Joni
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EADS Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:31 pm

Sounds like a good starting point for a new A350/A370 program to me, even if they do have to pay BAe E1.55B net. Airbus also plans to deliver 430 planes this year, which will provide strong cashflow.

http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1811156,00.html

Also:

Mr Gallois, a socialist, took over a loss-making, debt-ridden SNCF a decade ago and turned in net earnings of €1.3bn last year.
 
astuteman
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EADS Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Mon Jul 03, 2006 4:35 pm

Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
Sounds like a good starting point for a new A350/A370 program to me, even if they do have to pay BAe E1.55B net. Airbus also plans to deliver 430 planes this year, which will provide strong cashflow.

Just made a question on the other thread - EADS had E3.5Bn reserved for the BAE stake valuation.
If the sale proceeds, and that reserve is liquidated, does that mean EADS will have net cash of E6.6Bn? (E5.9Bn + (E3.5Bn-E2.75Bn))

Regards
 
Joni
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of �5.9B

Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:52 pm

Hmm that could probably be checked somewhere, but I simply don't have the time right now. Anyhow if they did have almost 7Bn they could develop an A370 using their existing cash  Wink
 
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sebolino
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of �5.9B

Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:26 pm

According to the EADS site, they have in 2005 5,5 Billions Euros.

http://www.eads.net/web/lang/en/1024...F00000000400004/6/03/31000036.html
 
NAV20
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 1):
Just made a question on the other thread - EADS had E3.5Bn reserved for the BAE stake valuation.

Not quite, Astuteman. As of last year (2005) they included E3.5B. under liabilities in their balance sheet to cover the risk of the put option being exercised (it was not so shown in previous years). But it was a balance sheet item only, not a cash reserve.
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Mon Jul 03, 2006 10:35 pm

Well I sure hope this is true. IMHO, asking the European governments for "launch aid" would simply add fuel to the fire of the pending WTO case.
I would like to see a negotiated settlement with regard to that issue.
My gut still says that Airbus will stick to the current A350 design, which is probably the best course of action for them. It's a decent aircraft and certainly will sell to Airbus' traditional customers. With all that's on their plate, they need to focus on the A380. Redirecting resources to an all new A370 may simply be too aggressive for them, at least at this point.
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Joni
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of �5.9B

Mon Jul 03, 2006 11:03 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 5):
Well I sure hope this is true. IMHO, asking the European governments for "launch aid" would simply add fuel to the fire of the pending WTO case.
I would like to see a negotiated settlement with regard to that issue.

Airbus will almost certainly both apply for, and receive, launch aid for the new program, whatever it's name will be. A negotiated settlement would be beneficial to all, but it's not likely soon in any case, since the US and Japan aren't willing to reduce their own subsidies, mutatis mutandis.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 5):
My gut still says that Airbus will stick to the current A350 design, which is probably the best course of action for them.

You don't think they'd do better with an improved plane?

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 5):
With all that's on their plate, they need to focus on the A380

The A380 issues are tied mainly to finalizing the certification program and those wiring issues we've all been hearing about. Neither of these tie up any significant portion of Airbus' engineering resources so they're free to work on follow-up projects, as I suspect they've already been doing for months.

AFAIK the main issue has been, if they should have stuck with the A350 to free more resources a few years down the line to work on a narrowbody follow-up, which in any case is very important to them.
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Tue Jul 04, 2006 5:30 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 6):
Airbus will almost certainly both apply for, and receive, launch aid for the new program, whatever it's name will be. A negotiated settlement would be beneficial to all, but it's not likely soon in any case, since the US and Japan aren't willing to reduce their own subsidies, mutatis mutandis

Joni, for once can you take off your Airbus cheerleader cap and agree with me that BOTH companies need to make and borrow money the old fashioned way.... Earn it! I'm no where as convinced as you are that "Launch Aid" is a good thing. I believe a protracted WTO battle will, in the end, hurt the EU side more. And do damage to the industry, both sides of the pond, for the long term. I'd prefer that both sides negotiate terms that both can live comfortably with.

Quoting Joni (Reply 6):
You don't think they'd do better with an improved plane?

Because I don't think they have the money (Their own, i.e. In the bank.) nor resources to divert from other projects. And if you read the comments made by senior management, they all but admitted it. There is nothing wrong with the A350 as is. If I recall correctly wasn't you saying that it was superior to the 787 in every way? Many of us disagreed with you then. Are you now saying that it needs a complete redesign? That's funny... Before it was the most advanced twin engine in the skies, now it needs to be completely replaced? Which one is it?

The new CEOs have made it quite clear that resolving the A380 issues are Airbus' number 1 priority. If I were a stockholder, I would be grateful to hear that after the constant bad news from these last few weeks.

Quoting Joni (Reply 6):
The A380 issues are tied mainly to finalizing the certification program and those wiring issues we've all been hearing about. Neither of these tie up any significant portion of Airbus' engineering resources so they're free to work on follow-up projects, as I suspect they've already been doing for months.

Joni, they've reduced the delivery schedules from 25(?) to 9 per year.

You really need to take off those rose colored glasses.

[Edited 2006-07-03 22:35:08]
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Joni
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of �5.9B

Tue Jul 04, 2006 2:59 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 7):
Joni, they've reduced the delivery schedules from 25(?) to 9 per year.

Yes, for 2007 as they need to clear out the wiring on the planes on the factory floor now. What's your point? Senior management is to personally supervise the wiring, and the r&d guys will all be reassigned to wiring � la Khmer Rouge?

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 7):
Joni, for once can you take off your Airbus cheerleader cap and agree with me that BOTH companies need to make and borrow money the old fashioned way...

As Airbus does. But you've hit the nail on it's head there: both companies. If you consider that it's "wearing an Airbus cheerleader hat" to suggest that not only Airbus, but also Boeing, should borrow money the old-fashioned way then you're an Airbus cheerleader yourself.

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 7):
There is nothing wrong with the A350 as is. If I recall correctly wasn't you saying that it was superior to the 787 in every way?

No, I don't recall that.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:18 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 1):

Just made a question on the other thread - EADS had E3.5Bn reserved for the BAE stake valuation.
If the sale proceeds, and that reserve is liquidated, does that mean EADS will have net cash of E6.6Bn? (E5.9Bn + (E3.5Bn-E2.75Bn))

No. As has been pointed out in other threads, the BAe stake is a unfunded liability.

Quoting Joni (Reply 6):

Airbus will almost certainly both apply for, and receive, launch aid for the new program, whatever it's name will be. A negotiated settlement would be beneficial to all, but it's not likely soon in any case, since the US and Japan aren't willing to reduce their own subsidies, mutatis mutandis.

Probably not. The WTO does not operate under diplomatic rules. It has two sets of questions
1) Is the launch aide + logistical aide that Airbus is provided legal.
2) Is the aide the Japanese government is giving it's companies legal.

It is quite possible that 1 will be accepted, while 2 will be rejected given that the WTO allows for subsidies in developing business segments.

But in any case, it's not a quid pro quo situation, simply because it is no longer diplomats negotiating (as much as the Europeans would like it to be). The WTO may invalidate both the launch aide and the Japanese assistance. However the japanese assistance was made to Japanese companies, not Boeing, and Airbus is on the hook for launch aide.

The EU has effective used the WTO to shut down a variety of sketchy US trade policies. I have no angst whatsoever about Boeing using it to get rid of artificial advantages the EU is so desperate to give Airbus.
 
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of �5.9B

Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:26 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 9):
Probably not. The WTO does not operate under diplomatic rules. It has two sets of questions
1) Is the launch aide + logistical aide that Airbus is provided legal.
2) Is the aide the Japanese government is giving it's companies legal.

You might want to study up on item 2 on the WTO website. I found their site to be a useful resource with ready access to key documents. The EU's complaint against alleged commercial aircraft subsidies in the US encompasses a vastly greater range of items than what you mention.
 
astuteman
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Tue Jul 04, 2006 3:32 pm

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 7):
I'm no where as convinced as you are that "Launch Aid" is a good thing.

It helps to understand what "Launch Aid" actually means - it's nowhere near as sinister as it is convenient to make out for political purposes.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 9):
No. As has been pointed out in other threads, the BAe stake is a unfunded liability.

2 bites for the price of one  biggrin . Apologies guys, I knew that......

Regards
 
Aviator27
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:37 pm

Airbus gets launch aid directly. Boeing gets subsidies and tax breaks. Boeing and Airbus suppliers get research/development assistance. Its all the same.

By the way, do you think EADS have some spare change they are willing to part with?
 
707lvr
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:56 pm

As we go on making equivalent the breaks which Airbus and Boeing supposedly get from government, it's important to remember the extent to which the success of EADS/Airbus is a vital part of universal European industrial policy, whereas in the U.S., Boeing has a good number of important and powerful enemies in and out of government.
 
Joni
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of �5.9B

Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:39 pm

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 10):
You might want to study up on item 2 on the WTO website. I found their site to be a useful resource with ready access to key documents.

Where on their site can you find any other texts, than the negotiated agreements?
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Tue Jul 04, 2006 7:56 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 9):
It is quite possible that 1 will be accepted, while 2 will be rejected given that the WTO allows for subsidies in developing business segments.

Launch Aid prior to the 1992 agreement do not come under the WTO subsidies agreement because it was made prior to the rules being laid out in 1994, and all subsidies after 1992 comes under a mutually agreed framework. Its highly doubtful that the WTO will rule against the EU on the basis of the launch aid claims as laid down by the US.
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting Joni (Reply 8):
As Airbus does. But you've hit the nail on it's head there: both companies. If you consider that it's "wearing an Airbus cheerleader hat" to suggest that not only Airbus, but also Boeing, should borrow money the old-fashioned way then you're an Airbus cheerleader yourself.

As a Boeing stockholder, my biases speak for themselves.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 11):
It helps to understand what "Launch Aid" actually means - it's nowhere near as sinister as it is convenient to make out for political purposes.

Well that's the line given by the EU side and stands at the heart of the matter. For the U.S. side, it's seen as a non-competitive advantage for EADS/Airbus, and is taken very seriously. My own view is that the U.S. has a very strong case. Recent events at EADS reinforce those sentiments.

Quoting 707lvr (Reply 13):
Boeing has a good number of important and powerful enemies in and out of government.

Excellent point, and is in no way owned by any government, while the French government owns 15% of EADS. And as had been shown by recent events, the French have no problem trying to influence policy at EADS.
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BoomBoom
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of �5.9B

Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:42 am

Airbus received launch aid for the A380.

The 787 was Boeing's response to the A380, so it should be eligible for launch aid too.

If Boeing has to give up the 787 lunch aid, Airbus should refund the A380 launch aid.

Airbus made a mistake with the A380, and now they are looking for another government hand out to build the plane they should have built in the first place.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 17):
The 787 was Boeing's response to the A380, so it should be eligible for launch aid too.

It was eligible for launch aid under the 1992 agreement. The arguement is that the aid received for the 787 program is not consistent with that allowed under the 1992 agreement.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 17):
If Boeing has to give up the 787 lunch aid, Airbus should refund the A380 launch aid.

Well, that line of reasoning is just infantile.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 17):
Airbus made a mistake with the A380, and now they are looking for another government hand out to build the plane they should have built in the first place.

Theres no evidence at all that EADS or Airbus have requested or desire more money for the A380 program.
 
11Bravo
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:08 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 18):
Theres no evidence at all that EADS or Airbus have requested or desire more money for the A380 program.

I think he means Airbus should have built the A350/A370 in the first place (rather than the A380). He's talking about additional launch aid for that, not the WhaleJet.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 19):
I think he means Airbus should have built the A350/A370 in the first place (rather than the A380). He's talking about additional launch aid for that, not the WhaleJet.

In that case, fair enough.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting WingedMigrator (Reply 10):

You might want to study up on item 2 on the WTO website. I found their site to be a useful resource with ready access to key documents. The EU's complaint against alleged commercial aircraft subsidies in the US encompasses a vastly greater range of items than what you mention.

I actually have read just about every article, including several Foreign Policy Magazine breakdowns that examined the issue in significant depth.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 15):
Launch Aid prior to the 1992 agreement do not come under the WTO subsidies agreement because it was made prior to the rules being laid out in 1994, and all subsidies after 1992 comes under a mutually agreed framework. Its highly doubtful that the WTO will rule against the EU on the basis of the launch aid claims as laid down by the US.

Actually it really isn't. The US has been slapped a number of times by the WTO for the exact same stunts Airbus is pulling here. Either the WTO fairly applies rules across the board or they don't. If they don't why does the WTO exist?

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 18):

Well, that line of reasoning is just infantile.

It's no different then the Airbus cheerleaders insiting that despite both EADS and Boeing getting logistical support, supliers getting preferential government aid etc, Boeing should have to give that up (where Airbus doesn't) so Airbus doesn't take market distorting aid from the EU governments.

Bottom line, there should be a level playing field between the two corporations. If EU prefers to baby their companies to make them more competitve at the cost of US jobs, US tariffs on incoming products should reflect that.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 21):
Actually it really isn't. The US has been slapped a number of times by the WTO for the exact same stunts Airbus is pulling here. Either the WTO fairly applies rules across the board or they don't. If they don't why does the WTO exist?

WTO Subsidies and Counterveiling Measures acts only apply to subsidies being actively disembursed at or after the time the international agreements on the WTO law came into force (1995ish). Since the disembursement of aid to Airbus for the A300,A310,A320 and A330/340 projects had already finished by the time the WTO agreements came into force, it is highly unlikely the WTO will rule on them.

Agreements already valid under a framework between two countries are rarely overturned under WTO rules, so this includes aid given under the 1992 agreement.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 22):

WTO Subsidies and Counterveiling Measures acts only apply to subsidies being actively disembursed at or after the time the international agreements on the WTO law came into force (1995ish). Since the disembursement of aid to Airbus for the A300,A310,A320 and A330/340 projects had already finished by the time the WTO agreements came into force, it is highly unlikely the WTO will rule on them.

Agreements already valid under a framework between two countries are rarely overturned under WTO rules, so this includes aid given under the 1992 agreement.

I would be shocked if they did. The A350/70 and the A320E are a different matter. Boeing could also make a case that the lack of a CPA which was explictly required by the bilaterial invalidates the A380 as well, but I doubt they will.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 23):
I would be shocked if they did. The A350/70 and the A320E are a different matter. Boeing could also make a case that the lack of a CPA which was explictly required by the bilaterial invalidates the A380 as well, but I doubt they will.

The 1992 agreement only requires the CPA to be disclosed on a nonproprietory basis, and then only on a case by case basis of a motivated request - its not required and its not mandatory.

The absence of a CPA for a project does not invalidate the agreement.

The A350 projects RLI request was made and granted one day before the 1992 agreement was voided, so technically its still covered.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 24):

The A350 projects RLI request was made and granted one day before the 1992 agreement was voided, so technically its still covered.

The plane has changed so much since then, that's for the WTO to determine.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 24):

The 1992 agreement only requires the CPA to be disclosed on a nonproprietory basis, and then only on a case by case basis of a motivated request - its not required and its not mandatory.

You're talking about disclosure. I am talking about existience in the first place, which is a requirement.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 25):
The plane has changed so much since then, that's for the WTO to determine.

The project is still the same, all planes develop during their life.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 25):
You're talking about disclosure. I am talking about existience in the first place, which is a requirement.

And where is there any evidence that Airbus didnt do a CPA for any of their projects? Just because one hasnt been disclosed doesnt mean one doesnt exist.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of �5.9B

Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 18):
Well, that line of reasoning is just infantile.

There you go again. Must you always resort to name calling?

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 18):
Theres no evidence at all that EADS or Airbus have requested or desire more money for the A380 program.

Sorry, I didn't make myself clear. Airbus says they will ask for aid for the A350/370. This is the plane they should have built instead of the A380. So they want aid for two planes, whereas Boeing is only building one.

In other words, Airbus wants the taxpayers to pay for their marketing blunder.
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CO738
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:08 am

If EADS has 5.9billion euro (i can't make the euro thingy) how about focusing on the A380 project and kicking it back into gear instead of chasing this A350/A370 A3something project. The Focus at hand should be the A380 and getting that back online before like in a thousand previous posts that some of these airlines are going to sue and will want compensation. IMHO scrape the A3whatever project focus on getting the whale back in the sky and stop wasting our times arguing over how much money they have cause instead they will be using that money to pay for court fees and compensattion for airlines.


P.S. this is the most thought i have ever put into this kinda of topic so give me some leverage on this one folks
If only you could install an air horn on a plane...
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of �5.9B

Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 27):
In other words, Airbus wants the taxpayers to pay for their marketing blunder.

These remarks about "the taxpayers" are simply ludicrous. It's not like any European taxpayer would have one additional cent in his pocket without the A380. And since the money is spent somehow anyway, it's still better to see it spent for a job machine rather than farm subsidies.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
RichardPrice
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of €5.9B

Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:16 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 27):
There you go again. Must you always resort to name calling?

Its not name calling, the comment made was infantile.
 
glacote
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RE: Eads Has Cash Reserves Of �5.9B

Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:39 pm

As this thread points to launch aids it seems wise to restate that:

1) Airbus "launch aids" are contidionnally repayable loans - not subsidies nor tax breaks. They do carry lower-although reasonable interests. Their main use is to "convince" private sector investors to lend money too by providing the program with a 33% protection against loss. Now if history is any guide then these will very probably be repaid (or the whole program is such a mistake that Airbus is in a hell lot of trouble).

2) In the specific case of the super-jumbo market where there is enough room for only one (monopoly) manufacturer due to the huge cost the launch aids are of considerable strategic advantage. I still fail to understand why this side of the story is not pushed by Boeing at the WTO. As long as they fail to do so my view is that their case is moot and they have much more to lose than Airbus - mainly because tax breaks, military technology transfers and subsidies are not repayable.

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