socal
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Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:38 am

Since Southwest Airlines is a loyal 737 operator, would the 717 been good for Southwest to operate?


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roseflyer
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:49 am

While the 717 is a very efficient plane and has worked well for Airtran, I don't think it is possible that WN which has operated only 737s for the vast majority of its history to add another fleet type that has been discontinued by the manufacturer. Boeing isn't even making 717s. Where could WN get them? Also where would they fly them and what is the point? WN is a 737 airline with huge numbers of 737-700s and many more on order. Another fleet type doesn't make sense. The only changes to the WN fleet are via the codeshare with ATA.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 1):
what is the point? WN is a 737 airline with huge numbers of 737-700s and many more on order. Another fleet type doesn't make sense.

Perhaps a better question would be about WN as an entire Airbus fleet of A320s or even a few A321s since the fleet commonality would be good and what WN is after, and what they typically get in their fleet 0f 737-300s and 737-700s.
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dutchjet
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 6:54 am

In theory, the 717 could have worked very well for Southwest......for example on its high frequency intra-California routes.

BUT, Southwest's business model is based around operating just one type, and thats the 737, so Southwest probably never even gave the 717 any serious consideration. Operating only one aircraft type results in many savings for the airline and lots of flexibility; Southwest can use a 73G on several short turns and then, later in the day, fly the airplane on a cross country segment, something that would not be possible with the 717.

I heard that Southwest finds the 735s problematic (now that the 732s are retired)......the small 735 seat offers less seats than the 733 and 73G which dominate the Southwest fleet. Its all about standardization.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:09 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 3):
In theory, the 717 could have worked very well for Southwest......for example on its high frequency intra-California routes

I don't think the 717 would work in California since those are high capacity high frequency routes. The 717 has a lower capacity, so it doesn't make sense to switch from the 733s and 73Gs that fly between the Bay Area and the LA Area.

However 717s might have worked better in Texas as WN flies to some smaller markets. They operated the last 732s in Texas and now operate the lower capacity 735s there.
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dutchjet
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:14 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4):
the 717 would work in California since those are high capacity high frequency routes. The 717 has a lower capacity, so it doesn't make sense to switch from the 733s and 73Gs that fly between the Bay Area and the LA

We are gonna agree to disagree on this one!!!

If Southwest would have taken the 717s, they would have been great for the intra-California routes and the smaller capacity of the 717 may or may not have resulted in higher frequencies on the subject routes. Remember, Southwest is all about frequency, lots and lots of flights in the market....which is why their load factor is not great when compared to other US airlines. The, its possible that the lower seat count in the 717 would have worked very well for them.

At the end of the story, it really doesnt matter, does it?
 
srbmod
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:40 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 4):
I don't think the 717 would work in California since those are high capacity high frequency routes. The 717 has a lower capacity, so it doesn't make sense to switch from the 733s and 73Gs that fly between the Bay Area and the LA Area.

The 717 was designed from the outset for multiple flights a day, pretty much spending 12+ hours a day in flight, spending no more than an hour on the gorund between flights. The typical block time for a 717 flight is between 90 minutes and 2 hours, and a typical 717 will do between 6-8 legs a day, sometimes more. In some ways, the 717 would be the ideal a/c in which to operate on the BOS-LGA-DCA shuttle routes.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:47 am

Though certainly not the only reason for Southwest's sustained profitablity, their "one-type" fleet policy is a major component in their successful business plan.

Other good reasons IMHO for Southwest to "pass" on the 717:

Not likely that operating cost advantages (if any) of the 717 over the 737 types operated by WN would justify the costs of an additional type in their fleet.

Difference in seating capacity of the 717 when compared to the 733/735/73G types in WN's fleet is relatively insignificant.

With WN's growth plans calling for more non-stop flights over longer distances, the more limited range/payload capabilities of the 717 (compared to WN's 737 types) would limit its usefulness to WN.
 
vatveng
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:09 am

Hypothetical:

IF Southwest had been a DC9 operator from the beginning, instead of a 737 operator, would the 717 still be in production today? And would Long Beach be churning out the 717-300?
 
socal
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:12 am

Good Question VATVENG.......
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roseflyer
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:16 am

Quoting Vatveng (Reply 8):
IF Southwest had been a DC9 operator from the beginning, instead of a 737 operator, would the 717 still be in production today? And would Long Beach be churning out the 717-300?

I think if WN was a DC-9 operator and wanted to stay with them, then yes we would still see the 717 in production. Southwest is also one of the few airlines that have enough sway to influence Boeing's decisions as far as how planes are decided and what features they offer. I'm sure WN will have a big influence on the next generation of narrowbodies that Boeing offers just like how United had a very very large influence on the 777 development.
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bond007
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:19 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
At the end of the story, it really doesnt matter, does it?

Well, I think it does. Sure WN likes lots of flights, but there's a compromise to be made between fewer flights with larger aircraft, and more flights with smaller aircraft. I'm assuming that total costs (not just CASM) are cheaper for larger aircraft/less frequency, and the B737 fits that equation for WN.

After all, if it was simply less seats, more frequency, WN would be flying King Airs every 2 minutes from A to B.


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PolymerPlane
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:21 am

717 would be a hard push on trans con flight. BWI-LAX is 2020NM, while the range of the HGW 717 is only 2060NM.

Cheers,
PP
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socal
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:40 am

Who has the longest flight using a 717?
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socalfive
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:41 am

Quoting Socal (Thread starter):
Since Southwest Airlines is a loyal 737 operator, would the 717 been good for Southwest to operate?

You answered your own question
 
dutchjet
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:42 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 11):
After all, if it was simply less seats, more frequency, WN would be flying King Airs every 2 minutes from A to B.

Thanks for the logic.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 11):
Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 5):
At the end of the story, it really doesnt matter, does it?



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 11):
Well, I think it does

My point was that......being that WN is a dedicated 737 operator, and being that the 717 is out of production, this entire discussion is hypothetcial....Would the 717 been good for WN? It really does not matter, does it?
 
quickmover
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:46 am

Quoting Socal (Reply 13):
Who has the longest flight using a 717?

Probably a midwest air route with fewer passengers on board. MKE-LAX?
 
roseflyer
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:02 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 12):
717 would be a hard push on trans con flight. BWI-LAX is 2020NM, while the range of the HGW 717 is only 2060NM.

I don't think there would be any intention to operate 717s on longer flights. They have limited range. But the lower range means that the planes are lighter and therefore more efficient on short flights. An airline that wants to operate transcon flights would need to have a dual fleet like Airtran does with both 717s and 737s.
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bond007
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:03 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 15):
My point was that......being that WN is a dedicated 737 operator, and being that the 717 is out of production, this entire discussion is hypothetcial....Would the 717 been good for WN? It really does not matter, does it?

No. I agree  Smile


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BWI757
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:08 am

WN DID consider the 717. However there was a huge internal debate becasue no one could agree if the livery would look good on the planes or not.

BWI757
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socal
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:11 am

The Livery!!!!!......LOL
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mush
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:13 am

Quoting Vatveng (Reply 8):
IF Southwest had been a DC9 operator from the beginning, instead of a 737 operator, would the 717 still be in production today? And would Long Beach be churning out the 717-300?



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 10):
I think if WN was a DC-9 operator and wanted to stay with them, then yes we would still see the 717 in production.

I think that if Southwest was a loyal DC-9 operator you would see the MD-95 still being produced in Long Beach. But, as we all know McD is no more and their great narrowbody product line has produced the last copy...

Mush
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thering
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:51 am

The 737-600 would have been much better for WN. Althoug, I think it's even better to operate only 737-700 than a mix of 737-600 and -700.
They should think of getting the 737-800 and the 737-900ER, this would be good for them.
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socal
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:54 am

Hmm..... I think the 737-900ER would be best...
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:58 am

Quoting Thering (Reply 22):
They should think of getting the 737-800 and the 737-900ER, this would be good for them.

It appears that WN was very close to doing so in 2004. When U.S. was teetering on the brink of liquidation, there was speculation that WN would want to quickly add capacity to pick-up remains of their networks. Hence, slightly larger units of capacity would be desireable.

This was revisited when TZ was looking to off-load some of its 738, but it's now been all but ruled out.
 
flinhion757
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:46 pm

Why, they don't need any more commuter air craft. I thought maybe 738 or A319. Possibly 752 (1or2)
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iluv727s
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:32 pm

If the 717 had been around back then and selected by WN for their operation, we could pontificate the this question in reverse... would the 737 have been good for Southwest?

BRING BACK THE 727!

[Edited 2006-07-10 06:38:02]
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PHLBOS
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:25 pm

Quoting Socal (Reply 13):
Who has the longest flight using a 717?

Didn't FL briefly use 717s on their ATL-DEN routes? If so (not sure whether they still do), that would probably be the longest passenger route.

Are HA's mainland/island delivery flights (w/supplemental fuel tanks) the longest 717 flights?

Quoting Vatveng (Reply 8):
Hypothetical:

IF Southwest had been a DC9 operator from the beginning, instead of a 737 operator, would the 717 still be in production today?

Beat me to the punch on that question.
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DAYflyer
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:41 pm

Nah. Too small (pax count) and adds another type to the fleet. Lots of costs there.
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EMBQA
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:14 pm

Quoting Socal (Thread starter):
Since Southwest Airlines is a loyal 737 operator, would the 717 been good for Southwest to operate?

Why are so many A.neters always trying to change the wheel...? Southwest runs a very-very efficient airline. One of the basics of that plan is a simple one... operate one fleet type...!! It saves them billions. That is why you will never-ever see WN add a new fleet type unless its a 100% across the board change.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
united319
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:17 pm

I dont think that WN would have been able to do much with the 717 as they have been able to do with the 737-700, they use that plane on both short and longer routes, they wouldnt be able to do that with the 717, they may have been able to get it as far as LAX-BNA and thats pushing it.
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flymli
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:26 pm

Read Michael Boyd's weekly column today at www.aviationplanning.com. He discusses the changes that might influence SW in the future.
 
YX717fan
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:20 am

Quoting Quickmover (Reply 16):
Quoting Socal (Reply 13):
Who has the longest flight using a 717?

Probably a midwest air route with fewer passengers on board. MKE-LAX?

Sorry, Midwest uses MD-80s for the MKE-LAX flights.
Keep Midwest my Midwest
 
cloudy
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:28 am

Southwest thinks long term. Keep in mind that Boeing may launch an all-new narrowbody within 5 years or so - search for Y1 for what little details we know. Even supposing Southwest wants a different aircraft size (I believe they will), they would not want to buy a large fleet that would soon be made obsolete by 7E7 technology. That is why I would think that the Embraers are out, as are any now in production SMALLER aircraft types.

Even if a future-proof 100 seater were available NOW I doubt they would fly it themselves. They would more likely codeshare with someone. Or they could drop the 10-11 flight per day minimum per new market, and connect new small cities to their "hubs" with just a few daily 737-700 flights. Imagine 2 flights a day from, say, Wichita to Chicago or Houston, for example.

If I was informed that Southwest was buying something other than a 737 I would bet on the 7E7 itself. Maybe the -8 or -3 to start. These are the reasons.
.....Most importantly, it will not be obsolete anytime soon. Just about any other new aircraft purchase in the next few years (with the exception of the A350/370) faces a high risk of obsolescence.
.....It would allow a large cost-per-seat-mile advantage on long range, high volume, low yield routes. Southwest has a lot of these now, to places like Florida and Las Vegas. On these routes frequency is not as important, but cost is.
.....The few legacy airline 787's will be tied up in international routes. Other LCC's such as Jet Blue will not be able to afford them in large numbers, on good terms. This could lead to a significant competitive advantage on both the cost and revenue side.
.....Primaris's early slots are now available. A second line may be started. They could get them sooner than expected.
.....A minor point - a Southwest 787 would have more or less the same capacity as 2
737-700's. This may make it a little easier to do the scheduling, etc.

But....all things considered.....Southwest will probably stick to the -700 untill Boeing comes up with a narrowbody line. Then they will order different sized versions of the plane. Hub invasions, the ATA codeshare, and a few new traditional Southwest markets will sustain their expansion until then. Its exciting to consider other options, but that's the safe way to bet.
 
rumorboy
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:17 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 27):
Didn't FL briefly use 717s on their ATL-DEN routes? If so (not sure whether they still do), that would probably be the longest passenger route.

Actually Airtran still uses the 717 to DEN but the longest route the 717 serves is MCO-MSP, thats actually longer than ATL-DEN route.
 
srbmod
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 27):

Didn't FL briefly use 717s on their ATL-DEN routes? If so (not sure whether they still do), that would probably be the longest passenger route.

Prior to getting the 73Gs, yes.

Quoting Rumorboy (Reply 34):
Actually Airtran still uses the 717 to DEN but the longest route the 717 serves is MCO-MSP, thats actually longer than ATL-DEN route.

The ATL-DEN flights are now all 73G.

Quoting Socal (Reply 13):
Who has the longest flight using a 717?

YX does, MCI-LAX. 1363 miles. Their MCI-SAN flight comes in second at 1333 miles. FL's MSP-MCO comes in third at 1310 miles. ATL-DEN, BTW, is 1199 miles.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:16 am

Quoting Iluv727s (Reply 26):
If the 717 had been around back then and selected by WN for their operation, we could pontificate the this question in reverse... would the 737 have been good for Southwest?

I'm not sure what you are referring to as "back then". If you are referring to when WN was just starting operations, the DC-9-30 was in production then. The DC-9-30 is essentially the same size and has similar range and capabilities to the 717 although the 717 is three decades newer and much more efficient.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
sllevin
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:34 am

Southwest wasn't interested in the 717 because the cost per seat mile is 20% higher than the 737. The reason that Airtran has them and 'does well' is because they bought them at a price below what it cost to build the planes (but Boeing was committed to building 150 airframes through commitments to suppliers). So for Airtran, the low cost offset the higher operating costs.

However, no one was willing to purchase the planes at a price that would make money for Boeing because the operating costs were sky-high. Even the 737-600 beats it out, and the 736 also offers the option of long/thin routes, which the 717 does not.

In theory, the 717 could have been great. In reality, it was old technology and never performed well enough to survive.

Steve
 
ScottB
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 37):
Southwest wasn't interested in the 717 because the cost per seat mile is 20% higher than the 737. The reason that Airtran has them and 'does well' is because they bought them at a price below what it cost to build the planes

Agreed. If memory serves, Joe Leonard said that AirTran was delighted with the 737-700 because they were getting 20 extra seats to sell per flight with essentially the same block-hour costs. The 73G also offers much more flexibility since it's an excellent performer on 1-hour hops and transcons.

For Southwest, even if the seat-mile costs were lower, the 717 just doesn't offer capacity that's different enough from the 73G to justify the added cost of the additional fleet type. It should be very telling that Southwest chose to buy only 25 737-500's while picking up nearly 200 737-300's; the capacity of the 735 is very close to the 717-200. If they had to do it all again, you'd probably not have seen the -500's ordered.
 
vatveng
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:05 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 12):
717 would be a hard push on trans con flight. BWI-LAX is 2020NM, while the range of the HGW 717 is only 2060NM.

The planned-but-never-built 717-300 would have solved that problem.
 
thering
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:16 am

The 717-200 has the same problem of the 737-600, there are batter choices.
A 737-700 carries more pax than a -600 or a 717 and has almost the same flying costs, this make the -700 more profitable!
That can be just noticed by the bad sales of the -600 and the 717.
Still don't know why SAS likes the -600 so much.
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steeler83
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RE: Would The 717 Been Good For Southwest?

Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:28 am

Quoting Iluv727s (Reply 26):
BRING BACK THE 727!

Yeah, I definitely hear ya on that one!!! I think that has to be my favorite T-tail aircraft...

Quoting Socal (Reply 20):
The Livery!!!!!......LOL

Yeah, tell me about it. That is one really silly reason to not choose an aircraft, or one aircraft over another...

[Edited 2006-07-11 01:29:38]
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.

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