leelaw
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WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:58 pm

WSJ 07/14/06 (Fair Use Excerpt):

Nick Tomassetti, a retired Airbus executive, was fishing in the Gulf of Mexico in early March when he received an urgent message from his former employer: Help us save the A350.

...The veterans' mission was to act as a counterweight to the main team of Airbus engineers working on the new A350. "Our job was to look at the various configurations that Airbus had already put in the mill and come up with what we though was the best, given the limits" such as time, money and manpower, Mr. Tomassetti says...

...As engineers worked on their new designs, Airbus started sharing details with potential buyers. Customers finally started to warm. When Mr. Udvar-Hazy visited Toulouse in April, he was satisfied enough to pull out a $100 bill and scribble on it that he considered it a down-payment...

...Framed in Mr. Streiff's office is Mr. Udvar-Hazy's $100 bill. Mr. Humbert gave it to the new Airbus CEO when he took over as a reminder of the A350's importance. Mr. Humbert recalls telling his successor: "Now you have to make a billion dollars on the plane.


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB115283988341806506.html

IMO, by far the most interesting story of the pre-Farnborough media blitz.

[Edited 2006-07-14 12:09:11]

[Edited 2006-07-14 12:22:33]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
Lumberton
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:39 pm

The "C note" exchange reminds me of the scene from Godfather II. As I remember, that didn't work out too well.  duck 
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
scouseflyer
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-n

Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:46 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
...As engineers worked on their new designs, Airbus started sharing details with potential buyers. Customers finally started to warm. When Mr. Udvar-Hazy visited Toulouse in April, he was satisfied enough to pull out a $100 bill and scribble on it that he considered it a down-payment...

If that's a fact - this is BIG news as U-H was bitching a lot about the plane earlier on in the year.

It also confirms that the re-design was started a long way back if U-H approved it in April.
 
leelaw
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-n

Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:14 pm

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 2):
It also confirms that the re-design was started a long way back if U-H approved it in April.

The WSJ reports that Dr. Humbert put a team of engineers on a redesign after the QANTAS order was lost in December, but these efforts didn't kick into high-gear until the "old mandarins" were recalled in March:

...It was crisis time. Mr. Humbert decided Airbus needed to design an entirely new A350 and quietly put a team of engineers on the case. In early March, the Airbus CEO picked up the phone to several respected Airbus alumni and asked them to come back. In addition to Mr. Tomassetti, the retired executive in Florida, Mr. Humbert recalled Gerard Blanc -- a man he had beaten out for the top job at Airbus months earlier...

...The men knew they were rushing against time to ease customers' growing irritation. In March, Singapore Airlines CEO Chew Choon Seng pulled Mr. Leahy aside after an Airbus presentation to ask why the plane maker hadn't yet "gone whole hog" on a new fuselage for the A350, both men recall. Days later, before 700 people at an aviation conference in Orlando, Fla., ILFC's Mr. Udvar-Hazy said that if Airbus continued to cut corners on revisions to the A350, the plane maker would get a "silver medal instead of a gold...."

[Edited 2006-07-14 13:16:08]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
hb88
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-n

Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 3):
The WSJ reports that Dr. Humbert put a team of engineers on a redesign after the QANTAS order was lost in December, but these efforts didn't kick into high-gear until the "old mandarins" were recalled in March:

Interesting to see this finally public. It's been frustrating listening to the immense piles of ill-informed rubbish on a.net about Airbus this and A350 that.
 
katekebo
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:26 am

What is interesting that this would indicate that Airbus has been "sleeping" on the B787-competitor idea until just a couple of months ago. If they are really starting only now, as this article implies, they are at least 4 full years behind, probably much more given that Boeing has been working on some key aspects of the B787 technologies since the Sonic Cruiser.
 
hb88
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 5):
What is interesting that this would indicate that Airbus has been "sleeping" on the B787-competitor idea until just a couple of months ago. If they are really starting only now, as this article implies, they are at least 4 full years behind, probably much more given that Boeing has been working on some key aspects of the B787 technologies since the Sonic Cruiser.

Erm, but this is a given isn't it? Accepted wisdom is that Airbus pitched the original A350 against the 787 which has been shown to be not a good idea. The real point here is that most people have assumed that Airbus have been doing absolutely nothing in the last 9 mo to address the public concerns/comments about the 'original' A350.

In any case, I don't think you're correct in assuming Airbus are four years behind on the key technologies behind the 787. R&D in Airbus hasn't exactly stood still.
 
Johnny
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:38 am

@Katekebo

What is interesting that this would indicate that Airbus has been "sleeping" on the B787-competitor idea until just a couple of months ago. If they are really starting only now, as this article implies, they are at least 4 full years behind, probably much more given that Boeing has been working on some key aspects of the B787 technologies since the Sonic Cruiser.

What technologies are you referring to?
Nearly all new technologies are coming from Sub-contractors like Alenia,Mitsubishi , GE,RR and Goodrich.

Johnny  Smile
 
airmailer
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:45 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 4):
Quoting Leelaw (Reply 3):
The WSJ reports that Dr. Humbert put a team of engineers on a redesign after the QANTAS order was lost in December, but these efforts didn't kick into high-gear until the "old mandarins" were recalled in March:


Interesting to see this finally public. It's been frustrating listening to the immense piles of ill-informed rubbish on a.net about Airbus this and A350 that.

You're right HB88.

I had no idea that it was so bad at Airbus that they had to recall retired engineers to fix, I mean "save the A350" until this article was published.
 
katekebo
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:47 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 7):
Nearly all new technologies are coming from Sub-contractors like Alenia,Mitsubishi , GE,RR and Goodrich.

Even if most of the manufacturing is going to take place at sub-contractors, it doesn't mean that Boeing does not own these technologies or have long-term exclusivity rights.
 
n844aa
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:50 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 6):
The real point here is that most people have assumed that Airbus have been doing absolutely nothing in the last 9 mo to address the public concerns/comments about the 'original' A350.

Does anyone seriously think that? Or, more to my point, do you seriously think anyone thinks that?

Airbus may have a lot on their hands right now, but they're a big company with lots of smart employees. I don't think anyone thinks they've been doing "absolutely nothing" with respect to their next big project.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
airmailer
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 2:51 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 6):
The real point here is that most people have assumed that Airbus have been doing absolutely nothing in the last 9 mo to address the public concerns/comments about the 'original' A350.

Actually I thought that they had a room of engineers working on the various iterations of the A350, banging out a new version every 10 weeks or so as the top brass changed their minds.

I didn't realize that there wasn't already a large dedicated team.
I mean, they officially announced it right? So I thought that that meant engineers were working away, they just kept getting new marching orders on what to build every 3 months or so.
 
Ken777
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:13 am

Looks like Mr. Humbert was more in tune with the company's future needs than the French thought. Airbus lost a good one when they let him go.

"Recalling" some of the best retired people is a very good idea - they don't have to worry about their jobs, bosses controlling them in a limiting way, or not saying what they think because it could hurt their chances of a promotion or pay increase. I can see them having a very positive influence on the new planes.

We'll get a good peek at what they are doing next week!
 
hb88
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-n

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting AirMailer (Reply 8):
I had no idea that it was so bad at Airbus that they had to recall retired engineers to fix, I mean "save the A350" until this article was published.

Re-hiring retired aerospace engineers has nothing to do with the real or imagined state of things at Airbus in this specific context. Both Airbus and Boeing are finding it difficult to recruit engineers and both companies as I understand it are recruiting internationally and re-hiring retired aerospace engineers to consult.

I know that this has been happening in Airbus for quite some time. The experience and knowledge of the older engineers is very valuable indeed.
 
firennice
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 6):
In any case, I don't think you're correct in assuming Airbus are four years behind on the key technologies behind the 787. R&D in Airbus hasn't exactly stood still.

True but they are a few years behind not only in technogies but supply chains for the difficult to get materials for the planes. Unless they plan to avoid CFRP and Titanium and stick with the materials that make a plane heavier and less effecient. Then they are in trouble from the start.

a 2012 start of manufacture maybe 2013 would be about right.
 
474218
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:50 am

Does anyone with any knowledge of aircraft manufacturing really believe that Airbus redesigned the A350 in six months. I am sure what they have done is define a new specification for the A350 airframe and now the design work will start.
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:04 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
IMO, by far the most interesting story of the pre-Farnborough media blitz.

Agreed. Am I the only one who thinks all the "industry sources" and "confidential documents" blather is all the work of PR, pre-Farnborough?

While the rumors swirling around about Airbus and what they may or may not announce may be fun, I'm going to wait to see what actually is announced first and reserve judgement until then. What I hope Airbus will do is avoid another knee-jerk-reaction product announcement, only to have it change specifications, yet again, 6 months from now.

[Edited 2006-07-14 21:07:45]
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
astuteman
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:17 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):

Many thanks Leelaw for a most interesting link  checkmark 
A bit of "humanity" behind all the rhetoric.
These sorts of stories pass into big company folklore......

Quoting AirMailer (Reply 8):
I had no idea that it was so bad at Airbus that they had to recall retired engineers to fix

I must confess that when I read this, I thought it was an excellent move.
We have put top, experienced, retired personnel to first-class use on the Astute programme to "devils advocate" the key points of technical and contractual issues. They have been extremely effective, and we are brim-full of highly qualified engineers.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
"Recalling" some of the best retired people is a very good idea

I believe so too.

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 13):
The experience and knowledge of the older engineers is very valuable indeed.

Correct again. To my surprise, when they have returned, they are focussed, dynamic and innovative (mostly)

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
they don't have to worry about their jobs, bosses controlling them in a limiting way, or not saying what they think because it could hurt their chances of a promotion or pay increase. I can see them having a very positive influence

And I think this is the reason  checkmark .

Once again, thanks, Leelaw.

Regards
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:48 am

Quoting N844AA (Reply 10):
Does anyone seriously think that? Or, more to my point, do you seriously think anyone thinks that?

Airbus may have a lot on their hands right now, but they're a big company with lots of smart employees. I don't think anyone thinks they've been doing "absolutely nothing" with respect to their next big project.

Thank you for this. That's exactly what I was thinking. It wasn't that people thought Airbus wasn't doing anything, it's that thought Airbus kept changing what they were doing.

-Dave
-Dave
 
leelaw
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:52 am

Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 16):

If you have access to the full-text of this Page One/WSJ article (unfortunately, the WSJ's website doesn't allow free access) and read it carefully, it is clear that Dr. Humbert himself was the reporters' primary source for this article. This article appears to be an authentic first-hand account of the A350 saga from the perspective of the former CEO of Airbus. As Astuteman so aptly pointed out:

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 17):
A bit of "humanity" behind all the rhetoric.
These sorts of stories pass into big company folklore......
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
DAYflyer
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 4):
Interesting to see this finally public. It's been frustrating listening to the immense piles of ill-informed rubbish on a.net about Airbus this and A350 that.

I didnt read a lot of rubbish. It is being outsold 4 to 1 by the 787 to this point. And the potential customers called the plane a dissapointment. How is this rubbish?

If anything this article proves what was said on this forum anything but rubbish. I would say if you have to recall engineers and other professionals to revamp the program, it's in trouble.
One Nation Under God
 
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glideslope
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:26 am

Quoting HB88 (Reply 6):
In any case, I don't think you're correct in assuming Airbus are four years behind on the key technologies behind the 787. R&D in Airbus hasn't exactly stood still.

Agreed. I'd say 5 years, easy.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 21):

Agreed. I'd say 5 years, easy.

If it's so easy, then back it up...


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
flydreamliner
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:40 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 9):
Even if most of the manufacturing is going to take place at sub-contractors, it doesn't mean that Boeing does not own these technologies or have long-term exclusivity rights.

Uhh, there's the catch, Boeing set it up so they weren't going to develop composite construction through their subcontractors just to have it shared with Airbus. They don't need long term exclusivity, just long enough to keep it off any A350, so maybe what, 5 years. Also, I can't think of a single Boeing subcontractor that isn't maxed out in terms of their production capacity. Boeing will have a 500 plane backorder on the 787 before it even flies. The subcons aren't going to have ANY extra capacity. Airbus is going to need to develop their own stuff and their own subcon network on this, and that may take them a little time. Boeing has been working on the composite technology in 787 sinces the mid-late 90s.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
saturn5
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:51 am

Quoting Johnny (Reply 7):
Nearly all new technologies are coming from Sub-contractors like Alenia,Mitsubishi , GE,RR and Goodrich.

You got this one completely wrong. Boeing must very well understand a technology before they decide to use it. A sub may actually do the parts since Boeing may decide that they are better off (financially or otherwise) to outsource it. Using your logic one could argue that Airbus is also using technologies developed by others.

[Edited 2006-07-15 00:02:23]
 
jacobin777
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
Looks like Mr. Humbert was more in tune with the company's future needs than the French thought. Airbus lost a good one when they let him go.

That's what I've been saying all along...he was good for Airbus and its a blow for Airbus to lose such a brilliant, "down-to-earth" person.... Sad
"Up the Irons!"
 
redflyer
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:30 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 25):
he was good for Airbus and its a blow for Airbus to lose such a brilliant, "down-to-earth" person

I agree. He was good for Airbus and down-to-earth because he was an engineer -- a German one at that, which made him all the better. It sounds like the redesign was started behind closed doors by Humbert in an effort to save time once the redesign was given the official go-ahead -- a point after which Airbus would have come to the inevitable realization that the old 350 wasn't going to make too many inroads against the 787. Unfortunately, it seems like U-H and Chew's public comments created a fly in the ointment. Perhaps Humbert's plan all along was to spring a redesigned 350 at Farnborough?
My other home is a Piper Cherokee 180C
 
sonic67
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:33 am

I was able to obtain vidio of a secret redesighn meeting of one of the Airbus desighn labs outside Toulouse.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5140493079085653369&q=787

What is Glare?  Silly

[Edited 2006-07-15 03:39:21]
 
7cubed
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:31 am

Quoting Sonic67 (Reply 27):
What is Glare?

glass reinforced fibre metal laminate - layers of metal (usually aluminium) interspersed with layers of glass-fibre "pre-preg", bonded together with a matrix such as epoxy.

Good job on the video, i'm still laughing!  Smile
joe
 
elvis777
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-n

Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:43 pm

Hi Planehunter,

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 22):
If it's so easy, then back it up...


PH

I think if you speak to rheinbote, a fellow German, he might add to the discussion and clear things up a bit.

Regards

Elvis777
Leper,Unevolved, Misplaced and Unrepentant SportsFanatic and a ZOMBIE as well
 
hb88
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:21 pm

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 20):
I didnt read a lot of rubbish. It is being outsold 4 to 1 by the 787 to this point. And the potential customers called the plane a dissapointment. How is this rubbish?

If anything this article proves what was said on this forum anything but rubbish. I would say if you have to recall engineers and other professionals to revamp the program, it's in trouble.

No. I am referring to the numerous opinions being canvassed, by people who were wholly ignorant of the actual situation, that Airbus was doing absolutely nothing to address or consider the initial reaction to the A350. Whereas redesign considerations started as soon as it became apparent how the aircraft was being received. There was endless discussion about how this lack of action was typical of the arrogance etc etc of Airbus. It was simply ill-informed rubbish and ignorant of what was actually going on.

See the discussion elsewhere in this thread regarding re-hiring retired engineers to correct your misunderstanding on this particular point.
 
sonic67
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:17 am

Quoting 7cubed (Reply 28):
glass reinforced fibre metal laminate - layers of metal (usually aluminium) interspersed with layers of glass-fibre "pre-preg", bonded together with a matrix such as epoxy.

Thanks for the explantion. I work in the phone industry and glare means call collision's I knew it could not be that.

 bigthumbsup 
 
BoomBoom
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-n

Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:52 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 30):
No. I am referring to the numerous opinions being canvassed, by people who were wholly ignorant of the actual situation, that Airbus was doing absolutely nothing to address or consider the initial reaction to the A350.

These are "straw man" arguments. Link to some specific quotes. If they are "numerous" you should have no problem citing some specifics.

Yeah, there's a lot of ignorance on a.net (just look at the last sentence of Reply #7). That's what you get when you have a public forum.

There's also a lot of knowledge and insight.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
hb88
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-n

Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:28 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 32):
Quoting Hb88 (Reply 30):
No. I am referring to the numerous opinions being canvassed, by people who were wholly ignorant of the actual situation, that Airbus was doing absolutely nothing to address or consider the initial reaction to the A350.

"These are "straw man" arguments. Link to some specific quotes. If they are "numerous" you should have no problem citing some specifics."

You can't be serious. Are you seriously stating that many people on a.net weren't holding forth that Airbus was sitting on its hands and ignoring the public comments about the A350s deficiences? Plug in some keywords mate and read the blather...
RE: Forgeard And Humbert Resign, Airbus Is Freed! (by N328KF Jul 3 2006 in Civil Aviation)#ID2859105 RE: New Blow To Airbus As A350 Faces Delay (by DL021 Jul 7 2006 in Civil Aviation)#ID2865399
etc etc...

It could go on. IMO in general it represents a real bias and antipathy towards Airbus on a.net at the moment. I've read numerous justifications that Airbus proponents behaved the same way when Boeing was going through difficulties and Airbus was slaying them in terms of orders - which is frankly horseshit, but there it is.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 33):
You can't be serious.

I didn't ask you to point to threads, I asked you for specific instances where people said "that Airbus was doing absolutely nothing to address or consider the initial reaction to the A350."

You said they are numerous, so it shouldn't be too difficult to quote some.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
hb88
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:02 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 34):
Quoting Hb88 (Reply 33):
You can't be serious.

I didn't ask you to point to threads, I asked you for specific instances where people said "that Airbus was doing absolutely nothing to address or consider the initial reaction to the A350."

You said they are numerous, so it shouldn't be too difficult to quote some.



Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 34):
Quoting Hb88 (Reply 33):
You can't be serious.

I didn't ask you to point to threads, I asked you for specific instances where people said "that Airbus was doing absolutely nothing to address or consider the initial reaction to the A350."

You said they are numerous, so it shouldn't be too difficult to quote some.

Read the discussions. You'll see what I was getting at. I'm still surprised anyone would challenge a statement that many claimed Airbus was ignoring customer complaints. It was the dominant A350 topic for quite a while.

I guess the corollary to this would be that you believe that Airbus *was* paying attention to customer comment in relation to the A350. Is this correct? That would make you unique amongst the well-known Boeing boosters!
 
elvis777
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:03 am

HB88,

you are taking this kind of personally.

Quoting HB88 (Reply 4):
Interesting to see this finally public. It's been frustrating listening to the immense piles of ill-informed rubbish on a.net about Airbus this and A350 that.

Your comment is the most troubling. As someone stated before there are many uninformed/informed opinions on A.net. But you make it sound as if your frustrations were warranted, as if you knew something more then the rest of us. In that case you should have done your best to enlighten the rest of us. Some speculation is bound to happen and perhaps that speculation is not far off the mark, perhaps it is. The thing is that the wsj article, who on occasion several persons vested in EADS have come out as saying that articles against eads are bashing the company - but in this case since it appears it is good news..., is not saying that eads will be successful. If they have made some moves then perhaps they are wise or perhaps not, maybe they are too late, but it does not support your argument that all this 'ill informed ' rubbish (would it be well informed rubbish if it is on the mark) has now been officially debunked because eads managed to get some of its old engineers on board.

In any case , this is an open forum where lots of speculation can go on- look at all the posts where the new (really really new-maybe new?) 350 will now be the 777/787 killer. All fo this is wishful thinking and I could very well call it uninformed rubbish and get my dander up, but hey what the heck... people need something to write about.

I do notice that there is quite a bit of passion on the eads side of the world as if our arguments would permanently damage the company (I think they are doing this just fine by themselves!). Lots of crying and whining whenever an article is posted that says something bad about eads comes up. People accuse others of searching on the net for bad things to say about eads... when in reality we subscribe to these and when they come up we post them because they are interesting to talk about.

As far as the number of post that lambast eads, I say that these are equally mirrored by the number of posts raising its arms to the heavens praising the company and by the number of posts that complain , loudly, about how unfair we all are to eads.

If eads is so freaking great then sell some planes! You've had the title for 5-6 years now and we are trying real hard to take it from you. I think we will. Even if there is an obscene amount of whining and Boeing bashing on A.net.

So have a coke and a smile, ad relax a bit. Sit back and enjoy all the sales that eads will garner with their new redesign (with all those ex retired engineers back- how can they not succeed?) and laugh at us poor disbelievers.

Just a friendly thought HB88

Peace

Elvis777
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BoomBoom
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-n

Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 35):
Read the discussions. You'll see what I was getting at.

Just as I thought. You can't come up with any specific examples. So you point me to two threads, each with 150+ posts and expect to waste my time reading through them trying to prove your arguments.
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leelaw
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-n

Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:37 pm

Quoting Hb88 (Reply 35):
I'm still surprised anyone would challenge a statement that many claimed Airbus was ignoring customer complaints.

Perhaps the full-text of the quite lengthy article under discussion isn't available to you, because the reporters tell the tale of how Airbus was actually perceived by key customers to be ignoring their complaints independent of any commentary appearing on A.net:

...Airbus officials initially dismissed claims about the Dreamliner's economics as far-fetched. Airbus Chief Operating Officer John Leahy, the company's top salesman, said all Airbus needed to do to compete with the Dreamliner was refit the old A330 with new engines.

The A350 was born, and immediately customers were dissatisfied. Compared with the Dreamliner, the new Airbus plane was too slow, had a small cabin and was costlier to operate because it didn't use new materials and technology. The A350's fuselage essentially had the same dimensions and production system Airbus had used since 1972.

"We were really coming down hard on the A350, but we didn't feel like we were getting their attention," says Steven Udvar-Hazy, chairman and chief executive of leasing giant International Lease Finance Corp., the largest customer for both Airbus and Boeing...

...Amid the superjumbo's embarrassing troubles last year, Airbus sales chief Mr. Leahy struggled to close major deals for the A350. Top carriers, including Emirates and Singapore Airlines, urged Airbus to compete more aggressively against the 787 by increasing the A350's speed, widening its cabin and improving its fuel efficiency.

Through last summer and fall, the plane maker's engineers gave the plane a bit more seating capability by transferring the space where pilots rest from the passenger deck to an area in the belly below the cockpit. Airbus also simplified the plane's skeleton, allowing for bigger overhead bins and a tad more elbow room.

They increased the jet's speed marginally and hired carmaker BMW AG to design a new interior with smoother curves, better lighting and the illusion of greater space. The changes allowed Mr. Leahy by October to land firm commitments from nine airlines and leasing companies for 140 A350s. Sixty came from one customer, Qatar Airways. Mr. Leahy boasted that by year-end the tally would rise to 200.

But Airbus's key longtime customers, such as Messrs Clark and Udvar-Hazy, were still unhappy because the plane maker was standing firm against an almost universal complaint -- that the cabin was too narrow. The Dreamliner was also still faster.

Mr. Clark said that talking to Airbus about improving the A350 cabin "was like knocking my head against a brick wall..."


In fact, according to Dr. Humbert himself, his own epiphany regarding the viability of the A350 in the marketplace didn't occur until the competition at QANTAS was lost in December 2005. Apparently, Mr. Udvar-Hazy was unaware that a serious "rethink" of the A350 concept was underway when he finally publicly "dropped the dime" on Airbus at ISTAT in late March.

It seems clear that Airbus didn't begin to heed warnings from key customers until the strategic defeats in various sales competitions/campaigns started to mount. The one mystifying aspect of this story that the reporters didn't satisfactorily nail down, was why did ILFC place firm orders for the A350 despite Mr. Udvar-Hazy's deep-seeded misgivings about the design; his explanation to this point has been somewhat cryptic.

[Edited 2006-07-16 05:47:03]
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Johnny
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sun Jul 16, 2006 7:13 pm

@Saturn5

"Using your logic one could argue that Airbus is also using technologies developed by others."

Yes, you got it! Absolutely correct! Both A and B are very dependent to technology which is developed by sub-contracted companies ( which are sub-contracted to develop and not only to produce parts! )

Todays airplanes like B787 or the Airbusses are not american or european airplanes anymore, they are world-airplanes! That could probably sound terrible for you, but there are no american civil airplanes anymore (as there are no european ones) .

Time to think global and not american/european in Aviation!

 Smile
 
VirginFlyer
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RE: WSJ: Airbus Redesigns The A350 - Mr. U-H's C-note

Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:07 pm

BoomBoom, Hb88, perhaps you could take your personal debate off the forum and into email or instant messaging?

On topic, I think Leelaw has hit the nail on the head :

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 38):
The one mystifying aspect of this story that the reporters didn't satisfactorily nail down, was why did ILFC place firm orders for the A350 despite Mr. Udvar-Hazy's deep-seeded misgivings about the design

Perhaps by placing the order, they felt they would be able to exert more influence on the design? It is in ILFC's best interest for there to be healthy competition in this market sector - it will allow them to more effectively play off the two manufacturers against each other on the price point further down the track...

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh

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