RobertS975
Topic Author
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Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:50 pm

The last revenue flight of the MD11 for DL was 1/1/04. Most of the fleet was sold to Fedex. Now, it seems that DL is scrambling for long range international aircraft to meet the needs of its internal expansion plans. With 20/20 hindsight, would DL have been in a better position if it had kept its MD11 fleet in service?
 
727LOVER
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:54 pm

I'm still confused why DL could not take the original order of 777.
Love Trumps Hate
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:05 pm

Delta Airlines did not envision bankruptcy or a broad international expansion in 04 as they are embroiled in today. Routes that would be prime candidates if Delta had the equipment today would most likely include:

LAX-(JFK-CAI (Flown in the past))
LAX-(JFK-TLV (Flown in the past))
LAX-SLC-LGW
LAX-SLC-CDG

MCO-ATL-KIX
MCO-(JFK-TLV (Flown in the past))

ATL-CVG-NRT
ATL-JFK-NRT (Flown in the past)
ATL-(JFK-DXB (Flown in the past via CAI))
ATL-SLC-NRT
ATL-LAX-HKG (Flown in the past)
ATL-SLC-HKG
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
bucky707
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:12 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 1):
I'm still confused why DL could not take the original order of 777.

Delta is still in the process of taking the original 777 order. The original order was for 10, with options on another 20. The last two of the ten firm orders will be delivered in early 08. I am hearing rumors it might be sooner.


to answer your original question, yes I think it was a huge mistake to get rid of the MD-11s. With the big international expansion now there are many routes would could use them on.

[Edited 2006-07-16 16:14:32]
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:18 pm

Well, the decision to retire the MD-11 was made by a certain guy named Mullin, who only cared about setting up his Golden Parachute, so...
 
EMBQA
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:20 pm

Bucky707 how the heck are you..?? Yea missing your RONs in BGR..?? LoL.. I moved away in 1999 and don't miss the winters one second.

The MD-11 is still just a DC-10 with one less cockpit member. It didn't live up to several of it's selling points. Delta, as with most carriers were wise to dump them.

[Edited 2006-07-16 16:24:28]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
pilot21
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 1):
I'm still confused why DL could not take the original order of 777.

I believe the original order wasn't fully delivered, and the existing fleet was considered for sale because Delta and it's Pilots couldn't come to an agreement on salary for the Pilots who would fly them. At the time of the original delivery, Delta pilots wanted much higher amounts then other airlines where paying their B777 pilots, so after no agreement was reached, the remain deliveries were suspended. I'm not sure at what stage an agreement was finally reached to allow the fleet remain, but as far as I am aware, the original factor in the B777 saga with Delta was money.
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR
 
bucky707
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
Bucky707 how the heck are you..?? Yea missing your RONs in BGR..

actually, I used to enjoy the BGR layover!
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:12 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 7):
actually, I used to enjoy the BGR layover!

Bucky - what birds you flying these days?
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
AirCop
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:18 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Thread starter):
With 20/20 hindsight, would DL have been in a better position if it had kept its MD11 fleet in service?

I remember reading when they started the London service, they wished they had kept a couple of their 747's instead of using the L-1011. In short, situations change, hindsight is great, but as with everyone Delta has to deal with what they have now.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 2):

LAX-SLC-LGW
LAX-SLC-CDG
ATL-SLC-NRT
ATL-SLC-HKG

I sincerely doubt that DL had ANY INTERNATIONAL flight plans for SLC under Leo Mullin or his predecessor Robert Allen. In fact many speculate that Mullin was leaning towards dumping SLC as a hub entirely.
As for taking on the 777 as a replacement, the big sticking point was pilot pay since DL pilots wanted an arm, a leg and the first born from the company payroll as Pilot21 sums up:

Quoting Pilot21 (Reply 6):
I believe the original order wasn't fully delivered, and the existing fleet was considered for sale because Delta and it's Pilots couldn't come to an agreement on salary for the Pilots who would fly them. At the time of the original delivery, Delta pilots wanted much higher amounts then other airlines where paying their B777 pilots, so after no agreement was reached, the remain deliveries were suspended. I'm not sure at what stage an agreement was finally reached to allow the fleet remain, but as far as I am aware, the original factor in the B777 saga with Delta was money

Taking delivery of the first 8 772ERs was perhaps the smartest move that DL made during the 1999-2003 debacle that was part of the Mullin era. As for dumping the MD-11:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
The MD-11 is still just a DC-10 with one less cockpit member. It didn't live up to several of it's selling points. Delta, as with most carriers were wise to dump them.

And I must second this. I think procuring the MD-11 was a big mistake in the first place, and DL PERHAPS should have signed on with UA as being a launch customer for the 777.  twocents 
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
bucky707
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 8):
what birds you flying these days?

Back on the MD88.

[Edited 2006-07-16 18:37:56]
 
RobertS975
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:37 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
The MD-11 is still just a DC-10 with one less cockpit member. It didn't live up to several of it's selling points. Delta, as with most carriers were wise to dump them.

The MD11 always had its ineffciencies especially in terms of fuel consumption but nonetheless, it seems to be that DL could sure use the long range capacity right now as it opens up routes to Africa and India. The very fact that they were not parked or scrapped but converted to freighters indicates that even in this high cost of fuel environment, those planes can still be flown for a profit.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:58 am

Quoting Bucky707 (Reply 11):
Back on the MD88.

Ever fly outta LGA? Flying to CVG for the day on business on Weds on the 6:30am! (UGH).
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
bucky707
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:05 am

Yep, all the time. Just last week got caught up in the storms that went through that area. Long night. Great bunch of pax though. They all were on their phones to folks at home before we left ATL and knew about the weather, so they were very patient and understanding.
 
avconsultant
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting AirCop (Reply 9):
I remember reading when they started the London service, they wished they had kept a couple of their 747's instead of using the L-1011.

YEars ago someone told when DL started London service they substituted the DC-8's for the L-1011's or until they received the -500. Is this true?
 
KarlB737
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:07 am

Quoting RobertS975 (Thread starter):
would DL have been in a better position if it had kept its MD11 fleet in service?

Or their L-1011s.................?

What characteristics of the L-1011 pushed it out of the fleet and/or could its services be used now for this international aircraft problem.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:43 am

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 16):
What characteristics of the L-1011 pushed it out of the fleet and/or could its services be used now for this international aircraft problem.

How many L-1011s did Delta have before the first 767-400ER entered service? The 767-400ER was intended to replace the L-1011, and Delta has 21 of them. 8 are being converted to international routes. That leaves them with 13 767-400ERs for domestic routes. BTW, Delta still has options for 767-400ERs, and could order more as a stopgap until the 787 enters service.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
USPIT10L
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:48 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 10):
I sincerely doubt that DL had ANY INTERNATIONAL flight plans for SLC under Leo Mullin or his predecessor Robert Allen.

It was Ronald W. Allen.
It's a Great Day for Hockey!
 
1011
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:01 am

Quoting KarlB737 (Reply 16):
What characteristics of the L-1011 pushed it out of the fleet and/or could its services be used now for this international aircraft problem.

The L10s were paid for. But they were a older aircraft that was safe but required more maintenance than new types. They also used three cockpit crews and used a bit more gas than a 76, and had three engines. I'd still fly on that rather than anything new now. DL had the same problem with the 727 too. Three cockpit, three engines, used more gas, but most were paid for.

If I remember right DL had around 75 L10s total. Some -100,250s, and 500s. In the late 90s they had around 50 L10s. It was sad to see them and the 72s go rot and get broken up
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:47 am

Quoting USPIT10L (Reply 18):
It was Ronald W. Allen.

Oooops! Similar name (starts with "R"), my mistake.

Quoting 1011 (Reply 19):
The L10s were paid for. But they were a older aircraft that was safe but required more maintenance than new types. They also used three cockpit crews and used a bit more gas than a 76, and had three engines. I'd still fly on that rather than anything new now. DL had the same problem with the 727 too. Three cockpit, three engines, used more gas, but most were paid for.

Keep in mind that there gets to be a point where even if an a/c is paid for just like your car, it will start costing you more in MX and fuel inefficiency than paying for something newer. By the time most planes hit 20-25 years it is just the same as a car that is past 7-8 years when purchased new.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
474218
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:03 am

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 15):
YEars ago someone told when DL started London service they substituted the DC-8's for the L-1011's or until they received the -500. Is this true?

Not true. Delta leased two TWA L-1011-100's to fly the ATL-LGW route before they took delivery of there L-1011-500's

Quoting 1011 (Reply 19):
The L10s were paid for. But they were a older aircraft that was safe but required more maintenance than new types.

I remember reading a 2003 Atlanta Journal Constitution article on Delta. In the article it noted that Delta's maintenance costs increased almost 50% in 2002 over 2001. Which I thought that was very interesting because they stopped flying the expensive to maintain L-1011's in August 2001.

[Edited 2006-07-17 04:04:35]
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:46 pm

Quoting 1011 (Reply 19):
If I remember right DL had around 75 L10s total.

78 total, though never at the same time, to be precise, out of 250 built. Bought new from Lockheed or bought/leased from TWA, AC, PA and EA.
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 10):
I sincerely doubt that DL had ANY INTERNATIONAL flight plans for SLC under Leo Mullin or his predecessor Robert Allen.

The reference was to where Delta Airlines could have used the birds today..
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
DLSLC
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RE: Would DL Have Been Better Keeping Their MD-11s

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 4):
Well, the decision to retire the MD-11 was made by a certain guy named Mullin, who only cared about setting up his Golden Parachute,

You took the words right out of my mouth.. thanks DAL767400ER!  Wink

Plus DL would have been better keeping their MD-11s for all of us to keep watching and photagraphing!  banghead 

Devin B.