aeropiggot
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Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:36 am

Can you believe this guy's ego!!!, with this guy at the top we should all be buying Boeing stock now!!!

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060628/france_airbus.html?.v=6
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solnabo
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:42 am

Same ol...same ol!! No bigger than other wanna-be´s

Didn´t Boeing had a quite retarded CEO couple of years ago?

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mariner
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting AeroPiggot (Thread starter):
we should all be buying Boeing stock now!!!

So do it. Get rich. Why bother about Airbus?

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 1):
Same ol...same ol!!

You wouldn't fight for your job?

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 1):
No bigger than other wanna-be´s

During his watch, Airbus became the largest manufacturer of civil aircraft in the world. That's an odd thing for a "wanna-be" to achieve.

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Ken777
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:50 am

Sure Forgeard wants to stay in the job. He's not the type that would like the embarrassment of being pushed out plus he might be able to keep the stock sales investigation under a little more control.

The Board at Boeing properly ousted a CEO not long ago when his behavior was not appropriate. Now, with Forgeart's stock sales clearly in the public eye, it will be interesting to see if Airbus has a Board that holds their CEO's to the same high standards.
 
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:51 am

One thing is for certain: Leahy aint the answer to Airbus woes.
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mariner
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 4):
One thing is for certain: Leahy aint the answer to Airbus woes.

I am not sure how he got into this "bash Forgeard" thread.

 confused 

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Picard
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:03 am

Although Forgeard may not be the best CEO on this planet, I want to ask how can anyone on in this post know what his job is like? Can anyone here do his job or do anywhere near as well as he has? If not how can you judge?
 
leelaw
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:16 am

From Article:

One proposal under discussion would see both CEO posts kept, with one devoted entirely to troubleshooting at Airbus -- a plan Forgeard endorsed at the hearing, while underlining his own suitability for the job.

Now that's having chutzpah!
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mariner
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 7):
Now that's having chutzpah!

Life would be very dull without it.

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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 1):
Same ol...same ol!! No bigger than other wanna-be´s

Hi, Solnabo.

Thanks for your message. You are right, I misunderstood your post. I thought you referring to M. Forgeard.

Now I see that you meant "someone else" - and I can only agree with you.

 Smile

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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 8):
Quoting Leelaw (Reply 7):
Now that's having chutzpah!

Life would be very dull without it.

I agree, it must have been great theater in the hearing room with all the hostile french politicoes leering down from the dais as the "french leprechaun" vigorously defended "ango-saxon" compensation schemes. Big grin
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:50 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 10):
it must have been great theater in the hearing room

Yep, great theatre. Wish I'd been there.

Who knows, he may even win and give a number of a.netters conniption fits.

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okelleynyc
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:52 am

Personally, I could care less whether Forgeard remains or leaves. And I don't wish to sound callous. The theatrics are interesting, however:

Yes, CEOs are important and yes they are the face of the organization, but he's not the one who's going to crawl around in the A380 splicing wiring harnesses.

If he stays, then I'd I liked to hear more about how he is marshaling resources and expertise to address the current production issues and support the efforts of the folks in the assembly halls. I would suspect that they (the line workers) may feel slightly abandoned and left holding the bag? Or - maybe they're more in tune with the facts at hand, are already working the bugs out, and are confident that the worst is behind them.

Quoting Picard (Reply 6):
Although Forgeard may not be the best CEO on this planet, I want to ask how can anyone on in this post know what his job is like? Can anyone here do his job or do anywhere near as well as he has? If not how can you judge?

I certainly wouldn't want to walk a mile in his shoes, Picard. I can't even imagine how much pressure he must be under given conflicting directives, a split management hierarchy, political interference, the press, the airlines and not to mention the auditors turning over every file cabinet in my office.

I only hope that we see a more proactive leader, one who's in charge and setting a clear direction, rather than the current vision we've been presented.

Maybe this perceived persona is exacerbated by the "media" and he does have things firmly in control. I also understand that he needs to "defend" himself aggressively; I would too. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and hope to hear a full disclosure of the challenges the facing the A380 along with a cogent recovery plan. Otherwise, lose the hubris and find a person that is capable of getting this great beast in the air and generating some revenue. I'm anxious to see it grace the skies - regardless of its economics.  Wink

The current side show seems to be distracting from the real issues - certification and EIS.

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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):
During his watch, Airbus became the largest manufacturer of civil aircraft in the world. That's an odd thing for a "wanna-be" to achieve.

What winning new aircraft were designed under Forgeard's watch ? The only thing Forgeard as able to do for Airbus was provide ooddles of money from the European tax payer to Airbus ! Nothing to write home about !

Under Forgeard's watch Airbus is now in one of there worse situations in there history . Blunders that were made by him half a decade ago are now materializing .

Mr "Foot in the Mouth" Forgeard is a liablity for Airbus not an asset !

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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:15 am

Quoting Picard (Reply 6):
Can anyone here do his job or do anywhere near as well as he has? If not how can you judge?

Fundamental missteps in the overall strategy of your commercial aircraft segment is a pretty major whiff. And makes it easy to judge.
 
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 14):
Quoting Picard (Reply 6):
Can anyone here do his job or do anywhere near as well as he has? If not how can you judge?

Fundamental missteps in the overall strategy of your commercial aircraft segment is a pretty major whiff. And makes it easy to judge.

A380 misstep? You believe it was a misstep I believe there was a legitimate business case for it.

A350? Its easy to say it was a misstep with hindsight, but who at the time could guess the rise in fuel prices?

Its looks easy from the comfort of siting infront of your computer but I am pretty sure his job and all the decisions he has made is less than easy.

[Edited 2006-06-28 23:21:57]
 
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:21 am

I must reiterate my personal sentiment that I would be more than delighted to see Forgeard take a hike. His "consultancy", or whatever he thinks is the great job he could do, could also be accomplished without holding his current position. One can even create the position of "Inspector-General" and let him have what might or might not be a sinecure -- at considerably less pay and prestige.

There is an appearance of impropriety here that I think is significant. And I do not think that it is quite to be expected, or even particularly becoming, for someone as high up in the organization as this man should "fight for his job", since his job is in some ways more of a public (or at least shareholder) trust than an ordinary position.

I think that Leahy should also offer his resignation if it is true that he oversold the customizability of A380 with insufficient regard for the difficulty of compliance.

[Edited 2006-06-28 23:26:28]
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting Picard (Reply 15):
Its easy to say it was a misstep with hindsight, but who at the time could guess the rise in fuel prices?

Uhhh....just about everyone on EARTH including BOEING. The supply and capacity trends have been going that way for years. They are in the transportation busines for god sakes. They should have seen it.

I agree that Forgeard is overrated. He came in 1998 and oversaw the A340-500, A380 and A350/70. None of them are Airbus's finest achievements from. Airbus's other successes that is really what built Forgeard's reputation predate his arrival. More over, look at the opportunity costs of not competing earlier with the 787 and more sucessfully with the 777.

In fact, a dispassionate look shows that Forgeard actually was a pretty pedestrian CEO and he bet most of the company on the A380 and then didn't deliver (so far). He allowed Boeing to have no competition in the largest part of the widebody market. I think Airbus can do A LOT better.

Sorry.
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Picard (Reply 15):
A380 misstep? You believe it was a misstep I believe there was a legitimate business case for it.

You may believe in whatever you want but it doesn't mean most aerospace pundits or aviation industry watchers would agree, to this day by the way.

Quoting Picard (Reply 15):
A350? Its easy to say it was a misstep with hindsight, but who at the time could guess the rise in fuel prices?

The A350 debacle has nothing to do with fuel prices but with underestimating the 787. The only Airbus affected by fuel prices is A340.
 
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting Mrcomet (Reply 17):
Quoting Picard (Reply 15):
Its easy to say it was a misstep with hindsight, but who at the time could guess the rise in fuel prices?

Uhhh....just about everyone on EARTH including BOEING. The supply and capacity trends have been going that way for years.

The A380 project was started well over 10 years ago back when fuel prices where stable and looked like it would be for sometime, yes I am sure prices where expected to go up. But prediction for the current level of fuel costs?

Lets see all the predictions on fuel costs for the next 10 years and see how many get it correct?

As said above A380 good or bad, yet to be seen.
 
spartanmjf
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:08 am

There is an old addage in business that goes something like "the management that got you into trouble can't get you out of trouble."

Nuff said.
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:21 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 1):
Didn´t Boeing have a quite retarded CEO couple of years ago?

Yes, Boeing's CEO of a few years ago was quite retarded. But Condit's ego was nowhere near Forgeard's.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):
During his watch, Airbus became the largest manufacturer of civil aircraft in the world.

During his watch Airbus lost its lead as the largest manufacturer of civil aircraft in the world [that hasn't happened yet but will in 2007]; squandered billions on an aircraft that is not needed [yet]; and Airbus effectively gave up the mid-market to its rival for approximately six years.

There is a time and place for every CEO in an organization's life-cycle. Forgeard's time has passed. To use the argument that he was good for the company in the past fails to address the company's needs in the future.

Quoting Picard (Reply 19):
Lets see all the predictions on fuel costs for the next 10 years and see how many get it correct?

I predict they will come down to and stabilize around $40 - $50 bbl.
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mariner
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 21):
During his watch Airbus lost its lead as the largest manufacturer of civil aircraft in the world [that hasn't happened yet but will in 2007];

As you note, it hasn't happened yet, and he is no longer CEO of Airbus.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 21):
Forgeard's time has passed. To use the argument that he was good for the company in the past fails to address the company's needs in the future.

That may be true, I am not arguing for or against his continued role at EADS or Airbus.

But I very much dislike the "bash-Forgeard for everything" attitude so prevalent on a.net.

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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:28 am

All this is not to say that Airbus is a bad company. Far from it. It's a good company, from what I can see of it. It's a very advanced company from a technological standpoint and it employs a great many talented individuals. By and large, labor relations appear good and physical infrastructure, as far as I can tell, is more than satisfactory.

Airbus has the know-how to make good large airplanes that I am proud to fly on. Darned good thing, too, since I would never want to fly on aircraft made by a crummy company.

However, from a program standpoint, there are real issues. I don't know how one can gloss over the A350 fiasco, let alone the A380 delays. And various other aircraft programs at Airbus have not been as competitive with the 777 as they could have been. Many people -- rightly, I think -- point to these factors as failures of strategic leadership, and as it stands, I think that the motto in this case is that the captain goes down with the ship. While the ship isn't sinking, the profit potential of Airbus right now appears to be. And the significant declines in shareholder value of its corporate parent, EADS -- who could be pleased at that? BAE and shareholders are abuzz with talk of litigation.

I would say this: If Forgeard is the best hope for Airbus, I think that Airbus may be quite doomed. But because I know that Airbus is far more than what Forgeard's talents (which in the past were not inconsiderable) can offer, I think that Airbus will pull through and do nicely in the near future.

I just don't think it should be under Forgeard.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
But I very much dislike the "bash-Forgeard for everything" attitude so prevalent on a.net.

I think that if we bash Forgeard for what appears to have turned to mush under his watch (e.g., the A380 production schedule; the A350 program) then that's certainly sufficient, and since these things are much in the news these days, then it may very well be that he is being bashed a great deal -- even if not for everything. But my philosophy is, as far as Forgeard's fault may be concerned: If the shoe fits....

Who better to blame, in any event? Hamburg? Enders? Engineering? I would rather not, actually.

[Edited 2006-06-29 00:46:06]
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 23):
I don't know how one can gloss over the A350 fiasco,

One could argue that the A350 "fiasco" was initiated by other people - that the mistake on the part of Airbus was to respond.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 23):
If Forgeard is the best hope for Airbus, I think that Airbus may be quite doomed.

M. Forgeard is not the CEO of Airbus. He still may - stress "may" - be its best hope, because the actual CEO doesn't appear to be doing much.

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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:36 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
One could argue that the A350 "fiasco" was initiated by other people - that the mistake on the part of Airbus was to respond.

With respect: How so, I wonder? I thought that the A350 was supposedly the 787-killer. Didn't Leahy and the like at Airbus, under Forgeard, openly dismiss the prospects for Boeing's so-called "clone" of a plane, the Dreamliner? Was this not with the open or at least tacit approval of Forgeard? If this is what you meant by "response", then I would agree. It's the kind of contemptuous attitude that makes the entire industry look a bit petty.

This is not about a couple of diners slinging hash. It's not even Coke versus Pepsi. These are two of the largest industrial conglomerates in the world, supposedly with the performance and reliability of their respective products foremost in their minds.

I'm a bit curious who is at fault, in your view, for the problems with the A350. Surely not the airlines or ILFC?

By the way, I wonder what Forgeard now thinks about Boeing's "plastic plane".

[Edited 2006-06-29 00:53:37]
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mariner
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 25):
I thought that the A350 was supposedly the 787-killer. Didn't Leahy and the like at Airbus, under Forgeard, openly dismiss the prospects for Boeing's so-called "poor clone", the Dreamliner? Was this not with the open or at least tacit approval of Forgeard?

I'm not sure what else you would have had them say. Everyone puffs their own product.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 25):
in your view, for the problems with the A350.

I don't think there were problems with the A350. It was never a world beater - it couldn't be and it can't be, it will only ever be a derivative.

It may well have relegated Airbus to second place in the field, but I don't have a problem with that.

The "chaos" or fiasco" or whatever you want to call it that exists now - with which I do agree - is that no one knows anymore what it is.

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 25):
I wonder what Forgeard now thinks about Boeing's "plastic plane".

I think we already know that. But I also remember that many, many people - and especially here - used to slam Airbus aircraft as "plastic planes".

That stopped after Boeing announced the 787.

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Lumberton
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
Everyone puffs their own product.

There's a difference between "puffing" one's product and deriding the competition. The "chinese copy" quote was clearly meant to ridicule.
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:07 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 27):
The "chinese copy" quote was clearly meant to ridicule.

Okay, so - a salesman who is a known loud-mouth (as well as being a pretty good salesman) said something you don't like.

It should have been an early warning sign that Boeing had seriously caught the competitor on the hop.

Or are you suggesting that the comment has hurt the sales of the 787?

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Lumberton
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:10 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 28):
Okay, so - a salesman who is a known loud-mouth (as well as being a pretty good salesman) said something you don't like.

Chill out, Mariner. BTW, it was Forgeard who made the "chinese copy" statement. Google it.
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:12 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 29):
Chill out, Mariner.

Who's not chill?

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 29):
BTW, it was Forgeard who made the "chinese copy" statement. Google it.

You don't think the salesman comment applies to M. Forgeard?

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Lumberton
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 30):
You don't think the salesman comment applies to M. Forgeard?

No.
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leelaw
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:15 am

IMO, the fact that the Forgeard "Showboat" remains afloat under withering fire that would have sunk most other CEOs days ago, indicates the patronage of Mr. Chirac remains intact. One wonders why it's not politically expediant to cut him loose and move on?

[Edited 2006-06-29 01:26:28]
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Ruscoe
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:17 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):
During his watch, Airbus became the largest manufacturer of civil aircraft in the world. That's an odd thing for a "wanna-be" to achieve.

I know there are varying opinions on this, but in my opinion the underlying reason why Airbus was able to put themselves in this position, was not the availability of Govt money but the fact that they knew it was not a risk to the survival of the Company even if the project failed. Now as it has turned out they have come up with the goods, and could have funded new products entirely with private money (excluding the very early years). The significance of this is that it makes risk taking a lot easier, but on the downside it is probably just this lack of risk with earlier projects which has resulted ultimately in the situation they find themselves in now with the 380.

A quick look at the financials shows that the cost of borrowings is increasing rapidly, I presume from private investor money to develop the 380. So now airbus are starting to expose themselves to the realities.
However all the political carrying on is evidence enough that Airbus will get the support from Govt it needs and really is not "mature" .

Ruscoe
 
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:25 am

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 33):
and really is not "mature" .

I don't see how it can be. It is a first in an almost unique socio-political and historical situation.

You want it to produce good planes and also be a "matured" example of European Federalism as well?

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 33):
and really is not "mature" .

I don't see how it can be. It is a first in an almost unique socio-political and historical situation.

You want it to produce good planes and also be a "matured" example of European Federalism as well?

Gee.

European Federalism isn't even a certainty yet.

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WarmNuts
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
I don't think there were problems with the A350. It was never a world beater - it couldn't be and it can't be, it will only ever be a derivative.

It may well have relegated Airbus to second place in the field*, but I don't have a problem with that.

*By "field" I presume you mean the market for intermediate-size aircaft -- projected to be 40% of the total dollar-value of the market over the next 20 years.  Wink

Even if this is simply an innocent consequence of a lack of available resources, say due to the requirements of the A380 program, it is nonetheless exactly that: a consequence. While there will always be proponents on either side of an issue, regardless of "right" or "wrong," these are indeed consequences ultimately resulting from management decisions, decisions for which someone is indeed accountable.

Quoting Mrcomet (Reply 17):
I agree that Forgeard is overrated. He came in 1998 and oversaw the A340-500, A380 and A350/70. None of them are Airbus's finest achievements from. Airbus's other successes that is really what built Forgeard's reputation predate his arrival. More over, look at the opportunity costs of not competing earlier with the 787 and more sucessfully with the 777.

In fact, a dispassionate look shows that Forgeard actually was a pretty pedestrian CEO and he bet most of the company on the A380 and then didn't deliver (so far). He allowed Boeing to have no competition in the largest part of the widebody market. I think Airbus can do A LOT better.

Ahhh, yes... the operative word -- a dispassionate look.  Smile

Thank you Mrcomet for your succinct summary. Spot on, IMHO...
 thumbsup 

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 16):



Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 23):



Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 25):

AerospaceFan: The above refernced posts are well articulated and balanced. You qualify what you say and maintain a sense of intellectual honesty.  thumbsup 
 
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mariner
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 8:56 am

Quoting WarmNuts (Reply 35):
these are indeed consequences ultimately resulting from management decisions, decisions for which someone is indeed accountable.

I don't think I said otherwise.

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Shenzhen
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:02 am

"""Forgeard declared during the two-hour committee hearing that his resignation was "out of the question," several of the deputies said afterward."""

I don't quite understand the "out of the question" quote from Forgeard, considering the largest shareholders control the board, and they should make the decision. It would appear to me that these same shareholders have raised this exact question.

Cheers
 
Lumberton
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:04 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 32):
One wonders why it's not politically expediant to cut him loose and move on?

Indeed, one wonders. Speculation...the French and Germans simply can't come to terms on the management structure?

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 33):
the cost of borrowings is increasing rapidly,

Then there are the U.S. dollar hedges. There are posts here that note that EADS' hedges will expire in 2007. Perhaps others can comment....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
andessmf
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:17 am

Quoting Solnabo (Reply 1):

Didn�t Boeing had a quite retarded CEO couple of years ago?

And is this 'retarded' CEO still with Boeing? And did this 'retarded' CEO say that it was better for Boeing to keep him?

Quoting Picard (Reply 19):

The A380 project was started well over 10 years ago back when fuel prices where stable and looked like it would be for sometime, yes I am sure prices where expected to go up. But prediction for the current level of fuel costs?

Fuel costs are one thing, but another thing is that regardless of the price of fuel, you will save money with a more fuel efficient airplane. The amount of savings to an airline will fluctuate, but they still save money, regardless of the price.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:32 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 2):
During his watch, Airbus became the largest manufacturer of civil aircraft in the world. That's an odd thing for a "wanna-be" to achieve.



Quoting Mrcomet (Reply 17):
I agree that Forgeard is overrated. He came in 1998 and oversaw the A340-500, A380 and A350/70. None of them are Airbus's finest achievements from.

Airbus benefited (or was relatively less harmed) from events during Forgeard's tenure that were beyond Airbus's control:

In 1998 the US$ was going up as a result of investors moving funds out of Asia and putting them into the US chasing easy gains in the dot-com/tech bubble, which were further enhanced by the dollar going up even more. At around the same time the Euro was introduced and started going down. The currency movements put pressure on all US manufacturers, including Boeing.

Boeing was also more severely hit by 9/11 as US airlines cut back on aircraft purchases more, and Boeing had more exposure to the US, and had been losing share overseas in part due to the high dollar.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 39):
Fuel costs are one thing, but another thing is that regardless of the price of fuel, you will save money with a more fuel efficient airplane. The amount of savings to an airline will fluctuate, but they still save money, regardless of the price.

But you might save more by buying a less efficient jet if the price of the aircraft is lower. But as the price of gas goes up that becomes less likely.

When fuel is a lower percentage costs, it follows that capital and labor are higher percentage of costs. AA indicated that fuel was 10% before and is now 30% of costs. When fuel is only 10%, cutting crew flight hours or getting an extra flight by using faster jets has a bigger impact on costs than a 20% reduction in fuel expense.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
longhaulheavy
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:40 am

Quoting Picard (Reply 6):
Can anyone here do his job or do anywhere near as well as he has? If not how can you judge?

I'd argue one point beyond that. His job shouldn't even exist. The dual-CEO structure is not something normally recommended my management gurus as it leads to infighting that eventually works its way down into every aspect of the company.

The Romans tried it with three, Airbus is trying it with two - neither systems work very well.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:29 am

I have to agree with MAriner on a lot of this. Forgeard and Leahy (in particular their partnership) are responsible for Airbus's metoric rise, along with the demise of MCDD and Lockheed in the commerical aviation world.

I do believe that a large part (not the majority mind you) of the problems that Airbus is having _right now_ are the results of some iffy decisions. The A380 was pitched as the ultimate wonder-plane, and somehow all of the magical things that were promised for the 747 would materialize here. It would be all planes to all people. Now the customization is killing the schedule, and even though the customer requested it, Airbus is still on the hook. A classic example of workorder management gone horribly horribly wrong.

Leahy's rhetoric worked really well when Boeing had inferior planes. But once Boeing started to field real actual competitors to Airbus products, rather then McDonnel Douglass planes, his language caused some creditability gaps with his customers. Airbus needed to be consistant with that decision. Either upgrade the A320 and call it a upgrade, or build a new plane and call it a new plane.The A350 is the worst of both strategies. Try to keep the price down by upgrading it, but call it a new plane so it looks better on paper. The price is still high, and the 787 beats it on paper.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):

M. Forgeard is not the CEO of Airbus. He still may - stress "may" - be its best hope, because the actual CEO doesn't appear to be doing much.

I'm not sure I share this criticism. More to the point, I believe that the EADS structure itself makes deadlock (the worst possible enemy of a CEO -- unable to steer for better or worse) a certainty.

(Not that it's just a EADS thing... I think all corporations have this issue to some degree or another. I think the pseudo-governmental nature of EADS and the diplomatic nature of the underpinnings make it more of a issue).

At the risk of being flamed, Take a look at Mullally at Boeing. Mullally isn't the head honcho. But he is calling the shots for the aviation biz, and his engineering background is a huge driver for the success of the 777 (his baby) and the 787 (which his team is putting together). You don't see the mixed messages that we are getting bombarded with from Airbus, lack of discipline with sales offers etc.

Corporate governence matters.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 24):
One could argue that the A350 "fiasco" was initiated by other people - that the mistake on the part of Airbus was to respond.

I don't think I have heard anyone in Airbus actually move forward with that as a strategy. Remember that Airbus's core brading was newer, better, bigger then Boeing.

That being said, in hind sight, your position may have been the best for Airbus. Put new engines on, and drop the price to the bare metal and take advantage of the multi year sales gap between the end of the 757 (production) and 767 (viability) like Boeing is with the 777 versus the A340 right now.
 
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mariner
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:04 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 42):
I'm not sure I share this criticism. More to the point, I believe that the EADS structure itself makes deadlock (the worst possible enemy of a CEO -- unable to steer for better or worse) a certainty.

If ever an opportunity existed for a new CEO to establish his position, his power, his credentials, his personality and his vision, it is now, at Airbus.

Or rather, it was within the last ten days. That window of opportunity may be gone, M. Forgeard may have had time to regroup, shore up support and rally his allies.

During this period, Airbus needed - desperately - a leader, a vision and, if nothing else, a morale booster. And there was silence.

I have no doubt that CEO Humbert has a brilliant mind, is a decent man, and is blessed with all the good things people say about him.

But at a time when Airbus needed core leadership, there was a vacuum.

I think.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
Halibut
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:39 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 43):
If ever an opportunity existed for a new CEO to establish his position, his power, his credentials, his personality and his vision, it is now, at Airbus.

Or rather, it was within the last ten days. That window of opportunity may be gone, M. Forgeard may have had time to regroup, shore up support and rally his allies.

During this period, Airbus needed - desperately - a leader, a vision and, if nothing else, a morale booster. And there was silence.

I have no doubt that CEO Humbert has a brilliant mind, is a decent man, and is blessed with all the good things people say about him.

But at a time when Airbus needed core leadership, there was a vacuum.

Though I do not see Forgeard as you do Mariner & feel he and/or certain French goevernment factions are more concerned with gaining more power/control @ Airbus/EADS , rather than doing what's right for the company . I must say "respectively" after reading your reply above . I have come to the conclusion you are the William Shakespeare of A-nett !

 biggrin 

However,
If what you say is true that Forgeard was able survive . I see that as a big negative for Airbus . I doubt the Germanys will be comfortable with that , so that will mean the in-fighting & back stabbing will continue !

Rule # 1 at Airbus & all involved at Airbus .

" Don't trust Noel Forgeard "

Halibut

[Edited 2006-06-29 05:54:19]
6 million Jews were slaughtered-Do you see Jews flying planes into buildings in Germany to kill 1000s of innocent, NO !
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:28 pm

Quoting WarmNuts (Reply 35):
AerospaceFan: The above refernced posts are well articulated and balanced. You qualify what you say and maintain a sense of intellectual honesty.

Thank you for your compliment -- it is much appreciated!

When I have more time, I hope to comment further on some of the other replies here. In the meantime, I must say that I find this Forum and Website as a whole most informative and enjoyable.

Thank you all, as always, for contributing to a most pleasant experience.

(As I am typing this, I am viewing the wonderful series, Pioneers In Avation on KOCE-TV. I highly recommend it! There is also an associated Website -- http://www.pioneersinaviation.com. The program is describing the life and times of James McDonnell -- a true trailblazer in the manner of William Boeing, Dutch Kindelberger, and Donald Douglas before him -- as I write.)

[Edited 2006-06-29 07:46:54]
What's fair is fair.
 
NAV20
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:52 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 32):
IMO, the fact that the Forgeard "Showboat" remains afloat under withering fire that would have sunk most other CEOs days ago, indicates the patronage of Mr. Chirac remains intact. One wonders why it's not politically expediant to cut him loose and move on?

At a guess, because Chirac as well as de Villepin was up to his neck in the Clearstream affair, and Forgeard is in a position to blow the whistle big-time if he gets fired.

The fact that both blocs - French and German - have exactly the same shareholdings and voting powers seems to have produced a predictable deadlock. My guess is that the French want to fire a German and the Germans want to fire a Frenchman. Probably the only thing both sides can agree on is to fire an American (Leahy)?

One thing is clear - SOMEONE has to be fired. The only way to restore confidence, especially in the share market, is to appoint a new manager with a proven track record; who will then frankly admit what went wrong, formulate an effective plan for putting things right, and then put the plan into practice.

That is just straight business thinking. It has nothing to do with whose fault it was, or even whether Forgeard and Co. were actually indulging in insider trading or concealing 'price-sensitive' information. It's just that experience has shown that 'rolling heads and a new broom' are the ONLY way to restore confidence after a mess like this.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
leelaw
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:00 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 38):
Quoting Leelaw (Reply 32):
One wonders why it's not politically expediant to cut him loose and move on?

Indeed, one wonders. Speculation...the French and Germans simply can't come to terms on the management structure?



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 46):


WSJ 06/29/06 (fair use excerpt):

...Mr. Forgeard's status will depend on the outcome of talks between EADS core shareholders -- Germany's DaimlerChrysler AG and France's Lagardère SCA. People close to the talks said neither side is defending Mr. Forgeard. But the talks were still bogged down over key questions, including who would succeed Mr. Forgeard, whether other executives would also be dismissed, and how power would remain balanced between French and German shareholders. Though Mr. Forgeard has come under fire in France and Germany, he may still keep his post, these people said...

...The EADS controversy has become highly political because the opposition Socialist Party is using troubles around Mr. Forgeard, who once worked for Jacques Chirac, as a way to attack the unpopular French president. Mr. Chirac, until recently a key backer of Mr. Forgeard, has withheld public support for him.

The most likely German to go would be Airbus Chief Executive Gustav Humbert, under whose leadership the A380 delays recently worsened. But his dismissal would raise further problems because he has no obvious successor. Airbus Chief Operating Officer Charles Champion has run the A380 program for several years, so is tainted by its problems. Below him in the organization, Airbus has few, if any, managers with experience running complex manufacturing operations, a huge commercial organization and delicate political maneuvering, said people inside Airbus and EADS.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB115149108257792919.html
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mbj2000
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:30 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 46):
The fact that both blocs - French and German - have exactly the same shareholdings and voting powers seems to have produced a predictable deadlock. My guess is that the French want to fire a German and the Germans want to fire a Frenchman. Probably the only thing both sides can agree on is to fire an American (Leahy)?

They could fire both and hire Condit instead?!  Smile
At first thought of this to be a funny response, but in the end it may not be that stupid after all. Why, maybe Condit would like to show the people who fired him, he's much better and could bring Airbus back to the top?!
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
 
Lumberton
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RE: Forgeard: I'm Still The Best Hope For Airbus

Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:38 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 46):
Probably the only thing both sides can agree on is to fire an American (Leahy)?

Very dangerous course of action, IMO. I suspect Mr. Leahy knows where a skeleton or two are buried. Even if his sacking came with a massive golden parachute, he'd be permanently tarred in the industry. I don't think this guy would go quietly, not for money or to "take one for the team".
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".