sampa737
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 2:20 am

Varig July 4, 2006

Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:19 pm

According to this morning's Folha (online) Varig has no money and won't make it til August. I don't think there is a lot of new news here but wonder if anyone has anything to date.

How long was it before Pan Am, Braniff, TWA and Eastern finally bled out?

I don't remember TransBrasil or VASP taking this long!
 
ualcsr
Posts: 348
Joined: Sat May 27, 2006 12:53 pm

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:43 pm

I am sorry for RG, I am sorry for RG employees, I am sorry for contractors who work with RG. However, if we lost Pan Am in the US, Brasil can lose RG. It seems that the Brasilian courts are extending RG's life with the hope that Brasil's historically great airline will somehow survive. But, if there's no money, limited flights, no service, no wages, nothing.........isn't it time to accept it and pull the plug? I really wish someone would pull a rabbit out of a hat and RG would somehow be able to make it, but at this point, it's time for everyone, and most of all, RG employees, to move on with their lives. I'm so sorry for RG.
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Tue Jul 04, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting Sampa737 (Thread starter):
According to this morning's Folha (online) Varig has no money and won't make it til August. I don't think there is a lot of new news here but wonder if anyone has anything to date.

True, Deloitte (Varig administrator) states that the company has no conditions to keep flying (in fact nowadays VarigLog every day made a new deposit to pay Infraero Airport Charges and to buy fuel).

Yesterday a group, with reliable Brazilian investors and Cinzel Partners from US announced that they will made the necessary steps to bid up to US$ 600 million for RG operations.

Varig keep flights to Frankfurt, New York/Miami combined, Buenos Aires, Caracas, Santiago, Lima/Santa Cruz de La Sierra combined and domestic destinations.

Even on shuttle service SDU-CGH Varig reduce the number of flights (in the past a flight every 30 minutes between 6h30 and 21h, nowadays a flight every 90 minutes) and JJ/G3 are very happy (for who dont know, the shuttle service keep one of the highest fares in Brazil, and for sure in the world, around US$ 180 + fares for a 228 miles flight).

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
DTWAGENT
Posts: 753
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:16 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:49 am

Sad day... Another great airline is dieing off....My clients like RG alot and no they will have to take either AR,AA,UA,DL. from the US. My heart goes out to all the employees of RG. Good Luck and my God be with you and your families...

Chuck
 
DannieFly
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2006 2:46 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:06 am

My question is why would VarigLog or Cinzel Partners, for that matter, pour money down a lawyer-, creditor-, legal minefield- filled drain?

Brazilian legal experts say that even though legal liabilities for the old VARIG are supposed to be off the table for the new owner (if we ever get one), nothing stops a whole slew of creditors(i.e., pension fund, Receita, INSS, BR Dis. etc.) from suing the new owners for past debts.

Why wouldn't a potential buyer wait until the company acknowledges the reality, or until the judge does the right thing and stop beating this proud, but still dead horse? At that point, there would be no doubt about legal liabilities--they would all belong to the liquidated company.

While VarigLog's efforts appear to be valiant, the goodwill of a somewhat disorganized, and not-so-forthcoming regulator seems hardly worth it.

Right now we all sit and watch as RG employees, creditors, competitors, and most of all Brazilian consumers suffer.
 
lijnden
Posts: 528
Joined: Wed Apr 02, 2003 1:34 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Wed Jul 05, 2006 2:35 am

I love Varig and have flown several times with them. The current economical situation of the past 10-15 years is ofcourse the problem. Other larger airliners from Brazil like VASP and TransBrasil have disappeared as well. Fuel prices (oil based) are not in line with the current currency and local supplies of sugarcane based fuels are only good for cars not planes.

Other problems were the lack of steady partners for many years in the alliance. (UAL had three+ years severe financial problems and BK, asian airliners had to deal with SARS).

It is sad to see an airline like Varig with such a rich history litteraly bleeding to a financial death.
Be kind to animals! Next trip: ORF-ORD-NRT-IAH-ORF
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:34 am

The sad reality of this situation is that, even though RG's problems have been building for years, the Brazilian government has kept RG with a lock on Brazilian int'l services. The lack of competition now is making it much harder to pull the plug on RG now. While TAM appears ready to dramatically expand its int'l operations, the Brazilian government and people will be similarly exposed if there is not a healthy competitor for TAM. Plus, consumers are the real beneficiaries if Brazil has not one but two strong competitors with international operations. A few 787s for Gol?

I don't see how any creditor will agree to continue to allow its assets to remain w/ a RG successor if they cannot recover at least some of the losses they have incurred under RG. People complain about US bankruptcy laws but no US airline has ever walked away from its liabilities and started over with fresh accounts. I don't know of any other major business anywhere in the world that has had a similar deal.
 
ghost77
Posts: 4458
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:50 am

Issue here Scolari played with a stupid defensive strategy.. having the most powerful offensive!

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
A few 787s for Gol?

Even if they order, they'll have slot delivery problems! They will have to wait!

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 6):
I don't know of any other major business anywhere in the world that has had a similar deal.

RG could be the first one! Remember that anything can happen @ our loved Latam and RG's never ending soap!

ghooost77 APM
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:59 am

yes, but RG's creditors are not exclusively Brazilian and aren't terribly interested in rewriting the rules of business just for RG's sake.
 
jetdeltamsy
Posts: 2688
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:15 pm

Quoting Sampa737 (Thread starter):
How long was it before Pan Am, Braniff, TWA and Eastern finally bled out?

None of those carriers "bled out". Pan Am, Braniff and Eastern all shut down with enough cash to effect an orderly liquidation. Braniff had in excess of $100 million in collectable receiveables due from other airlines. Eastern had $100 million on hand after refunding tickets for future travel.

TWA probably came the closest to collapse. I've heard that they had anywhere from 3 days to 2 weeks of enough cash to meet payroll and fuel bills before American took over their finances.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
chris7217
Crew
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Nov 20, 2002 7:51 pm

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:09 pm

Really a sad story about VARIG.

As far as I know VARIG belongs to Star Alliance and was even a founding member.

What is Star Alliance going to do now? Could they offer any help to VARIG?

Chris
 
drinkstrolley
Posts: 484
Joined: Tue May 10, 2005 10:50 pm

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:30 pm

Why doesn't the Brasillian Government intervene and give them a sub? It seems to happen with all the other flag carriers..........
 
bennett123
Posts: 7426
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:17 pm

WorldTraveler

The issue is not in a few years when the 787 is available.

The issue is now.

GOL will need to buy something used, otherwise the competition will soak up VARIG's market.
 
bennett123
Posts: 7426
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:31 pm

According to Airfleets, RG had 25 B737, 1 B757, 3 B767, 3 B777 and 4 MD11.

I appreciate that these numbers are fluid, but some/most of these aircraft are available. I also remember the problems that Finnair recently had with a RG MD11, but some of these aircraft would provide a short term capacity boost.
 
turbulence
Posts: 876
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 1999 1:33 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:33 pm

The problem in RG is that for too many years, too many chair people have used too much help money for increasing their own salaries. It is an enormous pity for the employees, but I sincerely think it is time to stop these abuses that were for the benefit of a few dozens of directives. I would agree only in further governement helps if the whole chairmanship was changed, or if somehow JJ was able to manage absorbing fleet and workers.

The old plan of fusioning them, TAM absorbing the debt, the new company keep the name VARIG and the chairmanship being that of VARIG, was an insult to Comandante Amorim, the whole range of TAM staff, and the brazilian contributors.

From suitable and reliable "insider" source, most of the planes have been returned or are to be to the lessors, and all of them have already had their next lease contracts written.

In parallel, and according to the same reliable insider source, JJ has already closed agreements for 33 A32Xs and 6 330s.

I just hope TAM and GOL can manage to employ the most of the VARIG workers affected by this situation.

Enjoy turbulences!!!
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:04 pm

According to Aerotransport.org (updated 02-Jul-2006), VARIG and its subsidiaries' active and grounded fleets are as follows:

Active

M11s: PP-VTI (World Cup c/s), VTK, VTP - All for UPS, 2006
772s: PP-VRI, VRJ
763s: PP-VTC, VTE (both EuroAtlantic)
733s: PP-VNZ, VON, VOY, VOZ, VPY, VQN, VTA + PT-SSQ (Rio Sul)
734s: PP-VTL, VTM, VTN
735s: PT-MNH (Nordeste)

VARIG: 17
Nordeste: 1
Rio Sul: 1

TOTAL: 19

Grounded

VARIG: 38 (8 x M11, 6 x 772, 2 x 763, 4 x 752, 15 x 733, 1 x 734, 2 x 738)
Nordeste: 5 (2 x 733, 3 x 735)
Rio Sul: 10 (3 x 733, 5 x 735, 2 x 73G)

TOTAL: 53

Are these figures correct, Lipe?

Saludos,

ZXV
How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
bennett123
Posts: 7426
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:20 pm

According to Airbus, the 20 A32X will be delivered between 207-2010 and 8 A350 from 2012.

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...eases_items/12_21_05_TAM_A350.html

However, TAM will need aircraft before then.
 
bennett123
Posts: 7426
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:22 pm

Sorry, I meant 2007-2010.
 
a3xx900
Posts: 392
Joined: Sun Jan 18, 2004 8:03 pm

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:25 pm

Does anybody have the current international active network of VARIG? What int. flights do they still operate today?
Why is 10 afraid of 7? Because 7 8 9.
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:46 am

Bennett,
I agree that Gol needs to jump into the market quickly but taking on a new fleet type and becoming an int’l carrier is a big step for Gol or any airline but esp. one that is trying to keep its costs down. It’s pretty easy to see what TAM will do but Gol is not as clear cut. They could abandon their low cost domestic approach and become an intercontinental carrier but with lower costs or they could stick to narrowbodies and become a dominant player in S. America. I can’t predict where they will go but while it looks appealing to jump into the intercontinental market now, it may make a lot more sense to gradually build that side of the business while reaping strong profits on the domestic and S. American routes.
 
jog
Posts: 262
Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:40 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:17 am

Quoting Turbulence (Reply 14):
In parallel, and according to the same reliable insider source, JJ has already closed agreements for 33 A32Xs and 6 330s.



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 16):
According to Airbus, the 20 A32X will be delivered between 207-2010 and 8 A350 from 2012.

http://www.airbus.com/en/presscentre...eases_items/12_21_05_TAM_A350.html

However, TAM will need aircraft before then.

It is already official that TAM will buy 15 A319, 16 A320, and 6 A332 in addition to the A32X and A350 they ordered last year. All new orders are scheduled to arrive until 2010. The first two new A332 will arrive 2007. Until September 2006 TAM will have all three A332 back that are currently leased to EY (used for new service to LHR and for switching JFK to daily night in both directions). For more details have a look at TAM Ordered More 37 Airbus (by Jrosa Jun 29 2006 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2006-07-05 18:20:12]
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Thu Jul 06, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting A3xx900 (Reply 18):
Does anybody have the current international active network of VARIG? What int. flights do they still operate today?

GRU-FRA-GRU, GIG-FRA-GIG, GIG-GRU-LHR-CPH, GRU-MIA-GIG, GIG-GRU-CCS-GRU-GIG, GIG-EZE-GIG, GRU-EZE-GRU, GRU-SCL-GRU, GIG-GRU-VVI-LIM-GRU-GIG. JFK and LAX not regular.

My best:

1) Loads on GIG and GRU flights yesterday
2) Aircraft in use
3) News:

a) PP-VRI has been grounded yesterday after RG2205 (MAO-BSB-GIG) and due to this RG8778 has been cancelled yesterday (and forced a big overbooking on GRU-FRA flight). It's confirmed for today. PP-VRJ seems to be grounded on saturday. Probably both has been requested by the lessor.
b) A new auction will take place on July 12 with a mininum bid of US$ 400 million
c) VarigLog paid again Fuel and Airport Usage charges for Varig yesterday.
d) VarigLog today announced they will start to op with 20 aircrafts but their desire is to hit a fleet of 80 planes (no comments on when!)
e) Air France (AF) says it's ready to fly more frequencies from both GRU and GIG.

GIG/SBGL

PUA0803 MVD 0700 CX-PUB PAXS: 170
VRG8936 LIM 0700 PP-VTL PAXS: 095
VRG8920 SCL 0700 OB8936 PAXS: ***
VRG8612 EZE 0730 PP-VOZ PAXS: 028
VRG2204 MAO 0845 PP-VRI PAXS: 115
VRG9990 GRU 0845 PP-VOJ PAXS: 030
VRG2044 GRU 0845 OB9990 PAXS: ***
VRG2342 FEN 0935 PP-VOY PAXS: 108
VRG2251 IGU 1110 PP-VTW PAXS: 109
VRG8942 CCS 1210 PP-VTN PAXS: 079
VRG2316 SSA 1525 PP-VTA PAXS: 075
VRG2250 MCP 1920 PP-VTW PAXS: 061
VRG2343 POA 2015 PP-VOY PAXS: 112
VRG9992 GRU 2030 PP-VTL PAXS: 061
PUA0802 MAD 2250 CX-PUB PAXS: 233

GRU/SBGR

VRG8947 GIG 0630 PP-VTN PAXS: 080
VRG8753 GIG 0640 PP-VRI PAXS: 070
PUA0231 MVD 0655 CX-PUD PAXS: 051
VRG8640 EZE 0730 PP-VTK PAXS: 091
VRG2118 POA 0935 PP-VNZ PAXS: 110
VRG8920 SCL 0935 PP-VTL PAXS: 068
VRG2346 PNZ 0945 PP-VPY PAXS: 106
VRG8936 LIM 0950 PP-VTM PAXS: 118
VRG8880 VVI 0950 OB8936 PAXS: ***
VRG2334 SSA 1020 PP-VTA PAXS: 068
VRG8810 MIA 1030 PP-VTE PAXS: 172
VRG2200 MAO 1100 PP-VOJ PAXS: 135
VRG2251 IGU 1250 PP-VTW PAXS: 081
PUA0223 MVD 1320 CX-BON PAXS: 030
VRG8942 CCS 1405 PP-VTN PAXS: 087
VRG5648 EZE 1500 PP-VOZ PAXS: 082
VRG8902 ASU 1500 OB5648 PAXS: ***
VRG2250 BEL 1745 PP-VTW PAXS: 095
VRG9991 GIG 1850 PP-VTL PAXS: 009
VRG2372 FOR 2115 PT-SSQ PAXS: 126
VRG8756 CPH 2130 PP-VOJ PAXS: 215
VRG8740 FRA 2155 PP-VTK PAXS: 284
VRG8630 EZE 2220 PP-VPY PAXS: 032
VRG8937 GIG 2315 PP-VTM PAXS: 087
VRG2126 POA 2330 PP-VTA PAXS: 081
VRG2170 CWB 2335 PP-VTL PAXS: 095

Other Aircraft in use yesterday:

PT-SSQ - CGH-BSB-CGH-SDU-CGH-POA-GRU-BSB-FOR-BSB-GRU
PT-MNH - POA-CGH-FLN-CGH-POA-CWB-CGH-CWB-CGH
PP-VQN - SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH
PP-VON - CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU-CGH-SDU
PP-VRJ , PP-VTI and VTP - Europe-Brazil flights (FRA-GIG, FRA-GRU and LHR-GRU-GIG)

Quoting LVZXV (Reply 15):
Active

M11s: PP-VTI (World Cup c/s), VTK, VTP - All for UPS, 2006
772s: PP-VRI, VRJ
763s: PP-VTC, VTE (both EuroAtlantic)
733s: PP-VNZ, VON, VOY, VOZ, VPY, VQN, VTA + PT-SSQ (Rio Sul)
734s: PP-VTL, VTM, VTN
735s: PT-MNH (Nordeste)

Very close LVZXV!
VRI grounded. VRJ to be grounded soonest, please add PP-VOJ (RG 763) as this aircraft is used on GIG-FRA, GRU-FRA or GIG-GRU-LHR

If i remember any further info, i will post later. Any doubt, feel free to ask!

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
bennett123
Posts: 7426
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:18 am

The question is who will act in 2006.
 
JJMNGR
Posts: 924
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 9:06 pm

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:28 am

Very poor loads of RG...possible Smiles pax getting rid of their miles? Is anybody still buying RG tkts?

Does anybody believe that this new auction is the salvation for RG?
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:19 am

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 23):
Very poor loads of RG...possible Smiles pax getting rid of their miles? Is anybody still buying RG tkts?

Hi Richard, sales are really poor, in fact very low. Smiles IIRC is limited to 10% of the aircraft but due to several flights cancelled, some flights get 20% and up to 30% of the plane with FF free tickets.
Sales are limited to people that come into the airport and verify that the flight will departure. Due to lower fares, i believe they still sell some tickets.

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 23):
Does anybody believe that this new auction is the salvation for RG?

Hard to believe, now another plane has been grounded, PP-VTM. Today they cancel also one of the flights to EZE (RG8648 in the afternoon).

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
sampa737
Posts: 463
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 2:20 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:38 am

Band News reports today that 77 flights were cancelled as of 16 hours, July 5.
 
ghost77
Posts: 4458
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:12 am

Anyupdate on RG's status?

ghooost77 APM
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
LipeGIG
Posts: 5048
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 7:33 am

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 26):
Anyupdate on RG's status?

Hi Ghost, i will try to post a new thread with fresh info on Varig status later on.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
ghost77
Posts: 4458
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: Varig July 4, 2006

Sat Jul 08, 2006 10:27 am

Great Felipe! Thanks!

ghooost77 APM
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!

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