rjpieces
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CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:35 am

Any CO folks know which International routes are most profitable for them? I'm curious if the new lucrative service to India and China are becoming some of their strongest routes...

Any information is appreciated.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
CALMSP
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:37 am

DEL is a huge money maker for us right now..............if we had the planes....I'm sure we would add a second route. TLV is very big for us, not only pax wise, but cargo is just a large moneymaker for us. so much so that we are chartering cargo planes to carry our cargo TLV-JFK.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:40 am

No Continental folks in this forum don't know any more about which routes are profitable and which are not than anyone else. Any information employees receive is public information.

Confidential, internal information rarely makes its way onto these boards.

Airlines do not generally publicly disclose the profitability of any particular route.
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STT757
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:04 am

From what I've read EWR-TLV is near or at the top, also IAH-LGW. IAH-London performs very well because of the Oil traffic transiting through London on the way to the North Sea, West African and Southern former Soviet Republic oil fields.

The oil traffic is why Houston is the only US City to get flights on BA to both LGW (nonstop) and LHR (one stop via ORD), IAH-AMS is another big oil route with KLM flying twice daily and CO 10Xs weekly.
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United Airline
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:06 am

What about HKG-EWR? From what I heard this route is always full and it is very profitable too
 
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STT757
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:10 am

Here's a five page article from a week or two ago about how CO makes money on their International routes.

http://www.nj.com/business/ledger/in...952050931930.xml&coll=1&thispage=1
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
LAXintl
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:16 am

Cant tell you about current status with fuel at $70/bbl however during early 2005 I took part in a study that covered several US carrier international operations. The following international showed as being overall profitable for CO in 2004.

Atlantic
-------
EWR-LGW
EWR-BHX
EWR-DUB
EWR-GLA
EWR-MAN
EWR-AMS
EWR-LIS
EWR-MAD
EWR-MXP
EWR-TLV

Asia
----
IAH-NRT

Latin America
-------------
EWR-GUA
EWR-LIM
IAH-PTY
IAH-GRU

Keep in mind not all routes were profitable all quarters. Also many variables such as currency exchange rates play into the mix can cause one route to swing from profit to loss rather easily even with all other variable such as yield and loads remaining steady.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ramerinianair
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 12:15 pm

Laxintl,
Are they in any specific order?
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A330323X
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:12 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Any CO folks know which International routes are most profitable for them? I'm curious if the new lucrative service to India and China are becoming some of their strongest routes...

Any information is appreciated.

A recent Lehman Brothers analysis listed the following as being CO's most profitable international routes, for the twelve months ending June 2005:

IAH-LGW $50.1 million
IAH-NRT $46.4 million
EWR-TLV $43.8 million
IAH-GRU $41.4 million
EWR-GRU $31.8 million

And, if you're curious, the international routes listed as having lost the most money:

EWR-BHX ($4.8 million)
IAH-GYE ($2.5 million)
EWR-STI ($1.5 million)
IAH-AUA ($1.2 million)
EWR-BRS ($1.0 million)
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COfaninBOS
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:17 pm

Interesting information. Would have never guessed that two of the top three and 3 of the top 5 would be IAH routes!

Also interesting to note that the two supposed money losing routes from IAH are to GYE and AUA. Both of these just run a few times a week depending upon the season. Seems like they'd drop AUA from IAH if it loses that much on just a 2-3 times per week basis.
 
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fxramper
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 3:26 pm

IAHcsr or the manager on here from CLE can tell you...

EWR-TLV is money money and money.  dollarsign 

If they had the metal, the rumor is a third flight would fly.

Cheers.
 
shanderawx
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:47 pm

Do the above costs include cargo charges?
GYE flights bring in a lot of flowers.
 
dutchjet
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 6:57 pm

Strange, no one mentioned the EWR-BRU route, which is supposed to be a huge money maker for CO; many seem to think its one of the most profitable EWR-Europe routes. The loads are very good, and the bizfirst cabin goes out at 35/35 (and no free upgrades here) on just about a daily basis.
 
nycflyer
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 10:43 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
also IAH-LGW. IAH-London performs very well because of the Oil traffic transiting through London on the way to the North Sea, West African and Southern former Soviet Republic oil fields.

why does IAH-LGW do so well? I didn't think there were many connecting opportunities there. it would seem you'd need to switch to LHR to catch most connections to oil-rich countries. correct me if I'm wrong.
 
ANother
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
Airlines do not generally publicly disclose the profitability of any particular route.

 checkmark 

Don't forget that CO is a network carrier - revenue (and profitability) per customer is more important than revenue (and profitability) per sector.

For example BRS-EWR may be loss-making, but if that flight is feeding CO domestic flights ex-EWR at adequate yields the overall contribution would be positive (this is hypothetical - I know nothing about this route's actual performance)
 
CALMSP
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:40 pm

well, not only is the IAH-LGW route have many oil industry reps, but the contract that we have with Halliburton/KBR on their way to the middle east is outstanding.........they pay a very high premium price........for those that dont fly up front, are paying top fare in coach.........
 
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yellowtail
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Tue Jun 20, 2006 11:41 pm

I would be interested to see what the most profitable routes are based on profit margin (as opposed to total cash) per route was. It would be easier to compare a 737 route to a 777 route.

I know their route here (BZE) is very profitable, but because it is a smaller plane can't generate the HUGE revenue of maybe TLV. I know their IAH-LAX route is always ram jam with transfer LatAm Pax, so obviouly better yields there....
When in doubt, hold on to your altitude. No-one has ever collided with the sky.
 
CALMSP
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:11 am

DEN-IAH is also a good money maker for us as well. Kind of surprising when you look at the possibilities.
 
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airzim
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:26 am

TLV, DEL, IAH-LGW/NRT are the most consistently strongest markets.

PEK is not doing that great. The J cabin is OK but the Y traffic is not great. There isn't alot of premium Y demand to Beijing. Hong Kong has similar problems. I would imagine that once the 787's arrive those will be some of the early markets to receive them.

Delta is squeezing yields in Europe because of the recent capacity dump
 
bobnwa
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 2):
No Continental folks in this forum don't know any more about which routes are profitable and which are not than anyone else. Any information employees receive is public information.

Confidential, internal information rarely makes its way onto these boards.

Airlines do not generally publicly disclose the profitability of any particular route.

Agree with everything you said. Members of this board, airline employees or not, do not have access to this type info. Only a very few employees of any airline have this info and they DO NOT publish it on this board. Giving opinions is fine, in fact that is the purpose of this board, but please do not report it as fact!
 
CaptainJon
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:46 am

Well I was on EWR-TLV / TLV-EWR recently and it was rather full, i dont think there was an empty seat on the plane actually. Lot more crowded than I expected, it was mid-may too so schools were still in session.
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 8):
A recent Lehman Brothers analysis listed the following as being CO's most profitable international routes, for the twelve months ending June 2005:

IAH-LGW $50.1 million
IAH-NRT $46.4 million
EWR-TLV $43.8 million
IAH-GRU $41.4 million
EWR-GRU $31.8 million

And, if you're curious, the international routes listed as having lost the most money:

EWR-BHX ($4.8 million)
IAH-GYE ($2.5 million)
EWR-STI ($1.5 million)
IAH-AUA ($1.2 million)
EWR-BRS ($1.0 million)



Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 19):
Agree with everything you said. Members of this board, airline employees or not, do not have access to this type info. Only a very few employees of any airline have this info and they DO NOT publish it on this board. Giving opinions is fine, in fact that is the purpose of this board, but please do not report it as fact!

Thus we have the Lehman numbers given above as a possible best case to look at, and argue about...

Ciao, and Hook 'em Horns,
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rjpieces
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:25 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 2):
Airlines do not generally publicly disclose the profitability of any particular route.

I found what I was lookin for in the below post.

Quoting A330323X (Reply 8):
A recent Lehman Brothers analysis listed the following as being CO's most profitable international routes, for the twelve months ending June 2005:

IAH-LGW $50.1 million
IAH-NRT $46.4 million
EWR-TLV $43.8 million
IAH-GRU $41.4 million
EWR-GRU $31.8 million

And, if you're curious, the international routes listed as having lost the most money:

EWR-BHX ($4.8 million)
IAH-GYE ($2.5 million)
EWR-STI ($1.5 million)
IAH-AUA ($1.2 million)
EWR-BRS ($1.0 million)

Thank you, Ed. That is exactly what I was looking for. Question though...Is this just the total revenue figure? Because if CO operates 2X daily on EWR-TLV but makes a similiar amount of money as the once daily IAH-NRT...Doesn't that mean that IAH-NRT is way more profitable on a per seat basis?

Quoting CALMSP (Reply 1):
TLV is very big for us, not only pax wise, but cargo is just a large moneymaker for us. so much so that we are chartering cargo planes to carry our cargo TLV-JFK.

I had not heard that...Is this just for the summer? Do you know what airline is beign chartered for this? And why not send them to EWR?

Quoting Airzim (Reply 18):
TLV, DEL, IAH-LGW/NRT are the most consistently strongest markets.

CO must be very happy with DEL if it's already matching some of the routes they have flown for years already...

Quoting Airzim (Reply 18):
PEK is not doing that great. The J cabin is OK but the Y traffic is not great. There isn't alot of premium Y demand to Beijing. Hong Kong has similar problems. I would imagine that once the 787's arrive those will be some of the early markets to receive them.

Thanks for the info.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
dutch122
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:25 am

And what about IAH-AMS v.v. has been profitable since they started it.

Maybe that's also the reason again to start 3 x weekly again an extra flight on Fr, Sa & Mo.

dutch122
 
jyatlantic
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:43 am

Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Any CO folks know which International routes are most profitable for them? I'm curious if the new lucrative service to India and China are becoming some of their strongest routes...

Any information is appreciated.

THat's classified information.
 
frequentflyer
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:18 am

Am curious how EWR-CDG and IAH-CDG are doing, anybody knows?

Thanks

Pat
Take off and live
 
LAXintl
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 22):
Question though...Is this just the total revenue figure? Because if CO operates 2X daily on EWR-TLV but makes a similiar amount of money as the once daily IAH-NRT...Doesn't that mean that IAH-NRT is way more profitable on a per seat basis?

Good question... From the list I had derived based on 2004 numbers the routes were defined by margin. So its very possible for a 737 flight to be defined as "more profitable" then a 777 which obviously derives greater overall revenue.

Quoting A330323X (Reply 8):
EWR-BHX ($4.8 million)

Our list in many ways match, however I can figure out how EWR-BHX can be listed as profitable on mine and loss on yours? Wonder if what happened to the route between my sample Jan-Dec04 versus Jun04-Jun05 of your sample? Big shift in equipment or frequencies leading to the loss??
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jetdeltamsy
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:25 am

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 22):
Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 2):
Airlines do not generally publicly disclose the profitability of any particular route.

I found what I was lookin for in the below post.

Quoting A330323X (Reply 8):
A recent Lehman Brothers analysis listed the following as being CO's most profitable international routes, for the twelve months ending June 2005:

IAH-LGW $50.1 million
IAH-NRT $46.4 million
EWR-TLV $43.8 million
IAH-GRU $41.4 million
EWR-GRU $31.8 million

Yea. Whatever. I stand by my statement that individual route profitability is private, internal information that carriers generally do not disclose.

These are probably numbers cooked up by Lehman Bros. They may be dead right, but none of this is information Continental made public.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
ramerinianair
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:39 am

It also depends where CO splits the ticket fare. Most new cities served from EWR are very reliant on connecting traffic. Example: If you buy a ticket to MAN from LAX, your routing would be LAX-EWR-MAN. What portion of the revenue is claimed under LAX-EWR and which portion is credited to EWR-MAN?
Also, newer numbers will show that MAN/BHX/SNN/DUB and other routes in the UK are suffering with low yields. There is a lot of new competition out there in these markets.
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
mainMAN
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 26):
Our list in many ways match, however I can figure out how EWR-BHX can be listed as profitable on mine and loss on yours? Wonder if what happened to the route between my sample Jan-Dec04 versus Jun04-Jun05 of your sample? Big shift in equipment or frequencies leading to the loss??

Last summer and possibly 2004 EWR-BHX operated twice daily, and this year it's down to 10 weekly (if that tells you anything!)
 
rdwelch
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 3):
From what I've read EWR-TLV is near or at the top, also IAH-LGW



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 15):
well, not only is the IAH-LGW route have many oil industry reps, but the contract that we have with Halliburton/KBR on their way to the middle east is outstanding.........they pay a very high premium price........for those that dont fly up front, are paying top fare in coach.........



Quoting CALMSP (Reply 17):
DEN-IAH is also a good money maker for us as well. Kind of surprising when you look at the possibilities.

I'm not sure about the profitability, but my son is flying DEN-IAH-LGW tomorrow. The DEN-IAH leg is pretty full, but the IAH-LGW leg is airtight. 772ER with one seat left, middle very back.

Gus
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dutchjet
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:24 am

I will keep this simple, there is a lot of misinformation being presented here. Lots of interesting thoughts and analysis, but lots of incorrect conclusions.

As pointed out, CO does not release this kind of info and we are guessing....thats fine, but realize that this (including the Lehman numbers) are guess work.

And, DL's trans-atlantic buildup has not affected CO's fares......not yet anyway, ticket revenue is up in recent periods.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:27 am

It is indeed possible to determine profitability for airline routes with a reasonable degree of confidence and that is why investment groups release information like what was cited here. US airlines provide required revenue information to the DOT for each segment they fly. They also provide cost information on a regional basis. Therefore, it is possible to know with a fairly high degree of accuracy the revenues for a specific market. Cost information cannot be determined precisely at a market level but it doesn’t take too much work for an airline analyst to be able to take regional cost information with specific city adjustments and merge it with revenue information to determine profitability.

Also, the system contribution argument doesn’t usually work with international routes because of their length. A domestic segment might indeed not make money but it can be justified because of the connections it provides to higher value segments on the network. International routes are the most expensive routes to operate for an airline; if an international route doesn’t make money, it is not likely that the portion of any domestic routes that support it will make money either.
 
rjpieces
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 31):
thats fine, but realize that this (including the Lehman numbers) are guess work.



Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 27):
I stand by my statement that individual route profitability is private, internal information that carriers generally do not disclose.

These are probably numbers cooked up by Lehman Bros. They may be dead right, but none of this is information Continental made public.

Of course it's private internal information. But airline analysts do this for a living, and information they release to investors must be very close to reality.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
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LTU932
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:53 am

How's SJO doing for CO from both EWR and IAH?
 
COewrAAtysAZ
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:06 am

I'm really surprised that EWR-FCO has not been mentioned. In my opinion, it is one of the most expensive routes has (summer always over $1100 and during the winters it is always over $600). Flights are ALWAYS full when I go on them, and it could be debated that Italy is one of the most popular destinations in Europe.
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murrayusa
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:16 am

If I recall correctly in the book "Worst to First", Mr. Gordon Bethune says at the first chapter that IAH LGW is the most profitable flight. I believe it! I have traveled this flight over 7 times in the past 10 years. It like almost all flights out of IAH are completely full. Houston is a big city with a very large British Ex Pat population. I think it one of the largest in the US. Plus the Oil Company Employees normally take up 25%-50% of the plane. I wish that Continental flew a 747-400 to LGW with a first class comparable to BA. I like to dream fluffy 
 
LO231
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:22 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 12):
Strange, no one mentioned the EWR-BRU route, which is supposed to be a huge money maker for CO; many seem to think its one of the most profitable EWR-Europe routes. The loads are very good, and the bizfirst cabin goes out at 35/35 (and no free upgrades here) on just about a daily basis.

My thoughts exactly...

Regards,
LO231
Got both LO 788 frames already, next LO E95 and 734 BRU-WAW-BRU
 
787kq
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:40 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
Of course it's private internal information. But airline analysts do this for a living, and information they release to investors must be very close to reality.

 thumbsup 
 
masseybrown
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting RJpieces (Reply 33):
Of course it's private internal information. But airline analysts do this for a living, and information they release to investors must be very close to reality.

Maybe... Their stock predictions are often far from reality, so we can infer that their data analyses are often faulty as well. I'd say it's more likely that they get specific route data from some insider.
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting COewrAAtysAZ (Reply 35):
Flights are ALWAYS full when I go on them, and it could be debated that Italy is one of the most popular destinations in Europe.

You can't base full flights for profitable. Our LAX-PPT-AKL-SYD flights were full. They weren't profitable. Yield wasn't there. It is also the same for other int'l routes which we no longer fly.

PPT (and a few others) is missed.
You can't cure stupid
 
klwright69
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:47 am

Quoting A330323X (Reply 8):
Quoting RJpieces (Thread starter):
Any CO folks know which International routes are most profitable for them? I'm curious if the new lucrative service to India and China are becoming some of their strongest routes...

Any information is appreciated.

A recent Lehman Brothers analysis listed the following as being CO's most profitable international routes, for the twelve months ending June 2005:

IAH-LGW $50.1 million
IAH-NRT $46.4 million
EWR-TLV $43.8 million
IAH-GRU $41.4 million
EWR-GRU $31.8 million

And, if you're curious, the international routes listed as having lost the most money:

EWR-BHX ($4.8 million)
IAH-GYE ($2.5 million)
EWR-STI ($1.5 million)
IAH-AUA ($1.2 million)
EWR-BRS ($1.0 million)

Indeed interesting information. However it doesn't all add up. If BHX is such a dud, why does it get more service than BRS?

Also if flights to GRU so lucrative, why on earth does CO use the 767-200 instead of upgrading them to larger aircraft?

How could IAH-AUA be such a poor performer since it isn't even daily? Why is it even still around in current operation conditions?
 
COewrAAtysAZ
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RE: CO's Most Profitable International Routes?

Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:28 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 40):
You can't base full flights for profitable. Our LAX-PPT-AKL-SYD flights were full. They weren't profitable. Yield wasn't there. It is also the same for other int'l routes which we no longer fly.

You are absolutely right, and I knew not to base it solely on load factors. Something about that route, though, knowing more than just load factor makes me believe it is a good one.
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