leelaw
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2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:29 am

Pictures: Second curved large wingtip devices design tested on Airbus A320

Airbus has begun testing the second set of large wingtip devices for the A320 family at its Toulouse headquarters.


http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...vices+design+tested+on+Airbus.html
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airbusA346
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:32 am

Looks nice, by odd




Tom.
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flyabunch
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 1:54 am

I think this second type looks better on the bus than the first "737" style ones did. They look a little more fragile but at the same time more graceful.

Mike
 
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Vasu
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:01 am

These look really nice! Have they totally replaced the earlier large winglet design?
 
mbj2000
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:05 am

Quoting AirbusA346 (Reply 1):

Actually the pics seem odd, look like a bad Photoshop job to me?!

 confused 
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WINGS
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A3

Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:06 am



VS



I'm finding it rather hard to choose which one looks better. It will also be interesting to see of the two which one will provide better fuel efficiency.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
airbusA346
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 4):
Actually the pics seem odd, look like a bad Photoshop job to me?!

How did u figure that out.

Quoting WINGS (Reply 5):

I prefer:



Then


There are a few more pictures on A.net of the new winglets.

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Photo © Christophe RAMOS
View Large View Medium
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Photo © French Frogs AirSlides



Tom.
Tom Walker '086' First Officer of a A318/A319 for Air Lambert - Hours Flown: 17 hour 05 minutes (last updated 24/12/05).
 
hiflyer
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:16 am

The fact that they are testing a second design now after releasing the first one for sale suggest's that there is substantially more to gain with the second.... otherwise why do it? The curvature on this one intead of the right angles on the previous one suggests there may be additional gains in airflow with the curve.
 
rpaillard
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting WINGS (Reply 5):
I'm finding it rather hard to choose which one looks better

The second one in my opinion. Much more design shape!

Quoting WINGS (Reply 5):
which one will provide better fuel efficiency.

Well, I figure that's the point of the projet. So we just have to be patient. One can figure that the desgin revision is to improve that.

Regards,
Raphael
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scouseflyer
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 7):
The fact that they are testing a second design now after releasing the first one for sale suggest's that there is substantially more to gain with the second.... otherwise why do it? The curvature on this one intead of the right angles on the previous one suggests there may be additional gains in airflow with the curve.

Are they not testing both with an idea to pick the best?
 
aeroweanie
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 2:46 am

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 7):
The fact that they are testing a second design now after releasing the first one for sale suggest's that there is substantially more to gain with the second.... otherwise why do it?

No - its a A vs. B test. The first winglet was designed by Airbus. The second winglet was designed by an outside firm, Winglet Systems.
 
SkyexRamper
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:19 am

Can't airbus just leave winglets alone, they're for boeings not airbuses.  Wink
But the 1st set looks far better than these new paper looking things that might as well been cut by a child.
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USairways16BWI
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:44 am

Those curvy ones look ALOT better than the first ones....very nice IMO  checkmark 
 
gigneil
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 7):
The fact that they are testing a second design now after releasing the first one for sale suggest's that there is substantially more to gain with the second.... otherwise why do it?

They haven't released the first for sale. This is a bake-off.

N
 
smokeyrosco
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:48 am

Quoting Flyabunch (Reply 2):
I think this second type looks better on the bus than the first "737" style ones did. They look a little more fragile but at the same time more graceful.

I thought the first ones looked more 330ish and the these ones lookes more 737ish
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:18 pm

These new "curved" wingtips to me look MUCH better than the other versions we've seen. I do think it looks like a knock off of what Boeing achieved with their winglets for the NG 737's, though.

I don't know what it is, though....To me Airbus planes just don't look good with winglets. I can't explain it, but they just don't look good at all to me. I prefer Airbus planes with the fences.
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speedbird128
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:41 pm

Quoting S12PPL (Reply 15):
These new "curved" wingtips to me look MUCH better than the other versions we've seen. I do think it looks like a knock off of what Boeing achieved with their winglets for the NG 737's, though.

I thought the second set were designed by Aviation Partners? Perhaps I was misinformed...

Quoting Hiflyer (Reply 7):
The fact that they are testing a second design now after releasing the first one for sale suggest's that there is substantially more to gain with the second.... otherwise why do it? The curvature on this one intead of the right angles on the previous one suggests there may be additional gains in airflow with the curve.

From the outset of the winglet programme for the A320, there were always going to be two sets: one in-house pair from Airbus, and another from an external company (which I thought was going to be Aviation Partners).
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columba
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 3:51 pm

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 16):
thought the second set were designed by Aviation Partners? Perhaps I was misinformed...

No oyu are right. The first set was designed by Airbus and the second by Aviation partners.
Actually I prefer the first set, the second ones have a nice curvy design but look to fragile and it seems that they don�t fit to the wing. It just looks odd.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Aviator27
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 4:09 pm

Was Airbus the first manufacturer to put "winglets" on a commercial transport airplane? I still prefer the present A320 wing-tip fences. However, if the new designs provide some additional economy, go for it. Economics trump looks any day. Plus if winglets are so great, how come its not even available on the B777? Has anyone ever noticed that?
 
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shamrock350
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:18 pm

They look almost 787-ish, its the way they curve backwards I think.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:58 pm

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 18):
Plus if winglets are so great, how come its not even available on the B777? Has anyone ever noticed that?

I'm just guessing here but isn't the 777 really quite wide already and it would reduce the number of terminals that it can park at if it was made wider with curvy winglets - similar to the way that the A380 has little things as bigger winglets would take it outside of the 80m box
 
Gary2880
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:46 pm

Quoting Skyexramper (Reply 11):
they're for boeings not airbuses.

kinda like they were for embraers and tupolovs before boeings  Wink

looks 7E7ish to me also.

maybe airbus can make it work where as boeing couldn't?  Wink
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DIJKKIJK
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:34 pm

So any idea which customer is going to be flying the first A320 with curved winglets
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:57 pm

Quoting Shamrock350 (Reply 19):
They look almost 787-ish

My thoughts exactly. They remind me of something you see on a concept drawing.
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md80fanatic
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:16 pm

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 18):
Was Airbus the first manufacturer to put "winglets" on a commercial transport airplane?

Uh, I don't think so.


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scouseflyer
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:26 pm

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 22):
So any idea which customer is going to be flying the first A320 with curved winglets

JetBlue I think
 
Sinlock
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:18 pm

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 18):
Was Airbus the first manufacturer to put "winglets" on a commercial transport airplane?



Quoting Md80fanatic (Reply 24):
Uh, I don't think so.


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Sorry, but these babys were around over a year before the MD-11.


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HAWK21M
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:21 pm

Looks Good.
When will the Results be out.
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rpaillard
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:24 pm

Hi,

Except Jet Blue, is there other compagny that report interest for that?

Raphael
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leelaw
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting Sinlock (Reply 26):
Sorry, but these babys were around over a year before the MD-11.

Is that technically a "wing fence," and not a winglet on the A306?

BTW, wasn't the 744 the first commercial transport to have winglets included as part of the original design?
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787engineer
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A3

Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 29):
Is that technically a "wing fence," and not a winglet on the A306?

BTW, wasn't the 744 the first commercial transport to have winglets included as part of the original design?

Yes, I think 744 was the first to have winglets included in the original design. In the case of the 777 as is in most aircraft, increasing the aspect ratio has a greater benefit to the aerodynamic efficency than adding a winglet. That's why the 777's wing was designed to be about as big as it could be to fit in a standard terminal gate.

Here's a link to some interesting info on wingtips:
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/a...hnology/Facts/TF-2004-15-DFRC.html

[Edited 2006-07-07 17:07:21]
 
B6767200
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:04 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 25):
Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 22):
So any idea which customer is going to be flying the first A320 with curved winglets

JetBlue I think

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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:18 am

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 18):
Was Airbus the first manufacturer to put "winglets" on a commercial transport airplane?

It isn't an airliner, but it is a transport aircraft - the Lear 55 came with winglets from the get-go:


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I'm pretty sure they were the first.

V/F
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baroque
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:22 am

I just hope that Airbus is not trying to work out which is best by reading this thread! They will have plucked all the petals off their daisy by now.

But seriously can one of our learned aerodynamacists tell us what happens with the various styles of termination for the wings?

1. 320 style fences

2. The angled winglets

3. Curved winglets

4. Raked wingtips.

5. Any that I have missed.

Also a rough summary of at what ranges weight can be overcome by reductions in drag and effects on wake turbulence.

Dont want much, but then I am not a demanding sort of person!

Oh, and do subs have any similar add ons, just possibly addressed to Astuteman. At least the subs will not have to undergo the style tests unless they test approval with a school of dolphins.
 
baroque
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:54 am

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 30):
Here's a link to some interesting info on wingtips:

Thank you for the link. It arrived while I was scribing away. I guess you just elected yourself as a learned aerodynamacist, which you probably were anyway. But, says he plaintively, I dont think the link tells us about the variants on end plates. So maybe part of my question is still valid.
 
MD80Nut
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Sat Jul 08, 2006 1:12 am

All I can say is UGLY! The A320 looks so much better with the original wingtip fences. Keep the fences, dump the winglets. IMO.

Of course, if the new winglets do improve the performance of the A320 enough to warrant the expense, then I expect we'll see a lot more of them.

Cheers, Ralph
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gigneil
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting DIJKKIJK (Reply 22):
So any idea which customer is going to be flying the first A320 with curved winglets

The curved winglets have not been selected, so at this point nobody will.

As I said before, this is a bake-off between the two winglet types.

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 16):
I thought the second set were designed by Aviation Partners? Perhaps I was misinformed...



Quoting Columba (Reply 17):
The first set was designed by Airbus and the second by Aviation partners.

You were misinformed. The second set, the curved ones, were designed by a company called Winglet Technologies.

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 35):
All I can say is UGLY! The A320 looks so much better with the original wingtip fences. Keep the fences, dump the winglets. IMO.

Your opinion is to abandon massive aerodynamic improvements to satisfy an aesthetic desire?

N
 
B6767200
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:25 am

Does anyone know the cost of installing theses wingtips?
 
aeroweanie
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:53 am

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 16):
I thought the second set were designed by Aviation Partners? Perhaps I was misinformed...



Quoting Columba (Reply 17):
o oyu are right. The first set was designed by Airbus and the second by Aviation partners.

No, no, no!!! API had nothing to do with the A320 winglets (and can't under their agreement with Boeing). The second set was designed by Winglet Systems, of Wichita Kansas. The aero mind (and patent holder) for them is Fort Felker and the President of the company is an ex-APB guy.
 
aeroweanie
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting VirginFlyer (Reply 32):
I'm pretty sure they were the first.

For the record, the first aircraft to fly with winglets was the Rutan VariEze (1974). The first production aircraft to fly with winglets was the IAI Arava 201 (1976). The first jet to fly with winglets was Learjet 28 (1977). The first airliner type aircraft to fly with winglets was a NASA KC-135 (1979), followed by a NASA leased DC-10 (1981).
 
aeroweanie
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A3

Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 33):
But seriously can one of our learned aerodynamacists tell us what happens with the various styles of termination for the wings?

This thread covered this topic back in March 2005: What Difference Does Each Type Of Winglet Make? (by RootsAir Mar 18 2005 in Tech Ops)

To reiterate my summary:

For a first-order analysis of the benefit from a winglet, lay it down flat as if it was a span extension. Hence, taller is better. Then, look at whether the winglet joins the wing in a sharp break or a smooth flow. Smooth is better.

Using this criteria, I'll rank the winglets (and raked tip):

1) The A3100/310/318/319/320/321/380 "winglets" are the least effective, but also increase wing bending moments the least. I have never seen a published number for how much they reduce drag (even Jupp's patent US4,714,215 says little), but I'd guess they are worth 1-1.5% drag improvement.

2) The MD-11 winglets come next. They are a direct outgrowth of Whitcomb's original designs. I have some NASA reports on the flight testing of a similar winglet on a DC-10. According to CR-3704, these winglets are produce a 2-2.5% drag reduction in cruise.

3) The Valsan/Quietwing 727 winglets are a latter Whitcomb influenced design. Coupled with a flap droop on the 727, they are reputed to be worth about 5%. The flap droop reduces wing bending moments and helps reduce wave drag, so the 5% is a mixture of effects. The winglet by itself is probably worth about 3%.

4) The 747-400 and A330/340 winglets are rather similar. They fall on the wing span extension line. I've read that the 747-400 winglets produce about a 3.5% drag reduction.

5) The 776-400ER/777-300ER/777-200LR raked tips also fall on the span extension line. They produce varying amounts of drag reduction, depending on their span. They also increase wing bending moments quite a bit.

6) The API/APB blended winglets produce better results than the span extension line indicates. The 737NG winglets are first generation and I've read that they produce about a 4.5% drag reduction. Later API/APB winglets improve on this.
 
aviationzone
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:21 pm

The 2nd winglet configuration (elliptical) currently being tested by Airbus for the A320 is a Winglet Technology (Wichita, KS) design which was manufactured by EDO Corporation - Fiber Science in Salt Lake City, UT USA.

I think the elliptical looks better than the 1st design on the aircraft, however "looks" will take back seat to performance I'm sure.
 
baroque
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A3

Thu Jul 13, 2006 7:29 pm

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 40):
This thread covered this topic back in March 2005:
What Difference Does Each Type Of Winglet Make? (by RootsAir Mar 18 2005 in Tech Ops)

To reiterate my summary:

Super, thank you - a brilliantly succinct summary. I feel illuminated! I look forward to seeing how what they chose matches the order of effectiveness.
 
CRJ900
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RE: 2nd Curved Wingtip Devices Design Tested On A320

Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:38 pm

The curved winglets look very modern, the other ones look very 1990s... I hope the curved ones are the most efficient ones and are chosen over the others  Smile
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