tonytifao
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AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:04 am

Any chance AA would start flying back to CNF now that Varig is out of there? Varig has no more flights to or from CNF.

Varig had two daily flights to GRU where they would connect passengers to MIA and JFK.

I don't think TAM can fill in the gap with their A320 from GRU to CNF in the morning, specially in high peak season.

Come on AA, please start flying back to CNF  Smile  Smile  Smile
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:36 am

If Brazil allows US airlines to expand their number of USA-Brazil flights, a return is almost guaranteed, but AA will not fly to CNF again unless it can be non-stop from Miami.
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teixeim
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 3:43 am

Varig's flights to CNF were never convenient for the traveller arriving in Rio or São Paulo on an international flight (left too early or too late). While CNF is a beautiful airport, PLU is much more convenient and fun.
 
dutchjet
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:11 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
If Brazil allows US airlines to expand their number of USA-Brazil flights, a return is almost guaranteed, but AA will not fly to CNF again unless it can be non-stop from Miami.

I agree - I do wonder if the VARIG situation will result in increased access to Brazil for US carriers, or will the Brazilian authorities react to VARIG's collapse by further protecting TAM, the only remaining longrange carrier out of Brasil?
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:20 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
I agree - I do wonder if the VARIG situation will result in increased access to Brazil for US carriers, or will the Brazilian authorities react to VARIG's collapse by further protecting TAM, the only remaining longrange carrier out of Brasil?

Considering Varig will continue to fly to Miami, London, Caracas, and Frankfurt, they will still have a long-haul network roughly equal in size to TAM's.

However, I do think Brazil will soon liberalize their air treaty with the US in a similar fashion to the Brazil-Portugal treaty: Open Skies except for GRU/GIG. American Airlines is ready to take advantage of this. The moment it is signed, flights to Recife and Brasilia are a given (those two cities, along with Sao Paulo and Rio, have US consulates where Brazilians must apply in person for a Visa, hence AA is aiming at those markets first). Other markets - Belo Horizonte, Fortaleza, Belem, Natal, Curitiba, Manaus, Salvador, and Porto Alegre - are bound to follow. Assuming two things, that the US/Brazil air treaty is liberalized and that Brazil switches to a "on arrival Visa" program for US travelers (which will be a boom for tourism), both of which are expected, I think AA may be flying to as many as 9-10 cities in Brazil by 2012 from MIA, and if the tourism boom is large enough, maybe add a JFK flight to a main tourist destination, like Salvador da Bahia. Brazil offers a great combination of high density cities with large demand to the US, healthy business/industrial traffic, and very strong cargo traffic, the last of which could alone drive profits on certain routes, like CNF and MAO.

[Edited 2006-06-22 21:23:52]

[Edited 2006-06-22 21:26:03]
a.
 
dutchjet
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:28 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):


However, I do think Brazil will soon liberalize their air treaty with the US in a similar fashion to the Brazil-Portugal treaty: Open Skies except for GRU/GIG. American Airlines is ready to take advantage of this. The moment it is signed, flights to Recife and Brasilia are a given (those two cities, along with Sao Paulo and Rio, have US consulates where Brazilians must apply in person for a Visa, hence AA is aiming at those markets first). Other markets - Belo Horizonte, Fortaleza, Belem, Manaus, Salvador, and Porto Alegre - are bound to follow. Assuming two things, that the US/Brazil air treaty is liberalized and that Brazil switches to a "on arrival Visa" program for US travelers (which will be a boom for tourism), both of which are expected, I think AA may be flying to as many as 9-10 cities in Brazil by 2012 from MIA.

[Edited 2006-06-22 21:23:52]

I agree......and do hope that you are correct in your analysis and projections. "Secondary cities" is Brazil is the last big untapped market for AA in devloping its Latin American hub at MIA....service to these cities will allow an increase in pax numbers, tourism, business traffic, etc. and will benefit both Brazil and the US.

Now, how about doing away with the VISA requirement?
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:36 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
Now, how about doing away with the VISA requirement?

There has been progress, albeit slow, towards easing it. A new proposal will allow Americans to apply and get Visas once they arrive in Brazil at the airport, similar to Turkey, Egypt, and a few other nations. This is the best way to do it short of eliminating Visas. Tourist Visas are also relatively affordable - usually around $25.

This is absolutely nessecary for American Airlines to better exploit the Brazilian market. They need to balance out the traffic on both sides, and as peak travel is opposite on both sides (Americans go to Brazil mainly between November and March; Brazilians come to the USA mainly between May and September), it makes it easier for AA to maintain stable year-round service.
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commavia
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
The moment it is signed, flights to Recife and Brasilia are a given (those two cities, along with Sao Paulo and Rio, have US consulates where Brazilians must apply in person for a Visa, hence AA is aiming at those markets first). Other markets - Belo Horizonte, Fortaleza, Belem, Natal, Curitiba, Manaus, Salvador, and Porto Alegre - are bound to follow.

Question: if it is reasonably conceivable that within five years, AA could be flying to as many as 12 Brazilian cities (listed above) with presumably hundreds of weekly flights overall, will it really continue to be necessary anymore for American to keep the TAM codeshare? If AA can offer its customers direct access with its own metal to many of the markets it now serves via TAM, will the TAM codeshare be obsolete?
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
Question: if it is reasonably conceivable that within five years, AA could be flying to as many as 12 Brazilian cities (listed above) with presumably hundreds of weekly flights overall, will it really continue to be necessary anymore for American to keep the TAM codeshare? If AA can offer its customers direct access with its own metal to many of the markets it now serves via TAM, will the TAM codeshare be obsolete?

Brazil is the third largest domestic airline market in the world. Even when if AA were to fly to a dozen Brazilian cities, that is only the tip of the iceberg. Having a codeshare agreement with TAM, arguably the most loved airline in Brazil, is a huge advantage towards growing in the region.
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incitatus
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
Open Skies except for GRU/GIG. American Airlines is ready to take advantage of this. The moment it is signed, flights to Recife and Brasilia are a given

That is not a hard obstacle. Brazil has granted ex-bilateral rights to airlines, and American is one that has benefited. If any US airline decided it wanted to serve a Northeast Brazil destination, there would be very strong pressure at the state and local level (besides some arms of the Federal gov't), and that pressure would be more than enough to push ex-bilateral flights through.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 7):
Question: if it is reasonably conceivable that within five years, AA could be flying to as many as 12 Brazilian cities

No, it is not. Over five years I give it at most three, starting with Salvador and Manaus, although Manaus now has TAM and Copa.
Actually Salvador has a shot at becoming a jumping point for cruise ships. Chances of attracting US carrier service are good.

Quoting Tonytifao (Thread starter):
Any chance AA would start flying back to CNF now that Varig is out of there?

I don't know if Varig leaving changes anything - airlines often react slowly.
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MAH4546
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:26 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 9):
No, it is not. Over five years I give it at most three, starting with Salvador and Manaus, although Manaus now has TAM and Copa.

Neither Salvador nor Manaus are the planned next cities for AA in Brazil. They are looking strongest at Recife and Brasilia right now.
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2travel2know
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 1):
If Brazil allows US airlines to expand their number of USA-Brazil flights, a return is almost guaranteed, but AA will not fly to CNF again unless it can be non-stop from Miami.

Usually AA has 3 daily flights arriving from the U.S. in GRU at the same time, one plane does a tag-onto GIG, one flies daytime to MIA and the other - which I pressume did GRU-ASU - now stays all day long in GRU?
Still better to leave that aircraft in GRU all day long than to have a tag-onto CNF?
Remember the times of flying from GRU/GIG to PLU for the international connecting passnegers are now gone and whenever CNF will be OK to fly non-stop from MIA, AA will need 2 wide-bodies for that route if they want to fly daily.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 11):
Usually AA has 3 daily flights arriving from the U.S. in GRU at the same time, one plane does a tag-onto GIG, one flies daytime to MIA and the other - which I pressume did GRU-ASU - now stays all day long in GRU?

AA has six daily flights to Sao Paulo - three from Miami, two from Dallas, and one from New York City. All but one Miami flight arrive in the morning. Sao Paulo service will be reduced to five daily in the fall, as DFW-GRU's second frequency will be moved to MIA-GIG.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 11):
Remember the times of flying from GRU/GIG to PLU for the international connecting passnegers are now gone and whenever CNF will be OK to fly non-stop from MIA, AA will need 2 wide-bodies for that route if they want to fly daily.

American Airlines will not be flying a widebody to CNF. The plan is to use a winglet-equipped 757-200ER.
a.
 
incitatus
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 10):
Neither Salvador nor Manaus are the planned next cities for AA in Brazil. They are looking strongest at Recife and Brasilia right now.

I didn't say that Salvador is what American is looking at "right now". I said that in my opinion it will be first. It seems that what American looks at changes with the wind. My opinion is more stable Big grin. If you recall, the media even reported American was going to Natal and some American exec was looking at it.
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BigGSFO
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
American Airlines will not be flying a widebody to CNF. The plan is to use a winglet-equipped 757-200ER.

Question: would the service to the secondary cities requite 2 aircraft each? We know that the business community demands red-eyes to/from GRU/GIG, but would the same apply for CNF, REC, BSB, etc? Especially in the Northeastern cities which are more leisure orientated and/or MAO which is significantly closer to MIA than GRU/GIG.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:37 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 14):

Question: would the service to the secondary cities requite 2 aircraft each? We know that the business community demands red-eyes to/from GRU/GIG, but would the same apply for CNF, REC, BSB, etc? Especially in the Northeastern cities which are more leisure orientated and/or MAO which is significantly closer to MIA than GRU/GIG.

It depends on the market. AA, for example, would not dedicate two aircraft for leisure markets like Salvador (TAM's current MIA-SSA service is a daylight). Manaus is close enough to the US that only one aircraft is needed and the times will still do well (MAO is closer to MIA than LAX). In fact, most northeast markets are close enough that one aircraft will suffice. Flying time to NE Brazil from Miami is around the same as to California. The only markets I can see them needing two 757s for are BSB and CNF.
a.
 
tonytifao
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:55 pm

Are there plans for CNF using a 757???
 
incitatus
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 16):
Are there plans for CNF using a 757???

I heard the international area of CNF was closed down. There is no duty free, no customs and no immigration anymore. True?
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JJMNGR
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 4):
Considering Varig will continue to fly to Miami, London, Caracas, and Frankfurt, they will still have a long-haul network roughly equal in size to TAM's.

This is what is written. In fact they when they are operating it is being done with a lot of sacrifice. CCs for example it is written but it is definetelly not flying.
 
2travel2know
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
I heard the international area of CNF was closed down. There is no duty free, no customs and no immigration anymore. True?

Several Brazilian "International" Airports do have unused / underused inmigration and customs areas and even a Duty Free Store (those Brasif ones), if CNF is like BSB, CGB and SLZ; then they still have all the international facilities just waiting to be used.

If AA is to fly to CNF - maybe depending on the kind of market CNF is - they could operate it with only one B757: MIA departure early evenning and CNF departure early-mid morning.
I don't work for COPA Airlines!
 
PRAirbus
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:47 am

I certainly doubt AA flying CNF on a 757ER due to cargo space and weight restrictions. One major reason AA kept CNF was for cargo (763) why would they return on a 757?
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 20):
I certainly doubt AA flying CNF on a 757ER due to cargo space and weight restrictions. One major reason AA kept CNF was for cargo (763) why would they return on a 757?

Because this time around they are aiming more for passengers than cargo. Belo Horizonte is the third largest city in Brazil, and that count's for something. The weight restrictions on north/south routes are not very heavy at all because of lack of strong headwinds.
a.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 17):
I heard the international area of CNF was closed down. There is no duty free, no customs and no immigration anymore. True?

Incitatus, it's true, international area called "Sala A" is closed since Varig turns the RG8740 CNF-GRU leg into RG2057 CNF-GRU domestic only, and LAB drops CNF.

Concerning to a USA-CNF flight, i doubt that even with more frequencies grant to AA they decide to run this route due to the fact that CNF nowadays is served by GRU (and Tam just introduce a new night flight CNF-GRU to allow more connections thru GRU to CDG, MIA, JFK, EZE and very soon LHR). Talking about economic activities in Minas Gerais (the name of the state) and it's capital Belo Horizonte, links to USA are little, tourism is a key but it's more similar to Europe (i'm talking about Mariana, Ouro Preto and other historic sites) but not so strong as Rio de Janeiro and Northeast. Links to Minas Gerais are higher for Europe due to the large investment made by italians (Fiat, Iveco), Luxembourg (Arcelor-Mittal), Germany (Vallourec Mannesman and Mercedes). CNF IMO pays the price of their location, very close to Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro and Brasilia.
I believe Recife, Natal and Fortaleza will be the next AA destinations (and only if they receive more frequencies).

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
tonytifao
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:38 am

Felipe,

The only reason I asked is I remember back in the days that CNF had Continental, United (straight to MIA if I recall) and AA.

Thanks for all your information  Smile

Hope you had a great time in Germany
 
incitatus
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:31 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 22):
Talking about economic activities in Minas Gerais (the name of the state) and it's capital Belo Horizonte, links to USA are little, tourism is a key but it's more similar to Europe (i'm talking about Mariana, Ouro Preto and other historic sites) but not so strong as Rio de Janeiro and Northeast. Links to Minas Gerais are higher for Europe due to the large investment made by italians (Fiat, Iveco), Luxembourg (Arcelor-Mittal), Germany (Vallourec Mannesman and Mercedes). CNF IMO pays the price of their location, very close to Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro and Brasilia.

Mineiro immigrants in the US is the category that will eventually sustain a flight to CNF. There are so many mineiros in the US, so^! Big grin

Uai, American even has a store in Governador Valadares!  rotfl 

http://www.aa.com/content/br/servico...nte/atendimentoClienteBrasil.jhtml
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LipeGIG
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:52 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 24):
Mineiro immigrants in the US is the category that will eventually sustain a flight to CNF. There are so many mineiros in the US, so^!

Yes, i agree but they use to travel on Business and First Class ? Some could do this, but i believe the majority come thru Economy Class. And i imagine a flight CNF-MIA would hit the loads on GRU flights where "mineiros" nowadays connect.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
incitatus
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 25):
Yes, i agree but they use to travel on Business and First Class ? Some could do this, but i believe the majority come thru Economy Class. And i imagine a flight CNF-MIA would hit the loads on GRU flights where "mineiros" nowadays connect.

In the current set up the AA 757s have domestic first class cabin. In the flights to Europe those seats are sold as coach - and they are pretty uncomfortable compared to regular business class. If they make their way to CNF the market AA will be after is coach. The few passengers desiring business class can connect in Sao Paulo. Even so the coach fares between the US and Brazil are almost never on cheap side.

I am not convinced that MIA-CNF can make money, though. I think it can work as a seasonal flight June to August and December to February. Off season maybe 3 x week, not 5.
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PRAirbus
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:10 am

United's MIA-CNF nonstop service only lasted a while. It was cancelled shortly after it started, not sure about dates.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:57 am

Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 27):
United's MIA-CNF nonstop service only lasted a while

It was non-stop? i thought it was via GRU.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA To CNF Again?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:11 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 28):
Quoting PRAirbus (Reply 27):
United's MIA-CNF nonstop service only lasted a while

It was non-stop? i thought it was via GRU.

Nope, it was non-stop. Lasted around two years.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 26):

I am not convinced that MIA-CNF can make money, though. I think it can work as a seasonal flight June to August and December to February. Off season maybe 3 x week, not 5.

AA will not launch CNF if it cannot be year-round. They don't like seasonal stations, and only have two: Rome and Glasgow.
a.