thegooddoctor
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A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:50 pm

How about the dozen or so times a day when US Airways sends out 2-3 flights at one time for the same destination (as in sending out two America West operated flights at 1029am): IE. PHX-LAX, PHX-SAN, PHX-ONT, PHX-SNA, PHX-LAS, PHX-SEA, etc...

US does this at five points during the day between PHX and SFO ALONE (usually mixing an A320 with an A319 or 733 in these pairings). If you figure the capacity of an A320 (150) plus that of an A319 (124), it seems like it would be an economical place to start running high-capacity/short range widebodies.


If US has found flight times that sell lots of tickets, how about picking up some old 747SP's and saving some jetfuel?


That's my two cents for the evening (and my pipedream as well...)

S

[Edited 2006-06-27 08:04:53]
The GoodDoctor
 
seanp11
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:57 pm

Cause a 30yr old airframe isn't more fuel efficient than 2 or 3 smaller aircraft? A bunch of A320s and 737s will be more efficient than a 747SP, especially when they only have to fly 400nm.

Just my two cents.  Smile
 
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lindy field
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:06 pm

You've got the trends all wrong. It would be better to send five or six CRJs simultaneously. Small is good. Small is the future.  Smile

I wonder what the 747SP performance would be like out of SAN....
 
SonOfACaptain
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:11 pm

You know, a simple 757 would do the trick.

-SOAC
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kaitak744
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:13 pm

Quoting Lindy Field (Reply 2):
Small is good. Small is the future.

Ok, so in the future, you imagine 2,000 crj flights between JFK and LHR? No, small is not the future. High frequency is. But when you reach a point where you have a flight every 30 minutes (between two cities), you up the size of the aircraft, not continue to add more flights.
 
legoguy
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Tue Jun 27, 2006 3:58 pm

Quoting Lindy Field (Reply 2):
You've got the trends all wrong. It would be better to send five or six CRJs simultaneously. Small is good. Small is the future.

small means more aircraft needed, more aircraft means more pilots, more pilots needed means future job for me and others  Smile Smile Smile
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lindy field
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:09 pm

The trick will be to develop cockpit commonality between a greyhound bus and an RJ. This should make the transfer from bus driver to RJ pilot nearly seamless and allow airlines to get their costs down.

In the more distant future, aircraft manufacturers should try to establish full commonality between RJs and rickshaws.
 
AR385
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:39 pm

The 747SP would be a bad choice because the real benefits from that aircraft come at very high cruising altitude on very long distance flights. I do not know the demand, but if your argument holds, they probably should order some 747-400D's like ANA and JAL These aircraft also have the benefit that they can be converted to a normal 747-400 for international operations. Although we all know how America West fared with the ex-KLM's 747's it got at some point in the 90's, I can't remember exactly.
 
HPRamper
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:05 pm

It would probably be better now than it was then, because of the connectivity and infrastructure improvements, but still not worth a try, in my opinion. I'd rather see some 763s or 764s. 752s are the more likely acquisition...I keep hearing rumors of purchases of these, in any case, almost any station can handle a 757, while anything bigger would be limited to stations with special equipment.
 
Carpethead
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:46 pm

An A333 would nearly work too.
 
dutchjet
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:45 pm

What a concept! Talk about thinking outside-the-box.

1. Saving fuel with the 747SP - thats funny - the 747SP was not a very fuel effecient airplane especially on a per seat basis. And the 747SP was certainly not well suited for short range hops.

2. The routes that you mention are important spokes out of the PHX hub.....in order for the HP/US route system to work, its important that the key destinations that you mention have frequent service with a departure from each "bank" of the hub operation. Also, these short routes attract biz travellers who require frequency on a route.
 
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Fly-K
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:41 pm

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Thread starter):
high-capacity/short range widebodies.

maybe he meant 747SR, not SP?

Otherwise I can't take this suggestion too seriously...
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lincoln
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:48 pm

Not that I don't like big aircraft, but one more thing to keep in mind...

By operating high/multiple frequencies on smaller aircraft US is providing an (albeit small) degree of protection for potential misconnects, etc...

Lincoln
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san747
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:30 pm

I agree with Carpethead that an A330-300 might be a good solution, maybe one of US's current frames. Or HP/US could order a few new A330-300s specifically for the above purposes...
Scotty doesn't know...
 
HPAEAA
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:33 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong.. but it used to be that when US Send 2 planes in the same bank to a destination like LAX, only 1 returned back to PHX for the next bank and usually the other went to LAS... so by combining the flights you would loose the repositioning possibility...
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uclax
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:36 am

The SR premise works in Japan -- why not the American Southwest? It'd make me change away from UA. Welcome from another physician!
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting Lindy Field (Reply 6):
The trick will be to develop cockpit commonality between a greyhound bus and an RJ. This should make the transfer from bus driver to RJ pilot nearly seamless and allow airlines to get their costs down.

I resemble that remark.
29th, Let's Go!
 
rikkus67
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:43 am

Ahh heck, get Airbus to do an SP version of the A380!!
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iowa744fan
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Thread starter):
US does this at five points during the day between PHX and SFO ALONE

First of all, can you show me where in our schedule we do this? The other pairs are all correct, but we don't do any duel ops to SFO. We do them to the other cities that you mentioned, but not to SFO.

Second, the dual ops also have a lot to do with our system network and its layout. In PHX, we have many more cities from the east where flights are coming into than there are cities to the west where flights can go to. So, we face the decision of either having planes sit on the ground and wait until the next bank heading back to the east or using them to run some additional flights to the west coast to cities with larger demands to improve utilization.

Third, bringing a 747 (whether you mean an SP or an SR) would be a poor idea for our company. We presently offer nothing of that size, and more importantly, why are we going to invest in such a large aircraft (and deal with the additional costs of operating a few of the aircraft) to get an aircraft to fly a bunch of short hops between PHX and the West. Sure, the 744 probably has a lower CASM than the 319, 320, or 733, but you still have to try to fill it (which will likely give you a pretty poor RASM on these markets). As for using the 757s or bringing out some 330s, that would only bring us back to the original problem of having a bunch of 319s, 320s, and 733s sitting on the ground at PHX waiting for the next bank. Plus, it would take these aircraft out of service from other key areas where they are needed.
 
dutchjet
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting UCLAX (Reply 15):
The SR premise works in Japan -- why not the American Southwest? It'd make me change away from UA. Welcome from another physician!

Because most domestic air traffic in Japan is point to point - moving lots of pax from one city to another. In the US (geographically much bigger, of course) the airline networks are based around hubs......and for hubs to work, there must be frequent departures on key routes such as the PHX-West Coast routes mentioned. Flying 5 large airplanes per day between PHX and LAX cannot replace 12 to 15 departures.

Quoting San747 (Reply 13):
I agree with Carpethead that an A330-300 might be a good solution, maybe one of US's current frames. Or HP/US could order a few new A330-300s specifically for the above purposes...

Yeah, this is gonna happen?! US is going to pull their precisious A330s off of their profit making international routes to fly them between PHX and ONT. What a great idea.
 
ABQopsHP
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:50 am

There is a reason for 2 flights operating at or near the same time from say PHX-LAX or PHX-SFO or between 2 hubs. The planes dont always return to the same city they just came from. It could be a/c positioning as to why its done. NW does it between its 3 hubs, and I belive its known as "wingtip" flights.
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B742
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:58 am

I can see where your coming from, but I don't think it will happen!

I think PAX would rather have more frequencies on smaller a/c such as A32S's and 737's rather than just have a few daily frequencies on a 747 sized aircraft!

Who know's, maybe when the A350's (or A370's) arrive then the 767's or maybe even A330's could be used!

Rob!  wave 
 
CruzinAltitude
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:09 am

Quoting Legoguy (Reply 5):
small means more aircraft needed, more aircraft means more pilots, more pilots needed means future job for me and others

the above qoute should read as follows:

more aircraft means more pilots, more pilots means more overhead for airlines, more aircraft means more fuel, more fuel means more overhad for airlines, more overhead for airlines means more airlines tetering on the brink of bankruptcy, more airlines teetering on the brink of bankruptcy means more pilots being furghloghed.
 
QXatFAT
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:15 am

No way a 747 will be used on these. A 757 would be just fine with another 737 maybe. First off they already have 757's in their fleet. So HP/US would not have to start from scratch again with 747's. And if anything, they would use a 747 on the FAT-LAS flight  Wink just a joke! But here at FAT we were just upgraded to mainline equipment from a CRJ to a A319 and a CRJ to LAS. So in short, 757 is best bet. 747 is asking way to much
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QantasA380
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:48 am

Quoting HPAEAA (Reply 14):
Correct me if I'm wrong.. but it used to be that when US Send 2 planes in the same bank to a destination like LAX, only 1 returned back to PHX for the next bank and usually the other went to LAS... so by combining the flights you would loose the repositioning possibility...



Quoting ABQopsHP (Reply 20):
There is a reason for 2 flights operating at or near the same time from say PHX-LAX or PHX-SFO or between 2 hubs. The planes dont always return to the same city they just came from. It could be a/c positioning as to why its done. NW does it between its 3 hubs, and I belive its known as "wingtip" flights.

This is exactly why US would prefer to send two or more smaller aircraft on the same route at the same time than to send one larger aircraft - because those smaller aircraft feed onto flights on a number of routes out of the original destination. Happens over here as well, though not perhaps on the same scale as in the USA... and not only on the SYD/MEL pair.
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Adam727
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:55 am

I thought that AWA/US used the 757 on a dual flight from lax-phx or phx-lax I could be wrong but I thought I saw them use a 757 along with a 737. I could be wrong though
 
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:35 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Thread starter):
If US has found flight times that sell lots of tickets, how about picking up some old 747SP's and saving some jetfuel?

In a related story, why doesn't United buy some IL62's?  Yeah sure

And people wonder why no one takes this forum seriously.
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:55 am

Here in TUS, we have four CR9's between 6AM and 8AM, including two at 7AM. Most of the time, three will leave in a 15-20 minute period because of traffic flow problems at PHX. I remember one morning in May, all four left in a twenty minute period around 8AM because of a problem with Albuquerque ARTCC. I think a 757 and an A320 would be more fuel efficient than FOUR CR9's, seeing as all these A/C fly down at night and return the next morning. Some people would wait longer in PHX for their connection, but they would probably be more comfortable on a bigger plane. (Although I have never been on a CR9 so I wouldn't know.) Does anyone else think this market would be more viable for two large A/C versus four small ones?
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flydreamliner
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:07 am

Quoting Lindy Field (Reply 2):

I wonder what the 747SP performance would be like out of SAN....

Uhh, it would hit that parking ramp at the end of the runway.

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 3):
You know, a simple 757 would do the trick.

Uhh, last time i checked 757 does not equal 733 plus 319 plus 320. More like 763 or A333.

The smaller jets allows more flexibility and fleet commonality.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
steeler83
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:08 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 19):
Yeah, this is gonna happen?! US is going to pull their precisious A330s off of their profit making international routes to fly them between PHX and ONT. What a great idea.

Yeah... I think so too...

Quoting B742 (Reply 21):
I think PAX would rather have more frequencies on smaller a/c such as A32S's and 737's rather than just have a few daily frequencies on a 747 sized aircraft!

I agree with this statement as well. More flights to me equals more choices for pax to choose from. Just having a few large aircraft between large markets out of PHX doesn't give pax much to choose from. There may be people that have to connect to other places at certain times. Do you think people want to rush to connect from one gate to another or wait around at a terminal for several hours? If US was to have a 747sp, they'd be wise to use that on more international routes, like transpacific routes if they ever want to open that up in the future out of markest such as PHX or PHL (although I am sure that they will not go with the 747sp, but likely with the A350 as soon as it's launched...)
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HPRamper
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:24 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 27):
Does anyone else think this market would be more viable for two large A/C versus four small ones?

You're getting a permanent mainline upgrade on July 1, I think that's a start. But again, it's more about frequency. The majority of passengers would simply rather take a flight on a smaller plane sooner rather than wait around a few hours for a larger aircraft, and have to plan their day and itinerary around two specific times of day, where there is less wiggle room in case you get stuck in traffic on the way to the airport, get hung up in security etc.
 
Zone1
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:32 am

I think this is a great idea. Not only would you not have to fly at the same time to LAX, ONT, and SAN because they are pretty much the same destination, but you would also save money in paying the crew since the 747 is the fastest commercial jet in service.  sarcastic 
/// U N I T E D
 
thering
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:39 am

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Thread starter):

If US has found flight times that sell lots of tickets, how about picking up some old 747SP's and saving some jetfuel?

A 747-SP waist more full that a bunch of A320/319 or B733! A 30 years old airplane can't be more efficient than a brand new one like A320 or 733.
A simple B757 would solve this problem! If you really want a widebody, a B762 or B763 would be good, as well as getting new B764, a good ariplane for high demand domestic flights!
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upsmd11
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:03 am

US has been doing the wingtip flights for years. When I used to commute between EWR and SDF there were always 2 flights leaving EWR bound for PIT. This was back when US served many destinations from EWR so the traffic there was good. This is not the case now.

The wingtip flights were good and it gave US flexibility in getting folks to the hub, etc. If one were to cancel because of a mechanical they could put people on the other, switch people around, etc.

I think the airlines are always learning but I also think they do have plenty of folks who know what they are doing when it comes to building schedules and putting the right aircraft for the mission into place.

Regards,
John
 
ATCme
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:06 am

Don't forget that if a 747 breaks down, 400 some passengers are stranded, but if a 737 or A320 breaks down, less than 150 are stranded. Thus there is less risk involved with 5 or so smaller jets because at least some of the passengers get to point B, rather than all of them stranded causing chaos at point A and points B through Z (all the connections).

ATCme  spin 
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thering
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:12 am

Also it's better to have 3 or 4 flights than only one, the pax has more time options!
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oneskyjet
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:08 am

dumbest thread I've ever seen
 
phelpsie87
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:17 am

Quoting OneSkyJet (Reply 36):
dumbest thread I've ever seen

hahahahaha agreed!
 
ca2ohHP
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:24 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 27):

Yeah CR9 maintenance is also in TUS, and if those aircraft didn't leave before 9am they would be no good in the system for the rest of the day.

Lindy Field is right, with US, smaller is better.....Q: what's the best replacement for the aging fleet of 737's? A: twice as many RJ's.
 
FURUREFA
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:18 pm

Wow... First of all, why use an SP? Is it because it's 747? It can carry about the same amount of PAX as a 772/A333 or as a DC10. It has 4 engines which means it uses more gas than an a/c with 2 or even 3 engines. Second, it has a flight crew of 3 which means you need to pay a FE, a 772/A333 does not have to pay a FE. I also think, as previously stated, smaller a/c give options; they can choose whether what time to fly, etc... Even though a 747SP is a widebody, a 320 or 733 might be more comfortable because they are more modern.

Matt
 
usair320
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:42 pm

I say put a 762 on the route and save the A333's for transatlantics.
 
thering
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:48 pm

For me there is no discussion:

4 A319/320 flights are much better than a widebody plane flight!
And tell me, why this idea of 747SP? 763, M11, A300/310 would be both newer and better airplanes for this route.
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jetdeltamsy
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:26 pm

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Thread starter):
How about the dozen or so times a day when US Airways sends out 2-3 flights at one time for the same destination

This has been common practice throughout the industry for decades.

I'll never forget the first time I "saw" it. It was TWA out of DCA to STL. There were 5 flights departing within a 30 minutes window.

I think it makes more sense to operate multiple smaller aircraft because when demand is less, you can reduce capacity..keeping fares stable...reducing operating expenses by decreasing the number of flight..etc...
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
FCYTravis
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:36 pm

Worst. Thread. Evar.
USAir A321 service now departing for SFO with fuel stops in CAK, COS and RNO. Enjoy your flight.
 
ABpositive
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:54 pm

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 43):
Worst. Thread. Evar.

Check. Your. Spalling.
 
PADSpot
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:59 pm

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Thread starter):
it seems like it would be an economical place to start running high-capacity/short range widebodies.

That's what A300s were made for ...

Quoting Thering (Reply 41):
4 A319/320 flights are much better than a widebody plane flight!

Keep an eye on your fixed costs! Capital costs of a 762 or A300 are certainly lower than that of serveral relatively new single aisle airplanes. Further more you need a two-man flight crew for each airplane. As long as not all flights are fully booked you can save a flight attendant or two by using a widebody. Additionally maintance costs will be much higher for four narrow-bodies with 8 engines than for one two-to-four engined widebody. Fuel costs will be pretty much the same (2.5-3 tons for an A320/h and about 6tons for an A306/h).

Flexibility is certainly a benefit from using several airplanes instead of one.
 
SonOfACaptain
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:08 pm

Quoting ABpositive (Reply 44):
Check. Your. Spalling.

Periods. Are. Annoying.  wink 

-SOAC
Non Illegitimi Carborundum
 
AR385
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:29 pm

Quoting OneSkyJet (Reply 36):
dumbest thread I've ever seen

Then don't bother to respond and do not waste the time of anyone here by making us read your stupid comment. There are many other threads you can go and read.
 
Cactus739
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RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:54 pm

Quoting Thegooddoctor (Thread starter):
US has found flight times that sell lots of tickets, how about picking up some old 747SP's and saving some jetfuel?



Quoting AR385 (Reply 7):
they probably should order some 747-400D's like ANA and JAL



Quoting Carpethead (Reply 9):
An A333 would nearly work too.



Quoting San747 (Reply 13):
agree with Carpethead that an A330-300 might be a good solution, maybe one of US's current frames. Or HP/US could order a few new A330-300s specifically for the above purposes...

I'm sorry...I'm confused. Are you guys actually serious or working on next years April Fools thread ideas?

Quoting FCYTravis (Reply 43):
Worst. Thread. Evar

Spelling needs a bit of work...but I agree with you my friend.
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: A Dozen Reasons For US Airways To Pick Up 747SP's

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:01 pm

Quoting OneSkyJet (Reply 36):
dumbest thread I've ever seen

Agreed. And it gets worse as it goes along.