CHI787ORD
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India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:15 am

Now that DL has announced JFK-BOM, the more I fel that UA is losing a great opportunity in India. UA has consistently been known as the #1 US carrier to Asia, but without India (now being called "The New China") UA's network is incomplete. I know this thread has been done many times before, but I still want to read more discussions on various rumors we have heard concerning UA and their India plans, and also what the aviation pundits on this board think about what would be best for UA when considering India.
 
commavia
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:19 am

While I definitely agree with your basic premise that India represents a whole in the United network (especially considering that now ever single other U.S. competitor flies there), I question whether United could viably serve the market. Flying via a European hub (presumably Frankfurt or Heathrow) presents problems as it's no longer competitive with U.S. airlines' nonstop offerings, plus slots would be an issue at Heathrow and Lufthansa would be an issue at Frankfurt. However, if nonstop is the way to go, what routes could United fly? Perhaps Chicago-Delhi nonstop, or San Francisco-Delhi nonstop, or Dulles-Delhi nonstop? I believe United tried Chicago-Delhi once already, but may have jumped the gun too early on that market. Now, they may have missed their shot, as American is already established in the market, and I question whether Chicago-India could truly support two daily flights. Could San Francisco or Dulles support a nonstop to India? Maybe, I don't know.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:22 am

United was set to begin Chicago to Delhi service before the bankruptcy.

From what I read about India, the country is emerging from it's poverty stricken history and is slowly remaking itself into a democratic and economic powerhouse.

I've been to Bombay, New Delhi and Bangalore within the last 10 years. All 3 struck me as desperately poor places.

It will be interesting to see where the country and international air service is in another 5 years.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
CHI787ORD
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 1):
I believe United tried Chicago-Delhi once already, but may have jumped the gun too early on that market. Now, they may have missed their shot, as American is already established in the market, and I question whether Chicago-India could truly support two daily flights. Could San Francisco or Dulles support a nonstop to India

I heard before that UA was considering ORD-DEL with a BOM extension. I think under those circumstances it could've worked, similar to UA in Brazil with GRU and GIG. However, now that DL has a nonstop, what about a routing such as ORD-DEL-BLR? I like the sound of that.
 
CHI787ORD
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 2):
From what I read about India, the country is emerging from it's poverty stricken history and is slowly remaking itself into a democratic and economic powerhouse.

I've been to Bombay, New Delhi and Bangalore within the last 10 years. All 3 struck me as desperately poor places.

It will be interesting to see where the country and international air service is in another 5 years.

If you're even more interested, check out this weeks issue in TIME, the cover story is all about emerging India and the ramifications it will have around the world.
 
AADC10
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:48 am

It looks like UA will take a wait and see attitude. Obviously UA has served Inida from time to time but becasue of the open skies agreements and the new flights, the market seems to be overserved in the short term.

The other problem is that only their 744s have the range to reach India from the U.S., and just barely at that. Keeping it full would be difficult. At this point, they would probably want to focus on China and keep enough planes available for a flight to Guangzhou.
 
kkfla737
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:49 am

United served Delhi rom 1996 or so until 1999 as part of the round world service (UA 1/2). United did use a Heathrow slot on the LHR-DEL leg. UA planned to restart service to Delhi nonstop from Chicago on Oct 31, 2001 and in fact heavily advertised the service but 9/11 happened and the service was shelved.
 
pnqiad
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting CHI787ORD (Reply 3):
However, now that DL has a nonstop, what about a routing such as ORD-DEL-BLR? I like the sound of that.

I think UA has already missed the bus on ORD-DEL considering AA is already established in that market and doubt if there will be enough yields on that route to support 2x daily non-stops. Also, 1-stop (that too within India) to BLR wouldn't be too attractive.

On the other hand, if UA could launch IAD-DEL or IAD-BOM or IAD-BLR (don't know if their T7 have that kind of range) - there would be hardly any competition and I would guess they could get some decent yields there too. 744 could make that but would be too big to justify a daily non-stop IMO.

If non-stop is not possible - an extension of IAD-KWI could be researched into if they have 5th freedom ex-KWI. Though West Asia -India sector is already crowded.
 
behramjee
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:13 am

UA should NOT fly from ORD...it should fly IAD-DEL thus serving a niche market from the IAD/BWI area...plus then via IAD connect onwards pax to US domestic and Canadian destinations.
 
jaysit
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:24 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 2):
I've been to Bombay, New Delhi and Bangalore within the last 10 years. All 3 struck me as desperately poor places.

Perhaps from your American perspective. But the presence of large shanty towns doesn't negate the fact that there are tens of millions of Indians with a standard of living equal to that in the West, most of whom live in Delhi, Bombay and Bangalore. These are the people who are filling up those 747s to India.

But getting back to the topic at hand, if Jet ever enter the US market with nonstops and are a part of Star, then UA could provide feed from such hubs as IAD, ORD or SFO. In any case, the passenger would be better served by a long Jet Airways flight than on United.

[Edited 2006-06-20 22:26:29]
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:22 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 9):
Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 2):
I've been to Bombay, New Delhi and Bangalore within the last 10 years. All 3 struck me as desperately poor places.

Perhaps from your American perspective. But the presence of large shanty towns doesn't negate the fact that there are tens of millions of Indians with a standard of living equal to that in the West, most of whom live in Delhi, Bombay and Bangalore. These are the people who are filling up those 747s to India.

But getting back to the topic at hand,

My remarks were completely on topic. As for my "American" perspective, i have travelled the planet for 25 years for my job. I think I am reasonably qualified to make such observations.

I, like many in the west and far east, are deeply moved when we see the poverty in India. I have been there. I have seen it. There is no equal, in terms of the sheer number of desperately poor people anywhere in the world.

That being said, my remarks that you did not address indicate that the economy is booming and wealth is beginning to happen there. That's great. I don't imagine any airline would intentionally establish new service on any route that was not economically viable. Clearly there is money to be made in the Indian market.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
ualcsr
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:14 am

There was a "rumor" posted in another thread recently about possible NRT-BLR service.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8):
UA should NOT fly from ORD...it should fly IAD-DEL thus serving a niche market from the IAD/BWI area...plus then via IAD connect onwards pax to US domestic and Canadian destinations.

I agree. AA is already serving DEL from ORD while IAD-India service on a US carrier is virgin territory. I think UA's future international expansion will concentrate on IAD and it already seems that the airline has made a commitment to grow there, rather than in Chicago.
 
londonlady71
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:17 am

UA used to go to india and it was one service that ceased when they went bankrupt.

Jet airways will join star and I guess codeshares are maybe more likely.
 
ualcsr
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:25 am

Quoting Londonlady71 (Reply 12):
UA used to go to india and it was one service that ceased when they went bankrupt

The bankruptcy filing was on December 9, 2002; I'm almost certain that UA shelved the proposed ORD-DEL, which was to begin in October 2001, because of 9/11, not bankruptcy.
 
USPIT10L
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:42 am

Quoting Kkfla737 (Reply 6):
United served Delhi rom 1996 or so until 1999 as part of the round world service (UA 1/2). United did use a Heathrow slot on the LHR-DEL leg. UA planned to restart service to Delhi nonstop from Chicago on Oct 31, 2001 and in fact heavily advertised the service but 9/11 happened and the service was shelved.

Actually, kkfla737, UA started service to India in 1995, and ran it until 1999. It was then restarted again in May of 2001, only to be shelved right after 9/11. You are correct about ORD-DEL, it was scheduled to start in October of 2001. Once UA gets back to profitability and orders new aircraft, we should see UA in India, but not until then.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
Bicoastal
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:54 am

United has no lift to fly to India without cutting a route somewhere else. I still haven't figured out which flights they are deleting/adjusting to add Kuwait City. United needs to buy more planes before expanding. Most of the routes they've added recently are Express routes. Tilton has said they aren't ordering planes until 2007 when United's debt to equity ratio improves.
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Nimish
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:11 am

Quoting Londonlady71 (Reply 12):
Jet airways will join star and I guess codeshares are maybe more likely.

OT - but is there any substance behind this statement? Or is it a rumour (similar to the one that says AI is looking to join Star)?
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Nimish
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:22 am

As I said in the other thread (on DL's JFK-BOM):

Since DL/CO/AA have started US east coast/mid-west -> India flights, UA should look at a West Coast -> India flight (and use their hub at NRT).

There is good potential for West-coast to India services via Asia, plus UA has a great hub at NRT that they can leverage. While not a non-stop, it beats two stops from airlines like TG/SQ/MH etc. (I think only CX, CI, KE provide a one-stop experience).

UA's gain will certainly be a loss to *A partner SQ (who does massive amounts of US West coast - India traffic).
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BigGSFO
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:51 am

What's really missing is a West Coast (USA)-India flight and UA is the perfect choice for this. There are plenty of non-stop options east of the Mississippi, but nohing west. UA, IMO, could do very well with SFO-India.
 
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:02 pm

Im not sure if UAL's 777-200ERs or 747-400s have the range but to me if UAL wants in on India SFO is their best option.
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UnitedFirst
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 2:30 pm

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 15):
United has no lift to fly to India without cutting a route somewhere else. I still haven't figured out which flights they are deleting/adjusting to add Kuwait City.

I think what some people seem to be forgetting with regards to the new KWI service is that it's only 3x weekly. Such a flight would only demand 1 777 for the service at most. I would think that if UA can tighten up its 777 schedules, especially through a hub like IAD where 777s are coming and going regularly for trans-Atlantic flights, and often cycling back into the domestic system for flights to other hubs like ORD, scheduling another 777 flight shouldn't be that hard.

However, it is evident that if United wants to expand further, certain routes will have to go in favor of what could be more solid performers.

Derek
 
UAL777UK
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:47 pm

When UA go back to India and not if, I suspect it will be from the West Coast (SFO), feeding through NRT but I would not Rule out a direct flight to BOM/BLR with a shuttle service to either. When they decide to do it is another thing as they dont have the metal and before we see India back we are likely to see CAN first being a destination UA has been seeking for a while now.
 
TL925
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:59 pm

Barring the A340-500 and B777-200LR, I don't think any aircraft can fly West Coast to India non-stop. I could be mistaken, but I think that one reason the likes of Kingfisher, Air India, etc have ordered these aircraft are for these purposes.
 
FLY777UAL
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:10 pm

Here is a seim-interesting article discussing the Indian market's importance to United:

http://www.expresstravelworld.com/200606/market04.shtml

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
 
Nimish
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:51 pm

Quoting FLY777UAL (Reply 23):

From: http://www.expresstravelworld.com/200606/market04.shtml

"Air fares need to stabilise in the wake of massive capacity addition following the deregulation on the Indo-US route. These are simply unviable at current levels. Also, the duration to get a US visa is simply unacceptable. This is a matter of great concern."

I don't buy the second part at all. What has the duration to get a US visa got to do with United starting service to India? Sure - it takes 6 months to get a visa these days, but what that means is that companies are now planning 6 months in advance when possible, or sending alternate persons (who have a valid visa) instead. Besides, United will expect to cater more to the US originating traveller (given UA are strong in the US and can expect to get a lot of feed from the US), and these pax are unconcerned with delays at the US embassies in India.

The first part of the article (unviable at current levels) also does not make much sense - crappy service is unviable at any level (look at DL's decision to scrap the one stops on 767s via CDG). But United have a decent product (esp the Y+), and a great feed in the US, so they should be able to do well.

I would hope the only reason for UA's delay in starting India is the lack of the right equipment. Anything else does not really make sense.

Or maybe UA believes that either of AI/9W will join *A and UA can then use the open-skies via loads of code shares. That still seems a long way off.
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londonlady71
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:05 pm

Quoting Ualcsr (Reply 13):
Quoting Londonlady71 (Reply 12):
UA used to go to india and it was one service that ceased when they went bankrupt

The bankruptcy filing was on December 9, 2002; I'm almost certain that UA shelved the proposed ORD-DEL, which was to begin in October 2001, because of 9/11, not bankruptcy.

sorry I wasnt talking about a direct from usa route I was talking about the one that started in heathrow....I believe that was stopped as a money cutting exercise.....still UA into india just in a slightly different way!

Quoting Nimish (Reply 16):
OT - but is there any substance behind this statement? Or is it a rumour (similar to the one that says AI is looking to join Star)?

yes there is substance to this  Smile
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:10 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 2):
It will be interesting to see where the country and international air service is in another 5 years

LINK

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Nimish
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:15 pm

Quoting Londonlady71 (Reply 25):
yes there is substance to this

Cool! Good to know that *A and 9W are making some progress. Any indicative timelines? 9W will be a huge asset to *A.
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L1011Lover
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:14 pm

Doesn´t United already have a stronghold on India through Star Alliance and Lufthansa???

India is one huge LH market as they serve five destinations there from FRA: Delhi (DEL), Mumbai (BOM), Hyderabad (HYD), Chennai (MAA), Bangalore (BLR) on a daily basis, plus a daily A340 service from MUC to DEL

And United and Lufthansa flights from various US airports feed, connect and therefore support those flights that are always packed.

Isn´t that what airline alliances were intended for in the first place? Team up, using each others stronghold eliminating the need to fly everywhere?
LH for instance abandoned Australia for good as they were never able to make a profit in the market but still serve Australia and New Zealand through Star Alliance partners. Same goes with South America where LH abandoned many cities they´ve previously served and now have codeshare services. Only EZE, GRU and CCS are now served by LH flights the rest is codeshare.

So why should United even bother to fly to India? This isn´t ironic but a real question.

Though I agree that a SFO to India nonstop service would make sense in a way. But I guess LH wouldn´t be too happy about it. A lot of connecting passengers to India from the West coast would be lost!

Best regards

L1011Lover
 
Nimish
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Wed Jun 21, 2006 10:57 pm

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 28):
So why should United even bother to fly to India? This isn´t ironic but a real question.


Because UA/LH flights between US & India are not sufficient to meet the demand and UA pax often cannot get tickets on this sector (much to the delight of non *A carriers like BA, DL, AF, KL, KE etc. (and soon EK and team)).

UA would launch flights on this sector to supplement existing services in code-share with LH, not to replace them. Whether there's too much capacity is a question with varied answers
i) Too much capacity on one-or-two-stops via the US - yes
ii) Too much capacity on non-stops from the US - No (but UA might not have the aircraft for this)
iii) Too much capacity on one-stops from West Coast - India - No (this is what seems to make the most short term sense).
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aseem
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:51 am

not sure whether been asked before, does UA has fifth freedom flights ex-NRT. If so why not SFO-NRT-DEL/BLR? Not much competition here.
rgds
VT-ASJ
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Bicoastal
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting UnitedFirst (Reply 20):
often cycling back into the domestic system for flights to other hubs like ORD, scheduling another 777 flight shouldn't be that hard.

United needs those widebody domestic legs to move all of the cargo they fly into Dulles and Chicago from Europe. While some of it is trucked out, there's tons and tons in containers and on pallets that need to be moved further inland or to the West Coast. They can't fit it all into a 320 or RJ.  Smile
Airliners.net has many forums. It has spell check and search functions. Use them before posting!
 
ChicagoFlyer
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:23 am

Quoting Nimish (Reply 24):

The first part of the article (unviable at current levels) also does not make much sense - crappy service is unviable at any level (look at DL's decision to scrap the one stops on 767s via CDG). But United have a decent product (esp the Y+), and a great feed in the US, so they should be able to do well.

How much are YOU willing to pay for the flight? I heard on the grapevine that AA fills their planes ORD-DEL but cannot make money--it takes too much damned fuel to operate a flight that long. Let's do some simple math:

ORD-DEL is 7475 miles. Let's say that to make the flight viable the RASM has to be 10�, and load factor is 80%, so we have 12.5� per mile Yield -- multiply this by 2x distance and you get $1870 revenue to airline, add tax, and we are looking at about $2050 average fare paid by passenger (this routing probably stretches the 777ER's capacity to the limit, so I doubt they can get much cargo on the route). I think it would be hard to achieve.... even for UA! (not least because the Indians in general are extremely adept at bargaining and searching for the lowest price.) And UA's costs are probably even higher.

You may still start the route knowing it loses $, but hoping that 1) Fuel prices come down 2) fares come up and 3) there's some inherent "strategic value" from operating in India.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting L1011Lover (Reply 28):
Though I agree that a SFO to India nonstop service would make sense in a way. But I guess LH wouldn´t be too happy about it. A lot of connecting passengers to India from the West coast would be lost!

Thats business...If UA can see an oppertunity to offer a service which in my mind the West Coast is crying out for then they need to operate it........sooner rather than later!
 
stealthpilot
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:59 am

Quoting Aseem (Reply 30):
not sure whether been asked before, does UA has fifth freedom flights ex-NRT. If so why not SFO-NRT-DEL/BLR? Not much competition here.

Apparently UA does have 5th freedom rights from NRT to any country that the US has bilateral with (thus including India).  yes 
However, if I remember reading another thread correctly, the 5th freedom rights would only be for local BLR-NRT traffic-- and not the NRT-USA traffic.

JL (soon to be One World) flies DEL-NRT 3x weekly, so there will be competition there.

eP007
eP007
 
Nimish
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RE: India: The Missing Link In UA's Asia Network

Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:06 pm

Quoting ChicagoFlyer (Reply 32):
How much are YOU willing to pay for the flight? I heard on the grapevine that AA fills their planes ORD-DEL but cannot make money--it takes too much damned fuel to operate a flight that long. Let's do some simple math:

I (or rather my company) will pay what's needed for a non-stop with good onboard service.

Besides - remember this service is not just about meeting the needs of passengers FROM Indians, but equally for passengers FROM the USA (and there are lots of Americans that need to fly to India every day). So I could turn the question around and ask how much YOU are willing to pay for the flight  sarcastic  but I won't.

Quoting ChicagoFlyer (Reply 32):
not least because the Indians in general are extremely adept at bargaining and searching for the lowest price

I'm sorry - but what you're implying is that the American public is rather stupid and gullible and will pay higher fares without reason. I don't agree with that - folks all over the world will look for bargains and use them.
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