hockey55dude
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Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:16 pm

Will BA ever come back to San Diego? I wish they would. Also will San Diego ever get service to Europe Again?

-Kyle
 
LAXintl
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:27 pm

Regretfully San Diego's stigma for international services is that is located too close to Los Angeles. With only 100 miles separating the two metro centers many foreign carriers simply view SAN as a distant suburb of Los Angeles.

To many carriers, its simply makes more sense to concentrate services at LAX since its market size is simply so much larger than split services and try make a stand alone San Diego flight work.

San Diego is likely one of the largest cities in the country whom disproportionately lacks international air service. Possibly with the advent of smaller more efficient aircraft such as the 787, San Diego one day may again see a Europe nonstop, and possibly an Asian connection also.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
aaden
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Sun Jul 09, 2006 1:59 pm

No way, as stated above lax is a better fit. It also might have something to do with the fact that BA is a part of oneworld and lax offers more connections.
 
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:22 am

As others have said, BA found it didn't have the right passenger mix and the smallest aircraft it could use effectively was the 777. Maybe with the advent of the 787, and if BA buys that aircraft, BA would return. Also, I believe that under Bermuda II BA would have to restart non-stop service from LGW, as it was only able to switch service to LHR because it was firstly the sole carrier on the route, and secondly passenger numbers had reached a certain thresh hold.

Even with smaller aircraft and no Bermuda II I wonder if BA would have other cities in the US that it would consider higher priority, i.e. on the Eastern seaboard?
Let's Go British Caledonian!
 
wrighbrothers
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:33 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 3):
as it was only able to switch service to LHR because it was firstly the sole carrier on the route, and secondly passenger numbers had reached a certain thresh hold.

BA used DC-10's, 777's and 744's and if I remember, routings were LGW-LAX-SAN and later LGW-PHX-SAN

Wrighbrothers
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dutchjet
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:24 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):
Possibly with the advent of smaller more efficient aircraft such as the 787

This is probably the correct answer, if BA orders the 787 it would have the right number of seats and the right economics for the San Diego-London route. San Diego-London is one of those routes that "should have worked", even with the larger 777.......business traffic, tourist traffic, large population served in the SAN area, unlimited connections available at LHR, pax wanting to avoid LAX, etc. Lots of good reasons, on paper atleast, to suggest that the route would be a money maker.

Didnt BA have issues with operating the 772ER out of SAN on the long segment to London? Did the restrictions result in the route being unprofitable?
 
N1120A
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:29 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 1):
Regretfully San Diego's stigma for international services is that is located too close to Los Angeles.



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
Didnt BA have issues with operating the 772ER out of SAN on the long segment to London? Did the restrictions result in the route being unprofitable?

Dutchjet's analysis is much closer to the truth here. Sure, SAN will never have the service that LAX or SFO has, even though it is bigger than San Francisco, it is simply too close to Los Angeles. Still, it is far enough away that the difference is noticed and BA filled their 777s to Heathrow. The problem was, and always has been, SAN's short runway and terrain that cause weight hits. In BA's case, they could go full PAX/bags but couldn't carry any cargo from the port city, which would have allowed profitable operation. BA told the city that it would keep service if the airport authority were to pay the lost cargo revenue. When San Diego balked, BA went away. Miramar and/or the 787 will change that.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
radelow
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:33 am

I heard a different story. What I was told was that BA was filling Economy regularly but they just didn't have enough Business/First passengers to make it profitable.

Why not bring back the LHR>PHX>SAN routing??? I sure miss the easy connection.  Sad
 
N1120A
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:36 am

Quoting Radelow (Reply 7):
I heard a different story. What I was told was that BA was filling Economy regularly but they just didn't have enough Business/First passengers to make it profitable.

First and Club were perfectly acceptable. The problem was cargo specifically.

Quoting Radelow (Reply 7):
Why not bring back the LHR>PHX>SAN routing??? I sure miss the easy connection.

Because BA fills a 744 on the PHX route (as they likely could on the SAN route if they could fly it out full) and can't carry local passengers.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
BALAX
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:38 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 3):
As others have said, BA found it didn't have the right passenger mix and the smallest aircraft it could use effectively was the 777. Maybe with the advent of the 787, and if BA buys that aircraft, BA would return. Also, I believe that under Bermuda II BA would have to restart non-stop service from LGW, as it was only able to switch service to LHR because it was firstly the sole carrier on the route, and secondly passenger numbers had reached a certain thresh hold

BA operates B767-300ER's which would be an option for SAN. Remember AA operated AA136/137 LAX-LHR-LAX with a B767-300ER for years before switching to a 777. And even with the B767 AA136/137 was one of the most profitable flights for the carrier.
 
briguy1974
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:41 am

seems San Jose and San Diego will always lose out the LAX and SFO....by the way they are both bigger than San Fransisco..
 
N1120A
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting BALAX (Reply 9):
BA operates B767-300ER's which would be an option for SAN.

No it isn't. The runway is too short for it.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
DLSLC
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:56 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
No it isn't. The runway is too short for it.

Am I misunderstanding something here? You are saying the runway is too short for a 767-300ER, but at one time they took 747's and 777's in there? Aren't those a lot heavier and don't those take a lot longer runway to get off the ground?

I am still amazed they got that 772 in there, the aerial photos of SAN when the 772 was in there made it look way too big for the airport! Good days though.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 8):
First and Club were perfectly acceptable. The problem was cargo specifically.

Actually there was an issue with premium demand in SAN.
If you think back, you might remember the last nonstop 777 service that BA had on the route were with higher dentsity 3 class 777s, not the 4 class versions with F class.
As far as cargo, BA-LAX actually trucked a few pallets of cargo down to San Diego, so the bellies were not empty as you imply.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
dutchjet
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting DLSLC (Reply 12):
You are saying the runway is too short for a 767-300ER,

Too short for a fully loaded 763ER to take off and fly nonstop all the way to London....thats the issue. BA flew the 744 from SAN to PHX, a very short hop, which is a different situation.
 
DLSLC
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:07 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 14):
Too short for a fully loaded 763ER to take off and fly nonstop all the way to London....thats the issue. BA flew the 744 from SAN to PHX, a very short hop, which is a different situation.

Oh okay, sorry I misread that. What about the 777, didn't that go non-stop all the way across the pond?
 
dutchjet
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:11 am

Quoting DLSLC (Reply 15):
What about the 777, didn't that go non-stop all the way across the pond?

Yes, the 777 is one hell of an airplane.......but, as pointed out above, the 777 operated with weight restrictions and could not carry any cargo....such restriction cut into profits and therefore the flight was cut.
 
DLSLC
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:24 am

Okay, gotcha. Thanks for the corrections Dutchjet, I guess I didn't read careful enough, sorry for the stupid questions, I should have looked closer! Thanks for the info though.
Regards,
Devin B.
 
rwsea
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:31 am

Quoting Briguy1974 (Reply 10):
seems San Jose and San Diego will always lose out the LAX and SFO....by the way they are both bigger than San Fransisco..

The cities, yes, they are bigger than SFO. The metro areas (the metric that actually matters) are both much smaller than SFO (although San Jose could be considered the same metro area as SFO).
 
planesarecool
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:49 am

Economy was regularly full on the route. I flew it there and back once and it was near enough full, and my friend (who now lives out there) flew it a lot of the time and said that it was usually a busy flight.

As others have stated, the main problem is the weight restrictions implemented on the flight due to the short runway, and has therefore lost out to LAX, and more extensively, China and India, where the aircraft could be used for better profitability.

Will BA ever come back to San Diego? Well if they get the new airport, it may be considered, but until then, i doubt it.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 18):
The cities, yes, they are bigger than SFO. The metro areas (the metric that actually matters) are both much smaller than SFO (although San Jose could be considered the same metro area as SFO).

SJC does indeed get "lumped" in many times within the "Bay Area".....from San Jose to SFO, its only a 34-40 mile drive....

The entire Bay Area (San Francisco, San Jose, Oakland, Santa Clara, Sunnyvale, Mountain View, Cupertino, etc.), population is almost 7 million people..which is quite a bit....!!

http://www.bayareacensus.ca.gov/
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Coronado990
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:22 am

It would be nice if VS could extend their LAS flight to SAN. Then again, didn't FirstChoice order the 787? As a leisure airline, this might be a good way of entering the SoCal with the least amount of competition. Plus easy access to cruise ships.
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:56 am

It would nice to see BA in SAN. My uncle used to fly that route when he went on business trips. Does BA still hold that authority for fifth freedom route?
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
LAXintl
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 22):
fifth freedom route?

What 5th freedom route? BA has no US 5th freedom rights.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
socal
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:00 pm

Can't BA use their 767-300ER for a SAN-LHR route?
I Love HNL.............
 
dutchjet
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting Socal (Reply 24):
Can't BA use their 767-300ER for a SAN-LHR route?



Quoting N1120A (Reply 11):
No it isn't. The runway is too short for it.



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 14):
Too short for a fully loaded 763ER to take off and fly nonstop all the way to London....thats the issue. BA flew the 744 from SAN to PHX, a very short hop, which is a different situation.

 airplane 
 
Coronado990
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:46 am

Quoting Socal (Reply 24):
Can't BA use their 767-300ER for a SAN-LHR route?

Sure, they can use it westbound LHR-SAN no problem. SAN-LHR is another story as Pt Loma creates a raising terrain issue and the 767-300ER would have a tough time clearing it in the event of an engine failure with a full load of fuel.

My suggestion is that the SD County RAA get together with LAWA in truly supporting an LAX alternative by enticing BA to fly a LHR-SAN-ONT-LHR route.

The flight could fly non-stop into San Diego, go thru customs, and then do the short hop up to ONT for fuel, cargo and maybe a handful of passengers and take advantage of ONT's longer runways for the flight back to Britain.

One advantage with the 767-300ER is that the wings are not as large as the 777 and it does not have to cross the runway twice at SAN to get from the terminal to the end of the runway because of taxiway limitations on the south side along the old Ryan buildings. That took us 20 minutes once. You could almost be up in ONT by that time.

I think this would be a good way of testing the waters at ONT to see if there is any international patronage there.
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
dutchjet
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 26):
My suggestion is that the SD County RAA get together with LAWA in truly supporting an LAX alternative by enticing BA to fly a LHR-SAN-ONT-LHR route

Its a nice idea....but in real life, its not going to work out, aside from the extra costs associated with putting the plane down at ONT, these types of arrangements simply do not appeal to pax. Pax will have to make a stop enroute, even if its at nearby ONT, and all of advantages of BA offering nonstop service are gone. There are many alternatives getting from SAN to London with onestop....BA needs to do it nonstop. Also consider that many pax continue on from London to other destinations with connecting flights....SAN to Paris, or Rome, or the Gulf is now two stops away, not appealing to pax, especially the high yeild pax that matter the most.

Unless and until BA can fly SAN-London nonstop yearround with an unresticted airplane, we probably will not see the route return.....either it will be with a new airplane (we are all talking 787, are we sure that this is possible with the 787?) or an improved airport at SAN.
 
BA787
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:06 am

Me hope BA orders the 787. I 'me guessing im not alone

Tom  Big grin
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting BA787 (Reply 28):
Me hope BA orders the 787. I 'me guessing im not alone

Even with a B787 order there is still the Heathrow slot situation to deal with. Granted, BA owns quite a few of them, but there is a limit to how many domestic and European slots it can swap for more longhaul services without jeopardizing the global aspect of its operation. As such, an order for 20 or so B787 is not necessarily the grand solution it seems to be thought of in here.

Besides that, who says that, in the long list of longhaul destinations BA has abandoned over the past decade, San Diego comes even close to the top of the list of priorities, if such a list even exists in the first place. I can think of a couple of others that might warrant reconsidering, such as Kuala Lumpur, Seoul, Osaka or Santiago de Chile.

The B787 and others will likely open a new era of nonstop services for citypairs where such services have until now not been feasible, but the likes of BA at Heathrow or LH at Frankfurt will inevitably face capacity related restrictions at their home turf encumbering potential growth in such secondary markets. As such, I doubt very much whether we'll ever witness services like Heathrow to San Diego, Durban or other secondary longhaul markets take shape.
 
N1120A
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 18):
The cities, yes, they are bigger than SFO. The metro areas (the metric that actually matters) are both much smaller than SFO (although San Jose could be considered the same metro area as SFO).

Not including San Jose in an overall bay area metro is at least as stupid as not including Ventura, San Bernardino and Riverside counties in an overall Los Angeles metro.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 13):
As far as cargo, BA-LAX actually trucked a few pallets of cargo down to San Diego, so the bellies were not empty as you imply.

Maybe on days they had impossible to beat conditions, but BA publically stated that cargo was the problem and that they would have kept the route if subsidized on the cargo revenues

Quoting DLSLC (Reply 12):
Am I misunderstanding something here? You are saying the runway is too short for a 767-300ER, but at one time they took 747's and 777's in there? Aren't those a lot heavier and don't those take a lot longer runway to get off the ground?

From SAN, 747s flew to PHX or LAX. Do you realize how light that would make them? You have to factor in how close the plane is to MTOW and how that relates to the aircraft's take off performance. A 772ER is a significantly longer range aircraft than a 763ER (to the tune of 2100nm in some cases) and doesn't need to carry anywhere near a full fuel load to make West Coast-London flights. On the other hand, when AA was operating 763ERs on LAX-CDG, there were days they were taking weight restrictions, even off of LAX's 12,000 feet with no obstructions.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
LAXintl
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:09 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 30):
they would have kept the route if subsidized on the cargo revenues

Also keep in mind also that the San Diego region is not a major air cargo producer on its own. So even if the runway was not an issue I would not hold my breath hoping for respectable loads to Europe from SAN.

BA-LAX as I mentioned supported the route by trucking down pallets. This is similar to what VS does with is Las Vegas flight which receives near all its cargo from LAX whom sells it with lower priority cargo as if VS had a 3rd daily LAX service.

But ultimately what kills SAN is its relative closeness to LAX with its significantly greater flight options and market size.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
san747
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 21):
It would be nice if VS could extend their LAS flight to SAN. Then again, didn't FirstChoice order the 787? As a leisure airline, this might be a good way of entering the SoCal with the least amount of competition. Plus easy access to cruise ships.

I like the idea... I've heard that the European charter carriers like MyTravel and First Choice have expressed interest in SAN, but haven't been able to fly there due to the above mentioned restrictions... Maybe the 787 will change that.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
oakjam
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:50 am

Would be nice to have more competition from more California airports to Europe. SAN-Europe would be nice, although it sucks flying there from Nor Cal cause certain airlines have monopolized the routes from OAK and SFO. Does anyone know if Aeromexico's route MEX-TIJ-NGO might impact SAN from once getting a future air carrier? Since Tijuana is nearby. Also MX was interested in a route from TIJ-Beijing a while back. Considering TIJ is so near San Diego.
 
vv701
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 23):
What 5th freedom route? BA has no US 5th freedom rights.

I had hoped that someone would argue this point. Just as UA has fifth freedom rights under Bermuda 2 to Berlin, Frankfurt, Munich and one other German city (Hannover?) from LHR and from PIK to OSL, so, I believe, BA has equally unused 5th freedom rights in the US. I believe one of these might have been to MEX but from where (MIA?) I am not sure. Anyone confirm or deny this belief?
 
tymnbalewne
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:31 am

Quoting VV701 (Reply 34):
so, I believe, BA has equally unused 5th freedom rights in the US. I believe one of these might have been to MEX but from where (MIA?) I am not sure. Anyone confirm or deny this belief?

I have a very, very vague recollection of a MEX-MSY-LON service?

C.
Dewmanair...begins with Dew
 
steeler83
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:49 am

Maybe BA, or any other airline (US) could run a SAN-PIT-LHR/LGW or SAN-PHL-LHR/LGW, but again, I'll grow hairs on my back before that happens... no... I'll grow hairs on my back, ANND DYE IT PURPLE!!!
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Will BA Ever Come Back To San Diego?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 10:33 am

Quoting TymnBalewne (Reply 35):
have a very, very vague recollection of a MEX-MSY-LON service?

You would be correct.

Mexico City - New Orleans - London, flown by BA thrice weekly in 1982 with a L1011-500.