keesje
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Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:16 am

Airbus apperently signed an engine deal with RR for the A350.

After finishing the 787 & A380 initial engine development they can implement the lessons learned into this new engine.



I like the sound of those new Trents. Also talk about a launch customer to be announced soon.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...601087&sid=a5UHOvm3pS5A&refer=home
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eatmybologna
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:32 am

Well, I hope that GE will jump on board for the likes of airlines such as AF and others that only prefer the brand. It also sounds as though Airbus is not that far into detailing the specifications of the A350 as GE claims to not yet know enough about the plane to decide on entering the market.

E-M-B
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WINGS
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Also talk about a launch customer to be announced soon.

Hi Keesje, I can not find a reference to this statement.

Regards,
Wings
Aviation Is A Passion.
 
airfrnt
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
I like the sound of those new Trents. Also talk about a launch customer to be announced soon.

Couldn't find anything in the article about it, but the question is how many customers Airbus can retain from the current A350 campaigns.

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
Airbus apperently signed an engine deal with RR for the A350.

Not much new there. The question still is if they can get GE to bite on building them a new engine.
 
787engineer
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 3):

Not much new there. The question still is if they can get GE to bite on building them a new engine.

I don't see GE biting until the plane is launched, and we can all see the interest in this new "A350/A370". Airbus needs to show it can sell the plane first. . . especially if they "cancel" the current A350. If Airbus picks up orders at a fair pace and it looks the plane will be qutie succesful, GE will put the $$ in for a new engine. Airbus already has its engine manufacturer in RR to launch the plane.
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:43 am

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 1):
Well, I hope that GE will jump on board for the likes of airlines such as AF and others that only prefer the brand. It also sounds as though Airbus is not that far into detailing the specifications of the A350 as GE claims to not yet know enough about the plane to decide on entering the market.

For GE there is more at stake then the A350 design. They are the lead provider for the 777 and invested a lot in the 787.

No doubt they will not leave the market to RR. They will probably come up with a great engine in the GE90 - GENX tradition that might also be offered on the A380 later on.

http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?C...bd277c-476b-4aed-b85a-7811412c497c

Wings: seventh paragraph bottom.

Interresting detail; GE & RR created two different solutions to combine optimal shape, strenght & low weight for the fan blades. GE carbon blades with titanium leading edges, RR developped a process to create hollow titanium blades.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
eatmybologna
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
GE carbon blades with titanium leading edges

Keesje, sorry for the stupid question, however here goes. Are they carbon fiber blades with titanium leading edges? Or a carbon steel alloy? I can just imagine how hot the blades must get, especially near the major diameter. I'm not sure how hot though, and can't imagine carbon fiber holding up to the heat.

Thanks,

E-M-B
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:27 am

So the hints seem to continue to lead toward a 777-sized competitor.

I am sure GE will enter (since they would also have something to offer to re-engine 777-200s), and might very well do so under the Engine Alliance initiative (since it would be a good wedge to get the EU to rescind the "four engine only" rule) to both get the P&W 409x 777 re-engine market and to power later variants of the A380 family.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 3:49 am

From article: "Airbus also may disclose an initial order for A350 at the show, which opens July 17, said the people."

GE is likely not sold on stretching itself any thinner than they need to. With the 787, the 748, the 777LR family, the EA 380 engines, and the next CFM engines for the 320NG and 737RS, they'll be selling plenty of engines. They looked to be willing to do the 350 in the old form because they were within the same family as the 787 and 748 engines, but now that might not be the case.

Having lost out on the 777 and 748 exclusivity deals (betting on the wrong horse with the 340 series), RR is in a more urgent position to establish themselves with Airbus-centric carriers.
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F14D4ever
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:35 am

Quoting Eatmybologna (Reply 6):
Are they carbon fiber blades with titanium leading edges? Or a carbon steel alloy? I can just imagine how hot the blades must get, especially near the major diameter. I'm not sure how hot though, and can't imagine carbon fiber holding up to the heat.

The blades are in fact carbon fiber. They're well-proven on the GE90. We're talking about fan blades, not hot section airfoils.
"He is risen, as He said."
 
airfrnt
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 4):

I don't see GE biting until the plane is launched, and we can all see the interest in this new "A350/A370". Airbus needs to show it can sell the plane first. . . especially if they "cancel" the current A350. If Airbus picks up orders at a fair pace and it looks the plane will be qutie succesful, GE will put the $$ in for a new engine. Airbus already has its engine manufacturer in RR to launch the plane.

Launching a plane with only one engine choice after the cat fight that was the 787 engine selection doesn't look good.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):

No doubt they will not leave the market to RR. They will probably come up with a great engine in the GE90 - GENX tradition that might also be offered on the A380 later on.

Sure, there is plenty of doubt. If GE thinks that the market for the 370 is too small, or sees the opportunity to solo bid the 787-11 (a single member of the 787 family) I could easily see them passing on a 350/370 engine. It's also quite possible that GE is miffed at the amount of work they did making the bleedless GEnx work for the 350.
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 4:57 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 10):
It's also quite possible that GE is miffed at the amount of work they did making the bleedless GEnx work for the 350.

Yes, and for the 747-8, launched before the A350.

Curious what position PW takes in all this GE vs RR action.

Will they come up with a PW4000 successor? What if a larger GE engine is clearly better then the GP7000 series for e.g. the A370/A380? (& this is not unlikely..)
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:10 am

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 4):
don't see GE biting until the plane is launched, and we can all see the interest in this new "A350/A370". Airbus needs to show it can sell the plane first. . . especially if they "cancel" the current A350. If Airbus picks up orders at a fair pace and it looks the plane will be qutie succesful, GE will put the $$ in for a new engine. Airbus already has its engine manufacturer in RR to launch the plane.

Makes sense to me.

And if Airbus did have a new launch customer for the new A-350, they would certainly announce it to offset the current stream of turbulent PR they have run into of late.
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NWDC10
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:21 am

That's a darn good looking jet engine which is my fav part of commercial aircraft-the jet engine. Robert NWDC10
 
WSOY
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:27 am

Have I missed something, or am I just stupid again? Is Finnair not the launch customer of March, 2006? Or are there more Trents than this one?

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

AIRLINE INDUSTRY INFORMATION-(C)1997-2006 M2 COMMUNICATIONS LTD

"Finnish airline Finnair Plc said on Monday (20 March) that its new generation Airbus A350 aircraft would be fitted with Trent 1700 engines, manufactured by Rolls-Royce.

Finnair has fixed orders for nine wide-bodied aircraft and options for four more, the company said.

The value of the order is nearly EUR400m. "

http://www.allbusiness.com/periodicals/article/874470-1.html

More info of the launch from the RR site:
http://www.rolls-royce.com/media/showPR.jsp?PR_ID=40318

[Edited 2006-07-07 22:39:48]
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PolymerPlane
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:33 am

Quoting Keesje (Thread starter):
I like the sound of those new Trents. Also talk about a launch customer to be announced soon.



Quoting Keesje (Reply 5):
Wings: seventh paragraph bottom.

Still can't find it Keesje. Hasn't the A350 already had launch customers? What about the 100+ orders Airbus has allegedly gathered?

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 15):
Still can't find it Keesje

I've found reading the article always helps.... Wink

Quote:-
"Airbus also may disclose an initial order for A350 at the show, which opens July 17, said the people".

(if it helps it's immediately before the sub-heading - "$10 Billion")

Regards
 
airfrnt
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):

Curious what position PW takes in all this GE vs RR action.

Will they come up with a PW4000 successor? What if a larger GE engine is clearly better then the GP7000 series for e.g. the A370/A380? (& this is not unlikely..)

P&W is definitly a possibility.
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 16):
I've found reading the article always helps....

Quote:-
"Airbus also may disclose an initial order for A350 at the show, which opens July 17, said the people".

(if it helps it's immediately before the sub-heading - "$10 Billion")

I read the article and honestly missed it  Smile thanks Astuteman. Regardless, I though A350 has already had orders, something like 100 airframes. I do not know what kind of "initial" this is. Probably just for publicity stunt

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting WSOY (Reply 14):
Have I missed something, or am I just stupid again? Is Finnair not the launch customer of March, 2006? Or are there more Trents than this one?

Well if the new Airbus plane is larger and heavier, the Trent 1700 as designed won't be able to power it. Now RR may keep that designation for the new engine, or they may call it a Trent 1XXX

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 17):
P&W is definitly a possibility.

I'm not so sure. They didn't think it was worth fighting to compete on the 787 program. Yes, they could adopt the PW4000-series to the A370 which would probably lower the development costs, but they seem to be content sticking with military powerplants per statements from their chairman back when Boeing announced GE and RR power for the 787.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:10 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):
Yes, and for the 747-8, launched before the A350.

On what planet?

The 747-8 was officially launched months after the 350, and unofficially, the 350 was marketed far longer than the 747-8 with an engine maker attached to the project.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:11 am

Pratt & Whitney proposed the PWEXX for the 7e7

- a 10-stage high-pressure compressor, ratio of 20:1,
- a new Talon (technology for affordable low nox) combustor
- two-stage high-pressure turbine based on the PW4090 (777)
- integrally bladed rotors rather than blades attached to each disk

don´t know if they continued development / prototyping after GE & PW were selected for the 7e7, maybe Lightsaber knows..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
AirbusA6
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 7:47 am

The whole situation is a bit of a shambles really.

As far as I can recall GE signed up first on the original A350, and secured the engine rights to all early A350s. RR signed up later, with Finnair their first customer.

Now with the new A350, those customers who bought GE A350s might find that the plane has changed, and the engine option has gone! Or that they can still get GEnx powered lower versions, but not for the larger 777 rival version.

What a dogs dinner, and a paradise for the lawyers...
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787engineer
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:01 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 21):
Pratt & Whitney proposed the PWEXX for the 7e7

- a 10-stage high-pressure compressor, ratio of 20:1,
- a new Talon (technology for affordable low nox) combustor
- two-stage high-pressure turbine based on the PW4090 (777)
- integrally bladed rotors rather than blades attached to each disk

don�t know if they continued development / prototyping after GE & PW were selected for the 7e7, maybe Lightsaber knows..

The GenX was the better engine. IIRC it had a slightly larger fan and a compressor pressure ratio of 23:1 (also a 10-stage compressor). I'm not sure about the integrally bladed rotors though.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 8:18 am

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 10):
Launching a plane with only one engine choice after the cat fight that was the 787 engine selection doesn't look good.

All things considered, the 787 engine selection went very smoothly.

Compared to the true bloodbath of the three-way fight between GE, Pratt, and Rolls Royce over the 777, I don't think Boeing has any regrets at this point.
 
trex8
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting 787engineer (Reply 23):
The GenX was the better engine. IIRC it had a slightly larger fan and a compressor pressure ratio of 23:1 (also a 10-stage compressor). I'm not sure about the integrally bladed rotors though.

I thought the reason Pratt lost was because it was the highest risk as it had the least in common with existing products unlike the GE and RR offerings which had some part of the new engine based on an existing product.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:46 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 25):
I thought the reason Pratt lost was because it was the highest risk as it had the least in common with existing products unlike the GE and RR offerings which had some part of the new engine based on an existing product.

I tend to think that is what I read, as well, and P&W didn't want to spend the money necessary to prototype the design enough to show it would work or something.
 
WSOY
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sat Jul 08, 2006 2:42 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 19):
Quoting WSOY (Reply 14):
Have I missed something, or am I just stupid again? Is Finnair not the launch customer of March, 2006? Or are there more Trents than this one?

Well if the new Airbus plane is larger and heavier, the Trent 1700 as designed won't be able to power it. Now RR may keep that designation for the new engine, or they may call it a Trent 1XXX

Ok, thanks for the info Stitch!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Would a temporary "working designation" for the new yet-to-be-outlined new A350 be in place to avoid confusion with the "established" A350 with e.g people like myself? The A350-TBA?

I don't think there's a particular point in trying to locate a new and improved launch customer, if the A350-TBAs specs are an unknown, wouldn't you say?
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
keesje
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sun Jul 09, 2006 6:55 am

A slip of the tongue by an enthousiastic Yemenia Chairman Captain Abdul-Khaliq al-Qadi it seems.

His corporate communication person busy on the phone right now.  Smile


By Adnan Hizam Jul 8, 2006 -
Yemenia, Yemeni airways, and Airbus will hold a meeting in London on July 18 to sign an agreement for Yemenia to buy ten Airbus A350 aircrafts, according to Yemenia Chairman Captain Abdul-Khaliq al-Qadi.


http://www.yobserver.com/news_10466.php
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sun Jul 09, 2006 7:23 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 28):
Yemenia, Yemeni airways, and Airbus will hold a meeting in London on July 18 to sign an agreement for Yemenia to buy ten Airbus A350 aircrafts, according to Yemenia Chairman Captain Abdul-Khaliq al-Qadi.

I assume this is firming their previously announced commitment for ten A350, from this March?

Yemenia-Yemen Airways to order up to 10 A350

Quoting WSOY (Reply 27):
Would a temporary "working designation" for the new yet-to-be-outlined new A350 be in place to avoid confusion with the "established" A350 with e.g people like myself? The A350-TBA?

I think that would be a good idea. Placeholder designations like A3XX, 7N7, 7X7, 7E7 seem to make the design progression seem less dramatic.

Once you put a production-like title (like A350) on the aircraft, natural design changes seem hastey and last-second.
 
baroque
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:04 pm

Quoting AirbusA6 (Reply 22):
What a dogs dinner, and a paradise for the lawyers.



Quoting WSOY (Reply 27):
Would a temporary "working designation" for the new yet-to-be-outlined new A350 be in place to avoid confusion with the "established" A350 with e.g people like myself? The A350-TBA?

And to power the A350-TBA we have the Trent 1700-ABF. Anything but frozen. The RR pages suggest that they have about a year to figure out what they are actually going to build. Anyone care to speculate if any of the major elements in the specification will change?

I am also wondering how localized the timing of canine feeding is. Here our dog's tend to have a rather messy breakfast, whereas it seems that the evening meal in the UK is more associated with chaos. Any thoughts on this weighty matter?

As if the various A350s and presumably a string of Trent 1700s were not enough, the extra complexities of who can build what among the EA partners adds an extra dimension to the breakfast/dinner. And yet after about 8-10 years, the outcome will have been totally obvious to any informed oberver. Hand me the crystal ball again!
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus A350 Engine Rolls Royce Deal

Sun Jul 09, 2006 4:53 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 29):
I assume this is firming their previously announced commitment for ten A350, from this March?

You would assume they must know something of the final specifications of the "A350" in order to do this at this time, particularly after their earlier publicly expressed concerns.

Regards

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