atmx2000
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It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:41 pm

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/276553_boeing06.html

The article is titled first 787 cancellation, which is incorrect for two reasons:

Xiamen was the first cancellation and Primaris never placed a firm order.

So who is game for 2010 slots?
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HAL
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:44 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Thread starter):
So who is game for 2010 slots?

Hawaiian! Big grin Big grin
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dutchjet
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:54 pm

No surprise......actually this is a good thing as the slots can be reassigned to an airline that will seriously order the 787 if those slots have not already been reassigned. The Primaris order was never taken seriously and now its over with.

And I would not count on seeing 20 new 738s being delivered to Primaris either.
 
PanHAM
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 2:57 pm

20 slots as early as 2010? Perfect fit for Lufthansa-
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TL925
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:45 pm

I would imagine the freed up slots (if not done already) would be given first priority to existing customers over a new customer. I could be wrong though.
 
LAXintl
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:51 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 2):
And I would not count on seeing 20 new 738s being delivered to Primaris either.

738 order was cancelled as well.
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leelaw
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:02 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Thread starter):
The article is titled first 787 cancellation, which is incorrect for two reasons:

Xiamen was the first cancellation and Primaris never placed a firm order.

The editors at the Seattle PI really screwed-up this headline, they obviously didn't read Mr. Wallace's article very carefully before attaching a headline, and certainly aren't as familiar with the subject mater. Sad
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Flying-Tiger
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:04 pm

Actually a surprise - and not.

Not because Primaris has been on shaky ground since their order.

A surprise because I had thought that they would try to sell out their positions to other carriers, very well knowing how lucrative their slots are at the moment. An alternative would have been to convert from an airline outfit to a "mostly-lessor" company and lease out these positions. Anyway, Boeing will be quite happy now.

Does this mean that Boeing will have to book 50 cancellations next week? Or has this always only been a LoI/MoU?
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:14 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 7):
A surprise because I had thought that they would try to sell out their positions to other carriers, very well knowing how lucrative their slots are at the moment

The OEMs always provide in their contracts with customers that delivery slots cannot be assigned by customers to third-parties without their consent. The OEMs much prefer to profit themselves when they've got a hot product.
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:27 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 7):
Does this mean that Boeing will have to book 50 cancellations next week? Or has this always only been a LoI/MoU?

It never got past the LoI/MoU stage so Boeing do not have to book any firm orders off their book though the commitment is gone.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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oldeuropean
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:14 pm

No suprise. This "order" was a joke and always seen as a public relation action by both, Boeing and Primaris.

Axel

[Edited 2006-07-06 10:28:52]
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antares
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 5:17 pm

Creates an opportunity for Virgin Blue perhaps? Just a thought, even though it doesn't give them lift in 08.

Antares
 
centrair
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:13 pm

And yet Primaris hasn't changed their website...as if anyone was looking at it.
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F14ATomcat
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:17 pm

The real question here is to who gets the early slots? Singapore? Quoting the article "Yvonne Leach, a spokeswoman for the 787 program, said the company and Primaris agreed that "it was the right time" to cancel the order." Certainly there was an additional monetary commitment to be made by Primaris.... "Primaris paid Boeing a deposit to hold delivery positions starting in 2010 for the 787s. Primaris would have had to pay Boeing additional money to keep those delivery positions at a time when it needs cash, Morris said." that they were not in a position to make.... and from Primaris Chief Morris "He said the airline is "getting close" to raising the investment money it needs to go forward with a large fleet of leased airplanes." It looks to me like they (Primaris) were going to have to make an additional commitment soon and that delaying the inevitable non-order was no longer to Boeings’ advantage. So somebody will get those slots soon. Let the speculation begin.
 
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 9:48 pm

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 7):
Does this mean that Boeing will have to book 50 cancellations next week?

They were never counted as firm orders, so no cancellations for total orders tally.
 
keesje
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:00 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Thread starter):
Primaris never placed a firm order.

Come lets not downplay this folks.

The "order" was fully exploited in the 7e7 PR campaign.



"We welcome Primaris to the team. With the 737s and 7E7s in its fleet, the airline will capitalize on the superior economics, fast turnaround times and low maintenance of Boeing airplanes. Both airplanes fit perfectly into the operational cost structure that is proven with successful low-cost carriers," said Bair.

It must be a dissapointment. 20 Off.

Weren't the 2010 slots already to be given away (QF?)
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NYC777
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:09 pm

There will be quite a few important carriers lining up for those slots. Boeing may have something to say about who gets those slots at Farnborough. Maybe AF or LH or AA!!!!
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DAYflyer
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:10 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
Come lets not downplay this folks.

The "order" was fully exploited in the 7e7 PR campaign.

Yeah, it almost sounded as bogus as a few of the PR spins out of France.
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mrstl
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:16 pm

AA could sure use these slots-- seems too good to pass up especially if quarterly results are strong.
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:21 pm

While they could not sell the slots, they could still sell the airplanes. Or lease them out.
Sure, financing is hard at the beginning, but if I really wanted to have 20 787s I'd consider a deal in which I'd help them to finance the firm orders and deliveries and then take over the planes in return for a decent price tag. Primaris being a launch customer (discount) could have gotten a decent profit, their buyer could have gotten a decent deal on it, and Boeing would have avoided the headline and could actually have firmed up the PE order, which would have surprised me... Sure, Beoing should be better off selling them directly, but still it would have been a win-win-win-situation. Now they can charge premium for the slots or charge airlines to move up their slots, or they can throw that in like a discount. Now it is win-lose-we'll see... (Boeing-PE-buyer)... At least a leasing company could have approached PE and milked them out, then we would have a clear loser, but another winner... lol
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:41 pm

I hope Royal Jordanian or Gulf Air take those! I believe the former is really interested but discouraged with the late deliveries.....
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 17):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):Come lets not downplay this folks.

The "order" was fully exploited in the 7e7 PR campaign.
Yeah, it almost sounded as bogus as a few of the PR spins out of France.

Both manufacturers do it. Nothing new here. Move on. Do not hijack this thread.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
Weren't the 2010 slots already to be given away (QF?)

I *believe* those were slots that were being held for Qatar Airways.

I'd be interested to know how many of Primaris's slots were before the earliest open slots at present. Is this going to mean close to twenty earlier slots earlier than what the program has sold out to, or is it only a small number?

V/F
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
20 slots as early as 2010? Perfect fit for Lufthansa

Or maybe for DE. Their oldest 767 (D-ABUZ) will be 20 years old by 2011 (with the very first DE 767 D-ABUX having left the fleet already in 1993), so DE will need to use that LH code to buy some brandnew 787-8s (maybe some 10 frames). The rest can be used directly by LH for a 787-3 or 787-9 order.

[Edited 2006-07-06 17:03:50]
 
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LN-MOW
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Thread starter):


Xiamen was the first cancellation

Xiamen is part of the PPRC order for 60 planes. They will be assigned to another Chinese carrier, so this is not a cancellation.
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airfrnt
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:19 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Thread starter):
So who is game for 2010 slots?

EK, BA, VS, CO, UA

Quoting Oldeuropean (Reply 10):
No suprise. This "order" was a joke and always seen as a public relation action by both, Boeing and Primaris.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
Come lets not downplay this folks.

The "order" was fully exploited in the 7e7 PR campaign.

You are absolutly correct. The plane has come a long long way since the initial somewhat shakey launch where carriers like Primaris could sneak in and grab ideal production slots.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):

It must be a dissapointment. 20 Off.

Weren't the 2010 slots already to be given away (QF?)

I rather suspect that Boeing is happy with this particular turn of events. If the Primaris slots have not already been given away, this will free up a number of slots at least two years before the 350/370 sees life.
 
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STT757
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:26 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 24):
EK, BA, VS, CO, UA

CO already has 20 787s on order, the first will arrive in 2009.
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting LN-MOW (Reply 23):
Xiamen is part of the PPRC order for 60 planes. They will be assigned to another Chinese carrier, so this is not a cancellation.

Actually not, refer to Boeing's order page: 3 787s were cancelled, and instead an order for 6 737-800s was placed. So yes, Xiamen DID cancel their 787 order, however, they were only 3 planes anyway, so certainly not a big blow.
 
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 24):

I rather suspect that Boeing is happy with this particular turn of events. If the Primaris slots have not already been given away, this will free up a number of slots at least two years before the 350/370 sees life.

QR had valuable slots for the 787, and when they had decided to go for the A350 instead, the valuable slots went to QF....so it turned out to be a postive for Boeing.. thumbsup 
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CX747
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:35 am

Nice to see certain people taking a shot at Boeing over this "loss". I'm sure the Primaris order cancellation is a grave blow to the company. If you buy into ANYONE's PR then I have a few bridges to sell you. This is actually a positive for Boeing because they have 20 slots to sell.

Lufthansa?
Singapore?
Virgin Atlantic? (They were talking about getting A330s so why not 787s?)
American?
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VirginFlyer
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:37 am

Quoting LN-MOW (Reply 23):
so this is not a cancellation

Boeing have it listed as a cancellation on their website:

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm

A thought about the slots. If they are in 2010, then they probably won't be able to give them to SQ - they ordered the 787-9, and the first one of those isn't being delivered until December 2010, to NZ, according to Boeing.

V/F
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LN-MOW
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 26):
3 787s were cancelled, and instead an order for 6 737-800s was placed.

I stand corrected.  thumbsup 
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B757capt
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 12:47 am

I'm going to put my money on an order from Airtran after the 2012 mark.
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FriendlySkies
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
Come lets not downplay this folks.

I'll downplay all day...this "order" meant nothing to the 787 program, and hardly anyone actually believed it would ever go through. I wouldn't call it a blow, it's more of a positive event for the program in general, because now a more competent airline can purchase those slots.

Quoting B757capt (Reply 31):
I'm going to put my money on an order from Airtran after the 2012 mark.

What does that have to do with this thread?
 
tzadik
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Thread starter):
So who is game for 2010 slots?

El Al Israel Airlines
 
Ken777
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
Come lets not downplay this folks.

I have a feeling that the 787 sales team at Boeing are far from downplaying the 20 slots being freed up.

The early slots can be used to generate sales that far exceed the Primaris order. If each bundle of, say, 4 - 5 early slots can be turned into an order for 20+ 787s then Boeing will be smiling all the way to the bank.

The main questions are:

What were the slot dates?

Which major airlines would be first in line to be offered these slots?

Finally, with the opportunity for ramping up production, what will be the availability pre-2012 for new orders and deliveries.

On the international side I think that LH and even BA will be looking at these slots with a lot of interest. In the US I believe that UA will be more than interested and AA might even start working on the spreadsheets.

If we're not to downplay these 20 freed slots then I would think it provides Boeing with an opportunity to strengthen the 787's position in the market even more.
 
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TK787
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting Tzadik (Reply 33):
El Al Israel Airlines

I agree. I wish for TK to put in an order for 20. Or how about Olympic or whatever it is going to be replaced with? And maybe DL or OS?
 
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:03 am

Quoting F14ATomcat (Reply 13):
The real question here is to who gets the early slots? Singapore?

SQ ordered 787-9s, which will not be available until after 2010. While Primaris probably never firmed exactly what type of 787 they wanted, those 20 slots can only be filled with 787-3s or 787-8s in 2010.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 15):
It must be a dissapointment. 20 Off.

I am sure it is, but hopefully Boeing will be able to assign them to a firm customer, which would be better since the deposit on an order has to be more then one on a slot reservation.

Quote:
Weren't the 2010 slots already to be given away (QF?)



Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 21):
I *believe* those were slots that were being held for Qatar Airways.

That is the general belief, though I have heard on airliners.net that QR had less then 10 actual paid slot-reservations. Still, QF has said that availability played a role so perhaps Boeing gave QR a "buy one reservation, get four free" deal or something since QR was looking to buy so many and Boeing held them in reserve incase EK (or, in this case QF), came a calling.  Smile

20 slots would nicely cover QF's "guaranteed options", however, so perhaps QF will now formally exercise them...
 
eatmybologna
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:19 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 34):
The main questions are:

What were the slot dates?

Exactly. Wasn't Primaris one of the first to place an order for the Dreamliner? If so, aren't some of the slots are in the 2008, 2009 period?

Also, for an additional charge, perhaps the airlines that already placed their orders can shift their slots to those abandoned by Primaris.

E-M-B
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amirs
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting Tzadik (Reply 33):
Quoting Atmx2000 (Thread starter):
So who is game for 2010 slots?

El Al Israel Airlines

Actually EL AL already made a deposit for a hold on 2010 slots. I think they paid around $1 million.
If LY end up going for A330/A350 deal, then that would free up around 10 more 2010 slots.

Btw - A bit off topic but, is there a list of future 787/777 slots, down to the month?

[Edited 2006-07-06 19:34:52]
 
CX747
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:07 am

I agree that Primaris releasing/cancelling their 787 order is actually a positive for Boeing. Several airlines have stated over the past few months that trying to get 787s earlier rather than later was an issue. Now Boeing has 20 production slots to sell to the "highest" bidder. Boeing can move up a current customer to keep them happy or make them happier. Boeing can also sell these slots to a carrier like Lufthansa or Virgin Atlantic/Blue who might be thinking about ordering 787s but having an issue with waiting so long now.
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cityguy
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:16 am

I actually called the Primaris office a few day ago and the phone was answered by a very upbeat lady who said they were "still in business".....whatever that means. Shame-as a VERY frequent business traveler I would have gladly gone from being Chairman's on US to trying them out. US Chairman's is not to bad, but the A330"s are frequently late or broken.
 
MAH4546
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:21 am

I can hope the people at AA take a risk for once and go for it already. They know they'll need them. I admire AMR Corporation's ability to be conservative (and therefore they are in pretty good financial shape), but it is going to hurt them in the long run.
a.
 
RIXrat
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:24 am

Mind getting fuzzy. I know we've been over this time and again, but what airline/airlines will be getting the first 787s?
 
BestWestern
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 41):
I can hope the people at AA take a risk for once and go for it already

And people wonder why AA remains not in bankruptcy... Just like BA, they are sensible
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NYC777
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting RIXrat (Reply 42):
Mind getting fuzzy. I know we've been over this time and again, but what airline/airlines will be getting the first 787s?

Ana and then followed (suprisingly) by Ethiopian!!!
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MAH4546
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 43):
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 41):
I can hope the people at AA take a risk for once and go for it already

And people wonder why AA remains not in bankruptcy... Just like BA, they are sensible

Yes, but look at CAL. Also in healthy shape, but with new aircraft and smart expansion that AA isn't doing. This better prepares them for the future, and AA will have to play catch up.
a.
 
Aither
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:42 am

I was more than expected. The whole thing at this time was to get a first 787 order (it took time if you remember).
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ZKOJH
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:46 am

NZ have brought there dilvery slots forward from 2011 to 2010, when the take hold of the 787-9 series,
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:00 am

Quoting MrSTL (Reply 18):
AA could sure use these slots-- seems too good to pass up especially if quarterly results are strong.



Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 41):
I can hope the people at AA take a risk for once and go for it already. They know they'll need them. I admire AMR Corporation's ability to be conservative (and therefore they are in pretty good financial shape), but it is going to hurt them in the long run.

I highly doubt AA will take advantage of the open slots. AA has said time and time again, no more new airplanes till we can make money with our existing fleet. AA has over $20b in debt, I dount they will want to add on another $2b. 4 years from now is too soon. I would not count on seeing the 787 till 2015 at the earliest. Remember the 777 was nearly 5 years old before AA placed their first order for that.
 
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RE: It's Official: Primaris Relinquishes 787 Slots

Fri Jul 07, 2006 7:47 am

Quoting Dc10s4ever (Reply 48):
AA has said time and time again, no more new airplanes till we can make money with our existing fleet.

If that is their precise mentality, then the problem with it is that they could make a profit more easily with new equipment.
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