UAL747
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Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:56 am

I've always wondered why DFW is so lacking in international carriers. We get AM, Mexicana, BA, LH, KE, and that's about it. DFW is a growing metropolis with many different companies. With the new international terminal D, I would hope that some of the airlines come back, such as AF, LX, maybe IB..among other candidates.

AA has so many connections to the western US, South America, Central America, and others. I've always wondered why BA only has one flight (777) and not multiple 744's! While there are 2 daily AA flights and 1 BA 777 flight to LGW, IAH gets more international service than DFW. I know this is an ongoing question, but doesn't DFW deserve the service as One World's LARGEST hub, and the 2nd or 3rd most busiest airport in the US??

As a former Dallas resident, and hoping to return to Dallas, I would really like to see my home airport get a lot more service. Even perhaps a Lan Chile flight to SCL!

Why is it DFW is doomed as far as international airlines are concerned? There are so many One World Connection there via AA. What's going on? I know that DFW Airport Authority was hoping for more international airlines due to the event of the new international terminal. So where are our airlines?

Japan Airlines and Cathay Pacific are another two I'd wish I'd see at DFW, even EVA Air after their 772LR order, and QF! So many connections and possibilities that cannot only be covered by AA!



UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
ejmmsu
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:59 am

Because they don't have a billion dollar "international terminal" with a multitude of empty gates waiting to be used that has put the airport in a financial bind.....


..... oh wait.. they do.... I guess i've been no help.
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nonrevman
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:02 am

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that Houston is well established in the international runs. They have had KLM for many years and also host the likes of BA, AF, LH, CI, and others. Many foreign carriers see the demand for a market to Texas from their respective hub. They probably do not want to tie up aircraft trying to serve two Texas cities instead of one. DFW is probably seen as a quick connection from IAH in some respects.

I do agree that DFW probably deserves more carriers, but it seems like IAH got there first. Houston is the single largest Texas city and the population overall is similar to DFW, so there is not much of an incentive to serve both Texas cities or to switch from IAH to DFW.
 
texan
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:03 am

Actually, AM and Mexicana are gone. We do have a growing international cargo area. China Airlines, Air China, China Eastern, JAL, Lufthansa, Air France, Singapore, Korean, Cathay Pacific, and Eva Air all have scheduled cargo operations into DFW on jumbos.

The other reason is AA. They have nonstop flights to just about anywhere internationally you could want to go.

Texan
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UAL747
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:17 am

I realize that AA goes about everywhere in their route system from DFW, but connection wise, DFW has way more options for other airlines to codeshare on AA domestic flights than any other AA hub. I seriously think while Qantas is looking at DFW, more airlines should consider the airport for connections. You can get just about anywhere via DFW, several times a day. I wish Delta hadn't gone away so much at DFW, because I think it was a great lower midwest hub for them, and they could feed skyteam airlines many destinations. Anyway, back to OneWorld. I think IB should be very interested in DFW, because of the Latin America destinations. While MIA probably beats DFW in this area, I think DFW is still deserving of an IB flight from MAD since AA has none, and there are many Central and Southern America routes.

Onto ORD, does anyone think that AA will start an ORD-TLV route to compete with the other middle eastern routes a la DL ATL-TLV, CO EWR-TLV, and UA IAD-KWI? How about a DFW-RUH, or ORD-CAI route?

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way
 
Lt-AWACS
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:17 am

One word- AmericanAirlines (or is that two?) is one big reason. Smaller factors include the local business model, geography, and ethnic diversity.

Houston's business and industry are a bit more suited to international travel and trade. There is a reason Houston has over 80 foreign consulates, for example.

DFW gets many of the same destinations as IAH, just not the competition (and in many cases IAH gets the cheaper prices). IAH will continue to have more international pax for a long time IMO.

The DFW board is doing a great job with cargo airlines. EDIT-bad code

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[Edited 2006-06-30 04:36:33]
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D L X
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:36 am

Is Dallas a destination that's on the minds of many foreign citizens? If not, maybe that's why.
 
UAL747
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:39 am

Well, who wants to go to Houston? No zoning, terrible city planning, etc.....


I dunno, but I'm a big DFW fan, just want to see my home airport get some more service. At least from One World members. There are 3xDaily BA flights to IAH, only one to DFW. There should be a DFW-ORD-LHR route at the least, or a 747-400 service from LGW, even though the BA 777's are only on Gatwick routes.

UAL
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billreid
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:41 am

Simple Question.

It is a question of demand. Unless there is a solid mix of O & D onboard traffic flights aren't as profitable. Excessive revenue prorate dilutes trip revenues.

DFW just doesn't have strong O&D international demand.
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TWAtwaTWA
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:48 am

As much as I like Dallas as a city, it lags other cities in several areas, contributing to its relative lack of demand for international flights. I have collated this data here; Dallas residents and fans, please do not take offense.

I think we would all agree that greater a city's population the higher the demand for international travel through leisure and business travellers. Dallas does not rank at the top end of the largest cities in america. The Dallas-Fort Worth area is the ninth largest metropolitan area in the US.(1) It is also the ninth in strict city population rank.(2) The top few are NYC, LA, Wash DC, and SF.

A more ethnically diverse and immigrant based population will also demand a higher degree of international travel due to family roots and business interests abroad. The Dallas-Fort Worth area is ranked 15th in diversity by the Brookings Group. In contrast, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Washington DC, and NYC are the top 4.

International business and large scale corporate business within a city generates international travel demand. Inc.com does not even rank Dallas in the top 25 places to do business. (4) Forbes does not rank Dallas in the top 10 places to do business (Houston is #4) (5) Of course, this is not to say that Dallas is not a good place to do business, or that there are not already many corporations headquarted in Dallas- this simply depicts a comparison with other cities that simply have more business demand.

Recently the concept of a "global city" or a "world city" has been introduced. (6) A world city is an internationally "important" city with cultural and economic contributions that generate tourist interest, diversity, affluence, and business. Dallas ranks in the third tier as a gamma world city with 6 points. Other North American cities in the higher tiers are New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Toronto and Mexico City.

There were other categories of rankings as well...in the top ten rankings of world cities for various points, it only hits in the category of "Airports with annual passenger traffic" This brings up the point that the majority of people flying into DFW (60%) are catching connections in AA's major domestic hub. These are mostly domestic connections from smaller american cities to other smaller cities or larger cities in AA's network. AA has "international gateways" LAX and JFK, as well as two other major international hubs , MIA and ORD, that serve to handle more of the international connections from fellow oneworld carriers and also AA's own international flights.

In summary, Dallas-Fort Worth is a large major metropolitan american city, but does not demand the same international travel as the other larger american cities. In addition, the AA network structure has built a very large domestic hub in Dallas, with other AA hubs and "gateway" cities functioning to serve more international travel connections.

___________________________________
(1) http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0884087.html
(2) http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0763098.html
(3) http://www.brookings.org/press/review/winter2002/florida.htm
(4) http://www.inc.com/magazine/20040301/top25.html
(5) http://www.forbes.com/2006/05/04/bes...cz_kb_06bestplaces_0504topten.html
(6) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city
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Lt-AWACS
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:50 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 7):
Well, who wants to go to Houston? No zoning, terrible city planning, etc.....

Well more people than DFW it seems, since there is also lower crime, lower cost of living, etc etc.....

If BA could make money with that flight they would do it, don't you think? (note BillReid's post) Be happy that QANTAS might actually fly there. Heck maybe Air France will come back in the near future.

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reins485
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:55 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 4):


Onto ORD, does anyone think that AA will start an ORD-TLV route to compete with the other middle eastern routes a la DL ATL-TLV, CO EWR-TLV, and UA IAD-KWI? How about a DFW-RUH, or ORD-CAI route?

I do not think you will see AA metal flying to the middle east any time soon. I think the threat to them would be greater than any other airline due to the fact that their name is American Airlines. Just my thought.
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thomasphoto60
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:55 am

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 7):
Well, who wants to go to Houston? No zoning, terrible city planning, etc.....

Who the hell wants to go to Dallas? Arrogant, obnoxious population, terrible city planning......

Bottom line, few have Dallas or Houston on their must visit lists, it's all about business. At this point Houston has it, Dallas seemingly does not. Who knows, oil might drop to $12 a barrel, Houston's economy could tank and the likes of KL, AF, BA, LH might bolt on IAH and head for greener pastures in 'Big-D'.

Thomas
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YULYMX
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:57 am

In DFW isn't there AF going there...

DFW is in Middle of the USA... Not very reachable from every where...
Most of international goes to JFK, EWR, CVG, IAD, BOS, ATL, MIA, DTW, PHL, MCO, (Atlantic) SEA, MSP, LAX, SFO, DEN, PDX, HNL, (Pacific)

DFW is the farthest from either the Atlantic or Pacifique Ocean? from the airport name above...

What is there to do or see in Dallas... beside AA HUB???

True thought DFW and IAH are not that much apart...
 
edelag
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 6):
Is Dallas a destination that's on the minds of many foreign citizens? If not, maybe that's why.

I think it isn't but many foreign people do travel through DFW. In the past year I have connected there about 6 times. But then again out of the 6 times all of them have been with AA.

AA is the emperor, president, chief, general, etc of DFW.
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commavia
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:17 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):
I've always wondered why DFW is so lacking in international carriers. We get AM, Mexicana, BA, LH, KE, and that's about it.

Unfortunately, the airport has actually even lost scheduled Aeromexico and Mexicana flights in the last few months. However, both still run charters on a very regular basis, and scheduled Mexicana flights will be returning shortly to MEX, with other cities possibly to follow.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):
With the new international terminal D, I would hope that some of the airlines come back, such as AF, LX, maybe IB..among other candidates.

Air France won't be coming back, as the main draw the first time around -- namely the connections offered by the Delta hub -- is now gone. SWISS (LX) never flew to Dallas/Fort Worth, but SABENA -- now gone -- did. They, too, are never coming back. Iberia has never flown to D/FW, and I won't say that they'll never make it there. But I don't think it will be for many, many years if it ever happens. If they can effectively leverage the Madrid hub, and develop a stronger market for flights to the U.S. (beyond their current schedule of Chicago, JFK and Miami alone) then D/FW may -- in the distant future -- present a viable opportunity to plug into one of the largest hubs on earth, that happens to be dominated by their partner American.

Personally, carriers that I think could easily make D/FW work:

. Air-India: A daily flight from Mumbai or Delhi to D/FW via any one of several European cities (Paris would probably work best) could easily work because of huge cultural and economic connections between the Metroplex and South Asia, and between India and generally the entire southern U.S.

. Cathay Pacific: A daily flight linking D/FW to Hong Kong is virtually a no-brainer. Connect one of the largest and best-positioned (most centrally located) hubs in the U.S., D/W, with one of the largest and best-positioned (most centrally located) hubs in Asia, Hong Kong. However, unfortunately, either American and/or Cathay will most likely link Chicago to Hong Kong long before D/FW.

. JAL: I think that JAL could probably make a few (3-4) flights per week NRT-DFW work to back up American on the route. Scheduled well, they could bolster the two airlines' joint schedule on the route, and improve connections between JAL arriving flights from Asia and onward connections to the U.S. I don't think it could support a 747-400, as it once did, but a 777 could make it, IMO.

. Qantas: This one is basically a no-brainer, and is more a matter of "when," not "if," as far as I'm concerned. Qantas itself has made clear on numerous occasions that this is a market they want to be in, and a daily Sydney-D/FW flight with a 747-400 could easily fill up with no problem based on just the monumental connecting opportunities alone, to say nothing of those trying to avoid LAX like the plague.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):
AA has so many connections to the western US, South America, Central America, and others.

You just answered your own question. The main reason why D/FW doesn't see a lot of foreign airlines is that American has such a huge hub and so largely dominates the market. American flies to many international cities, most of them in Mexico and Latin America, which is to be expected for a hub in Texas.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):
I've always wondered why BA only has one flight (777) and not multiple 744's!

D/FW is a great city. The Metroplex is a great place to live, work and do business. I grew up there, and I love the place. But, to be quite candid, the market is nowhere near big enough, American or no American, to support multiple 747s each day to London. The current 3 daily flights (2 American, 1 BA) is more than sufficient.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):
While there are 2 daily AA flights and 1 BA 777 flight to LGW, IAH gets more international service than DFW.

Houston is seen by many as far more of an "international" city, largely because of the oil business, which drives an enormous amount of demand from airlines all vying for the lucrative traffic linking Houston (the oil capital of the Earth, basically) with far off places like the Middle East, the North Sea, Rio, etc. D/FW does not benefit from this large amount of oil-driven traffic, and as such does not enjoy nearly as much international capacity from nearly as diverse a list of foreign carriers.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:21 pm

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 13):
In DFW isn't there AF going there...

AF left, no discussions of returning in the near-term

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 10):
Well more people than DFW it seems, since there is also lower crime, lower cost of living, etc etc.....

Actually, the DFW metroplex is about 500,000 people larger than Houston. That's basically an entire El Paso thrown in for good measure.

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 9):
The Dallas-Fort Worth area is the ninth largest metropolitan area in the US.

Nope, DFW is number 5. Behind:

(1) NYC - 18.7 million
(2) Los Angeles - 12.9 million
(3) Chicago - 9.4 million
(4) Philidelphia - 5.8 million
(5) DFW - 5.7 million

(7) Houston - 5.2 million

For the record, Houston is the seventh largest metro area, and Dallas alone is the 9th largest. Throw in Fort Worth, #20, and a host of massive suburbs, and DFW supports a massive population.

Quoting Lt-AWACS (Reply 5):
The DFW board is doing a great job with cargo airlines. EDIT-bad code

And it should be said that there are some big bucks behind that cargo..

While I wish that DFW had some more international diversity from an enthusiest standpoint, I wouldn't trade the airport for anything. In terms of sheer economic contribution, nothing in Texas and only a handful of national/global facilities come close to matching DFW.

If it were not for DFW, there would be no DFW metroplex around it. At least, not as we know it.
 
TWAtwaTWA
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airli

Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:25 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
. Qantas: This one is basically a no-brainer, and is more a matter of "when," not "if," as far as I'm concerned. Qantas itself has made clear on numerous occasions that this is a market they want to be in, and a daily Sydney-D/FW flight with a 747-400 could easily fill up with no problem based on just the monumental connecting opportunities alone, to say nothing of those trying to avoid LAX like the plague

As much as I agree that QF will link to DFW, I have to point out that the QF-AA connections at LAX are quite easy. Most of the connections occur in the small comfortable AA terminal T4, and the ones that do not are just in the next terminal that is literally a small stroll away. I think that the DFW airport is much more difficult for connections; DFW was built for ease of local passengers arriving and departing. It is so spread out that connections are not that easy.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
. Cathay Pacific: A daily flight linking D/FW to Hong Kong is virtually a no-brainer. Connect one of the largest and best-positioned (most centrally located) hubs in the U.S., D/W, with one of the largest and best-positioned (most centrally located) hubs in Asia, Hong Kong. However, unfortunately, either American and/or Cathay will most likely link Chicago to Hong Kong long before D/FW

Right now Cathay has flights into LAX that interface the AA network. I agree that Chicago, for the reasons that I pointed out in reply #9 is much more likely to have Cathay flights for local traffic as well as to link to AA's network.
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Lt-AWACS
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:26 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
Actually, the DFW metroplex is about 500,000 people larger than Houston. That's basically an entire El Paso thrown in for good measure

No, talking about international pax traffic referenced in the post above not census MSAs. (though Houston itself has a higher growth rate)

I am aware of the MSAs. I did population data work for that state as an undergrad many moons ago.

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jetdeltamsy
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:28 pm

i think it is because LAX/SFO, ORD and NYC are closer to more of the US population.
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scintx
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:29 pm

Now that I have a forum to speak my opinion. I have told many of my friends that terminal D was 20 years to late. I do not fly international, work for an airline or any other connection. It has always appeared to me IAH was far ahead of DFW on international carriers. If you look over the last 25 years DFW has landed several international airlines. My belief has been the lack of an international terminal has been a problem. Now that we have terminal D and lets face it this is another AA terminal with a few available gates. Just my .02 cents.
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TWAtwaTWA
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:35 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 16):
Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 9):
The Dallas-Fort Worth area is the ninth largest metropolitan area in the US.

Nope, DFW is number 5. Behind:

(1) NYC - 18.7 million
(2) Los Angeles - 12.9 million
(3) Chicago - 9.4 million
(4) Philidelphia - 5.8 million
(5) DFW - 5.7 million

(7) Houston - 5.2 million

For the record, Houston is the seventh largest metro area, and Dallas alone is the 9th largest. Throw in Fort Worth, #20, and a host of massive suburbs, and DFW supports a massive population.

Actually my data on the Dallas Fort Worth area ranking #9 is based on the US 2000 census data.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0884087.html
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Longhornmaniac
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:36 pm

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 17):
I think that the DFW airport is much more difficult for connections; DFW was built for ease of local passengers arriving and departing. It is so spread out that connections are not that easy.

While I agree with you that without a doubt, DFW was built with O&D passengers in mind, DFW is by no means difficult to transit in. Sure, it requires a little walking, but when does connecting not? Have you used the Skylink yet? It is the easiest, most efficient airport train I have come across. Multi-directional, too, which certainly makes things easy. DFW advertised it as being able to connect the two farthest gates in 8 minutes, which is far better than the TrAAin could have ever done.  Smile

Not to mention the views!

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AA777223
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:47 pm

The other day, as I was flying out of the beautiful, $1 billion international at my home airport, DFW, I noticed, not only the usual KE cargo 747 that I usually see, but I think I saw a Cathay 742... I can't remember. It was a 742, I remember for sure, I just can't remember whos it was. I also saw, much to my excitement an EVA cargo MD-11! I didn't know we got any other far eastern cargo service other than KE. I have seen the 744 come in on more than one occaision, but didn't know we received older models as well. I'm assuming these flights had a tech stop in Anchorage?
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nateDAL
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airli

Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:48 pm

Among other factors, http://houston.org/industryGuide/energy.asp

Houston is also a great manufacturing center and the Port of Houston leads the US in foreign tonnage. The primary industries in Houston just have a far greater international scope. What could be more global than the energy business? Throw in a more diverse population, thriving economy, etc...

Houston should lead Dallas for a long time.
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commavia
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:52 pm

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 17):
As much as I agree that QF will link to DFW, I have to point out that the QF-AA connections at LAX are quite easy. Most of the connections occur in the small comfortable AA terminal T4, and the ones that do not are just in the next terminal that is literally a small stroll away.

Maybe you think it's easy to transit, and I'll agree that it sometimes is, especially if you arrive and depart in the beautiful Terminal 4. However, security can sometimes be impossible.

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 17):
I think that the DFW airport is much more difficult for connections; DFW was built for ease of local passengers arriving and departing. It is so spread out that connections are not that easy.

Have you transited DFW since the new SkyLink opened? With SkyLink, moving around the airport and navigating the terminals is virtually effortless.

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 21):
Actually my data on the Dallas Fort Worth area ranking #9 is based on the US 2000 census data.

That was 2000. It's 2006.

In 2006, Dallas/Fort Worth is, indeed, the fifth largest metro area in the United States, behind New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Philadelphia. Miami is #6, and Houston #7, with Washington, Atlanta and Detroit rounding out the top ten.

Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_metropolitan_area
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:53 pm

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 21):
Actually my data on the Dallas Fort Worth area ranking #9 is based on the US 2000 census data.

And 2006 was six years ago and your source shows a rate of 29% population growth over the last decade. Things haven't exactly slowed down either.

If you consider the U.S. Census Bureura estimates for 2005, you will see that DFW has grown by an additional 500,000 people.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 19):
I have told many of my friends that terminal D was 20 years to late. I do not fly international, work for an airline or any other connection

It wasn't so much Terminal D. You don't need modern architecture and artistic concourses to attract international customers.

What would have helped was Skyrail system versus the AirTran people-mover.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:04 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 4):
Onto ORD, does anyone think that AA will start an ORD-TLV route to compete with the other middle eastern routes a la DL ATL-TLV, CO EWR-TLV, and UA IAD-KWI? How about a DFW-RUH, or ORD-CAI route?

AA can't fly to TLV due to some problems TWA had....it had to do with AA suspending the flight to TLV and not paying the "serverance packages"..

I would like to see AA fly to either CAI or some other Middle East city such as DXB....UA is going to fly IAD-KWI soon....

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 17):
As much as I agree that QF will link to DFW, I have to point out that the QF-AA connections at LAX are quite easy. Most of the connections occur in the small comfortable AA terminal T4, and the ones that do not are just in the next terminal that is literally a small stroll away. I think that the DFW airport is much more difficult for connections; DFW was built for ease of local passengers arriving and departing. It is so spread out that connections are not that easy.

Depending on where one wants to go in NYC, flying SYD-DFW-LGA (or EWR) might be the better option.

AA only has 2x/daily LAX-EWR flights and obviously no LAX-LGA flights, where as AA has 8x/daily DFW-EWR and 15 DFW-LGA flights.. spin 

add to the extensive South American routes AA has out of DFW and it makes sense for QF to add flights to DFW...
"Up the Irons!"
 
BHMNONREV
Posts: 1209
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 9:17 am

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:19 pm

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 17):
I have to point out that the QF-AA connections at LAX are quite easy. Most of the connections occur in the small comfortable AA terminal T4, and the ones that do not are just in the next terminal that is literally a small stroll away. I think that the DFW airport is much more difficult for connections; DFW was built for ease of local passengers arriving and departing. It is so spread out that connections are not that easy.

Unfortunately LAX has only a small fraction of the connections that DFW does, and while I will admit that at one time DFW was a connecting nightmare, this has changed dramatically with the introduction of the Skylink. You can reach anywhere in the entire terminal complex in 10 min or less...
 
TWAtwaTWA
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon May 15, 2006 5:18 pm

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airli

Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:44 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):
There are so many One World Connection there via AA. What's going on? I know that DFW Airport Authority was hoping for more international airlines due to the event of the new international terminal. So where are our airlines?



Quoting Commavia (Reply 25):

Have you transited DFW since the new SkyLink opened? With SkyLink, moving around the airport and navigating the terminals is virtually effortless.



Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 26):
If you consider the U.S. Census Bureura estimates for 2005, you will see that DFW has grown by an additional 500,000 people.

Everyone's points are well taken, and it's true that there are many reasons for international flights to come to Dallas.

The summary I posted (post 9), outlines the various reasons why DFW has not attracted more international flights in the past and the present.

In the post September 11th era, there has been a sluggish rebound in the industry, but now with the points that others above have brought out regarding the benefits to international carriers to fly to DFW; the most salient benefit is the link to AA's domestic network for other oneworld carriers.

We all agree that its just a matter of time till Qantas initiates flights to DFW. The newspaper, "The Australian" reports that DFW is on Qantas' radar for future links.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...ory/0,20867,19256889-23349,00.html

Other oneworld carriers are surely considering the same, but at the current moment, fuel costs and other limitations may be hindering many airlines' growth. And again, there are other US cities that my be more important for business and tourism.
We're your kind of airline. Uh, I mean, We *were* your kind of airline.
 
ualcsr
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 12:53 pm

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:48 pm

You can define the population of a city by the number of people living within an actual governmental unit, or by a combination of close governmental units thereby creating an "MSA" (Metropolitan Statistical Area). In terms of O/D passenger travel, the latter is probably more realistic given that people from close, neighboring communities may travel to an adjoining community to use an airport facility (e.g., if you live in Santa Monica, it's reasonable to think that you might use LAX). Here's a list of the 10 largest MSAs as defined by the U.S. Department of Management and Budget as of June 6, 2003 and based on the 2000 census (the three areas listed are comprised of sub-areas which form part of the each individual area---e.g., Newark, Union City, West New York, etc. as part of Northern New Jersey):

1. New York-Northern New Jersey-Long Island 18,323,002
(including Nassau-Suffolk, Edison, White Plains, etc.)

2. Los Angeles-Long Beach-Santa Ana 12,365,627
(including Glendale, Anaheim, Irvine, etc.)

(Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario is considered a separate MSA and ranked 13th with 3,254,821)

3. Chicago-Naperville-Joliet 9,098,316
(including Gary, Lake County, Kenosha County)

4. Philadephia-Camden-Wilmington 5,687,147

5. Dallas-Ft. Worth-Arlington 5,161,544
(including Plano, Irving, etc.)

6. Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-West Palm Beach 5,007,564
(including Miami Beach, Hialeah, Boca Raton, etc.)

7. Washington-Arlington-Alexandria 4,796,183
(including Bethesda, Gaithersburg, Frederick)

8. Houston-Baytown-Sugar Land 4,715,407

9. Detroit-Warren-Livonia 4,452,557
(including Dearborn, Farmington Hills, Troy, etc.)

10. Boston-Cambridge-Quincy 4,391,344
(including Newton, Framingham, Essex County, etc.)
 
ArtieFufkin
Posts: 671
Joined: Wed May 17, 2006 2:26 pm

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:34 pm

It's a simple matter of geography. The DFW Metroplex on the East or West Coast would attract massive amounts of International flights. Being in the center of the Country it's not ideal as a connector hub as it misses half the Country depending on which direction you go. AA can supply the local demand. Houston does a little better because the Energy industry is a global concern. But what makes it a bad Intl gateway makes it a good domestic hub from a geographic standpoint.
 
wave882
Posts: 23
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 4:23 pm

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airli

Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:40 pm

I recall Thai serving DFW when I was there in the '88-89 or mid-90's period, can't remember which. Think the routing was through LAX. So, DFW not only lost Air France and Sabena, but also Thai. Those Thai colors seemed quite exotic amidst all the American and Delta planes, great to see.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 4895
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:54 pm

Air NZ flew to DFW is the late 1980's for a while routing was something like AKL-PPT-DFW-LGW-FRA.
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airli

Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:58 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 4):
While MIA probably beats DFW in this area, I think DFW is still deserving of an IB flight from MAD since AA has none, and there are many Central and Southern America routes.

AA tried Dallas-Madrid, didn't work well at all. Every city south of Mexico that AA flies to from Dallas is served by Iberia from Madrid, except for the resort airport of Guanacaste Liberia.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 4):


Onto ORD, does anyone think that AA will start an ORD-TLV route to compete with the other middle eastern routes a la DL ATL-TLV, CO EWR-TLV, and UA IAD-KWI? How about a DFW-RUH, or ORD-CAI route?

AA can't go to Tel Aviv for legal reasons and a harsh ending with the TLV route. They basiclly owe ex-TWA employees in Israel a lot of money. Besides, AA frequent fliers can use their miles on El Al's New York, Miami, Chicago, and LA flights to Tel Aviv.

Quoting YULYMX (Reply 13):
Most of international goes to JFK, EWR, CVG, IAD, BOS, ATL, MIA, DTW, PHL, MCO, (Atlantic) SEA, MSP, LAX, SFO, DEN, PDX, HNL, (Pacific)

Where on earth did you pull CVG, MCO, SEA, MSP, DEN, and PDX from? While they have more international service than most airports, they aren't major international gateways. In fact, they are all smaller international gateways than Houston and Dallas.

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 21):

Actually my data on the Dallas Fort Worth area ranking #9 is based on the US 2000 census data.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0884087.html

It is 2006, not 2000.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 27):
add to the extensive South American routes AA

Extensive? The frequency of AA's total flights between Dallas and South America (four) is less than the number of daily flights AA flies between Miami and Venezuela.
a.
 
dolphinflyer
Posts: 187
Joined: Sun May 08, 2005 9:57 pm

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:50 pm

Most carriers are afraid of the Big Bad Wolf (i.e. AA). I agree with a couple other posts that a lot of international carriers want to include Texas in their network, but usually view it as an "either/or" situation between DFW and IAH. Obviously, the oneworld synergies at DFW could stand to be leveraged to a greater degree. QF is a no-brainer, but I've often wondered why they insist on holding out for nonstop SYD-DFW service (pending a/c performance/range), rather than going ahead and starting SYD-AKL-DFW using 744 a/c. I think that a CX DFW-HKG flight makes sense, given the incredible connections at both ends (even though the local market might be small-ish), but I agree that we'll probably see a CX ORD-HKG flight before DFW.

In honesty, KE's DFW-ICN flight should be shifted to IAH, due to much greater Skyteam alliance connectivity. JAL should have been able to make DFW-NRT work, until AA successfully drove them out of town (AA has always been so kind to their alliance partners!  Wink )

I think that eventually, AF could return to DFW, although they have now lost most of their former DL feed beyond. It amazes me that KL has not started DFW. They (and partner NW) link nearly every other major city in the US nonstop with AMS.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26467
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:05 pm

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):
I know this is an ongoing question, but doesn't DFW deserve the service as One World's LARGEST hub, and the 2nd or 3rd most busiest airport in the US??

Actually, DFW is number 4 behind ATL, ORD and LAX.

Quoting UAL747 (Reply 4):
Onto ORD, does anyone think that AA will start an ORD-TLV

AA will likely start LAX-THR before ORD-TLV

Quoting Reins485 (Reply 11):
I do not think you will see AA metal flying to the middle east any time soon. I think the threat to them would be greater than any other airline due to the fact that their name is American Airlines. Just my thought.

That is very short sighted

Quoting Commavia (Reply 25):
In 2006, Dallas/Fort Worth is, indeed, the fifth largest metro area in the United States, behind New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Philadelphia. Miami is #6, and Houston #7, with Washington, Atlanta and Detroit rounding out the top ten.

Wow, I just love how bad Wiki is with some things. First, I really don't know how San Jose/Santa Clara/Gilroy/Palo Alto/etc. are not included in with QSF. Including them would launch QSF to at least 5th. Further, precluding Ventura, San Bernadino and Riverside counties from the QLA statistics is similarly idiotic.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24557
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:11 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 36):

Wow, I just love how bad Wiki is with some things. First, I really don't know how San Jose/Santa Clara/Gilroy/Palo Alto/etc. are not included in with QSF. Including them would launch QSF to at least 5th. Further, precluding Ventura, San Bernadino and Riverside counties from the QLA statistics is similarly idiotic.

I agree, but the US Census officially seperated Ontario from LA and San Jose from SF/Oakland in 2003. They came as a huge surprised, because at the same time they very logically combined Miami with Palm Beach, while disbanding Baltimore and DC.
a.
 
pnqiad
Posts: 375
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 5:05 am

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:17 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 15):
Air-India: A daily flight from Mumbai or Delhi to D/FW via any one of several European cities (Paris would probably work best) could easily work because of huge cultural and economic connections between the Metroplex and South Asia, and between India and generally the entire southern U.S.

AI would probably start IAH before DFW since that is a bigger market. Also, IAD might be higher on AI list than DFW given the size of DC metro area and the expat. population.
 
cornish
Posts: 7651
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 8:05 pm

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:31 pm

Quoting PNQIAD (Reply 38):
AI would probably start IAH before DFW since that is a bigger market. Also, IAD might be higher on AI list than DFW given the size of DC metro area and the expat. population.

both IAD and IAH are much higher on the AI list than DFW - both are being looked at seriously - possibly as one joint service.

Quoting UAL747 (Thread starter):
AA has so many connections to the western US, South America, Central America, and others.

Well clearly for European AA partner carriers, MIA offers a much better option in this respect, thanks to a much bigger rangeof connections and also an excellent local O&D market for MIA, something DFW lacks from a European perspective.

However, also remember that these days the idea of connecting through the US is regarded by most foreigners as something to be avoided. One of the reasons IB downgraded their MIA mini-hub. If people can fly direct to Latin america or caribbean or via a European hub like MAD they will. If MIA is losin gout because of this, then that makes DFW a non-starter in the international (non-US to non-US) connection stakes.
Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
 
texan
Posts: 4059
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 2:23 am

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:02 pm

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 9):
The Dallas-Fort Worth area is the ninth largest metropolitan area in the US.



Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 21):
Actually my data on the Dallas Fort Worth area ranking #9 is based on the US 2000 census data.

Because I feel like repeating what other people have said, Dallas is the 6th largest area if the SFO/OAK/SJC area is counted as one. The DFW area had 6,054,467 people at last count. Source

Quoting TWAtwaTWA (Reply 9):
International business and large scale corporate business within a city generates international travel demand. Inc.com does not even rank Dallas in the top 25 places to do business.

But if you look at the number of international businesses in the DFW metroplex, we rank in the top 6 in the nation, especially in pharma and tech industries.

Quoting PNQIAD (Reply 38):
AI would probably start IAH before DFW since that is a bigger market.

They were looking at DFW for the business connections, not the amount of former Indians living in the area. There are a large number of Dallas companies who have opened up large branches in India. Those executives need to travel and bring in more money than ocassional visitors.

Texan
"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
 
texdravid
Posts: 1397
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 3:21 pm

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:17 pm

Wow, it's interesting how this topic comes up every so often. This topic is one of the main reasons I joined A.net a few years ago with the heading "Disappointed in DFW".

Inevitably, the topic goes hand in hand with "Why IAH has more international airlines". The other contributors have all discussed this ad nauseam. That is, AA is a corporate monster, DFW has less O&D, etc. All of those reasons are valid.

Another reason that few people realize is the poor reputation that Texas has with a majority of the world's citizens, especially Europeans. Europeans, when they think vacation destinations, think NYC, Chicago, Miami, LA and San Francisco.
They absolutely do not think of Texas, DFW, or IAH.

Having just been on a worldwide trip to include Europe and Southeast Asia, my perusal of local and international newspapers and tv reports backs up my contention. Texans are viewed as backward, Christian fundamentalists, and close-minded, obese, and rural hicks. Having a Texan as controversial internationally as GWB doesn't help matters. He is known as the "Toxic Texan" in many European quarters.

I feel that Europeans interest in Texas peaked in the early 80's with shows like Dallas; now there is only hatred and anger. Add that up with the general lack of tourist sites in and around Dallas and Houston, you are left with only the business crowd.

Houston has always lead Dallas with regards to international business, and that is the sole reason that IAH has KLM and AF. AA is more dominant at DFW than CO is at IAH, and that is why BA has more flights into IAH (overall the connectivity to LGW is about the same).

DFW does have a slightly better connection to Asia, with double daily NRT and a flight to KIX, as well as Korean to Seoul. IAH has South America down pat. Somehow DFW has ZRH?!!

So, thus, IAH does better to Europe and South America, and DFW does better to Japan/Korea. Thow in China Airlines and Pakistan Air, IAH is the winner but not by much. IAH is in the lead when it comes to future flights as well, with AI more likely coming to IAH than DFW.

I grew up in the DFW area, and currently live near IAH. I wish things were different and DFW/IAH would have multi-colored tails like ORD or LAX, but that's the ugly truth. Foreigners come here for business mostly, and not for vacation. We may like it here and think this is a great place to live and work (which it is, much better than NY or Chicago or LA), but the world doesn't.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
incitatus
Posts: 2700
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 1:49 am

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:30 pm

Atlanta is a better comparison to Dallas than Houston is. Houston's longhaul days go back to PanAm and there is far more oil-related business located around Houston to draw international travel.
Stop pop up ads
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:46 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 34):
Extensive? The frequency of AA's total flights between Dallas and South America (four) is less than the number of daily flights AA flies between Miami and Venezuela.

my bad..I was thinking of the extensive route out of MIA... crazy ...
"Up the Irons!"
 
102IAHexpress
Posts: 898
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 6:33 am

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:01 am

The posts above sum up the situation pretty well. And IMO DFW biggest obstacle seems to be AA. Kind of interesting though; for all the bending over backwards the Metroplex does in support of AA and its business practices, AA rewards the area by announcing most of their new international routs will go to ORD instead.

Perhaps a smaller obstacle may be this whole notion of a Metroplex itself. With so many distinct municipalities with distinct agendas, it’s difficult to differentiate who speaks for the area as whole. I mean when DFW sends out an envoy to meet with the people at Qantas, who do they send? Is it the mayor of Dallas or the mayor of Ft. Worth or the mayor of Arlington or the mayor of Irving, or perhaps they send all of them? Who knows?
 
commavia
Posts: 9744
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting 102IAHexpress (Reply 44):
And IMO DFW biggest obstacle seems to be AA. Kind of interesting though; for all the bending over backwards the Metroplex does in support of AA and its business practices, AA rewards the area by announcing most of their new international routs will go to ORD instead.

It would be unfortunate, however, to conclude that the Metroplex basically gets nothing out of AA but high fares and no new flights. The Metroplex has benefited tremendously from having AA based in the area for the least 27 years. Many companies have moved to the Metroplex with a major, centrally located hub by one of the world's largest airlines as a major motivating factor. In addition, AMR is the region's largest single employer, and brings billions, upon billions, upon billions, into the area each year.
 
travelin man
Posts: 3198
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:23 am

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 41):
We may like it here and think this is a great place to live and work (which it is, much better than NY or Chicago or LA), but the world doesn't.

I guess that's where the saying "different strokes for different folks" came from. NY, Chicago, and LA are all much better places to live an work in my opinion, but that's why people can go where they want!
 
texshark1990
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 1:58 am

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:04 am

Perhaps this may shed light on why IAH has more International Airlines. Plus Houston is #2 in the US for number of Fortune 500 HQ, second only to NYC.

Air service to Houston in hot-pursuit
Carriers of this emerging international gateway discuss the perks and benefits of having a Houston connection
Houston Airport System
June 23, 2006

What gives asked a Dallas Morning News aviation reporter in a recent edition of his publication, referring to the fact that last year Houston’s largest airport registered a 9 percent increase in international passenger traffic and surpassed other major airports around the globe – including hot Asian airports such as Singapore’s – as the fourth-fastest growing airport in the world.

This article came out only days after the International Air Transport Association announced that world passenger traffic for the first four months of this year had increased by 6.9 percent over the previous year.

In Houston, this announcement came as no big surprise.

Air traffic statistics indicate that for the same first four months of this year passenger traffic in Houston had increased well above the international average, by 8 percent year-over-year – this despite the fact that overall capacity in Houston had only increased by 1.7 percent between 2005 and 2006.

So what gives?

Airport officials might have you believe that recent additions such as a newly-constructed Federal Inspection Services facility at Bush Intercontinental Airport (IAH) – which is the largest of its kind in the world – or other recent improvements included in a $3.1 billion



© Houston Airport System



capital improvement project that was just completed at IAH are the root proponents of this growth.

But carriers at the airport system’s two commercial airports point out a different reason: the city’s international appeal, its global economic importance and its strong origin and destination market.

Continental Airlines is based out of Houston and is the primary carrier at IAH. The airline offers the nation’s most number of weekly nonstop flights and destinations into Mexico from that airport. According to Sarah Anthony, spokesperson for Continental, choosing Houston as a hub location was not a matter of coincidence.

“Bush Intercontinental Airport is strategically positioned as an international gateway. Today, it is a key connection point for travel to Mexico, Central and South America, Europe and the Pacific,” she said.

With already 870 international flights a week from IAH, Continental is determined to continue expanding their network. Anthony points out that this summer the carrier will increase its daily departures from Houston by 9.2 percent over the previous year – a large part of these increases will be in international routes.

Long-established air service providers are not the only ones looking to expand their operations in Houston, however. Internationally-based carriers like Air India, Virgin Nigeria, Qatar Airways, Emirates Airline and Korean Air have all expressed interest in adding Houston to their air service networks.

Air France southern region district manager, Samy Gachem says better connectivity is the main reason for having a Houston connection. This month, the airline increased its scheduled service to Paris from IAH for the second time since starting service at the airport to 14 flights a week, up from 10 previous weekly operations.

“It gives us the ability to service Houston’s oil industry with our African and Middle Eastern routes and gives us the ability to provide the city with connections to more than 2,300 daily flights,” he said.

The city has an all-inclusive, centrally-located air, rail, sea and land transportation network that makes access into Latin America and the rest of the world more effective and efficient.

“Long-range aircraft now make it possible for carriers to fly longer distances and this allows them to better connect with their key markets,” said Richard M. Vacar, director of the Houston Airport System. “In Houston, this is especially true for Asian and Latin American carriers, who by force of economic ties are intricately connected and who benefit from more direct air service through Houston.”

M. Nadeem Akhtar is a national account manager for Lufthansa, the world’s largest German Airline, and notes that Houston’s central location is essential to the growth of international air travel.

“The opportunities are tremendous,” he said.

Just this month, Lufthansa announced its plans to enter a code share agreement with Africa-based Qatar Airways to bring that airline into the US market – more specifically, into Houston.

“Launching our own flights to the US has been on our books for sometime and we are pleased to announce that this will become reality during the course of (this) year,” said Akbar Al Baker, CEO of Qatar Airways to the African press after the announcement of the new code share agreement. “America is a key market and no airline that truly wants to be a global operator can afford to ignore the US."

For carriers already in the fourth-largest city in the US and those considering it as an option it seems Houston is the “key market that no airline that truly wants to be a global operator can afford to ignore.”

Copyright © 2006 - Houston Airport System
 
jcavinato
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:14 am

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:18 am

Houston has more industries that are internationally oriented than Dallas/Ft. Worth. Mostly oil/gas/chemical. Plus, those industries are ones that fill business and first seats quite readily.

I have traveled in and out of both IAH and DFW to Europe several times in both business and first. What I notice with IAH is that my seat mates are on full or corporately priced tickets. A lot of experience I've noticed on AA out of DFW is that those mates are on upgrades or were upgraded at the gate.

Simple demand by companies with international reach and their amount of travel needs.
 
naritaflyer
Posts: 259
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2006 12:17 am

RE: Why Does DFW Not Have Many International Airlines?

Sat Jul 01, 2006 2:27 am

Dallas is a domestic city that's why. Not much international traffic to and from Dallas exists or else airlines would be clamouring to serve it.