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PanAm_DC10
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ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:02 pm

Tokyo, Japan, July 12, 2006 - (JCN Newswire) - The ANA Board of Directors today decided that the company will sell six aircraft from its fleet of 23 Boeing 747-400 jumbo jets to Avion Aircraft Trading of Iceland commencing next year. This aircraft is the largest of the ANA fleet and is used on both domestic and international routes, carrying up to 569 passengers in a domestic configuration. It entered service with ANA in 1990.

ANA's current mid-term corporate strategy for the fiscal years 2006 - 2009 (April 1, 2006 - March 31, 2010) encompasses the introduction of newer and more economical aircraft, such as the 737-700 series and 787, to secure better cost performance and raise ANA's competitive edge. The retirement of the 747-400 fleet is also part of the strategy, and will commence from 2007 at the rate of two aircraft per year.


The first 6 to go will be as follows;

JA8094
JA402A
JA8095
JA401A
JA8096
JA8097

Seems like they are going the same way as JAL and intend to operate smaller aircraft. Interesting they have not signed up for the 747BCF program and have instead opted for the 767BCF which they recently launched.

[Source: http://www.ana.co.jp/eng ]

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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centrair
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:51 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
Seems like they are going the same way as JAL and intend to operate smaller aircraft. Interesting they have not signed up for the 747BCF program and have instead opted for the 767BCF which they recently launched.

I think it is actually the other way around. NH started first and JL followed. NH stated that they want to go with smaller aircraft. Much of the Asian regional flights are flown with 737s and 767s now. The largest aircraft in NH's fleet will be the 777-300 in short time. Much of the fleet will be medium sized and be able to do capacity and frequency in the region as well as on long-haul. It will be exciting.

Future NH fleet will be
737-700ER
737-800
737-900 (I think)
787-3
787-8
777-200ER
777-200
777-300
777-300ER

Three families.
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mbj2000
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:06 pm

maybe we'll see ANA ordering a bunch of A380 at Farnborough?!

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cloudyapple
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:15 pm

I'm surprised ANA is retiring B744s so soon. Japanese carriers tend to fly their aircraft to death. Both JAL and ANA have still got B741SRs, B742s for example.

Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 2):
maybe we'll see ANA ordering a bunch of A380 at Farnborough?!

Fat chance.
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Wed Jul 12, 2006 11:53 pm

ANA cannot ignore the economics and the saving it can attain by getting rid of the a relatively expensive B744s that are no longer new. Sure, ANA may lose about 40 economy class seats by downgrading the cities that are served by B744 to B773 for both domestic and international but I hear the cargo capacity on the B773 are respectable. The passenger capacity on B773 is plenty for the most of the cities ANA currently serve. In domestic configuration, the B773 carries over 500 passengers. The cost saving of streamlining the fleet with efficient common aircraft is just enormous. JAL will follow the same trend.

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airfrnt
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:10 am

Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 2):
maybe we'll see ANA ordering a bunch of A380 at Farnborough?!

Given that Airbus directly targeted the Japanese carriers as being prime customers for the A380, this has to be a bitter moment for them.
 
pavlin
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:15 am

[quote=Cloudyapple,reply=3]Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 2):
maybe we'll see ANA ordering a bunch of A380 at Farnborough?!

Fat chance.[/quote

The A380 for domestic use with 853 passenger could be a hit.
 
boeingfever777
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
Interesting they have not signed up for the 747BCF program and have instead opted for the 767BCF which they recently launched.

Could this be because they order the (7) 744F's and (8) 748F's 8F back in 05 and 2006 and are not needing BCF kits on these older 747s?

Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 2):
maybe we'll see ANA ordering a bunch of A380 at Farnborough?!

Since their fleet plans call for so many long haul airbus planes i'm sure they will...

Wonders if NH is getting ready for the purchase of the 748 passanger and more 773ERs?
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:47 am

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 7):
Wonders if NH is getting ready for the purchase of the 748 passanger and more 773ERs?

More 773ERs, definitely. 748s, no, not when they are eliminating the 744 for fleet simplification purposes.

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 6):
The A380 for domestic use with 853 passenger could be a hit.

And the landing fees would be an even bigger hit  Wink .
 
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:59 am

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 7):
Could this be because they order the (7) 744F's and (8) 748F's 8F back in 05 and 2006 and are not needing BCF kits on these older 747s?

You're confusing ANA with NCA. NCA is a cargo airline independent from ANA, ANA's cargo division is called ANA Cargo and only operates the 767F.
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:06 am

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 6):
The A380 for domestic use with 853 passenger could be a hit.

The fact that Japan, Inc. is using 777-300s in domestic configuration shows that they don't necessarily think they need it.
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:07 am

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 3):
I'm surprised ANA is retiring B744s so soon. Japanese carriers tend to fly their aircraft to death. Both JAL and ANA have still got B741SRs, B742s for example.

No, they are gone.

Now they are getting rid of the oldest 744s, which will be approaching 20 years.
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Stitch
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:20 am

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 6):
The A380 for domestic use with 853 passenger could be a hit.

It is looking like NH and JL just don't need that kind of capacity anymore. Between the expansion of the shinkansen train system and the sheer amount of time it would take to load and unload an 853-seat A380, it's probably faste to "next time, take the train".  Smile
 
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
No, they are gone.

Not quite yet. Still seeing JAL 200s in Hong Kong often.

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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:22 am

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 3):
Both JAL and ANA have still got B741SRs, B742s for example.

Incorrect. Only JAL currently operate any of the 747 Classics. ANA retired their last -100SR earlier on this year.

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boeingfever777
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting Manni (Reply 9):
You're confusing ANA with NCA. NCA is a cargo airline independent from ANA, ANA's cargo division is called ANA Cargo and only operates the 767F.

KZ and NH are not own by the same party? If not then NH's cargo fleet is small.
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cloudyapple
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:31 am

Quoting Titch (Reply 14):

My point was they fly their aeroplanes to death. If 100s are not active now they have been until recently. 200s are definitely still around.

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 15):
KZ and NH are not own by the same party?

ANA sold its stake to Nippon Yusen.
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:52 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Thread starter):
carrying up to 569 passengers in a domestic configuration

Does anyone know what the maximum number of passangers (evacuation test, etc) the 744 was certified to? How about the 748 target?

Thanks.
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Titch
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 16):
My point was they fly their aeroplanes to death. If 100s are not active now they have been until recently. 200s are definitely still around.

Fair enough - point taken.

And, yes, you're right - the -200's are still around, but only with JAL. ANA do not have any classics left in the fleet. That's the point I was making.  Wink

Cheers,
Titch
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 8):
no, not when they are eliminating the 744 for fleet simplification purposes.

The 748 has the same basic engine as the 787, maybe that is simple enough.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
Now they are getting rid of the oldest 744s, which will be approaching 20 years.

20 years is a long time for a plane, makes perfect sense. But they still have decent resale value I am sure, maybe that is a consideration.
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da man
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 5:32 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 19):
But they still have decent resale value I am sure, maybe that is a consideration.

Also, with the A380 delivery delays, they will be very much in demand with the airlines that have A380s on order such as EK, QF, etc.
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:28 am

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 15):
KZ and NH are not own by the same party? If not then NH's cargo fleet is small

Well, BoeingFever777. In the beginning, NCA was invested heavily upon by NH. But it was never completely owned by NH. But NH did a lot of investment by giving them their retired classic jumbos, with the pilots flying them. Now, NCA is trying to become an independent company and are trying to build their own hangar at NRT.

NH indeed has a very small cargo fleet, but I think you can see it expand shortly.

BTW, there was a special corner for KZ in the aviation magazine of Japan this week. Its interesting. They are acquiring so many 747-400 and of course the B747-800. Once they do that, their fleet would be on average, 6 years!!! And in contrary to things that I've read on other forums, KZ wants to eliminate stop-overs in ANC to Europe (at least). They think that it would save money. On the other hand, I've read that the ANC stop makes cargo very profitable. Is it only me that's confused?
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:44 am

Don't forget the MX cost reduction from going from 4 engines to 2 very reliable GE 90's.
 
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 8:47 am

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 15):
KZ and NH are not own by the same party

That's right, as explained by others NH sold their equity in KZ.

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 15):
If not then NH's cargo fleet is small.

True which would explain why NH recently launched the 767BCF program. As 787s come online they should convert some of their 767BCF options into firm conversions. Interestingly they have recently set up a joint cargo venture with Japan Post, amongst others, I feel that they may need more than just converted 767s to fullfill this requirement over the long term. Just a thought.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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boeingfever777
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:08 am

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 23):
That's right, as explained by others NH sold their equity in KZ.

For what reasoning? They sold now they want to grow? Does not make business sense to me. If NH doesn't convert to the 767BCF would they look at ordering the 748F or 772F?

Thanks for the explaining all.
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Tom12
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:16 am

Quoting MBJ2000 (Reply 2):
maybe we'll see ANA ordering a bunch of A380 at Farnborough?!

I read in the wikipedia that ANA were set to become an all Boeing carrier.

Why are they getting rid of the 744's when they still have that old SR??
Or do they still have the SR??


Tom
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MCOflyer
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:16 am

I agree with BoeingFeaver777, they need more than the 767BCF. If ANY GE 763ER comes onto the market, NH will pick it up in a heart beat. Did UPS dump its 767F? Those are canidates as well as DL 763D conversions.

Intrestingly, when AC starts to recieve the 787, the 763ER will be snatched up by NH. Where are they getting their 763BCF. It would sense to order newly built a/c.

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TL925
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:17 am

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 24):
Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 23):
That's right, as explained by others NH sold their equity in KZ.


For what reasoning? They sold now they want to grow? Does not make business sense to me. If NH doesn't convert to the 767BCF would they look at ordering the 748F or 772F?

Thanks for the explaining all.

NCA was originally a venture b/w several shipping companies and ANA, though ANA sold out their stake last year.I believe that ANA wanted to focus their freight operations on belly cargo rather than pure freight operations.
 
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:22 am

JAL's B 747-400s will probably stay for a long time. And I think JAL will order the B 747-8 which is needed for many of their routes.

ANA might order some B 747-8 too. Not sure. If the operating cost is lower I don't see why they won't order any....
 
boeingfever777
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:29 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 26):
Intrestingly, when AC starts to recieve the 787, the 763ER will be snatched up by NH. Where are they getting their 763BCF. It would sense to order newly built a/c.

What about QF 763's what powerplant they using? Aren't they looking to unload some 767's when they start getting their 787's or will that be to far down the road for NH to wait?

Quoting TL925 (Reply 27):
I believe that ANA wanted to focus their freight operations on belly cargo rather than pure freight operations.

Still does not make sense to do that if they had any intentions at all to start conversion of 767BCF and start up the freighter business unless like PanAm_DC10 said and the 767BCF program change their minds.

[Edited 2006-07-13 04:34:54]
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MDorBust
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:31 am

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 6):
The A380 for domestic use with 853 passenger could be a hit.

Given the prohibition against operating four engined aircraft at most domestic Japanese airports, I highly doubt it will be procured for that purpose... unless you are going to operate it Haneda -> Chitose and back.

The 744's are being retired in favor of twins because of these very prohibitions being enacted.
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:58 pm

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 24):
For what reasoning? They sold and now they to grow?

They sold out because they were entering into a new joint venture with Japan Post, Nippon Express Co. and Mitsui O.S.K. Lines Ltd. some of whom are in direct competition with with NCA owner Nippon Yusen.

Yes, they lost their heavy lift capability when they no longer retained a stake in NCA. As an interim measure, to provide more than cargo hold capacity, they signed for the 767BCF, 3 firm plus 4 options. Once online these frames will be used for intra-Asian services and some domestic services, amongst others.

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 24):
If NH doesn't convert to the 767BCF would they look at ordering the 748F or 772F?

Too late, they have launched the conversion program and will use existing 767s from their fleet to fullfill their requirement. They will not purchase any used 767s from other carriers, at this point.

As to whether they order the 748F or 772F they have stated that they still require longe range heavy lift capability. JAL have chosen the 747BCF to meet this requirement whilst it appears that NH will order news frames for their requirement.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 26):
I agree with BoeingFeaver777, they need more than the 767BCF

Respectfully, MCOflyer, nowhere do I refute nor counter that point.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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boeingfever777
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:19 pm

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 31):
As to whether they order the 748F or 772F they have stated that they still require longe range heavy lift capability.

So they are looking to start freighter service not just domestic but on an international level then? where to the EU and or both North America?

Quoting PanAm_DC10 (Reply 31):
As to whether they order the 748F or 772F they have stated that they still require longe range heavy lift capability. JAL have chosen the 747BCF to meet this requirement whilst it appears that NH will order news frames for their requirement.

So you are saying that NH is not looking for any used 763's from AC or QF to boost freighter capacity but simply wanting to just buy new frames from Boeing? If so then what would meet their fleet requirement in your opinion... 748F or 772F?

BTW: Thx PanAm_DC10 for clearing it up and answering my questions as always. Was just mind blown why they sell their stake and no 8-12months later want a full blown freighter operations.
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RE: ANA To Commence Retirement Of 744s

Thu Jul 13, 2006 2:39 pm

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 32):
So you are saying that NH is not looking for any used 763's from AC or QF to boost freighter capacity but simply wanting to just buy new frames from Boeing?

Not quite. Most of ANAs 767s are GE powered and with 787s due to enter service in 2008 why buy used frames when they can convert frames that they already own?

Quoting BoeingFever777 (Reply 32):
If so then what would meet their fleet requirement in your opinion... 748F or 772F?

Either given their large fleet of 777s and the 77W has exceeded performance upon EIS. Either way they'll have to wait until 2009 for delivery so I would favor the 772LR or 748-F for them. In fact, if they pass on the A380F it would not surprise if they ordered both models.

Regards, PanAm_DC10
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