thering
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AA's MD-80 Fleet and its future, thoughts?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:48 am

With more than 230 MD-82/83 on it's fleet, AA should star thinking on a long term substitution for tham! They still have 47 B737-800 on order, and are already operating 77 of this! This 47 738 can replace very well the MD-80s, but, will AA substitute tham all for 738? Hardly!
They should think on getting some B737-700 for less demand runs, as well as the new 737-900ER, that on a farer future can replace also their B757s!

If they restar to grow, they can as well think of a plane the size of the F100 (that they stopped using but didn't replaced), a good one for this would be the EMB 195 (since they already operate the ERJ-145 family).
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QXatFAT
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AA's MD-80 Fleet and its future, thoughts?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:54 am

Dude this thread has been up so many times.

But yes get rid of the MD-80's.
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MaartenV
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AA's MD-80 Fleet and its future, thoughts?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 8:10 am

I think the MD80s won't leave AA at least for another decade as they think there is not a suitable replacement available at this moment. They are probably waiting for the '737RS' (and less likely the A320 NG) to arrive before they make a decision on replacing the MD80.

Another option would be to re-engine the MD80s (something they are actually studying right now) with a more modern, silent and efficient engine in order to lengthen the lifespan of the MD80 at AA significantly and then they could turn in to the NW DC9's of AA...

If they ever take delivery of those 738s, it will just be for urgent expansion, but I think they will work out a deal with Boeing and convert them in to orders for the '737RS', if they will ever order it.
Its all about supply and demand...
 
ckfred
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AA's MD-80 Fleet and its future, thoughts?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:52 pm

A friend of mine at AA has heard what he deems as pure speculation, but AA may take the 737-800s and retire the oldest 40 to 60 MD-80s. These planes flew a lot of short and medium-haul routes, since they were delivered in 1983-85, and AA didn't start using MD-80s on longer routes, such as ORD-LAX and DFW-SEA until 1994. It will depend how how expensive the C-Checks become for the oldest MD-80s.

When AA signed its 20-year contract with Boeing, the plan was that the F100/MD-80/727-200 would be replaced with the 737-600/-700/-800. AA determined that the 737-600 was not a good plane for flying the short and medium-haul routes flown by the Fokkers. Finances simply don't allow for the replacement of the MD-80 fleet for some time, although the bulk of the 727 fleet was replaced with the -800.

My friend has also heard that AA is looking into putting new engines on the MD-80, especially with oil at $70 a barrel.

As for the long term, AA would like a plane that could replace the MD-80, say around 135 seats with transcon range, as well as a version that would fly 100 or so people on routes of 250 to 1500 miles. Supposedly, management has looked at the Embrear 190s to replace the F100s, but that would be introducing an additional aircraft type, which AA doesn't want to do.

Considering that AA still has about 400 production slots left under its contract with Boeing, my guess is that Boeing will seriously consider AA's needs as it starts on the replacement for the 737NG.
 
tommy767
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AA's MD-80 Fleet and its future, thoughts?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 1:57 pm

I was chatting with a pilot at MIA. He said that it can go two ways with the 737 deliveries. Either, wait to be the launch customer for the 737RS (or the under devolopment new 737) or take eventual delivery of the 40-60 738s. Its a tough call but i'll bet that it all depends on how expensive the supposed new engines on the Super 80s will be.

I still enjoy those Mad Dogs! But the 738s are better.

Tommy in EWR/LAX
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
ravel
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AA's MD-80 Fleet and its future, thoughts?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:09 pm

There's nothing wrong with MD-80 - they are good planes. And AA has a lot of them and won't be getting rid of them soon. Perhaps they should re-engine them and use them still just like NWA did with their DC-9's.

And the topic of this thread could be more descriptive...
 
TWAtwaTWA
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AA's MD-80 Fleet and its future, thoughts?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:31 pm

This has been discussed many times.

But it's still an interesting topic, since AA has a real problem on their hands for several reasons:

1. the MD-80s are not terribly fuel efficient for today's standards.
2. Re-engining the planes is expensive and disruptive.
3. Taking delivery of the 737s now will forego their possible options on the Y1
4. Waiting for the Y1 will cost a lot of fuel running the MD-80s
5. A lot of passengers aren't fans of the Maddogs, (i personally like them)
6. It's a huge fleet to replace, any decision that is made has long
reaching future effects for the airline. Lots of pressure on this decision

I think AA is going to wait to see what happens to fuel prices over the next year or two before making such a huge decision.

Here is Arpey's comments on how the current fuel spike is affecting AA. He says they have simply not found a logistically feasable engine replacement for the MD-80s at this time...
http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=5022

On an interesting and related note, AA plans to remove the rear galleys in the MD-80s later this year and add 4 extra seats... these 4 extra seats across the entire 300+ fleet add up to the capacity of 10 extra planes!
http://www.tandt.com/.%5Ctravel_update_20060209.asp
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aaden
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AA's MD-80 Fleet and its future, thoughts?

Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:08 pm

if it aint boeing we aint going. AA will look to boeing for the replacement. when boeing produces a plane that can do the job witch i imagine will be within the next 5 years years. AA will start phaseing out it's older md-80s about 40-50 a year according to an AA pilot I talked to at DIA.
 
thering
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AA's MD-80 Fleet and its future, thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:45 am

Quoting Ckfred (Reply 3):
but that would be introducing an additional aircraft type, which AA doesn't want to do.

Remember that they operate Embraer aircraft on American Eagle, the ERJ-135/140/145. I think that the 190/195 and even some 175 would be good for AA to operate on ex-F100 routes! Their smaller plane, 738, is to big for certain routes!
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TWAtwaTWA
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AA's MD-80 Fleet and its future, thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:51 am

Quoting Thering (Reply 8):
Remember that they operate Embraer aircraft on American Eagle, the ERJ-135/140/145. I think that the 190/195 and even some 175 would be good for AA to operate on ex-F100 routes! Their smaller plane, 738, is to big for certain routes!

All the American Eagle routes are actually run by independent airlines that utilize AA's booking network. It is an agreement that allows AA to have other small regional airlines (all of whom are called American Eagle) funnel passengers into its hubs to connect with mainline AA flights.

The American Eagle operators are separate companies, AA does not actually own any of the ERJs.
We're your kind of airline. Uh, I mean, We *were* your kind of airline.
 
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AA777223
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AA's MD-80 Fleet and its future, thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 9):
All the American Eagle routes are actually run by independent airlines that utilize AA's booking network. It is an agreement that allows AA to have other small regional airlines (all of whom are called American Eagle) funnel passengers into its hubs to connect with mainline AA flights.

The American Eagle operators are separate companies, AA does not actually own any of the ERJs.

Are you sure about this? I thought that a small portion of the AAeagle fleet was other airlines, but the vast majority of them were actual AMR owned aircraft?
A318/19/20/21, A300, A332/3, A343/6, A388, L1011, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, B722, B732/3/4/5/7/8/9, B743/4/4M, B752/3, B762/3/4, B772/E/W, B788/9, F-100, CRJ-200/700/900, ERJ-135/145/175, DH-8, ATR-72, DO-328, BAE-146
 
thering
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AA's MD-80 Fleet and its future, thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:29 pm

Quoting AA777223 (Reply 10):
Are you sure about this? I thought that a small portion of the AAeagle fleet was other airlines, but the vast majority of them were actual AMR owned aircraft?

Thought the same..
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steeler83
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet!

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:35 pm

I agree with the threadstarter. Get rid of the MD80s in favor of the 738. They already fly 738s with more on order... Just my twocents...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
thering
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:41 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 12):

Yes, even the MD-80 are not bad planes, they have too much of that, so any replacement plan will be very long, so, the sooner they start, the sooner they finish. I see AA MD-80s replacement plan as a 10 or even 15 years process.
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ltbewr
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:44 pm

Sure, get rid of the Mad Dogs. They are only 20 years old, and for DC9/MD80's, they are only middleaged, with another 20 years left. Maybe to NW to replace their oldest DC-9's?  biggrin 
Would they dump the leftovers from TWA first before they dump ones they bought/leased directly?
 
steeler83
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:46 pm

Quoting Thering (Reply 13):
Yes, even the MD-80 are not bad planes, they have too much of that, so any replacement plan will be very long, so, the sooner they start, the sooner they finish. I see AA MD-80s replacement plan as a 10 or even 15 years process.

Of course it will. Their MD80 fleet is almost as large as WN's entire fleet of 737s if not even larger than that! This will not be a "'poof' and done" deal. This will take some time. And I agree with that last part due to what I just stated. The sooner they start the sooner they finish and have a better, more efficient fleet...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
usair320
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:49 pm

Honestly the MD-80 is my favurite for short-medium haul just behind the A320/318/319/321.
 
mrstl
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:49 pm

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 9):
The American Eagle operators are separate companies, AA does not actually own any of the ERJs.

American Eagle is a wholly owned subsidiary of the AMR corp. American Connection carriers; Chautauqua, Trans States and Regions Air operate out of the St. Louis hub only.
 
thering
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:51 pm

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
Maybe to NW to replace their oldest DC-9's?

Maybe NW could get some of AA's MD-80s, and maybe DL's could get some also to replace 732 and the oldest MD-80/90s.
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qqflyboy
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet!

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:55 pm

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 9):
The American Eagle operators are separate companies, AA does not actually own any of the ERJs.

American Eagle is a wholly owned subsidiary of AMR, which American is too. American Connection is a name developed to cover the former TWA Express flights out of St. Louis with carriers Trans States and Chataqua. The only other exception would be some of the flying out of San Juan. If I am not mistaken, that operation is not wholly owned by AMR, but it maybe. Someone more close to Eagle may know how that works.

But on the whole, AE is owned by AMR, parent company of American.

As for an MD-80 replacement... the company has long said the aircraft is too big for some markets and not big enough for others. One aircraft type can't not effectively replace the fleet. I think in the long term AA will operate three aircraft types: EMB 190s or something similar, Y1 (the new 737 which will cover capacity and range from the smallest 73G to the 757) and the 787, which too will have variants to handle range and capacity from the 757 all the way up to the 777. Of course there will be several variants, but on the whole only three fleet types.

As mentioned above, AA's biggest problem now is they are between generations of aircraft. With Y1 coming around the corner from Boeing and Airbus considering a next generation A320, they are righly reluctant to order a couple hundred aircraft with yesterday's technology when the latest and greatest is around the corner.

I've kept this to myself and a few others, but AA has been negotiating with Airbus for the past three months on an A320/A319 order. The original deal talked about would include a mix of aircraft with 119 frames in all, including 19 A319LRs. As much as people say AA will never go Airbus, don't be so sure. At the same token, it isn't likely to happen, but yes, AA does negotiate with Airbus. And a potential deal isn't out of the question, either. I've confirmed these negotiations with three check airmen and two chief pilots.

The immediate gain of any aircraft order would be more fuel efficient aircraft, but we're not likely to see an order of any aircraft the size equal to the MD-80 fleet as it is currently. There are just too many aircraft to replace with not so new equipment. One of the most obvious moves to me would be to go ahead with the remaining 738s on order and retire at least that many MD-80s. That would help lower costs by running more fuel efficient aircraft and would also lower the maintenance costs of the 738 by spreading them out over more aircraft. That to mean seems like a reasonable solution to at least retire the oldest of the MD-80s.

It's anyone's guess... even at AA. Management doesn't yet know, nor does anyone else know, what Y1 will produce, nor do they know what the A320NG will have to offer. It's definitely a wait and see attitude, while looking at ways to minimize fuel burn in the short term.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
ckfred
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:00 pm

Quoting Thering (Reply 8):
Remember that they operate Embraer aircraft on American Eagle, the ERJ-135/140/145. I think that the 190/195 and even some 175 would be good for AA to operate on ex-F100 routes!

If the Embrear 190/195 were simply stretched versions of the 145, then AMR might be bringing of the issue of the scope clause with the APA, AA's pilots' union, so that it could place an order for Eagle.

My understanding is that the 190/195 is different enough that it has to be considered a different aircraft type. Even the engines are different, since the 135/140/145 use RR-Allisons, while the 190/195 use GE CF-34s.

As I said earlier, AMR management will probably see if Boeing does bring out a narrowbody aircraft that, in various series, could replace the F100, the MD-80, potentially the 737-800 in 15 years, and possibly the 757.
 
thering
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:02 pm

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 19):
EMB 190s or something similar

I see the EMB 190/195 as a good plane for AA, but not to replace MD-82. The 190/195 would better fit ex-F100 routes!

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 19):
One aircraft type can't not effectively replace the fleet

I agree with that. I think that for any airline, is bad to have 230 aircrafts of the same type. Tho replace AA's MD-80 fleet they will need at least 2 or 3 types of planes: If today, 73G, 738 and 739ER would be 3 good airplanes to this replacement, or they can waint for the next generations of the 737(Y1), or even both, AA could get something like 100 mixed 73G, 738 and 739ER to replace the oldests MD-80s and than in a couple of years, study the Y1 choice.
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TWAtwaTWA
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:03 pm

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 19):
American Eagle is a wholly owned subsidiary of AMR, which American is too. American Connection is a name developed to cover the former TWA Express flights out of St. Louis with carriers Trans States and Chataqua. The only other exception would be some of the flying out of San Juan. If I am not mistaken, that operation is not wholly owned by AMR, but it maybe. Someone more close to Eagle may know how that works.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm originally from STL, and so that is at the center of my world, I guess. Is this true for the AE out of DFW as well? I once personally know the man who owned AE in DFW. Perhaps he had sold his share to AMR in recent times?

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 19):
I've kept this to myself and a few others, but AA has been negotiating with Airbus for the past three months on an A320/A319 order.

This is a fascinating piece of information, but is not that surprising. As much as I love Boeing, AA needs solutions now, and if that means going Airbus for small long range planes, then so be it. I'm sure the folks at Boeing understand that the sooner they roll out Y1, the sooner AA and other american carriers put in hundreds of orders. This may be why Boeing is focusing on Y2, then Y1, and finally Y3. The money is in Y1 and Y2 in the near future.
We're your kind of airline. Uh, I mean, We *were* your kind of airline.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:04 pm

Quoting Steeler83 (Reply 15):
Of course it will. Their MD80 fleet is almost as large as WN's entire fleet of 737s if not even larger than that!

Not even close...

WN has over 450 737 in-serivce with more being added on a regular basis. WN has a backlog for another 136 73G, and unlike AA, Southwest will actually take them. AA has around 300 MD80, tops.

By the time AA is ready to replace the MD80, WN will have nearly two 737 for every one American MD80.
 
aa757first
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:05 pm

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 6):

1. the MD-80s are not terribly fuel efficient for today's standards.

Remember that fuel costs aren't everything. The leases might be significantly cheaper.

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 6):

2. Re-engining the planes is expensive and disruptive.

So is buying new aircraft, especially a whole new type.

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 6):

5. A lot of passengers aren't fans of the Maddogs, (i personally like them)

People travelling in First Class (the people that really matter) probably like MD-80s because its so quiet up there.

AAndrew
 
thering
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:07 pm

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 19):
I've kept this to myself and a few others, but AA has been negotiating with Airbus for the past three months on an A320/A319 order.

I really doubt that AA will order A319/A320 due to their Boeing trend.

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 22):
I'm sure the folks at Boeing understand that the sooner they roll out Y1, the sooner AA and other american carriers put in hundreds of orders.

Completely agree with that, when Boeing roll out the Y1, they will receive thousands and thousands of orders, mainly by American Airlines, Southwest and why not GOL (changing their 738 order to Y1 order).
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TWAtwaTWA
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:17 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 24):
People travelling in First Class (the people that really matter) probably like MD-80s because its so quiet up there.

The cabin width of the MD-80 limits the comfort of first class. Having flown (with my wife who has premium status on AA) in Y class on S80 as well as the other single aisle AA planes, 738 & 757, there is no question that the S80 biz seats are less comfortable, and the cabin of course is less spacious. When we fly economy, we don't mind the S80, since we can choose the left 2 seats. If we are going for biz class, we purposely avoid the S80s and try to get on a 757 or 737. Our experiences are probably in line with other biz travellers on AA, and from that perspective, we look forward to the replacement plane for the S80.

Edit: (addendum)
It's true that it is quiet up there, as much as its quiet in the front of coach on a S80. It is also hellishly loud in the back! Biz cabins in all planes are generally quiet due to forward location.

[Edited 2006-06-28 06:19:51]
We're your kind of airline. Uh, I mean, We *were* your kind of airline.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:30 pm

Those 80's still have a couple of decades of safe operation left in them.

As long as the industry remains in turmoil, they would be smart to hang onto them as long as possible.

New engines will evolve which will lower fuel consumption.

McDonnell Douglas built a solid airframe that will be viable for at least 20 more years.

If the industry goes into a profitable period again, like the 80's and 90's were, you can expect AA to act quickly to replace those planes. Not before.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
aaden
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 5:21 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 23):
Not even close...

WN has over 450 737 in-serivce with more being added on a regular basis. WN has a backlog for another 136 73G, and unlike AA, Southwest will actually take them. AA has around 300 MD80, tops.

southwest only has 436 according to their website and I was under the impression that AA had about 379 s80s
 
dutchjet
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:46 pm

There is really not much to add, except to remember what a huge and expensive undertaking the MD80 replacement project will be for AA....its likely to take ten years or more for AA to replace the MD80 fleet: from the moment that the first new aircraft arrives until the last one is delivered. Its unlikely that the 737NG (or A320) will remain in production for such a long period of time into the future, which makes all of this so much more interesting to think think about.

My guess is the following:

1. AA will take another 40 to 60 738s in the coming years to replace the oldest MD80s. AA will never order the 73Gs that were once considered as an MD80 replacment.

2. AA will be a launch customer for the Boeing Y1 737 replacement aircraft and order the type in big numbers to replace the remaining MD80s. The Y1 is to be offered in many variants.....not only will the Y1 replace the majority of the MD80 fleet at AA, it will also later replace AA's 752 fleet over time.

3. Thus, the result will be that AA will fly a 738/Y1 narrow body fleet.

4. As for the re-engine project for the MD80, even if the "right" engine could be found. Re-engine projects are expensive, require modifications to the air frame, and usually do not make economic sense. The only re-engine project that comes to mind which was successful is the DC8 Super 60 project, but the Super 60s were young when they were re-engined and it was a given that the Super 60s would have a very long "second-life" hauling freight. The same cannot be said of the MD80.
 
Tan Flyr
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:02 pm

IIRC, the MD-80's (original AA) are all paid for. Remember, Bob Crandall drove one heck of a bargain with Douglas..basicly every 3rd MD-80 was free or close to it.

SO, the only costs are the daily costs of fuel, maintenance, crew pay, etc.NO "payment" per say every month. Just like driving your car after it is paid for...as long as maintaining it stays reasonable, you can put money in the bank.

I think some of the TW birds are leased.
 
captaink
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 19):
The only other exception would be some of the flying out of San Juan. If I am not mistaken, that operation is not wholly owned by AMR, but it maybe. Someone more close to Eagle may know how that works

Executive Air operates for American Eagle out of San Juan to lower caribbean destinations. On a side note their fleet of ATRs are horrid.

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 24):
People travelling in First Class (the people that really matter) probably like MD-80s because its so quiet up there.

If all paid for their first class ticket sure.

But yeah the MD80s forward cabin is not as comfortable as the wider 738/752. All are quieter cause of its location, the MD even more so than the rest.

I fly the MD80 in coach and i usually sit on the two side, somewhere around row 12-14 and I have a more comfortable flight than I would have had on either the 738 or 752. I am an MD80 fan. I am looking forward to my flight on it next wee.
There is something special about planes....
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:31 pm

Quoting AAden (Reply 28):
southwest only has 436 according to their website and I was under the impression that AA had about 379 s80s

Their website was last updated in April 2006, and they have continued to take deliveries through May and June. They have more than 436.
 
jacobin777
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 11:58 pm

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 24):
People travelling in First Class (the people that really matter) probably like MD-80s because its so quiet up there.



Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 26):
It's true that it is quiet up there, as much as its quiet in the front of coach on a S80. It is also hellishly loud in the back! Biz cabins in all planes are generally quiet due to forward location.

flying on the MadDogs every few weeks, to be honest, at the end of the day, people look at price of ticket and time flexibility....almost all of the MadDog flights I've been on the past 6 months are full to the brim....

also, the 2-seat configuration is great for couples...

since the flight only has a 4 to 4 1/2 max time....ie.-ORD-West Coast..its bearable, even in the back...
"Up the Irons!"
 
pavlin
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 6):
5. A lot of passengers aren't fans of the Maddogs, (i personally like them)

I am one of those passengers who doesn't like the engines in the rear, exept it is a fighter.
 
September11
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:34 am

Retire, replace, or keep? Must be AA MD-80s at war?

Quoting QXatFAT (Reply 1):

But yes get rid of the MD-80's.

Care to explain why?

I'll say keep the MD-80s. Clearly, they are one of AA's biggest asset. Again, keep the MD-80s!


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columba
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:40 am

One question since the MD 80 is now mostly refered as the Boeing MD 80 how does American and other airlines refer to it on their safety cards or on their cabin announcements "Welcome on board our Boeing MD 80 aircraft" ?
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
LAXintl
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:47 am

Well since the comment of MD-80s operating cost versus the B738 has come up several times, here is AA's DOT data for the 12 months of 2005 on the types. Cost are per block hour.

MD-80
Crew - $613
Fuel - $1584 (932gal/hr)
Ownership - $354
Insurance/Taxes/Misc - $50
Maintenance - $615
TOTAL - $3216

B737-800
Crew - $757
Fuel - $1333 (788gal/hr)
Ownership - $675
Insurance/Taxes/Misc - $47
Maintenance - $215
TOTAL - $3027

While on the surface the types look reasonably close, the MD-80s block hour fuel cost exceed the B738 while its maintenance cost are nearly three times that of the B738. Only real area where the MD80 has an advantage is lower ownership cost versus the newer B738s.

On a Cost per seat basis per block hour the AA MD-80 comes out to $23.65 while 738 comes in at $20.45 a 15% efficiency for the 738.
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BA787
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 1:59 am

I would say that AA will keep their MD80S for a while yet, They will gradually replace them with 738. I think MD80S will be in AA livery for a good ten to fifteen years yet. Not by choice but by finances

Tom
 
qqflyboy
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:08 am

In the near term, I think if we were to see an aircraft order it would not be to replace the entire MD-80 fleet. I think what is most likely is the remaining 738s (47, I believe) that are on order will be delivered and the oldest 47 MD-80s will be retired. If the Airbus deal were ever to come to fruition, it would only be 100-120 airframes and would replace that many MD-80s. In the long term, AA will still have a fleet of 100 or more Maddogs flying for years to come... remember, the newest MD-80 in AA's fleet (and the last MD-80 ever built) was built in 1999.

Back to the Airbus deal. I have been told that AA has been approached by Airbus several times in the past trying to drum up interest. What made it different this time is AA actually started negotiating with Airbus. The fact AA is/was in negotiations with Airbus is a big deal in and of itself. Whether it will lead to an order or not is a whole other thing. Apparently the deal being offered was good enough for AA to take a look at it. Of the people I've talked to about the situation, none of them know where it stands now.

So what are the particulars of the deal? The deal was for a mix of A320/A319 (primarily 319s) totalling 100 aircraft and Airbus would "take" 100 MD-80s from AA. The deal also included 19 A319LRs for "free" (whatever that means), totalling 119 aircraft. The deal would include free maintenance for five years and no lease payments for five years. The five year number was decided upon because AA's plan is to begin replacing the MD-80 at that time anyway, and would have incurred the costs of new aircraft.

Now, however likely or unlikely the above scenario is, AA and Airbus are/were in negotiations and the above was the preliminary scene. Where it will go from here is anyone's guess, but it at least sheds light on the fact AA is beginning to think about an MD-80 replacement and Airbus isn't so unlikely a candidate for future AA business.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
dutchjet
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 39):
The deal would include free maintenance for five years and no lease payments for five years



Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 39):
Airbus would "take" 100 MD-80s from AA.

Yeah, this is happening. Airbus if offering AA free airplanes and a refund to boot.

I am a Boeing guy, but you can be certain that Airbus is not so desperate as to give away airplanes and put cash into the airlines pockets.

I am sure that someone told you this story, and Airbus and AA could even be talking....everyone talks......but you can be sure that this is not the deal that is on the table.
 
qqflyboy
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:14 am

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 22):
I once personally know the man who owned AE in DFW. Perhaps he had sold his share to AMR in recent times?

It was in the late 1990s AMR set out to purchase all the carriers that made up the AE network to make it one airline owned by AMR. I don't know who owned the DFW operation at the time, but I was familiar with Wings West which was (or was part of) the LAX Eagle operation. I used to be an agent with Reno Air and we had a codeshare with them for flights throughout SoCal from LAX. Even though it was American Eagle, they were really operated by Wings West.

I think the last of the airlines added to the Eagle network (and purchased by AMR) was BizEx in the northeast.

Quoting Captaink (Reply 31):
Executive Air operates for American Eagle out of San Juan

Thanks for the info. I thought it was Executive, but then thought I might be mixing that up with BizEx in the northeast.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
dutchjet
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting Qqflyboy (Reply 39):
The deal also included 19 A319LRs for "free" (whatever that means),

I missed that part......19 free airplanes in addition to free leases and free maintaince on the first 100. Is free fuel included as well? If this were the case, then AA is crazy not to sign up for this deal.

Anyone want to start an airline....Airbus is giving away airplanes this week.

You are too smart to think that any of this is serious.
 
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TVNWZ
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 37):
On a Cost per seat basis per block hour the AA MD-80 comes out to $23.65 while 738 comes in at $20.45 a 15% efficiency for the 738.

Actually, I thought this, and the fuel costs in your post, would have been more. the MD 80's run far shorter routes on average than the 738's thus skewing the cost even higher. That is not a bad cost for the Mad Dogs actually.
 
emseeeye
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:33 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 42):

I missed that part......19 free airplanes in addition to free leases and free maintaince on the first 100. Is free fuel included as well? If this were the case, then AA is crazy not to sign up for this deal.

Anyone want to start an airline....Airbus is giving away airplanes this week.

You are too smart to think that any of this is serious.

I wouldnt call this "desperation" on the part of Airbus. They are trying hard to land a major deal on the biggest airline in the world... Maybe Boeing should pony up the free frames also. This should be interesting to watch.
 
dutchjet
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 44):

I wouldnt call this "desperation" on the part of Airbus. They are trying hard to land a major deal on the biggest airline in the world... Maybe Boeing should pony up the free frames also. This should be interesting to watch.

I disagree:

1. 100 brand new aircraft for 5 years with no lease payments.

2. 100 aircraft with 5 years with "Free Maintainence" (whatever that means?)

3. 19 brand new Free A319LRs (I assume that those planes get the free maintainance deal as well).

4. Airbus takes (as in purchases or remarkets or guarantees a value for?) 100 MD80s that are 20-25 years old.

If Airbus is doing this, they are most certainly desperate.
 
qqflyboy
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:01 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 40):
I am sure that someone told you this story, and Airbus and AA could even be talking....everyone talks......but you can be sure that this is not the deal that is on the table.

Without knowing the context in how the word "free" was used, we really don't know. Remember, the deal AA inked with MD back in the day for the MD-80 basically gave AA a "free" MD-80 for every nth plane they took delivery of. The plane may not actually be free, but the discounts given on each aircraft may actually equate to a "free" aircraft for every nth plane delivered.

Didn't Jetblue ink a similar deal with Airbus?

We can all debate what kind of state Airbus is in, financially or otherwise, but one thing is clear, an order by AA for more Airbus aircraft would be a huge feather in Airbus' cap. And let me add this, foriegn politics are at work here, too, according to one of the chief pilots I spoke to about the deal.

Trust me, I'm like you. I'm skeptical this will ever go through, but I am sure just about anything comes up in negotiations, even a deal like this one. The MD-80s AA would be giving Airbus are all paid for, and there is probably a healthy market for them somewhere, whether it be the aircraft as a whole or parts. Airbus stands to make a lot of money off those 100 MD-80s, hence the "giveaways" in the AA/Airbus deal.
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qqflyboy
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:10 am

Let me add this, too. I don't believe we'll see a deal like this between AA and Airbus. What I do think is anything is possible, and I think the bigger part of this story is AA and Airbus are negotiating. It's like the Hatfield's and McCoy's having a sitdown over coffee... no one thought it would happen. Whatever the terms of any deal, we can be sure it will benefit both parties.
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dutchjet
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 46):
Didn't Jetblue ink a similar deal with Airbus?

JetBlue's deal with Airbus calls for some back ended payments and some deferred payments.......but is nothing as radical as this as far as I know. And, JetBlue did not get "free airplanes" as a bonus not did Airbus take 100 old MD80s in trade.

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 46):
The MD-80s AA would be giving Airbus are all paid for, and there is probably a healthy market for them somewhere, whether it be the aircraft as a whole or parts

Not really, there are a good number of MD80s parked in the desert with little interest....think about the CO MD80 fleet for example. Also consider that AS will soon begin dumping their MD80s, and there are a lot of MD80s out there with no one interested in flying them.

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 46):
And let me add this, foriegn politics are at work here, too,

Are you saying that AA wants to make a political statement against Boeing and the United States??

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 46):
MD back in the day for the MD-80 basically gave AA a "free" MD-80 for every nth plane they took delivery of

There is no doubt that AA got a very good deal on their MD80s......and received huge discounts. It wasnt such a good deal for McD however.

Quoting QQflyboy (Reply 46):
Trust me, I'm like you. I'm skeptical this will ever go through, but I am sure just about anything comes up in negotiations, even a deal like this one

You are right to be very skeptical.
 
qqflyboy
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RE: AA's MD-80 Fleet And Its Future, Thoughts?

Sun Jul 02, 2006 4:18 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 48):
Are you saying that AA wants to make a political statement against Boeing and the United States??

I'm not saying anything, I'm just repeating the deal as it was told to me and confirmed by five others. I knew this would be heavily debated and beaten to a pulp on this board. I've known this info for months and decided not to share it because I knew it would be controversial.

I am not of the opinion that the deal, as I stated it above, is going to happen or even viable. I am just the messenger and decided to share it now with everyone here because I knew it would be of interest. And the topic of an MD-80 replacement for AA is nearing NW DC-9 replacement proportions on this forum. So I thought I'd shed some light on the subject... new info not yet discussed.

The bigger part of the story, I believe, is AA and Airbus are/were negotiating. Who would have thought that would happen?
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.

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