okelleynyc
Posts: 205
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Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:42 am

Fair use excerpt:

Quote:
Passengers boarding planes in France are now paying a new tax on their tickets to help the world's poor, after the measure came into effect on the weekend.

The tax, championed by President Jacques Chirac and backed by UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, adds a surcharge of between one and 40 euros (1.25 and 50 dollars) depending on the destination and class of seat.

Money raised is to go to an international fund to buy treatments for AIDS, tuberculosis and malaria.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/02/060702104216.1lh2ue8o.html

I'm not a fan of coerced charity and choose to send my $$$ to organizations where I have some knowledge of their ability to affect change. I'm curious why the airline industry was singled out as a suitable means for collecting these funds?

Interested to hear everyone elses comments....
Just give me my Vario, my Ozone Mojo and a gorgeous day of soaring.
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:46 am

I don't have an issue with the Gvt using funds to help the poor. I just don't think one industry should be singled out to fund the programs. The tax should be much broader based.
 
CRGsFuture
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:52 am

I'm assuming this is more punishment to French Airline travellers. First the picture tacking and now the tax. The only question I have is why also not on the SNCF TGV's? Its upsetting where one industry is singled out. Especially when this industry is in France, the most travelled to nation in the world. I'm guessing that's why it is in the airline industry, because of the amount of pax that travel and O&D there.
Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
 
Bofredrik
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:56 am

Have a higher general income tax instead in France. That is my proposal.
 
SmokinL1011
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:13 am

I wonder how long before stories of corruption and waste appear...

BUT, having said that, if a program like this can truly be managed properly and most of the aid will get to the individuals that need it I have no problem paying a little extra, and I'm someone who flies to France regularly. Though I do wonder about the reasoning of placing the tax squarely on airline tickets.

The bigger picture of imbalance between us and the 3rd world is so wrought with corruption (ours and theirs) and the idea of self-sufficiency in most of these countries is so far off I applaud the French government's attempt to help the most helpless - those that are critically ill.
 
ArtieFufkin
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:21 am

Quoting SmokinL1011 (Reply 4):
far off I applaud the French government's attempt to help the most helpless - those that are critically ill.

An American with a good heart and looking out for his fellow man. Rare as hens teeth these days.
 
AirSpare
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:24 am

What logic! "Sir, you are flying AF to Luanda today, so we are taxing you to help pay for the people there suffering from x numbers of ills".

First, most of these counrties are poor becasue they are corrupt. Nigeria an Angola should be jewels of Africa. They are dumps. So you want me to pay for the guys driving around there in the big Mercs and Hummers?

What I would like to see, is a change donation jar before security where I could unload my lose change before going through the metal detectors.
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
SmokinL1011
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:44 am

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 6):
First, most of these counrties are poor becasue they are corrupt. Nigeria an Angola should be jewels of Africa.

There's plenty of corruption to go around. Our governments (meaning us in the 1st world) have regularly done plenty to help further crookedness and depravity in the 3rd world when it advances our own self interests.

The question of poverty in most of Africa is a far more complicated matter than simply saying "they" are corrupt. Nigeria? Study Nigeria in depth, see what hand your government has had in their mess and then talk about "them".

Ahh, this is why I love A.net. It takes my mind off the troubles of the world.  

[Edited 2006-07-02 18:51:40]
 
SmokinL1011
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 1):
I don't have an issue with the Gvt using funds to help the poor.

Are you really American, or just an impostor?  Wink

Quoting ArtieFufkin (Reply 5):
An American with a good heart and looking out for his fellow man. Rare as hens teeth these days.

Yes, it's hard to believe, but I'm definately NOT a devoted, starry-eyed listener of the daily deluge by Limbaugh and Coulter, still waiting faithfully for the discovery of those WMD's in Iraq or happy to enshrine discrimination in the constitution.
 
Glom
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:26 am

The lesson? Everyone fly to France to help the poor. More flights! More flights!
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:38 am

I also see no issue with helping out those in need, but I have an issue with the airline industry being singled out for taxes. This is already one of the most taxed industries in the world.

At least the revenues from this tax will ostensibly go to a cause that is actually worthwhile. Airlines here in the U.S. are still being choked by unfunded security mandates from our oil dictator in the White House and the security fees he enacted in order to fund his TSA goons.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
707lvr
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:38 am

Number of posts before Bush: the Great Satan, Evil Dictator and Destroyer of Worlds, is brought to a topic on FRENCH TAXES: 10.
 
commavia
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:41 am

Well, I guess when global passengers begin to change their buying and travel patterns to route themselves over competing hubs in Frankfurt, Amsterdam and London because of this stupid tax, we'll know who to blame, Msr. Chirac!
 
dallasnewark
Posts: 391
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:49 am

Airlines should not be punished by this stupidity.

Africa should blame itself for what is happening there, no amount of money would help them.
If the African nations took responsibility for their own actions, the level of poverty would not be as bad as it is today.

Don't breed 10 children if you can't feed them.
Don't destroy the hand that feeds you(Zimbabwe and R.Mugabe)

The list can go on and on.

Unless African nations become more responsible, no amount of money would help them.

Chirac is using this as a cheap publicity stunt for himself
B732/3/4/5/6/7/8/9, B742/4, B752/3,B762/3/4, B772/3, A306, A318/9/20/21, A332/3, A343/6, MD80/83/88, L1011, TU104/134, F
 
Avatordon
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:53 am

This was the brain child of Chirac. Personally, I like the "Change for Good" program that various carriers participate in. ANy coins that will have no value are collected and sent to the UN, for Unicef, I beleive. At least its voluntary.
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:56 am

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 11):
Number of posts before Bush: the Great Satan, Evil Dictator and Destroyer of Worlds, is brought to a topic on FRENCH TAXES: 10.

I made no inappropriate attack on Bush. With respect to the airline industry, the simple FACT is his security mandates--either unfunded or disgracefully underfunded--have cost the airlines enormous amounts of money. Inconsistent, ridiculous security policies as well as the largest increase in the federal bureaucracy since Roosevelt have negatively impacted the aviation industry since 2001 and continue to affect travelers today.

But since you don't like to hear that, you can go bury your head back in the sand now.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
AirSpare
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:10 am

Quoting SmokinL1011 (Reply 7):
Study Nigeria in depth, see what hand your government has had in their mess and then talk about "them".

Study? Try working there for a year, from Lagos to PH to Aba to Onitsha and in between. Are you going to blame British colonialism? That was then, this is now. Ever have a shotgun shoved in your face? Go to Nigeria, you'll love what they've done with the country.

Angola? I'm not an expert there, spent 8 months in country. Oil, diamonds, minerals, politicians with nice cars and no roads. (The Gates Foundation does more in Angola then France.)

If these governments actually CARED about their citizens, I would gladly donate. So there Jack, if you want to help these corrupt nations, send them a check from your account.
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
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breiz
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:16 am

Quoting Avatordon (Reply 14):
This was the brain child of Chirac.

Actually, it is system to raise money for medicines to the third world which was advocated by other people including Bill Clinton.
 
commavia
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:39 am

Quoting Breiz (Reply 17):
Actually, it is system to raise money for medicines to the third world which was advocated by other people including Bill Clinton.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't remember Bill Clinton ever advocating a tax on airline tickets to help the world's poor while he was President, probably because he well knew then (and surely knows now) that something this stupid would have been roundly dismissed by the vast majority of U.S. taxpayers, and nearly the entire Senate and House, if ever proposed seriously.
 
Avatordon
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:31 am

Here are some of the links - just passing on what I had read somewhere - beleive it was Financial Times.

http://www.adetocqueville.com/200606291447.k5telcw05990.htm

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2006-03-01-airline-tax_x.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4758786.stm

http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/06/global/asian_tribune.htm

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/02/27/opinion/edsebban.php

I think the most interesting of the above hyper-links is the editorial from the International Herald Tribune. Incidentally, I didn't come across anything here that included Bill Clinton, but this was a quick check, that's all.
 
RC135U
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:48 am

From 1970 to 2000 Africa received $400 billion in aid according to this study which says money is not the problem in Africa, but a host of other changes are needed in the political and business climate.
www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=7447
 
dfwmzuri
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:05 am

I like how Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are helping the poor, and I think they will accomplish much more than a government program or politician.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poo

Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:11 am

They singled out the industry because everyone that flies is considered of, at the least, medium-income level. If you can afford a plane ticket, you can afford giving money to the poor. Simple reasoning.

Unfair, IMHO. I'll donate what I can to who I want, not some government that who knows what little percentage of that money will atually reach the needy (most will prob. be either wasted or corrupted).

Cheers

[Edited 2006-07-03 04:18:04]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:18 am

How 'bout obliterating the egregious agricultural subsidies, f#ckers???? That would help the poor infinitely more than another handout that hurts an industry. This is absolutely ridiculous and anyone behind this should be beaten.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
AirSpare
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:54 am

You really have to laugh to read that Brasil has signed up. They could use the money to hire some policemen to actually enforce the law in the favelas in Rio. maybe while they're there, they could actually build a school.

Mexico is also a signatory-Great job! You have an economy that doesn't work in Chiapas and you want to buy medicine for corrupt mineral rich dictatorships.

Way to go Nicaragua! You just made an international headline, must be the first time since we caught your military on camera loading cocaine on a flight bound for the USA!

When Haiti gets on board, this program is really going to rock!

Let's start taxing ice cream. It is rich in cholesterol which is a leading cause of heart disease.

Jack-you must be awfully proud. There is life after being the president of France, the HBO Comedy Hour comes to mind.
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
ltbewr
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:26 pm

The well documented problems of many countries of Africa and elsewhere in the 3rd world is something that the '1st world' needs to deal with, but is a special tax on airfares by one country the best answer? What I see here is a 'luxury tax' and may discourage in a minor way tourism and business flying, adding costs for all. How the money will be distributed is also a serious question, as others have noted.
There could be many things that don't cost much money such as the USA's Peace Corps, allowing the making of AIDS drugs with no need to pay patent rights, buying products from 3rd world countries, not putting dumb ties to monies such as 'Abstence first and only' sexual ed programs to fight AIDS.
 
FireFly
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:46 pm

Yes, saw this a few hours ago on DrudgeReport...

It is utter crap! If the Republic of France wants to spend a portion of their treasury on any cause, the politicians may do so, and it is up to the voters to accept that use of their labor, or reject it.

World-wide,those who travel by air are becoming an easy mark for those who wish to extort funds for their pet projects. For only the "right" to land as a passenger, travelers are paying for rail and bus service for cities, conference or "world trade" buildings, or now in the case of France, to subsidise an "international fund" that will provide for the world's poor...a decade from now, assuming there is a journalist willing to cover this story, it will turn out that a majority of the money raised went to supply some warlord with the funds to purchase more guns, weapons, or tanks.

F*** France - My wild guess is that only commercial passengers pay for this new tax - anyone want to bet me that "diplomatic" flights into and out of the country are not paying this tax? It is so easy to give others' money away...Let Chiroc put his money where his mouth is - why not a 500F donation (out of his salary) each time his *FAF1* enters or leaves the country?

**sorry if getting a little carried away, but it is Independence Weekend here in the states, after all**
"Bury me at sea, boys; where no murdered ghosts can haunt me" MacGowan
 
Ttailsteve
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:52 pm

How about a tax to repay the United States for all of the aide we have given them. Also, maybe a tax on every ticket paid directly to Airbus?
 
CRGsFuture
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:55 pm

Guys I was just thinking, doesn't CDG get the most arrivals and departures from/to Africa than any other airport in the world. Could that be the cause?
Flying you to your destination; your girlfriend to her dreams.
 
Ttailsteve
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:58 pm

Actually in all seriousness I much prefer what British Airlines does where they collect loose change and "left over" money in any currancy and give that to carity. Its totally voluntary and my hypothesis would be less liely to be used corrupty as its managed by a private company not the government.
 
fixman88
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:04 pm

Quoting SmokinL1011 (Reply 8):

Yes, it's hard to believe, but I'm definately NOT a devoted, starry-eyed listener of the daily deluge by Limbaugh and Coulter, still waiting faithfully for the discovery of those WMD's in Iraq or happy to enshrine discrimination in the constitution.

Well, at least you're not biased...  Yeah sure
Did you know you can fly in Second Life?
 
commavia
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 1:21 pm

Chirac still doesn't get it.

The last thing Africa needs is more money. Throwing money at a problem won't make it go away! The problem is that half of the continent of Africa is run by despotic dictators who horde all the foreign aid money and food donations for themselves and their political allies, and none of it trickles down to the people who need it most.

Despite what Angelina Jolie, Bono, or Chirac says, what Africa needs is not money, it is investment. Africa needs to be plugged into the 21st century global economic pipeline. It is a continent desperately in need of innovation, democracy, and justice.

Africa needs global corporations to come in and spend billions in infrastructure, training, providing jobs, etc. Then it needs its own domestic entrepreneurs to start new businesses, provide new jobs, and create new economic opportunity and social mobility.

Africa needs the world's richest nations (namely the U.S., Japan and European countries like France) to give up their pathetic, obsolete subsidies for their farmers and take down the protectionist trade barriers that make it impossible for agricultural and commercial interests in poor countries like Africa to compete in the new global marketplace.

Africa needs the rest of the world (yes, that means the French) to stop propping up murderous tyrannical lunatics who keep their countries mired in civil war and sectarian strife for decades while young people -- these nations' futures -- are killed.

Look at what has happened in India and China in the last 20 years. Both have gone from Third World to some of the most dynamic global players on the planet because they attracted investment through sound economic and social policy, a movement away from socialist protectionism and towards the free market and the global flow of dollars and ideas, and the education of their young people to compete effectively in the new world.

If it happened in India, it can happen in Malawi. If it happened in China, it can happen in Sierra Leone.

So rather than making sure that if Africa is going to stay poor, the rest of the world -- apparently starting with France itself -- should join it, perhaps Msr. Chirac should consider doing something that might actually help the poorest and most helpless among us in the human race by ending stupid trade barriers, stopping the indefensible French meddling in African politics, and encouraging security and stability to spur investment in the region.
 
707lvr
Posts: 457
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:25 pm

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 15):
made no inappropriate attack on Bush. With respect to the airline industry, the simple FACT is his security mandates--either unfunded or disgracefully underfunded--have cost the airlines enormous amounts of money. Inconsistent, ridiculous security policies as well as the largest increase in the federal bureaucracy since Roosevelt have negatively impacted the aviation industry since 2001 and continue to affect travelers today.

But since you don't like to hear that, you can go bury your head back in the sand now.

And replies before bring-anti-bush-into-every-subject poster gets sniffily indignant - 15.
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:40 pm

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 32):
bring-anti-bush-into-every-subject poster

number of posts before ignorant, blind flag-waver mistakes a Bush voter and registered republican for a bring-anti-bush-into-every-subject poster: 32.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
orlando666
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:41 pm

how much does France calculate will be collected annually = ? Euro

how much has France written-off in African debt = ? Euro

do the maths and then see  Smile
 
Glom
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:08 pm

Just remember: Make poverty history! Take more flights!
 
commavia
Posts: 9810
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:25 pm

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 33):
ignorant, blind flag-waver mistakes a Bush voter

Just a quick question, as I recognize this is in aviation thread: do you classify ever Bush voter as an "ignorant, blind flag-waver?"

[Edited 2006-07-03 15:26:10]
 
georgiaame
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poo

Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:08 pm

"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

The fundamental creed of socialism, a discredited economic system, still subscribed to by a large number of Europeans. The role of government is to retrieve ill gotten gains from the filthy rich, and redistribute them to the great masses of unwashed poor. (Usually in exchange for votes; we do it here in the States too, although the numbers keep dropping with each election.) It's just that Chirac has brought it to a new level, and hell, if you can afford a plane ticket, you are by definition filthy rich. If you won't part with your funds and give them willingly to the President's favorite charity, he will see to it that his government does, by fiat if need be. Or more crudely, at the point of a gun and the threat of prison for tax evasion if you don't "willingly" comply. After all, elitist always make better judgements than the ignoramus in the street. Just look at how well Airbus has been ruled when elitists are in charge...

So, now that we have cleared these waters, I want to see a show of hands: who will be flying out of France, vs who will be flying out of Germany or the UK if given free choice? And who will willingly and meekly surrender to this tax?

Communism vs Capitalism. May the better system win. (Uhm, hate to say it, but we already know the answer to that one). Oh by the way, Happy 4th of July. In the United States of America, we call this holiday "Independence Day" For a reason.
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:21 pm

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 37):
"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"

The problem here is that France has Africa bent over a barrel in one respect, and then tries to pretend like they're the good samaritan by sending a pittance to Africa that they get from blackmailing one industry. Maybe Chirac gets some sick satisfaction from screwing Africa over on their main export and then "helping" them with a patronizing donation. Commen dit-on "hypocrite" en français?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Joni
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Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:01 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 31):
The last thing Africa needs is more money. Throwing money at a problem won't make it go away!

Money can be useful, however.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 31):
Despite what Angelina Jolie, Bono, or Chirac says, what Africa needs is not money, it is investment.

I didn't wade through the links on this thread, but my understanding is that targeting foreign aid so that it can bypass the local "unitary executives" is approaching a fine art.

The reason airline traffic is targeted is that it's seen as a "vice" due to the obvious environmental reasons.
 
commavia
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Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 39):
Money can be useful, however.

Generally, I don't think so. In fact, I would venture to say that in places that are so far behind the rest of the world in globalization, infrastructure, technology, and investment, like much of Africa is today, handing out free money is quite counter-productive, as it fosters dependancy and never addresses the long-term problem of forcing true, tangible change.

It's a bit of cliche, but so poignantly prescient: the old Chinese proverb, "give a man a fish, he eats for a day; teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime."

Quoting Joni (Reply 39):
but my understanding is that targeting foreign aid so that it can bypass the local "unitary executives" is approaching a fine art.

They said the same thing 30 years ago, and 20 years ago, and 10 years ago, and hundreds of billions of dollars ago, that if we could just cut through the layers of tyrannical bureaucracy, the money could actually get to the people. The problem, however, is that it never happens. Africa today is poorer than it was 30 years ago.
 
longhaulheavy
Posts: 376
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:52 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 40):
handing out free money is quite counter-productive, as it fosters dependancy and never addresses the long-term problem of forcing true, tangible change

That's typically how it works. Take food aid as an example.

Few analysts, researchers, economists, etc. will denounce the value of food aid during an acute crisis, such as a rapidly developing famine or a civil war that destroys the year's food stocks. However, food aid in general typically does more harm than good.

Put yourself in the shoes of an African farmer who's trying to produce something. He/she might have a microloan, some land on which they're paying rent, and they've put a lot of time and effort into their crop. Now the UN/US/EU shows up with a big plane full of rice or wheat. What happens to the farmer and his or her attempt at doing something economically beneficial? They're squashed by free food.

As for a good that's not produced domestically, such as AIDS medications, the rationale for aid is more sound. However, it's always tough to tell a Western government that throwing money at the problem doesn't necessarily solve it. For years and years, aid money handed out in the third world has gone to buy military equipment for the next civil war or bulletproof Mercedes. This is a problem that may never be solved.

Frankly, I think there is one unstated reason that the French are doing this. It's France's declining influence in Africa, especially in Algeria, in favor of America.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...ename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
 
antiuser
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 16):
Are you going to blame British colonialism? That was then, this is now.

Right, because the history of the continent has no bearing on its current state.

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 13):
Africa should blame itself for what is happening there, no amount of money would help them.

Of course they should blame themselves. Only a lunatic would think that hundreds of years of exploratory colonialism and resource-raping from the rich countries would have anything to do with how Africa is now.

I'm not saying Europe and the US hold all the blame for how Africa is now, but to think we've had no influence and gained nothing from it is just foolish.
Azzurri Campioni del Mondo!
 
Joni
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:39 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 40):

Generally, I don't think so. In fact, I would venture to say that in places that are so far behind the rest of the world in globalization, infrastructure, technology, and investment, like much of Africa is today, handing out free money is quite counter-productive, as it fosters dependancy and never addresses the long-term problem of forcing true, tangible change.

Do you think that development aid is delivered in trucks carrying cash to remote African villages?

Quoting Commavia (Reply 40):
They said the same thing 30 years ago, and 20 years ago, and 10 years ago, and hundreds of billions of dollars ago, that if we could just cut through the layers of tyrannical bureaucracy, the money could actually get to the people. The problem, however, is that it never happens.



I don't quite agree with this either: 30 years ago they said "if only we could bypass the red tape", but 10 years ago and today the red tape is being bypassed to a significant degree.

To bring the thread back on-topic, consider Boeing. The profits are largely distributed to stockholders as dividends and share buybacks, but a regrettable fraction winds up in executive jets and stock options for top management.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 40):
Africa today is poorer than it was 30 years ago.

Do you have a source? I bet there are at least parts of Africa that are significantly better off now, and largely so because of development aid received over the last 30 years.
 
commavia
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:58 pm

Quoting Joni (Reply 43):
Do you think that development aid is delivered in trucks carrying cash to remote African villages?

No -- quite the opposite. The trucks carrying cash back up right into the garage of the corrupt tyrannical leaders of these countries and unloads cash right into their houses, so they can distribute it to their friends and political allies and use it as a weapon against their enemies and anyone who opposes them. European (and the world's nations) are completely complicit in this activity, and know its happening, but say that "it can't be stopped," when it clearly can. Cut off the money to these psychopaths and let them continue to fund warlords without any foreign funds. The ordinary African won't be harmed much, as they are largely not getting anything from this deal as it is anyway. There are exceptions, of course, but saying that there are bright spots in Africa is not very inspiring in the context of the chaos that is that entire continent.

Quoting Joni (Reply 43):
today the red tape is being bypassed to a significant degree.

Then why is Africa still lightyears behind the rest of the world, mired in poverty, disease, famine, starvation, and war?

Quoting Joni (Reply 43):
Do you have a source?

Nearly every sub-Saharan African nation is poorer now than when they became independent during the 1960s and ’70s. Since that time, food production has fallen by roughly 20 percent. Since 1975, per capita GDP has fallen at a rate of half of 1 percent annually.

http://www.examiner.com/a-162175~Walter_Williams__Foreign_aid_to_Africa_is_a_cruel_and_evil_hoax.html

Quoting Joni (Reply 43):
I bet there are at least parts of Africa that are significantly better off now, and largely so because of development aid received over the last 30 years.

Right and wrong. There are, indeed, a few bright spots in Africa that have turned the corner and installed stable democracies, strong civic institutions, and empowered their people with economic freedom -- Botswana and, to a large extent, South Africa come to mind. It has absolutely nothing to do with aid, however, since these countries got no more aid on a relative basis than the dozens of other African countries still mired in poverty and instability. The difference in these places is that they stopped depending on foreign aid and instead decided to take control themselves, establish common-sense laws that encourage entrepreneurship and investment, economic growth, and created strong, stable democratic governments and civic institutions like un-corrupt courts and police forces that would enforce laws and create an environment safe and secure for domestic and foreign investment.
 
halls120
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:04 pm

Quoting Dallasnewark (Reply 13):
Don't breed 10 children if you can't feed them.
Don't destroy the hand that feeds you(Zimbabwe and R.Mugabe)

The list can go on and on.

Unless African nations become more responsible, no amount of money would help them.

Couldn't agree more.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 15):
I made no inappropriate attack on Bush.

It isn't that you made an "inappropriate attack" on Bush. What does Bush have to do with a thread discussing a unilateral decision by the French government to levy a tax on airline passengers that will be used for non-airline related purposes?

If the French government decided to impose a tax on airlines for increased security, the comparison you made would have been valid.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18):
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't remember Bill Clinton ever advocating a tax on airline tickets to help the world's poor while he was President, probably because he well knew then (and surely knows now) that something this stupid would have been roundly dismissed by the vast majority of U.S. taxpayers, and nearly the entire Senate and House, if ever proposed seriously.

 checkmark 

Quoting Ttailsteve (Reply 29):
Actually in all seriousness I much prefer what British Airlines does where they collect loose change and "left over" money in any currancy and give that to carity. Its totally voluntary and my hypothesis would be less liely to be used corrupty as its managed by a private company not the government.

United used to do this on their international flights, and I always chipped in. I think this is an admirable step for airlines to take.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:25 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 31):
Chirac still doesn't get it.

Never did, never will.

This is pure demagogy designed to make him feel somewhat good before he at last retires.

And consistent with 12 years of very poor performance, be it internally or on the international stage.

Besides, by doing this he only comforts dictators and corrupt regimes in poor countries that prove unable to face the AIDS and other medical crises.

In other words: loads of horsedung.
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Halibut
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:39 pm

To those of you who say or believe the US doesn't give enough to the poor around the world : Get the effing Facts !

 grumpy 

http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication_details&id=3712

U.S. Private International Giving to Developing World Exceeds $62 Billion
Hudson study shows American generosity to poor nations over 3 1/2 times U.S. Government aid
June 29, 2005
by Carol Adelman

Hudson Institute released new private international giving numbers today in a white paper, "America's Total Economic Engagement with the Developing World," by Dr. Carol Adelman, Mr. Jeremiah Norris and Ms. Jeanne Weicher. Updating their research on American generosity, the authors found at least $62.1 billion in U.S. private donations to developing countries in 2003, the last year numbers are available. This philanthropy, from U.S. foundations, corporations, non-profits and volunteerism, universities and colleges, religious organizations and individuals is over three and one-half times U.S. Official Development Assistance (ODA) of $16.3 billion.

While the United States gives the greatest absolute amount of ODA to developing countries, it is routinely criticized for being "stingy" because U.S. Government aid ranks last among donor nations as a percent of Gross National Income (GNI). U.S. official aid is .15 percent of GNI compared to Norway, the highest ranked donor, at .92 percent.

What such criticism ignores, however, is that the measure, developed by the Paris-based Organization for Economic Development and Cooperation (OECD), fails to take into account the primary way in which Americans help others abroad: through the private sector. "ODA is an outdated and inaccurate way of measuring a country's generosity," says Dr. Adelman, Director of the Center for Science in Public Policy, at the Hudson Institute. "Americans prefer to give people to people assistance versus Europeans who give primarily government to government aid."

Nor does the OECD fully measure count U.S. military contributions to peacekeeping and security, U.S. private industry investments that generate the bulk of research and development for better food and medicines, or preferential trade agreements that support imports from developing countries. The measure also excludes the $1.5 billion in foreign aid that the U.S. provides to Israel, Central and Eastern Europe, and Russia since these countries exceed the OECD poverty criterion.

Most importantly, the number does not include $51 billion of U.S. private capital flows to developing countries, consisting of foreign direct investment and net capital markets. This private investment creates jobs and economic growth, the surest way to reducing poverty



Halibut
6 million Jews were slaughtered-Do you see Jews flying planes into buildings in Germany to kill 1000s of innocent, NO !
 
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:46 pm

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=730652005

US donations to Africa outstrip Europe by 15 to 1


Frasier Nelson

PRIVATE American citizens donated almost 15 times more to the developing world than their European counterparts, research reveals this weekend ahead of the G8 summit. Private US donors also handed over far more aid than the federal government in Washington, revealing that America is much more generous to Africa and poor countries than is claimed by the Make Poverty History and Live 8 campaigns.

Church collections, philanthropists and company-giving amounted to $22bn a year, according to a study by the Hudson Institute think-tank, easily more than the $16.3bn in overseas development sent by the US government. American churches, synagogues and mosques alone gave $7.5bn in 2003 - a figure which exceeds the government totals for France ($7.2bn) and Britain ($6.3bn) - according to numbers from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development which deal a blow to those who claim moral superiority over the US on aid.

Carole Adelman, the author of the Hudson Institute report, has discovered that a further $6.2bn a year is donated by independent US organisations, $2.7bn by US companies and $2.3bn by US universities and colleges, mainly through scholarships, to reach an overall private US donations total of $22bn.


Adelman said this transforms the picture on aid to the developing world, showing how America's stronger economic growth and lower taxation is giving indirect aid to the Third World which dwarfs the government's donations. The benchmark for state aid is the United Nations goal of devoting 0.7% of Gross National Income (GNI) in government aid to developing countries. Ireland has pledged to do so by 2007; Belgium and Finland by 2010; France by 2012 and the UK by 2013.

Halibut
6 million Jews were slaughtered-Do you see Jews flying planes into buildings in Germany to kill 1000s of innocent, NO !
 
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RE: Airline Pax In France Face New Tax To Help Poor

Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:48 pm

Quote form an earlier thread:

"Frankly, I think there is one unstated reason that the French are doing this. It's France's declining influence in Africa, especially in Algeria, in favor of America"

If that is the intent, it is even more stupid. It would be way more efficient to help Countries develop their markets, become competitors on the world stage, than subsidizing unable regimes.

[Edited 2006-07-05 15:53:56]
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