Flying Belgian
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NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:13 am

Hi !

That's what I've read in the latest Airliner World issue. In an article dedicated to the Russian Sibir/S7, they said the latter found an agreement with GECAS to lease ten A319s sourced out from NW.

So my question is why is NW getting rid of such new airplanes when they still have to replace their classic fuel burner aka DC9-51 ??


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Any hints from the insiders  Wink ?


FB.

[Edited 2006-06-27 17:19:40]
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
scouseflyer
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:18 am

Cos they own the DC9s and the A319s are on lease so it is cheaper to terminate a lease rather than try and sell a plane that wouldn't have many takers?
 
flypdx
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:23 am

1) Do a search.
2) In case you don't want to, it is because of lease costs on the newer aircraft. On the DC9s they aren't paying to lease them. Just for fuel and other expenses. With the airbus aircraft as well as some other aircraft they have lease costs as well as fuel and other expenses. When it comes down to it, it must be cheaper to keep an older aircraft that may have higher fuel costs than to keep an aircraft on lease with lower fuel costs. Especially if the routes do not require the range of an A319.
 
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United787
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:32 am

This will push the average NW aircraft age down even farther. I thought I remember it being about 19 years old.
 
MaxQ2351
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:40 am

Northwest also has two subfleets of both the A-320 and A-319. In the case of they -319, they have the A-319/113 and A-319/114, the difference being the 114 has slightly uprated motors. It is my understanding that NWA has been trying to eliminate the 113 subfleet in favor of maintaining just the 114 subfleet.

In the case of NWA's A-320's, they have the A-320/211 and A-320/212. They have a decent number of 211's, so I don't think there are any plans to terminate their leases......anytime soon at least.

-Max
The 777-200LR......2 engines 4 longer haul
 
dutchjet
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:20 am

As pointed out, the A319s are leased and the leasing costs can be high - NW probably could not negotiate the lease price down on this group of A319s and thus the leases were terminated pursuant to NW's bankrputcy and will go to a new operator.

Also keep in mind that NW is downsizing its operation and it will need less aircraft - atleast initially - to go forward as it works its way out of bankruptcy. For example, it could be that many of the services once flown with A319s will now be operated by Compass with smaller jets.

Its all about money and costs.
 
md90fan
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:01 am

Hello, Flying Belgian  Smile

The ten NW A319s going to S7 are :N303NB, N304NB, N305NB, N306NB, N307NB, N308NB, N309NB, N311NB N312NB and N310NB. Some are already at MST for repainting as I speak.

These birds were stored at Marana after the whole BK stuff last year.

http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?idr=500&id=666064

The article says the birds of are 1999 build and costed 23 million bucks for S7

Best Regards.
MD90fan  wave 
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
Flying Belgian
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:40 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 6):
Hello, Flying Belgian

The ten NW A319s going to S7 are :N303NB, N304NB, N305NB, N306NB, N307NB, N308NB, N309NB, N311NB N312NB and N310NB. Some are already at MST for repainting as I speak.

These birds were stored at Marana after the whole BK stuff last year.

http://www.kommersant.com/page.asp?idr=500&id=666064

The article says the birds of are 1999 build and costed 23 million bucks for S7

Best Regards.
MD90fan

Many thx MD90fan !!!

FB.
Life is great at 41.000 feet...
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:32 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
As pointed out, the A319s are leased and the leasing costs can be high

Somewhat true, only two A319's are leased.
As of the end of December, which should have been after the fate of the 10 aircraft, NW now owns 64 of the A319's and leases just two, i believe they used to lease 12 319's.

As for the A320's they own 43 of them and lease 32 of them. All the DC-9's are owned, They used to have four leased DC-9's.

They are still going to take delivery of the last 5 A319's on order and 2 A320's on order.
 
RuudOnline
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:04 pm

The busses will be painted at MST.

Check this link for pictures:

http://www.mst-aviation.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4388
 
FlyGuyClt
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:53 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 3):
This will push the average NW aircraft age down even farther. I thought I remember it being about 19 years old.



Stephen

Over 30 DC9's have been parked. I don't think 10 A319's is going to make a difference in a bad way on that note.

Safe Flying  Smile
Florida Express, Braniff II and ......
 
Jano
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:56 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 3):
This will push the average NW aircraft age down even farther. I thought I remember it being about 19 years old.

Let's not forget that NWA took delivery of 18 A330s since summer 2003. There are 14 more still to be delivered.

All DC10s are to be withdrawn from service by Jan 2007.

DC9s are being withdrawn from the service at about 30 per year. Right now there are 115 of them. I remember times some 2 years sago when NWA had more than 160 of these.
The Widget Air Line :)
 
scouseflyer
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:05 pm

Quoting Jano (Reply 11):
DC9s are being withdrawn from the service at about 30 per year. Right now there are 115 of them. I remember times some 2 years sago when NWA had more than 160 of these.

So are the newer A319/20s coming on stream to replace these?
 
Jano
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:11 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 12):
Quoting Jano (Reply 11):
DC9s are being withdrawn from the service at about 30 per year. Right now there are 115 of them. I remember times some 2 years sago when NWA had more than 160 of these.

So are the newer A319/20s coming on stream to replace these

From what I understand by reading posts here by people, who I believe are related to NWA, DC9s are to be replaced by either E170/175 + E190/195 or CRJ700/900. Some of these would be flown by Compass and some by NWA.
The Widget Air Line :)
 
okees
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:02 pm

wow.. when i first read the title of this thread i thought it was "how to get rid of ten A319s?" DOH!
mobs jakis
 
thering
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting Flying Belgian (Thread starter):
So my question is why is NW getting rid of such new airplanes when they still have to replace their classic fuel burner aka DC9-51 ??

They own their DC-9 and lease the A319, so it's much cheaper to get rid of the A319!
146 319 320 321 332 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 742 743 744 762 763 772 773 CRJ ER4 100 F50 F27 M11 D10
 
flydreamliner
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:30 pm

Quoting Jano (Reply 13):
From what I understand by reading posts here by people, who I believe are related to NWA, DC9s are to be replaced by either E170/175 + E190/195 or CRJ700/900. Some of these would be flown by Compass and some by NWA.

That is the plan coming out of NW. They won't be able to buy anything till they exit bankruptcy though. They have more domestic capacity than they need, and they're cutting it. The DC-9s are still cheaper overall to fly since they are paid off. Also, the A319's are worth more money - they can get something by terminating their leases and leasing out the ones they own, or selling them off - anything to pay for their planned international expansion to asia - which is the cornerstone of their plan for profitability. With their NRT hub, they are poised, and have every intention to become the number one American carrier to asia in a big way - coupled with their European expansion plans and thier close relationship with KLM/AF. The A333s will be the backbone of their european expansion, replacing all the DC10s and adding new capacities, their A332 and 787 will be the backbone of their asian expansion. All of this costs money - and their domestic routes are not terribly successful, so at this point, NW's desperate leadership is getting money out of wherever they can.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
boeingguy1
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting Thering (Reply 15):
They own their DC-9 and lease the A319, so it's much cheaper to get rid of the A319!

Thank you for this short burst of wisdom, which obviously wasnt answered in the 6+ posts above you.
Gatwick South! Id rather crash in Brighton!
 
m404
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:06 am

Just wondering if any of the lease agreements being renegotiated allow for acft leased to NWA to be in turned leased to a third party from NWA? Of course this would have to be approved by the original lessor and questions of why not just return and re-lease arise but am curious if, for instance, some short term leases could be done that way for equipment they wanted back after BK reorganization.

[Edited 2006-06-28 22:10:27]
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
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breiz
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:45 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 8):
Somewhat true, only two A319's are leased.

Let's be precise about it: none of the A319 of Northwest are leased in the way that they are rented from a leasing company (ILFC, GECAS,...).
Airlines do like you and me (at least me), they borrow money from banks to buy airliners. Until fully paid, the ac remain kind of the bank's property (not exactly, I know).
So the A319s in question were financed by First Security Bank which sold them (the debt) to Wells Fargo Bank Northwest NA, then State Street Bank which in turn, put them up for sale by auction (maybe some of you saw the auction advertisement in Flight International Feb. 28th, 2006).
And Sibir purchased them.
Sibir was initially interested by getting from GECAS 10 A319s returned by United.
 
727LOVER
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:20 am

Well, nobody's asked, so I'll ask. Why the greenish 733?  Confused
Love Trumps Hate
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:28 am

Seeing there isn't a photo of this in the green colours on this website, here it is from the 'other' one:

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=5759475
 
isitsafenow
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:02 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 3):
This will push the average NW aircraft age down even farther. I thought I remember it being about 19 years old.

So? I was on four of their DC 9's the last two days. You know, they fly
real good. I kinda like them, too.
safe

[Edited 2006-06-29 05:05:25]
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
TL925
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:15 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 20):
Let's be precise about it: none of the A319 of Northwest are leased in the way that they are rented from a leasing company (ILFC, GECAS,...).
Airlines do like you and me (at least me), they borrow money from banks to buy airliners. Until fully paid, the ac remain kind of the bank's property (not exactly, I know).
So the A319s in question were financed by First Security Bank which sold them (the debt) to Wells Fargo Bank Northwest NA, then State Street Bank which in turn, put them up for sale by auction (maybe some of you saw the auction advertisement in Flight International Feb. 28th, 2006).
And Sibir purchased them.
Sibir was initially interested by getting from GECAS 10 A319s returned by United.

Looking at NWA's A319 fleet, they currently have 5 x A319's that are on operating lease with Q Aviation. All were done via a Sale and Leaseback in late 2005. Otherwise, the remaining part of NWA's A319 fleet are on NWA's books.

You are correct in explaining there are two types of leases that are common in aircraft finance. There is a Finance Lease and an Operating Lease.

Finance Lease -
The aircraft is financed by a bank, and the aircraft are owned by a SPC (either controlled by a bank or an orhpan vehicle). The airline makes lease payments (equal to loan repayment) and at the end of a period (usually 10-12 years) after the loan is repaid the airline gets to buy the aircraft at a nominal purchase price. While the legal ownership is with the SPC (makes it easier to repossess in a default), the economic and accounting ownership is with the airline (i.e. the aircraft is on the airline's balance sheet)

Operating Lease -
Ownership of the aircraft is with an Operating Lessor (e.g. ILFA, GECAS, Q Aviation) and the airline makes lease payments for a duration of the lease. At lease expiry the aircraft is returned to the Operating Lessor who is free to remarket the aircraft for the next user. In this case, the aircraft is not owned by the airline but rather the Operating Lessor and accounting wise the aircraft are off-balance sheet.

While other structures exist, these are the two most common ways that airlines can finance aircraft.
 
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breiz
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:34 am

Quoting TL925 (Reply 23):
they currently have 5 x A319's that are on operating lease with Q Aviation.

Interesting, TL925.
Can you indicate which ones?
Thanks in advance.
 
burnsie28
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:53 am

Quoting Flydreamliner (Reply 16):
They won't be able to buy anything till they exit bankruptcy though.

Wrong, just because they are in bk, doesnt mean anything, if its something that they can use to become profitable, it will be allowed.

Quoting Flydreamliner (Reply 16):
They have more domestic capacity than they need, and they're cutting it.

Wrong again, they are re-expanding and will be adding many of the 757's that were sent to the desert, and will be recalling pilots around the late part of this year, most likely they will be hiring next year.

Quoting Flydreamliner (Reply 16):
With their NRT hub, they are poised, and have every intention to become the number one American carrier to asia in a big way

Already there, NW is the largest US airline in Asia and second largest in Japan behind only ANA.

[Edited 2006-06-30 01:54:25]
 
nwafflyer
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:15 am

I've heard, from several pilots - NW, Mesaba and Pinnacle, that the DC-9, even though paid for, is more expensive to operate than the Airbus 319/320

Any airline economists out there?
 
TL925
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RE: NW To Get Rid Of Ten A319s?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:13 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 25):
Interesting, TL925.
Can you indicate which ones?
Thanks in advance.

N371NB, MSN 2095
N372NB, MSN 2369
N373NB, MSN 2373
N374NB, MSN 2464
N375NB, MSN 2474