolutely necessary. It's somewhat hypocritical to complain about 4Ms horrendous completion rate (as you have done in other threads) when one of the factors making it worse is this regulation, which you vociferously defend.

[Edited 2006-06-21 16:38:14]
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 31):
Pdpsol, you need to get this clear. Latam is NOT ready for liberalization.

What makes you think the Argentine market is not "ready" for liberalization and why are you insisting I "get this clear"? Argentines, Brasilians and Chileans all want access to the best services at the lowest possible fares. Market liberalization is the best way to achieve this for the benefit of all consumers. The Argentine market has never experienced full market liberalization, so there are no precedents one can compare to, except those of other regions [the EU being the most relevant].

Maintaining outdated, protectionist regulations does not benefit anyone, except perhaps the labor unions. Whose interests override those of the traveling public; the carriers, employees and their political allies? It appears the interest of consumers are subordinated to those enjoying greater political influence...
 
MD11junkie
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):
I don't see how any of these regulations keep air transport running. They seem to make capital infusions from abroad more difficult. I know AR got screwed (or AR's situation screwed Argentina, however you want to look at it) in 2001, but the LAN group is a completely different animal. Remember, from a place like MDZ, to get on a longhaul flight, it is probably easier to fly to SCL and transfer there. Both 4M and LA have a definite interest in keeping Argentine consumers loyal to the LAN brand.

When things are too expensive, people don't buy it. That was the main purpose of keeping the prices under regulation. So, how useful they became? They kept the passengers (common passengers, not business) from using our very extensive long haul bus network, which is a lot cheaper. So, these were used to keep the airlines flying with passengers, other than having canceled flights and not making ANY money.

It might be probably easier, but that has nothing to do with the Airline. It has to do with infrastructure. AR is not to blame for having to operate in two different airports. Remember, 4M will have to do the same.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):
With respect to the dedicated aircraft requirement, the argument against it is really still the same. When 4M is just flying to MIA with 763s, there will not be a dedicated spare. M/X problems will be M/X cancellations. So if the 763 has a catastrophic engine failure and needs a new engine and it take 4 days, that's 4 cancelled flights. Period, the end. This is harmful to Argentine consumers and serves no purpose.

Sorry - those are argentine regulations, you serve here, you abide by them. Harmful to consumers? Harmful to the airline, I'd say, if they don't keep their planes correctly maintained to have a catastrophic engine failure.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):
A more appropriate regulation might be a requirement that some high percentage of flights, say 80 or 90, be flown with dedicated birds. That way, whatever perceived government goal that this regulation has is served, and substitution is permitted when absolutely necessary. It's somewhat hypocritical to complain about 4Ms horrendous completion rate (as you have done in other threads) when one of the factors making it worse is thiregulation, which you vociferously defend.

Of course I defend the dedicated plane regulation. Airlines are to have airplanes. Currently, LAN Perú and LAN Ecuador, don't. Is that really an airline? More like a ghost.

Fortunately, that is not allowed in this country. Is American Airlines, United Airlines, Delta Air Lines allowed to do this in the United States?

Cheers! wave 
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 34):
What makes you think the Argentine market is not "ready" for liberalization and why are you insisting I "get this clear"? Argentines, Brasilians and Chileans all want access to the best services at the lowest possible fares. Market liberalization is the best way to achieve this for the benefit of all consumers. The Argentine market has never experienced full market liberalization, so there are no precedents one can compare to, except those of other regions [the EU being the most relevant].

Really, just like the 100% ownership of AR by IB. That is the precedent that never existed?  Yeah sure

Society isn't ready. We are experienced the full liberalization of different sectors in Argentina. Everything resulted in almost no investment, companies putting prices REALLY high while the costs were really low... so, the companies (enterpreneurs) are not ready for this. So, until there's no change of thinking habits - at least Argentina, will NOT be ready for liberalization.

Cheers! wave 
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Cubsrule
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 35):
They kept the passengers (common passengers, not business) from using our very extensive long haul bus network, which is a lot cheaper.

US$ 180 for a 1000 km flight like MDZ-AEP is not unreasonable. You should be glad that less fortunate passengers in Argentina have such an alternative. It's significantly better than anything we have in the States.

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 35):
Harmful to consumers?

Reroutes, especially on longhaul flights and especially on a route as typically packed as MIA-EZE, are generally more painful than the original route. That certainly harms consumers.
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LVZXV
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:36 am

Ok, points I agree and disagree with:

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):
I don't see how any of these regulations keep air transport running.

To an extent, I agree. Argentina has seen a lot of airlines disappear in recent years, and Government red tape is at least partly responsible.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):
They seem to make capital infusions from abroad more difficult.

Agreed.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):
I know AR got screwed (or AR's situation screwed Argentina, however you want to look at it) in 2001, but the LAN group is a completely different animal.

Yes, the two airlines play different ball games, a point I have made since I joined this forum.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):
Remember, from a place like MDZ, to get on a longhaul flight, it is probably easier to fly to SCL and transfer there. Both 4M and LA have a definite interest in keeping Argentine consumers loyal to the LAN brand.

Also true.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):
With respect to the dedicated aircraft requirement, the argument against it is really still the same. When 4M is just flying to MIA with 763s, there will not be a dedicated spare. M/X problems will be M/X cancellations. So if the 763 has a catastrophic engine failure and needs a new engine and it take 4 days, that's 4 cancelled flights. Period, the end. This is harmful to Argentine consumers and serves no purpose.

From a cold, corporate standpoint, I'm inclined to agree. AR can afford to have "back-up" aircraft in the form of their 742s, which are paid for and costly to run. 4M on the other hand will not have such aircraft to spare, especially if in the short-term they will have just one or two 767s allocated. Now if LA were to send a CC- 767 in emergencies only, I think that could be allowed, but on a regular basis, I'd rather they didn't.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):
A more appropriate regulation might be a requirement that some high percentage of flights, say 80 or 90, be flown with dedicated birds. That way, whatever perceived government goal that this regulation has is served, and substitution is permitted when absolutely necessary.

Yes, that is not unalike what I propose, but I prefer the "emergencies only" scenario.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):
It's somewhat hypocritical to complain about 4Ms horrendous completion rate (as you have done in other threads) when one of the factors making it worse is this regulation, which you vociferously defend.

That regulation is a doube-edged sword, as we have seen, but I think in the light of the fact that LAN cannot be fully trusted, it serves a purpose. And I don't think that 80% of their fleet went u/s last April because of red tape. What I will say though is that Argentina's business climate is a nightmare, but in a way that is a burden that every company--Argentine and foreign--has to live with until the mentality changes (if ever).

Quoting Pdpsol (Reply 34):
What makes you think the Argentine market is not "ready" for liberalization and why are you insisting I "get this clear"? Argentines, Brasilians and Chileans all want access to the best services at the lowest possible fares. Market liberalization is the best way to achieve this for the benefit of all consumers. The Argentine market has never experienced full market liberalization, so there are no precedents one can compare to, except those of other regions [the EU being the most relevant].

Maintaining outdated, protectionist regulations does not benefit anyone, except perhaps the labor unions. Whose interests override those of the traveling public; the carriers, employees and their political allies? It appears the interest of consumers are subordinated to those enjoying greater political influence...

With all due respect Pdpsol--and you are on my R/U list--I think that liberalization should not be taken as an "absolute good", or something positive en sí particularly when dealing with a loose cannon like Argentina. There is no simple solution to Argentina, just as there is no simple "solution" to Italy's perpetual chaos. Lots of theories--political and economic--have worked in large parts of the world and failed in Argentina, and vice-versa. In a very different sense to tropical Latin America, Argentina is also a Banana Republic, largely because the supposedly "impossible" has a nasty habit of reoccurring, and that--even you are Adam Smith or John Meynard-Keynes--is enough to throw all but the most perverse and crooked of businessmen (hence that's what we get).

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 37):
US$ 180 for a 1000 km flight like MDZ-AEP is not unreasonable. You should be glad that less fortunate passengers in Argentina have such an alternative. It's significantly better than anything we have in the States.

I won't comment much further, but if you quote me a fare of US$180--reasonable enough--multiply that by 3 and that is how it translates in purchasing power to the average Argentine passenger. Remember, everything is as it was during the 1:1--in figures people probably actually earn about the same as in the '90s, and the hard currency is the same--but you have to factor in the value of the Peso being 3 times less, static salaries and the stealthy inflation which has been in double figures for well over a year. In short, it's as though you charged an Argentine US$540 for an MDZ-AEP ticket instead of US$180. And that is insane.

Saludos,

ZXV

[Edited 2006-06-21 17:39:20]
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Arcano
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:18 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 31):
Arcano, we've talked about this before, and we made it clear Don't keep trying to use this as a valid point, because it's not



Quoting LVZXV (Reply 32):
which as Gastón rightly said would have been impossible after Argentina's CAT II downgrade with LV-registered aircraft

Don't take me wrong, gaston, it wasn't a tricky question or intended as a valid point at all; it was an honest question. And the question remains; during CATII period, there was a law that allowed foreign registration a/c? or there was a law after the new CATI that forbidden?

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 31):
Because that was one of the main conditions for LAN to start operating domestic in the country

Yes, but I'm going deeper, why the state transfer to a private company social benefits? I don't think it's fare or correct. Not an absolutely true, just a though, an opinion, which of course you have every right to disagree

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 33):
So if the 763 has a catastrophic engine failure and needs a new engine and it take 4 days, that's 4 cancelled flights.

Haven't thought of that, I think you're right...

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 35):
Currently, LAN Perú and LAN Ecuador, don't. Is that really an airline? More like a ghost.

Depending of what is the definition of an airline you want to chose. Providers of air transport under certain brand and regular operation? They are airlines. Only owners of all their equipment? then they are not...

Anyway, there are thousand of companies that don't own every step of their production chain. For how many brands does Matsushita manufacture VCRs? Is Panasonic less real or ghost company for not owning the manufacture of its products?
Business have evolve, what you label as ghost company works today in many industries, service and manufacture

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 36):
Really, just like the 100% ownership of AR by IB. That is the precedent that never existed

But the awful IB experience in the region (AR, Viasa and Ladeco) does not kill foreign ownership as an idea. LAN was also bought by SAS in 1990, and marsans is running greatly both Aerolineas in the southern cone. One bitter experience should not be used as argument for deny foreign ownership.

Anyway gaston, just thoughts, point of views, no intention to change your mind.

Regards )(
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Cubsrule
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 38):
Now if LA were to send a CC- 767 in emergencies only, I think that could be allowed, but on a regular basis, I'd rather they didn't.

I wouldn't have a problem with that policy in theory either, though I wonder how easy it would be to write appropriate regulations to define "emergency."

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 38):
And I don't think that 80% of their fleet went u/s last April because of red tape.

Not at all, but at least LA could have maybe flown some CC (or VP) birds over and picked up some of the flying. Keep in mind too that LA has parts (in the form of old derilect birds) sitting in SCL.
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LVZXV
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 39):
Don't take me wrong, gaston, it wasn't a tricky question or intended as a valid point at all; it was an honest question. And the question remains; during CATII period, there was a law that allowed foreign registration a/c? or there was a law after the new CATI that forbidden?

I don't think a specific law was necessary when in effect this was nothing more than a standard wet-lease, no different to IB with their 743s and 744s. D7 wet-leased a number of aircraft--MD-80s from LX and OS, 757s from ZB and 732s from N6--all of which retained their foreign registrations.

The case of LAN is different. They are not wet-leasing aircraft to a fully Argentine airline. If a half Chilean airline wanted to operate within Argentina with CC-registered aircraft identical to its parent airline, I'd grow pretty suspicious. And remember that not for a moment did Marsans attempt to place Aerolíneas del Sur's aircraft on anything other than the CC-register.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 39):
But the awful IB experience in the region (AR, Viasa and Ladeco) does not kill foreign ownership as an idea. LAN was also bought by SAS in 1990, and marsans is running greatly both Aerolineas in the southern cone. One bitter experience should not be used as argument for deny foreign ownership.

Speaking of Marsans, while nowhere near as bad as IB, SEPI or AA, they are not far off a disaster themselves. Their administration of AR has been shambollic of late, and that's to put it mildly. At least we know though that they are not singleing-out AR, as A7 is also in tatters.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 40):
Not at all, but at least LA could have maybe flown some CC (or VP) birds over and picked up some of the flying. Keep in mind too that LA has parts (in the form of old derilect birds) sitting in SCL.

The VP-B birds were placed back on the CC-register in 2004, since when the only LAN aircraft on a foreign register have been LAN Argentina's.

Arcano, again, with all due respect, at times you sound like a "Chicago Boy". Yes, business is business, but human beings are not mechanical consumers (or at least the majority of us are not). Strip business of ethics or social obligations and you create a haven for monsters. You know that if LAN could have their way, they would be the only airline in South America. Their nature is predatory and you cannot deny that.

I do not expect you to take well to what I have just written, but if I didn't believe it to be truthful (not the truth, but one of many), I would not have written it.

Saludos,

ZXV
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PDPsol
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:34 am

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 38):
With all due respect Pdpsol--and you are on my R/U list--I think that liberalization should not be taken as an "absolute good", or something positive en sí particularly when dealing with a loose cannon like Argentina.

LVZXV, I thank you for your RU and, likewise, hold your opinions regarding Argentine civil aviation with the highest respect; you are very knowledgeable about the local environment and your posting absence was greatly missed! I also understand your comments regarding the opaque environment under which firms operate in Argentina. Believe me, I have worked on strategic transactions in Argentina and know what you are talking about.

Nonetheless, I suspect the vast spider-web of regulations and rules do more harm and end up damaging the objectives they were based on; namely, to develop Argentina's civil aviation market and offer its consumers the best services at the lowest possible fares.

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 41):
Arcano, again, with all due respect, at times you sound like a "Chicago Boy".

LVZXV, you should know I actually AM a "Chicago Boy"! I went to graduate school at The University of Chicago to study economics and finance. I hold a great deal of confidence in the power of consumers and economic agents to make rational commercial decisions in open and free markets. I truly believe in the power of the market to the benefit of ALL. What Argentina experienced in the 1990's under Menem was ANYTHING BUT free and open market policies; it was outright corrupt cronyism.

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 41):
Speaking of Marsans, while nowhere near as bad as IB, SEPI or SA)">AA, they are not far off a disaster themselves. Their administration of AR has been shambollic of late, and that's to put it mildly. At least we know though that they are not singleing-out AR, as A7 is also in tatters.

Back to the topic, 'K' is in Madrid right now trying to seal a deal with Pascual & Co. at Marsans SA. We shall see...

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 41):
You know that if LAN could have their way, they would be the only airline in South America. Their nature is predatory and you cannot deny that.

No doubt, LAN is in business for one purpose, as are all privately-owned firms: to maximize the wealth of its shareholders. Nonetheless, LAN does have access to investment capital and capital investment is what the Argentine market needs.
 
Arcano
Posts: 2299
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 4:34 am

RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:26 am

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 41):
Arcano, again, with all due respect, at times you sound like a "Chicago Boy". ... Their nature is predatory and you cannot deny that.
I do not expect you to take well to what I have just written, but if I didn't believe it to be truthful (not the truth, but one of many), I would not have written it.

Nah, don't worry at all. I have a major in economy, Marketing specialized, you just described me!.
Still, obviously coming from my background, I think companies MUST respect regulations, but be free under that scenario. I don't believe in over automatizing things, just fare business. I really don't think it's the same to be an agressive and ambicious company than to be predatory. One faces competition, the other doesn't. Lan is just another business trying to expand and become more profitable. Period

I have a trip report to make abuth how LAN is becoming to suck (they downgrade of in flight service is unbelieable), and last wekk I flew to SSA on JJ, so I can finally compare them!

I'm not such a big fan of LAN (not anymore), but I like to stay cool and analize a company from what it truly is, business.

Saludos,
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
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RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:27 am

The flights are now bookable. They will operate from EZE TuThSa/from MIA WeFrSu. The service will become daily later in the year by which time LANArgentina will have a second 767. There is also word that LANArgentina planes and crew will operate a daily MIA-GYE-MIA flight for LANEcuador instead of sitting on the ground.
a.
 
OB1504
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Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:10 am

RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:49 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 44):
There is also word that LANArgentina planes and crew will operate a daily MIA-GYE-MIA flight for LANEcuador instead of sitting on the ground.

Will this affect the routing of their current GYE flight 516/517 via UIO?
 
PDPsol
Posts: 1109
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:09 am

RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:54 am

Well, that is good news; and August 15 is less than two months away so, hopefully, they'll be able to market the new service.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 44):
The service will become daily later in the year by which time LANArgentina will have a second 767

This is all well and good however, for the sake of LAN and LAN Argentina, let's hope "later in the year" does not turn into "sometime in 2007."

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 44):
There is also word that LANArgentina planes and crew will operate a daily MIA-GYE-MIA flight for LANEcuador instead of sitting on the ground

This is also a good use of LAN Argentina's aircraft [better than sitting all day in MIA]. I suspect they will do something similar in EZE, flying to SCL during the day.
 
MAH4546
Topic Author
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: LANArgentina: MIA-EZE Starts 15 August 2006

Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting OB1504 (Reply 45):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 44):
There is also word that LANArgentina planes and crew will operate a daily MIA-GYE-MIA flight for LANEcuador instead of sitting on the ground.

Will this affect the routing of their current GYE flight 516/517 via UIO?

Yes, most likely. Instead of one daily MIA-UIO-GYE flight, LANEcuador will operate two daily flights - one to UIO and GYE. This is being strongly considered in part because Ecuador is now a Category I country, and two Ecuadorian airlines have already expressed interest in flying to Miami. We will see what happens. LAN doesn't like planes sitting on the ground at MIA.
a.

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