theflyboy
Posts: 11
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:20 am

BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:27 am

Wow - Just read this story. Looks like Virgin have finally got their revenge for the BA Dirty Tricks campaign. Sure they were just following the law - but this could have big implications for BA. Looks like the rivalry will intensify now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5109014.stm
 
FWAERJ
Posts: 2586
Joined: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:23 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:32 am

Ouch... BA could really be hurt by this one.
"Did he really need the triple bypass? Or was it the miles?"
 
RobTrent
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:48 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:39 am

Quoting Theflyboy (Thread starter):
Looks like Virgin have finally got their revenge for the BA Dirty Tricks campaign

What goes around etc. It amazes me however, given the history between the two carriers that BA even spoke to Virgin.

This could cost BA and any others found guilty Big Tiime. BA's shares lost 6% yesterday and this is only the beggining of what I suspect will be a long drawn out investigaion.

I will be watching with interest
Regards
R
T7 - You know it makes sense !
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3541
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:01 am

Another BBC report here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5104946.stm

Quoting RobTrent (Reply 2):
BA's shares lost 6% yesterday and this is only the beggining of what I suspect will be a long drawn out investigaion.

I knew I should have sold mine last week !!!.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
BA787
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:40 pm

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:14 am

VS should know that revenge isn't sweet. I read on A.net yesterday that BA could face a 10% of all ticket sales fine which could be catastrophic. Its gone far enough now, it needs dealing with before one of them takes it too far!

Tom
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
Posts: 11619
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2000 4:06 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:16 am

I hope so, hoorah for Virgin Atlantic! I am sure they welcomed the OFT the other day with open arms into their office.

Virgin Atlantic is 49% owned by Singapore Airlines Limited
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3541
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 1:19 am

Quoting BA787 (Reply 4):
VS should know that revenge isn't sweet

It is hardly revenge, If VS had gone along with BA, then they too would be breaking the law, and VS were just doing the right thing by bringing this to the OFT's attention.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
art
Posts: 2679
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 6):
It is hardly revenge, If VS had gone along with BA, then they too would be breaking the law, and VS were just doing the right thing by bringing this to the OFT's attention.

I don't know the ins and outs of this law but I suppose it's possible that Virgin would have committed an offence if they had not reported BA.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 1621
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting Art (Reply 7):
I don't know the ins and outs of this law but I suppose it's possible that Virgin would have committed an offence if they had not reported BA.

indeedy. Had VS not reported it, and someone else had, then the Office of Fair Trading and the US Department of Justice could have interpreted that VS was trying to cover up.

VS had no choice it would seem, other thatn to flag the issue to the authorities.
 
TEAtheB
Posts: 78
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:04 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:35 pm

I wonder in what circumstances a "BA executive told a Virgin counterpart of plans to increase BA's fuel surcharge" (if indeed it happened). Over a pint in the pub?
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 5:51 pm

Quoting RobTrent (Reply 2):

This could cost BA and any others found guilty Big Tiime. BA's shares lost 6% yesterday and this is only the beggining of what I suspect will be a long drawn out investigaion.

According to a dutch newssite, that specialises in aviation news, the fine could be as high as 1.2 billion Euro's, that's roughly 1.5 billion US$, if found guilty.


http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/news/?id=14473
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:01 pm

VS Changed there fuel surcharge just after BA as well. So lets see.

I am just about to finish reading about the Dirty Tricks campaign from the 80's and 90's and am shocked what the airlines did back then. I hope its not been going on again. We shall see what tthe investigation comes up with.
Where does the time go???
 
carduelis
Posts: 1388
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2001 8:24 pm

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:27 pm

Quoting Trekster (Reply 11):
I am just about to finish reading about the Dirty Tricks campaign

Without labouring the argument any more - try a search here for Dirty Tricks and read the widely varying many contributions on the subject, and then decide whether or not you want to believe what you have read.
Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
vc10
Posts: 1342
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 6:40 pm

What I do not understand about this is how just one airline can be guilty of price fixing, surely it takes more than one to price fix.

This could just be a start of another hate campaign against BA who might be found to be innocent, but you know what they say " If you throw enough S*** at the wall some of it will stick"

littlevc10
 
art
Posts: 2679
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:16 pm

Quoting VC10 (Reply 13):
What I do not understand about this is how just one airline can be guilty of price fixing, surely it takes more than one to price fix.

It would be a question of conspiring to price fix, I think.

I don't quite understand why BA could not change its surcharge, see if the competition raised their surcharge to a similar level and ...if they did not, adjust the surcharge downwards again. The public is aware that fuel costs more and that fuel surcharges reflect this. And also that fuel surcharges are subject to change.

[Edited 2006-06-24 12:27:04]
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:19 pm

How can BA alone operate a price fixing cartel? Expect in the minds of those who actually believe every word that comes from Branson's mouth?
 
Ken777
Posts: 9046
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:25 am

I tend to thing this is over rated. BA might get hit with a small fine, which would probably be cheaper than paying lawyers, but there is little wisdom in a billion plus fine for a discussion on fuel prices and related fuel charges. Especially when it is in the UK's interests that BA have the funds to take care of their pension program problems.

On the other side of the coin, Virgin should understand that they benefit from the lack of dirty tricks in today's environment and it isn't really wise to start that game again. There is going to be something at some point in the future that will cause them to regret moving BA into this mess.

The only people that will really benefit will be the investigators who need something to investigate in order to justify their jobs.
 
74472
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:19 pm

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
I tend to thing this is over rated. BA might get hit with a small fine, which would probably be cheaper than paying lawyers, but there is little wisdom in a billion plus fine for a discussion on fuel prices and related fuel charges. Especially when it is in the UK's interests that BA have the funds to take care of their pension program problems.

On the other side of the coin, Virgin should understand that they benefit from the lack of dirty tricks in today's environment and it isn't really wise to start that game again. There is going to be something at some point in the future that will cause them to regret moving BA into this mess.

The only people that will really benefit will be the investigators who need something to investigate in order to justify their jobs.

BRAVO !
 
monkeyboi
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:12 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sun Jun 25, 2006 1:37 am

Virgin would be shooting itself in the foot by exposing any 'cartel' as part of a dirty tricks campaign.

If BA is found guilty, it will certainly speed up the abolition of Bermuda II (which is being described in the press as yet 'another' airline cartel)which is in neither BA's nor Virgins interest.
 
wrighbrothers
Posts: 1807
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:15 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:23 am

I for one hope that, if found guilty, the 2 executives will be sacked, they know you are not allowed to talk to competetors, they shouldn't be talking to VS full stop, not even about the weather.

Quoting Monkeyboi (Reply 18):
Virgin would be shooting itself in the foot by exposing any 'cartel' as part of a dirty tricks campaign.

I see how VS is portrayed as the good guy in this drama. Even if they were uncovered, I'd be guessing BA will be the bigger focus.

This saga is (if found to be true) cost the airlines millions, could this lead to BA declaring itself bankrupt ?, They could clear the pension problem out the window if they do.

Quoting TEAtheB (Reply 9):
wonder in what circumstances a "BA executive told a Virgin counterpart of plans to increase BA's fuel surcharge" (if indeed it happened). Over a pint in the pub?

I personally think this talk happened at conferences, BA can't stop VS from coming to big conferences where big airlines meet up, usually they are meant to ignore anyone from VS, but this time, it may not have been so.

Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting VC10 (Reply 13):
What I do not understand about this is how just one airline can be guilty of price fixing, surely it takes more than one to price fix.

I think the allegation at this point is just that BA let some other airlines know of their intention to increase the surcharge. As I understand it, no-one is accused of agreeing to it... yet.
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3541
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:40 am

Quoting David L (Reply 20):
I think the allegation at this point is just that BA let some other airlines know of their intention to increase the surcharge.

Which is precisely what they are NOT allowed to do hence the trouble they are in.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
mainMAN
Posts: 1636
Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 7:55 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting Art (Reply 7):
I don't know the ins and outs of this law but I suppose it's possible that Virgin would have committed an offence if they had not reported BA.

Virgin are taking advantage of OFT regulations which give immunity against prosecution to whistle-blowers, under the Enterprise Act 2002.

It's pay back time!

Quoting VC10 (Reply 13):
What I do not understand about this is how just one airline can be guilty of price fixing, surely it takes more than one to price fix.

Allegedly, all four LHR - US airlines are implicated.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sun Jun 25, 2006 2:49 am

Quoting VC10 (Reply 13):
What I do not understand about this is how just one airline can be guilty of price fixing, surely it takes more than one to price fix.

What with that and the points raised by Art and GDB and this quote given by the BBC from Ryanair:

"British Airways' reaction to rising oil prices has always been to penalise passengers by increasing their fuel surcharges at an even faster rate, so, since May 2004 the price of oil has doubled from 35 to 70 dollars a barrel and British Airways has increased its fuel surcharge 14-fold.

you have to wonder what this is all about. A surcharge is hardly likely to be linear with the price of oil. I dare say the rise is infinite from some oil price that was the base when surcharges started. Still and all, BA will be able to write a text on how to run a single company cartel.

And you would think they would not be daft enough to be up for conspiracy, unless they are judged to be schizoid and were conspiring with themselves.
 
GDB
Posts: 12653
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sun Jun 25, 2006 4:39 am

MainMAN, how on earth could it be 'pay back time' if all four LHR-US airlines could be implicated?
Because the last time I looked, VS were one of them.

Though I know as much about what it actually going on here, as anyone else, that is, very little indeed.
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 21):
Which is precisely what they are NOT allowed to do hence the trouble they are in.

And that's what I've been saying - but it's still just an investigation.  Smile

Quoting GDB (Reply 24):
MainMAN, how on earth could it be 'pay back time' if all four LHR-US airlines could be implicated?
Because the last time I looked, VS were one of them.

True but I think so far the other airlines are cooperating and are not subjects of the investigation. For example, if it turns out BA approached VS and VS didn't respond by agreeing to an increase then VS might not be guilty of anything. Just one of many possible scenarios.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 1621
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sun Jun 25, 2006 9:47 am

Quoting David L (Reply 25):
True but I think so far the other airlines are cooperating and are not subjects of the investigation. For example, if it turns out BA approached VS and VS didn't respond by agreeing to an increase then VS might not be guilty of anything. Just one of many possible scenarios.

It was VS who reported BA to the authorities in the first place, after BA alegedley broke the law - so VS, it would seem, are not implicated, but merely providing evidence.
 
timboflier215
Posts: 804
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 7:54 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sun Jun 25, 2006 8:52 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 24):

By reporting BA, VS have earned themselves immunity from prosecution. So, even if they are as guilty as BA, BA will suffer but VS will get away scot-free. That is IF VS or BA have indeed done anything wrong.
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:33 pm

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 19):
I for one hope that, if found guilty, the 2 executives will be sacked, they know you are not allowed to talk to competetors, they shouldn't be talking to VS full stop, not even about the weather.

Sorry but this is just totally ridiculous. In all industries executives with one company talk with those of their competitors almost on a daily basis. Operationally. for example, both BA and VS sit on the committee with their other competitors that BAA runs for LHR T3 users. At the other end of the scale IATA holds regular global and local meetings. If Wrightbrothers are to be believed when he says 'they know you are not allowed to talk to competetors (sic)' then exactly what is the purpose of executives of these airlines meeting with each other and how can IATA even exist?

So what have we really got here. On 21 April BA announced it was increasing the fuel surcharge on its long haul flights by £5.

It now seems possible that prior to the public release of the appropriate press release - still available now to be read on the BA web site - possibly at a formal meeting of a group of airlines, a BA executive might have been asked by a VS executive whether there were any BA press releases in the pipeline. He just could have replied without thinking 'Just one on fuel surcharges.' So the VS executive reports back to head office. His report goes up to SRB. He decides to capitalise on the immunity he will be given under the 2002 Enterprise Act by instantly putting up VS's fuel surcharge while raising the issue with the Office of Fair Trading. This allows him tp maintain or increase the profit that acrues directly to his pocket to be maintained or increased while doing down his #1 enemy.

Yes. All the preceding paragraph is purely my speculation. Anybody else got a better scenario? If so . . .

But this storm is clearly a storm over £5. Is it a storm in a tea cup? Only time will tell.
 
monkeyboi
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 4:12 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Sun Jun 25, 2006 11:52 pm

Although VS main gain immunity from the OFT in the uk, seems it might be 'in the poo' on the US side:

From Sunday Times Today:

..............."BRITISH AIRWAYS and Virgin have been hit with a potentially damaging and expensive class-action lawsuit in America over an alleged price-fixing conspiracy. The suit was filed in New York on Friday by the leading class-action firm Cohen, Milstein, Hausfeld & Toll.

It follows an admission by BA last week that it was under investigation by the Office of Fair Trading and the American Department of Justice. The probe centres on allegations of price-fixing related to fuel surcharges on long-haul flights.

The lawsuit claims that BA, Virgin, and other unnamed airlines operated a “global conspiracy to fix, raise, maintain and/or stabilise prices for long-haul passenger flights to and from the United Kingdom”.

It says Virgin and BA’s introduction of fuel surcharges was “concerted” and lists surcharge rises over the past two years, claiming the pair worked in a “cartel”, with increases progressing in a “lockstep pattern”.

(BA and Virgin) implemented their agreement by exchanging information in secret ... communications between defendants included telephone conversations between British Airways head of communications Iain Burns and his counterparts at Virgin, the claim said.

Senior City lawyers said last night that Virgin’s decision to blow the whistle could give it immunity from prosecution by the OFT, but would not give it any protection from claims by third parties — such as the class- action suit in America. "...........................

Oh dear....
 
timboflier215
Posts: 804
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 7:54 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:10 am

Quoting Monkeyboi (Reply 29):

considering the bad blood between the two airlines, I find it hard to believe they would enter into illegal agreements with each other, as each could royally screw over the other if they broke ranks, like VS apparently has. I just find it hard to believe that executives at such prestigious airlines could be so stupid.

I heard that United and American were 'co-operating with the investigation.' Is it likely that they, too, will be implicated? Have their fuel surcharges increased in step with BA's and VS's??
 
wrighbrothers
Posts: 1807
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:15 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 28):
Sorry but this is just totally ridiculous

Is it ?
Okay, so they might have to talk, but they should talk about nothing other than what they have to.
The whole point is , THEY KNOW they aren't allowed to talk to VS, friends or not about things like that, it could cost the company millions, a fall in its shares, a damage to its reputation and can cost the individual up to 5 years in jail..
So should BA hold on to them ?, it doesn't matter to Willie Walsh, he didn't employ them, to him it's just 2 less wadges to pay, and 2 less liabilities.
These guys are some of the highest paid in the airline, they should know what they can and can't talk about.
At the end of the day, if BA are fined what some are predicting, it's not the executives who get hurt, its the hard working folks on the floor who get hit the hardest, why SHOULD BA keep them ??

Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:58 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
I tend to thing this is over rated. BA might get hit with a small fine, which would probably be cheaper than paying lawyers, but there is little wisdom in a billion plus fine for a discussion on fuel prices and related fuel charges. Especially when it is in the UK's interests that BA have the funds to take care of their pension program problems.

On the other side of the coin, Virgin should understand that they benefit from the lack of dirty tricks in today's environment and it isn't really wise to start that game again. There is going to be something at some point in the future that will cause them to regret moving BA into this mess.

The only people that will really benefit will be the investigators who need something to investigate in order to justify their jobs.

An excellent post.

Quoting Monkeyboi (Reply 18):
speed up the abolition of Bermuda II (which is being described in the press as yet 'another' airline cartel)which is in neither BA's nor Virgins interest

If Bermuda II was abolished, it would be fatal for VS. BA might survive but will be badly hurt.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 19):
I see how VS is portrayed as the good guy in this drama

Did not VS follow BA and introduce similar surcharges? IIRC VS was first, on two occasions, by introducing their surcharges ahead of BA.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 19):
BA declaring itself bankrupt

If BA declared itself bankrupt, they would probably lose all their slots at LHR. Bankruptcy laws in the UK are unlike Chapter 11. The liquidator must realise all the cash that he can from the bankrupt company's assets. BA's slots at LHR would be a goldmine.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Mon Jun 26, 2006 7:44 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 31):
Quoting VV701 (Reply 28):
Sorry but this is just totally ridiculous

Is it ?

Yes. Let me remind you what you said, namely:

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 19):
they shouldn't be talking to VS full stop, not even about the weather

Let me expand on what I said. Sorry but it is just totally ridiculous to suggest that BA executives:

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 19):
shouldn't be talking to VS full stop

Now you are saying:

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 31):
they should talk about nothing other than what they have to

which is equally ridiculous. Not even a 'Hello, how are you' or similar greeting which is clearly outside the envelope of having 'to talk about NOTHING other than ewhat they have to'.

As to the idea that BA could save the

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 31):
wadges

by not employing a commercial director and communications director . . .
 
wrighbrothers
Posts: 1807
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:15 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:42 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 33):
Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 31):
Quoting VV701 (Reply 28):
Sorry but this is just totally ridiculous

Is it ?

Yes. Let me remind you what you said, namely:

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 19):
they shouldn't be talking to VS full stop, not even about the weather

Let me expand on what I said. Sorry but it is just totally ridiculous to suggest that BA executives:

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 19):
shouldn't be talking to VS full stop

Now you are saying:

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 31):
they should talk about nothing other than what they have to

which is equally ridiculous. Not even a 'Hello, how are you' or similar greeting which is clearly outside the envelope of having 'to talk about NOTHING other than ewhat they have to'.

Oh right, a miss understanding on my part  Smile

Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
egmcman
Posts: 729
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:28 pm

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:18 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 19):
This saga is (if found to be true) cost the airlines millions, could this lead to BA declaring itself bankrupt ?, They could clear the pension problem out the window if they do.

As someone employed in the insolvency business I will tell you what could happen assets such as owned aircraft would have to be sold and it would lead to job losses and possibly a winding up order being issued at a court.
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
Posts: 1442
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2005 5:47 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16):
The only people that will really benefit will be the investigators who need something to investigate in order to justify their jobs.

 checkmark  Just like Ofwat, Ofsted, Ofgas and whatever generally Of-trolley gov't department is lucky enough to 'get tough' with a major corporation. Bureaucrats who know it all without ever having to earn a real living.

Quoting TEAtheB (Reply 9):
I wonder in what circumstances a "BA executive told a Virgin counterpart of plans to increase BA's fuel surcharge" (if indeed it happened). Over a pint in the pub?

Exactly what I was thinking. It is very normal for businesses to talk to each other. I've been for a beer with some of our competitors - amongst other things to discuss how we can strengthen our industry, not hatch evil plots against each other.
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 1621
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 36):
It is very normal for businesses to talk to each other. I've been for a beer with some of our competitors - amongst other things to discuss how we can strengthen our industry, not hatch evil plots against each other.

One would assume that, because it has been referred to the OFT, that it was not merely a conversation, but something more significant, and with some kind of evidence to back it up. However only time will tell, when the evidence is made public.

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 36):

checkmark Just like Ofwat, Ofsted, Ofgas and whatever generally Of-trolley gov't department is lucky enough to 'get tough' with a major corporation. Bureaucrats who know it all without ever having to earn a real living.

Very well said, we have a lot of good for nothing regulators in the UK, who are not democratically elected, and in some cases are not even answerable to parliament. All a bit of a mess.
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:46 am

Lemme guess, Walsh went fishing with SRB and he happened to mention it after a couple of tequila shots huuh!
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:51 pm

Quoting Egmcman (Reply 35):
As someone employed in the insolvency business I will tell you what could happen assets such as owned aircraft would have to be sold and it would lead to job losses and possibly a winding up order being issued at a court.

As I said earlier, if BA was to enter into liquidation or be declared bankrupt, its slots at LHR would probably be among the first assets to be realised. That would open the door for the mega carriers to get a foothold at LHR and I doubt very much if any UK Government would allow a foreign carrier to be the dominant airline at the UK's major airport.

The Monopolies Commission would not allow Branson/Virgin to get all BA's slots, so another UK airline would come out of the wash - possibly a new BA, or even an enlarged BD. Branson/Virgin might then find the competition far stronger; whereas BA was content to allow VS to operate alongside them, the new airline might not.

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 38):
Walsh went fishing with SRB and he happened to mention it after a couple of tequila shots huuh!

Probably more likely that Rod Eddington and some of his cronies went to a cricket match with Branson who spiked their drinks with alcohol. The BA bosses started referring to business matters whilst Branson recorded the conversations, asking the BA bosses about their plans for fuel surcharges.

[Edited 2006-06-27 09:53:18]
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
carduelis
Posts: 1388
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2001 8:24 pm

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 6:45 pm



Jolly fine boating weather . . . tête-a-tête . . . !
Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:08 pm

Quoting Carduelis (Reply 40):

Good one....but with SRB's publicity stunts, the boat should be in VS colors, not Varig's.  biggrin 
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
carduelis
Posts: 1388
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2001 8:24 pm

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:08 pm

Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
JAL
Posts: 3876
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2000 12:37 pm

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 11:14 pm

All the talk of BA going out of business is nonsense, do you seriously think that the British government will let that happen, I very much doubt it.


Beside, this is probably some hate campaign by Branson that guy will do anything to get some publicity and I mean anything.
Work Hard But Play Harder
 
vv701
Posts: 5773
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:37 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 39):
That would open the door for the mega carriers to get a foothold at LHR and I doubt very much if any UK Government would allow a foreign carrier to be the dominant airline at the UK's major airport.

There are no British owned carriers operating out of LHR today. The original rules restricting BA share ownership by foreigners to 40 per cent of the airline's ordinary stock were abolished by John Major's government when it transpired that (all those years ago) significantly more than the 40 per cent was already owned by American investors in the form of US ADRs.

VS is, of course, 49 per cent owned by Singapore Airlines and bmi is 50 per cent less one share owned by LH and SK. So if the UK government is really concerned about airline nationality operating at LHR they better ensure that easyJet or fly.be get LHR access before the Spanish take over LHR.
 
wrighbrothers
Posts: 1807
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 8:15 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:01 am

Quoting JAL (Reply 43):
All the talk of BA going out of business is nonsense, do you seriously think that the British government will let that happen, I very much doubt it.

While i agree that BA will most likely not go bust, the British government will not help BA, BA are, after all, a carrier that protests against governments helping dwindling carriers.

Wrighbrothers
Always stand up for what is right, even if it means standing alone..
 
carduelis
Posts: 1388
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2001 8:24 pm

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 45):
BA are, after all, a carrier that protests against governments helping dwindling carriers.

Where, when, how, why, what, who?

Evidence?

Support material?
Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
BA787
Posts: 2381
Joined: Sat Jun 03, 2006 9:40 pm

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:21 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 45):
the British government will not help BA, BA are, after all, a carrier that protests against governments helping dwindling carriers.

Explain this please. Is the U.K. in the same position as the U.S. Can carriers file for Bankruptcy Protection?

Tom
 
74472
Posts: 113
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 10:19 pm

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:30 am

Quoting BA787 (Reply 47):
Explain this please. Is the U.K. in the same position as the U.S. Can carriers file for Bankruptcy Protection?

Nah not in this country. Chapter 11 doesn't exist.

Besides BA have enough cash reserves (about 2 billion quid) to cope, even with a maximum fine. Which wont' happen.

I think it's important to remember that at the moment this is all about allegation and not fact.

But VS might regret opening this can of worms.
 
AlanUK
Posts: 511
Joined: Thu Oct 07, 2004 2:56 am

RE: BA, VS Dirty Tricks - Is This Virgins Revenge?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting Carduelis (Reply 46):
Where, when, how, why, what, who?

Evidence?

Support material?



Quoting BA787 (Reply 47):
Explain this please. Is the U.K. in the same position as the U.S. Can carriers file for Bankruptcy Protection?

BA has been fighting hard to prevent carriers such as Alitalia and Olympic Airways from receiving money from their respective governements, and went to court over Alitalia. BA enlist the help of other carriers in Europe against the Italian airline (see http://news.airwise.com/stories/2004/10/1098101627.html)