leelaw
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Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:14 am

Airbus and Singapore Airlines say the carrier's decision last week to order up to 40 boeing 787-9s does not close the door to a possible deal for the A350/370.

"...[SIA chief executive] Chew Choon Seng has been saying publicly that what we've got to do to fix the A350," says Airbus chief operating officer, customers, John Leahy. "I had a a conference call with the airline [since the 787 deal was announced] and discussions continue on the A350." SIA says "we don't believe in closing the door on anything," and confirms that it will continue talking with Airbus about the A350. "The door is still open." Leahy says that the possible loss of SIA as a customer, "does not impact our internal discussions on what to do with the A350," despite the airline being one of the key drivers behind studies into the the revamped family...


http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...lays+down+SIA+787-9+selection.html

How does this jive with last week's "stop the chaos...let's stick with what we've got" musings regarding the A350 that were eminating from Mr. Leahy?

http://atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=5384

[Edited 2006-06-19 22:16:31]
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Airus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:16 am

I suppose it's not out of the question considering that SIA operates the B777/A340 and B747/A380 concurrently, but if I were Airbus, I wouldn't get my hopes up on this one.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Airus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:19 am

What would you expect Airbus to say? SQ ordering the 787-9 was a big deal and Airbus knows it....but Airbus will go forward with the A350 program in one form or the other and SQ will certainly continue to study any and all new aircraft developed by Boeing and Airbus. The fact that SQ has ordered the 787 greatly reduces the chances of SQ ever ordering the A350 or whatever Airbus's new midsized jet will be called.
 
Leskova
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:31 am

You know... you just might have included the fact that it's not only Airbus playing down the selection in the thread title, but also Singapore Airlines ...

While I agree that the chances for Airbus certainly haven't improved because of SQ's B787 order, a CEO saying "The door is still open." doesn't really sound as if the chances were at 0.
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leelaw
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:33 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
What would you expect Airbus to say?

My point was last week Mr. Leahy seemed to be indicating that Airbus should stick with the "old all-new A350 concept," while these remarks seem to indicate the A350 design needs to be changed? I guess I expect him to be more consistent in his thinking in one week's time.
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leelaw
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:36 am

Quoting Leskova (Reply 3):
You know... you just might have included the fact that it's not only Airbus playing down the selection in the thread title, but also Singapore Airlines ...

Why, FI didn't think it was necessary in its headline: "Manufacturer Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection?"
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Scorpio
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:40 am

Might not be all that far fetched. Remember the 'new' A350 is supposed to include larger versions to compete with the 777. It wouldn't surprise me to see SIA still seriously considering this plane as a replacement for their large 777 fleet. It could put the both of them in their fleet without the two types overlapping.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:55 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
How does this jive with last week's "stop the chaos...let's stick with what we've got"



Quoting Leelaw (Reply 4):
My point was last week Mr. Leahy seemed to be indicating that Airbus should stick with the "old all-new A350 concept,"

I dont think from the article from ATW that you link to that theres any indication that that is what is being said - all I can get from that article is that they would have 30% of the market (which I dont believe) if they stayed with the current design. Essentially I think he is trying to say he believes that even if there is no redesign, their current market share is safe (again, not something I believe) with the current design, not that they should stick with it.

Can you clarify why you came to that conclusion?
 
ebbuk
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 7):
Can you clarify why you came to that conclusion?

yes Leelaw I would welcome some clarification as to how you reached your assumption, I mean conclusion, too
 
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Revelation
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:39 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
[SIA chief executive] Chew Choon Seng has been saying publicly that what we've got to do to fix the A350," says Airbus chief operating officer, customers, John Leahy.

Hmm, is Leahy saying the A350 is "broken"?

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
I had a a conference call with the airline [since the 787 deal was announced] and discussions continue on the A350." SIA says "we don't believe in closing the door on anything," and confirms that it will continue talking with Airbus about the A350.

Yawn. What do you expect? It's in Leahy's interest to say he is still talking to SIA (sifting through the ashes of defeat looking for a victory), whereas it's in SIA's interest to keep talking to Airbus (to keep price pressure on Boeing, and to learn as many details about Airbus aircraft its competition may be interested in).

It's fairly clear to me that A370 and B787-10 will be direct competitors, and it's pretty hard for me to see how SQ will find it in their interest to operate A370 and B787-9 at the same time. It's also pretty clear to me that Boeing will be willing to cut prices to make sure that A370 doesn't end up at SQ, whereas one has to wonder if Airbus will be in a position to loose money on anythng, given their financial pressures.
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JAL
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:36 am

Airbus is just refusing to accept the fact that SIA prefers the 787 over what they have to offer!
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zoom1018
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:12 pm

It is funny how Airbus always has something to say everytime Boeing wins an order.
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:24 pm

Leahy should just focus all of his energy into selling his widebody aircrafts, instead of trying to comment every time Boeing makes a big sales.

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
I had a a conference call with the airline [since the 787 deal was announced] and discussions continue on the A350

The conference call looks like this:

Leahy : Hello SQ, this is John Leahy from Airbus.
SQ : Hi Mr. Leahy, What's up?
Leahy: Are you still interested in our A350
SQ: Not really we just ordered from Boeing
Leahy: OK thank you
 biggrin 

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
n1786b
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:29 pm

Quoting Zoom1018 (Reply 11):
It is funny how Airbus always has something to say everytime Boeing wins an order

Isn't it a funny way for FI to announce the order?

A huge win for Boeing and the 787 coming the day after EADS/Airbus' Black Wednesday and this is the way they decide to announce the order?


 thumbsdown   thumbsdown   thumbsdown 


- n1786b
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 5:52 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
It's fairly clear to me that A370 and B787-10 will be direct competitors, and it's pretty hard for me to see how SQ will find it in their interest to operate A370 and B787-9 at the same time

Unless the A370/B787-10 overlap is at the bottom of the A370 range.......

Regards
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:00 pm

Leahy is doing his sales thing again, isn't he?

If there is one thing that Airbus doesn't need much more of these days, it's bluster.

Is Leahy blustering? No one here can say for sure. Nevertheless, Leahy strikes me as a talkative type who could easily sell snow to the indigenous peoples of the Arctic -- and make them like it.

Isn't an excess of salesmanship -- overpromising the schedule of delivery for the A380 -- a possible reason that Airbus is in the mess it's in to begin with?

[Edited 2006-06-20 11:16:39]
What's fair is fair.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:06 pm

Lets wait and see what the future holds, A350/370 could kill the 787-series like 330 vs 767.

I´m not holding my breath, but I´ll keep my  crossfingers 

Micke//SWE  wave 
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AerospaceFan
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:09 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 14):
Unless the A370/B787-10 overlap is at the bottom of the A370 range.......

I think that we'd have to know whether it's technically and financially feasible for Airbus to build such an aircraft using known engine technology and still maintain or exceed the 20% fuel efficiency improvement promised by the Dreamliner. Alternatively, Airbus could contemplate future advances in powerplant technology. (This would seem to be so regardless of whether by "range" you mean the general size of the aircraft, or its fuel capacity.) In any event, it seems to me that the massive redesign of the A350 would be made even more difficult if Airbus decides to leapfrog the Dreamliner's current size, particularly insofar as it may have to wait until engine technology catches up.
What's fair is fair.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:13 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 3):
While I agree that the chances for Airbus certainly haven't improved because of SQ's B787 order, a CEO saying "The door is still open." doesn't really sound as if the chances were at 0.

Maybe so, but I also agree with this:

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 1):
if I were Airbus, I wouldn't get my hopes up on this one.

But on the other hand, let's consider that SQ might want options for their fleet replacement in the mid to longterm. Maybe at a certain point in time, if the A350 does become that A370, or if the 787-9 by some chance doesn't perform as promissed, then just maybe it could become an option. We have to remember that SQ replaces their aircraft at a very young age. Nonetheless, I have a very hard time trying to figure out SQ's intentions. That's just the way I see it. Feel free to correct me.

BTW: are these 787-9s intended for expansion or as replacement for SQ's oldest 772ER/773As?
 
dutchjet
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:46 pm

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 16):
Lets wait and see what the future holds, A350/370 could kill the 787-series like 330 vs 767.

I´m not holding my breath, but I´ll keep my

Micke//SWE

Its smart not to hold your breath on this one........SQ is now a 787 customer, end of story. Your reference to the 330 and 767 is also a poor one.....look at total 767 sales against total A330 sales and get back to me; did the A332 outsell the 764ER, yes........did the A330 out sell the 767, not by a long shot. I know you are anti-Boeing, but you cannot spin this one into an Airbus success story.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 18):

But on the other hand, let's consider that SQ might want options for their fleet replacement in the mid to longterm. Maybe at a certain point in time, if the A350 does become that A370, or if the 787-9 by some chance doesn't perform as promissed, then just maybe it could become an option. We have to remember that SQ replaces their aircraft at a very young age. Nonetheless, I have a very hard time trying to figure out SQ's intentions. That's just the way I see it. Feel free to correct me.

BTW: are these 787-9s intended for expansion or as replacement for SQ's oldest 772ER/773As?

Come one, Airbus cheerleaders........accept that SQ went with the 787 and Airbus lost the A350 order. If a pro-Boeing guy were to suggest that BA would trade its A320 fleet in for the 737NG the day after it ordered the A320, the Airbus gang would be outraged.

SQ has a long term commitment to the 777 (with additional 773ERs on order) and now selected the 787 family for its smaller needs......in Boeing fashion, the 787 will deliver, and if SQ wans to replace early build 772s, it will now look to the 787-10 for that mission......thats the was it is. SQ is an effecient carrier, and multiple fleet types are not their style.

My guess is that SQ will use the 787-9s will be used for several purposes: to add new cities out of the SIN hub, allow for daily nonstop service on thinner routes, and expansion due to the superior economics of the 787.
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:08 pm

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 7):



Quoting EbbUK (Reply 8):

I made my assessment based on what I perceived to be a change in message from Airbus considering the totality of the circumstances. After ISTAT at Orlando in March, where Mr. Udvar-Hazy of ILFC "dropped the dime" on the "old all-new A350," the message from Airbus quickly evolved into "we are listening to our customers and considering making changes." Until his remarks last week, Mr. Leahy had been silent on this matter since ISTAT. In fact, there has been much media speculation that Mr. Udvar-Hazy was actually acting on behalf of Mr. Leahy and likeminded people at Airbus. IMO, when Mr. Leahy broke his silence by saying "some outspoken customers of ours have created some confusion and the press has amplified that confusion...," he seemed to be discounting the criticisms of the "outspoken customers," and suggesting that the "old all-new A350" remained a viable concept. Certainly, I don't suffer under the burden of infallibility.  Smile Just my  twocents .
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ebbuk
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:18 pm

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 12):
Leahy : Hello SQ, this is John Leahy from Airbus.
SQ : Hi Mr. Leahy, What's up?
Leahy: Are you still interested in our A350
SQ: Not really we just ordered from Boeing
Leahy: OK thank you
  

Cheers,
PP

Going on your theory, "not really" is not a "no". There's a window there. So I would downgrade your grin to a smirk on that one

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 15):
Isn't an excess of salesmanship -- overpromising the schedule of delivery for the A380 -- a possible reason that Airbus is in the mess it's in to begin with?

I suggested something along the same lines in another thread. Though how likely is it that Leahy would promise the earth when he knows what his engineers have told him? When Airbus have failed to deliver, is it because Leahy's promise (some would say boast) or is it an organisational blunder from tech to sales and management? We may never know

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 19):
our reference to the 330 and 767 is also a poor one.....look at total 767 sales against total A330 sales and get back to me; did the A332 outsell the 764ER, yes........did the A330 out sell the 767, not by a long shot. I know you are anti-Boeing, but you cannot spin this one into an Airbus success story.

Dutchjet you're up for some mischief this morning aren't you? The statement is correct, the 330 killed off the tardis 767. You are right that the tardis 767 outsold the 330 but that was not the thread of the argument and you know it.
 
andessmf
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:32 pm

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 21):
Though how likely is it that Leahy would promise the earth when he knows what his engineers have told him? When Airbus have failed to deliver, is it because Leahy's promise (some would say boast) or is it an organisational blunder from tech to sales and management? We may never know

Being involved with engineering for 17 years now, let me tell you why I feel for the Airbus engineers and Airbus. There are many projects that I have done that require me to be almost done before I can give an exact answer to a question. Therefore, I can respond with a good deadline when the project will be done, PROVIDED NO GLITCHES SHOW UP AT THE LAST MINUTE, due to the previously said statement. And there are some glitches, even small problems, that require a total reworking of an area, just to solve the very small problem.

I have also done several projects, nothing out of the ordinary, that literally just got all fucked up, to use the adequate word. Just little by little, or with no reason at all, the project just becomes an absolute nightmare.

So as it stands right now, I couldnt even tell you if Leahy overpromised or if there are real technical and manufacturing issues. But the clients dont care about your problems, all they care about is getting the airplane.
 
ebbuk
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:19 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 4):
My point was last week Mr. Leahy seemed to be indicating that Airbus should stick with the "old all-new A350 concept," while these remarks seem to indicate the A350 design needs to be changed? I guess I expect him to be more consistent in his thinking in one week's time.

This was your original post which both RichardPrice and I sought clarification.

Below is your response

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 20):
In fact, there has been much media speculation that Mr. Udvar-Hazy was actually acting on behalf of Mr. Leahy and likeminded people at Airbus. IMO, when Mr. Leahy broke his silence by saying "some outspoken customers of ours have created some confusion and the press has amplified that confusion...," he seemed to be discounting the criticisms of the "outspoken customers," and suggesting that the "old all-new A350" remained a viable concept. Certainly, I don't suffer under the burden of infallibility.   Just my   .

Mr Leahy has not ever changed his standpoint as to the viability of the A350 has he? by your admission when the statement came out about listening to customers Leahy was quiet. The next time he spoke about the project he re-affirmed his belief in the original project.

Inconsistency is not an accusation that you can level on Mr Leahy on this matter. Your two cents have minimal value in the criticism that you are leveling against Leahy.
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:44 pm

[quote=EbbUK,reply=23]

The inconsistency is between what Mr. Leahy suggested last week, and what he seems to be suggesting this week. What is viable, the "old all-new A350" as Mr. Leahy suggested last week, or some nascent design iteration which takes in account what Mr. Chew says needs to be fixed? Why would Mr. Chew keep the "door open" on something that needs to be fixed, if Mr. Leahy isn't willing to fix it?
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trex8
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:54 pm

Quoting N1786b (Reply 13):
Isn't it a funny way for FI to announce the order?

why? its a follow on to this from 6/14
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...latest+blow+to+Airbus's+A350.html
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:59 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 24):
Why would Mr. Chew keep the "door open" on something that needs to be fixed, if Mr. Leahy isn't willing to fix it?

Because according to fellows like you the 350 has not been nailed down yet, which in your eyes is a bad thing...
On the good side, it has all room for improvement available on the market... Only a moron would rule it out now...
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ebbuk
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:00 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 24):
The inconsistency is between what Mr. Leahy suggested last week, and what he seems to be suggesting this week. What is viable, the "old all-new A350" as Mr. Leahy suggested last week, or some nascent design iteration which takes in account what Mr. Chew says needs to be fixed? Why would Mr. Chew keep the "door open" on something that needs to be fixed, if Mr. Leahy isn't willing to fix it?

Nothing incosistent here, He knows, you know,I know both are viable, which has more potential for profit? the re-design. Would Leahy want that? Of course he does but if it doesn't come then the old one is fine. Just because he was not reported as saying it in that fashion doesn't mean that he is inconsistant does it?

Sorry I get it now, you are saying because he hasn't said it in that manner it would appear inconsistant. I see now.

Still think your assessment is a bit out because you can read between the lines, like we all do  twocents 
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:16 pm

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 26):
Because according to fellows like you the 350 has not been nailed down yet, which in your eyes is a bad thing...

When did I say that? IIRC, I've said in more than a few recent threads that I thought Tim Clark's assessment of the situation from last month has a lot of merit:

Emirates is in the midst of an A350/787 evaluation with a view to completing a deal for up to 100 aircraft, and Clark has urged Airbus not to be rushed into freezing the specifications on the A350 in a bid to cut the 787’s head start.

“The airline community has made it clear to Airbus that the 787 is the better aircraft and therefore it should not be down to us to tell them the risks of continuing with an airliner that is not the best. With fuel prices as they are, we need these guys to push their research and development as far as possible. If they do that, you will find people will wait.”


http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...+integrate+A350+technology+on.html

Nevertheless, in light of SQ's seemingly snap decision last week to go with the 787, I wonder if Mr. Clark would say the same thing today?
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:20 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Well file this one under - "duh!"

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 16):
Lets wait and see what the future holds, A350/370 could kill the 787-series like 330 vs 767.

Again, with the death to Boeing chant?  Yeah sure
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
boeing767-300
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:27 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 14):
Unless the A370/B787-10 overlap is at the bottom of the A370 range.......

Regards



Quoting Solnabo (Reply 16):
Lets wait and see what the future holds, A350/370 could kill the 787-series like 330 vs 767.

I´m not holding my breath, but I´ll keep my

I've got to hand it to the Airbus cheerleaders. Even in this dark period of uncertainty and despite the fact Airbus really has no idea of product stratergy in the near future and there is really right now no A370 you are "dreaming" of a 787 killer. For goodness sake wake up and smell the coffee as 787 is about 20 "FIRM" units behind A330 deliveries today. A370 killer is possibly 2012 to the market!!!! and thats if they don't stick with old new A350 due to cost.


Given the excuses made for the woeful A346/Trent 500 combo it seems to be well accepted that the A346 loses out because the price of oil has gone up!!!

One of the main problems using A346 as an example is its comparatively high OEW. Yet you "hope" that a 787 killer(A370?) will be born using heavier materials than CRFP. How long and at what cost and with what engines could Airbus build a Twin that competes with 773ER/2LR? Even if they did it would leave the A370? optimised top big and leave it unable to compete economically with the 787 especially 788/9!

Right now according to Airbuses site Airbus A330 Deliveries The A330 (385*)as good as it is will never outsell the highly successful 767 (900*)or the 787. I think we should wait for the Farnborough announcement on what Airbus are going to do to tackle 787/777 and replace the 'dead' A340.

Whatever they come up with will be interesting but whether Airbus have the resources and finances or even ability to undertake at the present time is debatable. Given all the recent delays (A380)performance A346, A380??) and lack of product stratergy (35?7??) I bet the Airlines will be very skeptical to say the least. Singapore have answered all of the above and ordered the 787. Should it be as good as promised they will keep ordering but like Udvar-Hazy they want Airbus to sort out the inhouse problems because it benefits no one if one manufacturer is dominant and this shouldn't happen.

Even if you have no intention of ordering the oppostions product you remain interested anyhow... SQ has carefully done this and Leahy more vulnerable than ever will buy this because another 'big oppurtunity' has gone begging.

I bet you EK goes 787-10....  scratchchin 
 
n1786b
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:36 pm

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 25):
why? its a follow on to this from 6/14
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles....html

Funny, I don't remember seeing that one in print.

- n1786b
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 9:44 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
The fact that SQ has ordered the 787 greatly reduces the chances of SQ ever ordering the A350 or whatever Airbus's new midsized jet will be called.

No matter what kind of spin Airbus puts on the face of it, this sums it up raher well I think.

Airbus is grasping at whatever straws it can find at this point.
One Nation Under God
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:03 pm

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 27):
He knows, you know,I know both are viable, which has more potential for profit? the re-design.

I don't agree that the "old all-new A350" remains viable in the marketplace. The two key money men in the industry (Udvar-Hazy, ILFC & Hubschman, GECAS), joined by a loud chorus of other "industry leaders" (Mr. Chew having voted with his feet last week), have declared it a dead-letter. However, I disagree with Mr. Udvar-Hazy's notion (repeated again yeterday), that Airbus needs to have the A350/370 imbroglio sorted-out by Farnborough (see my Reply #28).
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ikramerica
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:19 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 14):
Unless the A370/B787-10 overlap is at the bottom of the A370 range.......

Here's the thing.

A370 might be better than the 773ER. We don't know.

SQ hasn't even taken their 773ER yet, having postponed it for the A380 EIS, now looking to be a dumb move for them. And they are also probably a little peeved that Airbus delays have forced them to wait on evaluating the long term direction of their fleet, which is a strike against airbus during the decision process to come, especially as SQ would be wary of being the launch customer for another product from A...

They won't be able to fully evaluate the A350/370 vs. 787-10/773ER until they are flying the 773ER. Then they will at least know how they like the 773ER as a performer, as they seem to be pretty happy with 777s over the years in general.

At that point, you'll see whether SQ takes 787-10s with the 20 options or instead books A350/370s and keeps the 20 options for follow on 789s at a later date, like they did with the 777s and the 773ER. I'm pretty sure SQ's 787 options are for "any kind they want" the same way the 777 options were.

So, in my view, SQ won't be a first off the blocks launch customer for EITHER the 350/370 or 787-10, though with secured options already, they could be a second launch customer for the 787-10 but announced at a later date.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
ebbuk
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:08 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 30):
I bet you EK goes 787-10....   

I will be the first to cheer! Airbus is too exposed to this carrier. I think the Boeing fans were first to say this and I, as a lover of Airbus, for once, agree with them

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 33):
I don't agree that the "old all-new A350" remains viable in the marketplace. The two key money men in the industry (Udvar-Hazy, ILFC & Hubschman, GECAS), joined by a loud chorus of other "industry leaders" (Mr. Chew having voted with his feet last week), have declared it a dead-letter. However, I disagree with Mr. Udvar-Hazy's notion (repeated again yeterday), that Airbus needs to have the A350/370 imbroglio sorted-out by Farnborough (see my Reply #28).

You are wrong on this one. With slots all tied up by the big blue chip customers, the smaller carriers with a need to be competitive with their bigger rivals will have to seriously look at the old A350 sweetened with favourable terms.... you'd be a fool to stick with a 767 or 343 for any longer than is necessary. So Airbus is in the scraps market with the old A350, not desirable by any stretch, but very very viable, and a steal considering the level of investment

It's all been said before and the calculations point to it being profitable.
 
B777ER
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 3):
you just might have included the fact that it's not only Airbus playing down the selection in the thread title, but also Singapore Airlines ...

Of course Signapore will say that, they want Boeing to offer competitive prices when they go back for more 787's in the future.
 
ebbuk
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting B777ER (Reply 36):
Of course Signapore will say that, they want Boeing to offer competitive prices when they go back for more 787's in the future

They should have kept quiet about the 350/370 then. Own goal for SQ. wah! wah! wah!
 
UALMMFlyer
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting B777ER (Reply 36):
Of course Signapore will say that, they want Boeing to offer competitive prices when they go back for more 787's in the future.

I agree, but not just for the future but also for the current 20+20. SQ only signed a Letter of Intent, and the price is not final until the purchase/sale agreement is signed between SQ/BA after negotiation.
Treat others like you'd like to be treated!
 
leelaw
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 35):
With slots all tied up by the big blue chip customers, the smaller carriers with a need to be competitive with their bigger rivals will have to seriously look at the old A350 sweetened with favourable terms.... you'd be a fool to stick with a 767 or 343 for any longer than is necessary. So Airbus is in the scraps market with the old A350, not desirable by any stretch, but very very viable, and a steal considering the level of investment

These potential customers still have to go to financial institutions/lenders to finance their fleets. Mr Udvar-Hazy, among the premier financiers servicing this industry, has made a critical judgement that the "old all-new A350" product concept will not maintain adequate residual value in the long-term to justify a large investment:

Udvar-Hazy said in the interview that as a leasing company attuned to an airplane as a long-term financial investment, "we want to have long-term residual value in the A350. ...We're not interested in a Band-aid reaction to the 787."

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsourc...ay?slug=boeing29&date=20060329&que

It seems reasonable to assume that other long-term lenders/financiers will reach the same conclusion and be reluctant to finance A350 fleets at commercially attractive rates as well. That's why, when Mr. Udvar-Hazy makes negative judgements about the potential residual value of an OEMs products, the effects are so insidious, as they readily travel up and down the food chain.
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ebbuk
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 39):
That's why, when Mr. Udvar-Hazy makes negative judgements about the potential residual value of an OEMs products, the effects are so insidious, as they readily travel up and down the food chain.

Totally agree with you. But that is not to say that there isn't a market out there. ILFC GECAS SALE are not the only players in the marketplace, what is to stop Airbus setting up their own (not sure if they do) and leasing in-house,

one man's poo is another's gold. Not even sure the old a350's predicament is that dire. it really isn't
 
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LTU932
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 19):
Come one, Airbus cheerleaders........accept that SQ went with the 787 and Airbus lost the A350 order.

And why are you labeling me as an Airbus cheerleader? I was being neutral about this. The points I tried to made were part of a hypothesis. If what I said will happen or not, that's a separate thing.

- Richie (who likes both Boeing and Airbus aircraft)
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 17):
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 14):
Unless the A370/B787-10 overlap is at the bottom of the A370 range.......



Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 30):
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 14):
Unless the A370/B787-10 overlap is at the bottom of the A370 range.......

Apologies to both - my point was advanced as the only hypothetical reason that SQ might find it logical to order both the 787-9 AND the A370, not as an opinion that I believed it was a foregone conclusion.

Cheerleading was not intended (that one for Boeing767-300)  Yeah sure.

Regards
 
Adria
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:18 am

but is it really good for SQ to have aircraft from only one manufacturer? I would expect that they keep both in their fleet (not counting the A380).
 
andessmf
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting EbbUK (Reply 40):
Not even sure the old a350's predicament is that dire. it really isn't

Here is IMHO part of the issue. The A330 is a good plane, the A350 (or anything that improves on the A330) is an even better plane. The problem is that when compared to the 787, this better plane doesnt look so good.
 
Picard
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:38 am

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 30):
Right now according to Airbuses site Airbus A330 Deliveries The A330 (385*)as good as it is will never outsell the highly successful 767 (900*)or the 787. I think we should wait for the Farnborough announcement on what Airbus are going to do to tackle 787/777 and replace the 'dead' A340.

A330 total sales 668 to 2005, from EIS - 39.29 sales per year
767 total sales 966 ro 2005, from EIS - 38.64 sales per year

Might not outsell but has a better average  Smile, like all things its how you look at it.
 
katekebo
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:47 am

I think you are taking Mr. Leahy's word way too seriously. What do you expect to hear from a guy who just a little over two years ago said that airlines where showing no interest in the B787, and that A330 was going to easily beat the "Chinese plastic copy". This gentleman has ZERO credibility.
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:23 am

Quoting Adria (Reply 43):
but is it really good for SQ to have aircraft from only one manufacturer? I would expect that they keep both in their fleet (not counting the A380).

They did not have a problem for the past decade. I am pretty sure they have pretty high bargaining position to squeeze Boeing to its last juice.

Quoting Picard (Reply 45):
A330 total sales 668 to 2005, from EIS - 39.29 sales per year
767 total sales 966 ro 2005, from EIS - 38.64 sales per year

Wait in several year once 787 eis and the A330 order trickling down, then your average could mean something.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
ikramerica
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:27 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 42):
Cheerleading was not intended

You know what? Maybe people were just making an assumption based on your long history of doing so. Have you changed overnight? If so, you need to notify people...  Wink
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Picard
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RE: Airbus Plays Down SIA 787-9 Selection

Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:19 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 47):
Quoting Picard (Reply 45):
A330 total sales 668 to 2005, from EIS - 39.29 sales per year
767 total sales 966 ro 2005, from EIS - 38.64 sales per year

Wait in several year once 787 eis and the A330 order trickling down, then your average could mean something.

Cheers,
PP

What ever happens to the A330 the same for the 767 my friend , think before you post .

[Edited 2006-06-21 00:20:08]