787kq
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:52 am

Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:22 am

Several sources report that Airbus widened the A350 which was originally the standard Airbus widebody fuselage width to slightly larger. This was at the insistence of leasing and airline customers? Why was this? Does this make the airplane more efficient? If so why aren't all airplanes as fat as can be?
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:31 am

First, we are not sure if the fuselage of the A350 will be wider....and/or the wider fuselage may only be offered on the larger variants of the airliner, which may be known as the A370. Its still too soon to tell.

Why the wider fuselage, simple answer, to accommodate 9 across seating in coach instead of the typical 8 abreast offered in Airbus widebody aircraft. By slightly increasing the diameter of the fuseage, one extra seat per row can be added. The 787 will have the option of 8 or 9 abreast, and it seems that the airlines like this idea and influenced Airbus on the issue. More seats + very minimal increase in the size of the fuselage = much better and much lower operating costs on a per seat basis.

Quoting 787KQ (Thread starter):
If so why aren't all airplanes as fat as can be?

LOL....we cant have fat airplanes, can we? There are many considerations, including the size of the airplane, its seating configuration, the issue of single aisle vs twin aisle, etc.
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:21 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
First, we are not sure if the fuselage of the A350 will be wider....and/or the wider fuselage may only be offered on the larger variants of the airliner, which may be known as the A370. Its still too soon to tell.

Somehow I can hardly believe that Airbus is sacrifizing the scale econmies they enjoy in the manufacturing of wide-bodies. Is it possible that they are NOT going to change their standard body-width, but just redesign the interior panneling in order to gain 2-3 inches?

Changing the entire structure of the plane doesn't seem to be viable for just 2-3 inches. Then it might be better to widen the body by lets say two feet and offer a kind of "9.5-seat-solution" comparable to the "8.5-seat-solution" of the 787.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 6147
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:55 pm

I know that the width (diameter) of the fuselage directly affects one of the "drags" (I obviously don't know which one) so my question is: How much? (A questiong for the engineering geeks amongst us.) I am sure that a manufacturer must get this right (minimize outside diameter and thereby drag, maximize interior volume to allow the customer maximums revenue and flexibility).

I am also curious about this "new" wider fuselage news supposed from Airbus. a while ago there were stories of a 15 inch wider fuse now it is just 3 inches? Is it like PADSpot suggest and just a redefining of the interior? It doesn't sound like it is a great enough change for them to lose the advantage they get form being able to use their current production equipment/facilities.

Also the news stated that the "cabin floor diameter" is three inches wider, so that begs the questions: Where is the new cabin floor in the fuselage? Could they have moved that (thinned it with CF maybe)?

Tug

[Edited 2006-07-15 08:58:56]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3672
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:21 pm

The standard width of the Airbus widebodies was ideal for the original design, the 280 seat A-300. It worked well for the slightly larger A-330/340 200/300s but the A-340-500 and 600 would have been more efficient if they had a wider fuselage. To add growth potential and be able to even offer a 777-300 sized stretch later on, a wider fuselage helps as well. A shrunk A-310/300 sized version would be less efficient though, so a wider fuselage choice means they rather attack the 777 then the 757/A-300/310 replacement market with it.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
astuteman
Posts: 6406
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 5:09 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 3):
I know that the width (diameter) of the fuselage directly affects one of the "drags" (I obviously don't know which one) so my question is: How much? (A questiong for the engineering geeks amongst us.) I am sure that a manufacturer must get this right (minimize outside diameter and thereby drag, maximize interior volume to allow the customer maximums revenue and flexibility).

I'm not necessarily the expert you're looking for Tugger, but IIRC lift drag is the largest component of overall drag. The fuelage drag (again IIRC) is part of "parasitic drag" (i.e. non-lift drag).
Therefore an increase in fuselage diameter doesn't have a 1 for 1 impact on overall drag. The impact is actually MUCH less.

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
It worked well for the slightly larger A-330/340 200/300s but the A-340-500 and 600 would have been more efficient if they had a wider fuselage

However, once you try to stretch a fuselage beyond a particular length (aspect ratio) in the interests of capacity, you soon start needing to strengthen the fuselage structure disproportinately to overcome the cantilever effect.
At some point, it becomes more effective overall to increase diameter rather than length, to gain additional capacity.

Concensus would seem to be that the A340-500/600 overstepped the optimum length, in the interests of maintaining production efficiencies through the common diameter.

Regards
 
orlando666
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2005 3:38 pm

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:23 pm

answer to original post question: "because the market wants it".
 
UA933
Posts: 108
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 5:57 am

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:43 pm

If this is true then it is great to finally see Airbus doing something smart!
united - It's time to fly!
 
Aviator27
Posts: 332
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:09 pm

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:20 pm

Airbus increased the A350 fuselage diameter because too many people on A-NET were complaining it couldn't fit 9 abreast. So yeah, they listened to us.

Induced drag (someone called it lift drag) decreases exponentially as airspeed increased. Parasite drag increases exponentially as airspeed increases.

Parasite drag consists of two main components, form drag and skin friction drag. Form drag is described as the drag caused by the frontal area of the airplane. Liken this to pushing a flat metal plate perpendicular through the air. Skin friction drag is pretty self explanatory. Blah blah blah blah blah.

So if you double the diameter of the fuselage, you increase the form drag by four-fold (area of circle = pi*r^2). Skin friction drag will increase two-fold because (circumference of a circle = pi*d). Blah blah blah blah blah.

Okay, here goes all the attacks. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I am pretty sure i did get the aerodynamic concept right though.
 
787kq
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:52 am

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:25 pm

Quoting Orlando666 (Reply 6):
answer to original post question: "because the market wants it".

Question to your answer is why does the market want it? Do airlines simply want wider aircraft for cosmetic reasons?

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
Why the wider fuselage, simple answer, to accommodate 9 across seating in coach instead of the typical 8 abreast offered in Airbus widebody aircraft. By slightly increasing the diameter of the fuseage, one extra seat per row can be added. The 787 will have the option of 8 or 9 abreast, and it seems that the airlines like this idea and influenced Airbus on the issue. More seats + very minimal increase in the size of the fuselage = much better and much lower operating costs on a per seat basis.

This answer attempts offers some clue which is that CASM would be lower.

I still dont get the big deal with the width issue. Emirates has 10 abreast on the 777. Most other airlines have nine abreast, and have resisted the 10 abreast although they too could put it in. So is this just an Emirates driven issue, or are other airlines going to squeeze in more seats per row in the future?
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:28 pm

Quoting 787KQ (Reply 9):
are other airlines going to squeeze in more seats per row in the future?

Sadly, this is probably the most accurate answer to your question.
 
dj1986
Posts: 107
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:25 pm

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sun Jul 16, 2006 12:29 am

If they would make the fuselage wider would the seating in a typical C Class be like 2-2-2 or 2-3-2?
US Airways I miss you!
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 6147
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:01 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 3):

Also the news stated that the "cabin floor diameter" is three inches wider, so that begs the questions: Where is the new cabin floor in the fuselage? Could they have moved that (thinned it with CF maybe)?

Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this? It seems like a rather specific qualifier.

Thanks.

Tug
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13807
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sun Jul 16, 2006 3:19 am

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 5):
Concensus would seem to be that the A340-500/600 overstepped the optimum length, in the interests of maintaining production efficiencies through the common diameter

I actually don't agree that the 345 overstepped. I think it is the optimum length. But Airbus did so with a very heavy airframe to carry a lot of fuel to go a long way on 4 engines. A 345 with 2 engines and 7800nm range would have been a very strong competitor to the 772ER.

But just looking at the 346, the human eye can see it is too long.

Quoting Dj1986 (Reply 11):
If they would make the fuselage wider would the seating in a typical C Class be like 2-2-2 or 2-3-2?

Yes, you can likely squeeze 2-3-2 in C on the 787 (with 767 style seats) or a very comfy 2-2-2. For F, you can do a very comfy 2-1-2 (seen in some Boeing layouts) for F, or 1-2-1 with suites in the 787. The current A300 series fuselage does not have room for 1-2-1 suite products. VS has don 1-1-1, but could do 1-2-1 on a 777 or 787 with their product. NZ took VS product and did 1-2-1 with their J suites.

So if the A350 is wider, it might not only pick up a seat per row in Y, but also a seat per row in C/J or F or all three, depending on the carrier.

And even in Y+, it might make 2-4-2 Y+ more comfy, while current A300 series aircraft have 2-3-2 Y+...

Quoting Tugger (Reply 12):
Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this? It seems like a rather specific qualifier.

That's what I was thinking, too. Currently, the cabin floor is not at the exact center of the body, but above the belt line. By thinning it and moving it down and doing some tweaks to the lower deck area to still fit the containers and pallets, you might get a few more inches. i just don't know if you can get 3 MORE inches than the 787 of OVERALL width. My guess is they found a way to do 17.2" 9Y seating with slightly narrow aisles while maintaining the same outdated fuselage shape...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
RAPCON
Posts: 651
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:20 am

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
First, we are not sure if the fuselage of the A350 will be wider....and/or the wider fuselage may only be offered on the larger variants of the airliner, which may be known as the A370. Its still too soon to tell.

WELL SAID!! I just wish that every Tom, DIck & Harry at A.Net would stop all the speculation malarkey over Airbus' plans, and wait until EADS itself comes out with their plans. Then, and only then, can we criticize them!!
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
comet4b
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:04 am

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sun Jul 16, 2006 4:21 am

who knows perhaps we may even want to compliment them!!!!!!!!!
 
Aircellist
Posts: 1295
Joined: Fri Oct 08, 2004 8:43 am

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:12 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 4):
The standard width of the Airbus widebodies was ideal for the original design, the 280 seat A-300. It worked well for the slightly larger A-330/340 200/300s but the A-340-500 and 600 would have been more efficient if they had a wider fuselage. To add growth potential and be able to even offer a 777-300 sized stretch later on, a wider fuselage helps as well. A shrunk A-310/300 sized version would be less efficient though, so a wider fuselage choice means they rather attack the 777 then the 757/A-300/310 replacement market with it.

What are the optimal fuselage width and lengths, for different numbers of passengers? I mean, is it a question of being less-than-optimal that has made the A310 a relatively poor seller, compared to the 767 or 757? And then, what were the qualities looked after by Boeing, to make machines so close together in capacity, with different fuselage widths?

(somewhat off-topic, but I've always been curious about that one... If fragmentation is the name of the game, I wonder why there are no more A310 around)
"When I find out I was wrong, I change my mind. What do you do?" -attributed to John Maynard Keynes
 
manni
Posts: 4049
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2001 1:48 am

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Sun Jul 16, 2006 9:49 am

Quoting Aircellist (Reply 16):
If fragmentation is the name of the game, I wonder why there are no more A310 around

There are still more than 600 A300/310 aircraft in operation, according to Airbus, 229 of hem are A310's. Considering the age of the program, that's hardly a dissapointing number.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 14):
I just wish that every Tom, DIck & Harry at A.Net would stop all the speculation malarkey over Airbus' plans, and wait until EADS itself comes out with their plans.

Why? As long as people state that they are speculating and not present it as fact, or as a rumour from so called 'good sources' without having the guts to name the source, there's nothing wrong with it.
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
787kq
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:52 am

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:44 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 1):
and/or the wider fuselage may only be offered on the larger variants of the airliner, which may be known as the A370.

First time I've heard that Airbus might build two widths, but this would be extremely unusual.

Quoting Manni (Reply 17):
As long as people state that they are speculating and not present it as fact, or as a rumour from so called 'good sources' without having the guts to name the source, there's nothing wrong with it.

Reported in Wall Street Journal, New York Times, at BBC, etc. Their information based on their good sources. Didn't think it was necessary to name a source when so widely and often reported. Another for you:

http://atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=4991&print=Y
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13685
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:50 pm

See here for all the real news about the A350XWB. Leahy Presents A350XWB At Farnborough (by Slz396 Jul 17 2006 in Civil Aviation)#58
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
787kq
Posts: 377
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:52 am

RE: Why Did Airbus Make The A350 Wider?

Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:50 pm

It's official, the A350 will be wider.

http://money.cnn.com/2006/07/17/news...nternational/airbus.reut/index.htm

So the benefits of a wider Airbus are...

[Edited 2006-07-17 16:52:27]

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos