FCKC
Topic Author
Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:39 pm

Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:29 am

Not a surprise , as the Finnish airline already said they will stick with the new Airbus , as the XWB in any case will be a better performer than the previous version , but officialy this is the first customer.

In another way Airbus is prepared to loose one or two airlines , out of the already A350 customers list.So 1 or 2 more for the 787.

http://www.boursier.com/vals/FR/eads...ensations-d-airbus-news-193826.htm
 
Scorpio
Posts: 4763
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting FCKC (Thread starter):
In another way Airbus is prepared to loose one or two airlines , out of the already A350 customers list.So 1 or 2 more for the 787.

I don't think Airbus was talking about existing customers who had already signed on, but about possible future customers. The remark about possibly losing customers was made with regards to the possibility that only one engine manufacturer would sign on.
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Posts: 9042
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:45 am

Anyone have the numbers on what Finnair paid (or list price) vs. the new model?
 
pavlin
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2005 5:34 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:59 am

I am really curious what will current A350 customer do, when their plane has suddenly changed?
 
kanebear
Posts: 852
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 12:06 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 2):
Anyone have the numbers on what Finnair paid (or list price) vs. the new model?

Mere speculation but to bag an order by a first rate airline I'm sure Airbus gave major concessions.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:18 am

Well, they had ordered the 359 before, IIRC, and now the 358X is that size, so will they go with that instead?

BTW, FCKC, any reason you failed to mention the WHOLE content of the article?

It says that Finnair will stick with the 350X after COMPENSATION by A due to the changes and delay.

Airbus is paying them to stay on board, at least according to this article.

Only question is will Airbus cancel the old 350 orders LAST year and now book these as NEW orders THIS year to help win the year? It's possible to cancel based on year of order, not year of cancelation, and quietly "lose" last year's race now that nobody is paying attention...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5806
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:20 am

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 3):
I am really curious what will current A350 customer do, when their plane has suddenly changed?

Not having read the contracts, I cannot say for certain, but it seems to me that all current orders would be nullified and essentially need to be re-signed. Deposits should be valid on the A350XWB or other widebody products, or should be refundable in full.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
scouseflyer
Posts: 2165
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2006 7:02 pm

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:21 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 6):
Quoting Pavlin (Reply 3):
I am really curious what will current A350 customer do, when their plane has suddenly changed?

Not having read the contracts, I cannot say for certain, but it seems to me that all current orders would be nullified and essentially need to be re-signed. Deposits should be valid on the A350XWB or other widebody products, or should be refundable in full.

But AB will not want to lose their custom and will give a good deal - remember that they won't have o do a lot of the marketting of these planes again - just prove that the airline will be getting an equivalent or beter plane for their money
 
User avatar
N328KF
Posts: 5806
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:50 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 7):
But AB will not want to lose their custom and will give a good deal - remember that they won't have o do a lot of the marketting of these planes again - just prove that the airline will be getting an equivalent or beter plane for their money

There is the matter of lost time, though.
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13227
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
It's possible to cancel based on year of order, not year of cancelation, and quietly "lose" last year's race now that nobody is paying attention...

Are you saying it's possible, or asking?

Last year's sales and numbers would all be locked in to audited accounts, I don't see how you can cross numbers off last year and add the same order this year. I'm suspect Finnair's order will just have some additional clauses added to the existing contract.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:31 am

Its not really a surprise that Finnair is going with the A350........Finnair stated that it would stick with the A350 when no one even knew what Airbus was going to come up with and call the A350 or A370 a few weeks ago. Finnair is determined to go all Airbus for its 125+ passenger requirements.
 
A350
Posts: 1010
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:40 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:41 am

I only don't understand how Finnair will operate the A350XWB and the A343 parallel. There is probably no commonality left and Finnair is too small an airline to operate two widebody families in the long term.

A350
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 9):
Last year's sales and numbers would all be locked in to audited accounts, I don't see how you can cross numbers off last year and add the same order this year. I'm suspect Finnair's order will just have some additional clauses added to the existing contract.

It can be done. I was asking whether they would do so.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting A350 (Reply 11):
I only don't understand how Finnair will operate the A350XWB and the A343 parallel. There is probably no commonality left and Finnair is too small an airline to operate two widebody families in the long term.

A350

You raise an interesting point......although the ""old"" new A350 never had that much in common with the A343s either? A guess, and this is only a guess, at some point Airbus will help Finnair in swapping the three newly ordered A343s for additional A350s.......either with a buy back or assistance in re-marketing the aircraft.

I was never convinced that the A343 (both the newly ordered airplanes and the ex Virgin airplane now with Finnair) would be with Finnair for the long term....the A343 was ordered due to timing; Finnair needs new airplanes in the near term future to grow and this was the solution that was settled upon.
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13227
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:59 am

Quoting A350 (Reply 11):
I only don't understand how Finnair will operate the A350XWB and the A343 parallel. There is probably no commonality left and Finnair is too small an airline to operate two widebody families in the long term.

The A343s are a win-win situation for AY. They get the extra long-haul planes they need. They get experience of operating an Airbus widebody before their A350Xs are delivered, and of course they get engine commonality with their short-haul fleet.

Eventually, the A350Xs will replace the MD-11s and A343s. Quite a neat solution.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
FCKC
Topic Author
Posts: 1630
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 9:39 pm

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:34 am

Ikramerica

When i posted the thread , i only make a small comment , and sent the link for people to be more informed.
It's not my intention to conceal some informations and to publish others.

The whole world perfectly knows that already A350 customers which stick with the XWB will gain a major discount.That's the game , and Boeing will do the same thing if they were in the Airbus case.

One possibily is the already A350 customers which stick with the XWB , will pay the same price than the previous version.No affirmation , only a though.
 
AirbusA6
Posts: 1484
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 5:53 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:43 am

Finnair are 'lucky' in that they specified RR engines (the only airline to do so I think) on their 'original' A350s, so they know they definitely have an engine.

The customers who previously chose GE might have more issues to analyse, as GE seems to be definitely on the 800, possibly/probably on the 900, and definitely not on the 1000 (and I would assume any 900 long range variant which would need the same thrust as the 1000?)
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
swissy
Posts: 1481
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:12 pm

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 14):
The A343s are a win-win situation for AY. They get the extra long-haul planes they need. They get experience of operating an Airbus widebody before their A350Xs are delivered, and of course they get engine commonality with their short-haul fleet.

Eventually, the A350Xs will replace the MD-11s and A343s. Quite a neat solution.

Bingo Scbriml, it makes sense for AY to go that way..........

Cheers,  bigthumbsup 
 
fd728
Posts: 96
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 10:38 pm

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:58 am

Finnair said the MD-11 would be gone by 2010. WIth the A350 introduction pushed back to 2012, we might see the -11 soldier on for two more years. Would be great! However I guess the more likely scenario would be to get some more second hand A340s in the get rid of the MD-11s by 2010.

FD728
 
skytaxi
Posts: 111
Joined: Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:52 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:08 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
Only question is will Airbus cancel the old 350 orders LAST year and now book these as NEW orders THIS year to help win the year? It's possible to cancel based on year of order, not year of cancelation, and quietly "lose" last year's race now that nobody is paying attention...


Not only that, they will count the 100 Chinese orders again, since they were signed this year.
 
n844aa
Posts: 1266
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2003 10:38 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:14 am

Quoting SkyTaxi (Reply 19):
Not only that, they will count the 100 Chinese orders again, since they were signed this year.

I seriously doubt there will be any double-counting of orders.

Anyway, I just saw the rendering of the A350 -- Finnair's livery should suit it very well. I think it'll be a really nice-looking plane.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
DTWAGENT
Posts: 753
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:16 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:29 am

I wonder if USAirways will keep their order for the A350 now???? Sounds like it might be to big of an aircraft for them. Or will they just purchase more A330's?????

Chuck
 
User avatar
Stitch
Posts: 22920
Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:26 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:40 am

I think the A330 will be the better choice for US compared to either the A350 or the A350XWB.
 
DTWAGENT
Posts: 753
Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 1:16 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:05 am

Stitch, that is what I was thinking and they can get the A330 at an earlier date also. I'm I correct on that one.??????

Chuck
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:16 am

Quoting DTWAGENT (Reply 23):
Stitch, that is what I was thinking and they can get the A330 at an earlier date also. I'm I correct on that one.??????

Chuck



Quoting Stitch (Reply 22):
I think the A330 will be the better choice for US compared to either the A350 or the A350XWB.

US already has ten A332s on order for delivery starting in 2007.....the A332s were ordered to replace the 762s but its now not clear if the 762s will be retained. The A350s were ordered for further expansion and iwe do no know if US will confirm the A350 order due to changes in the airplanes being offered by Airbus.
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13730
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:47 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 15):
The whole world perfectly knows that already A350 customers which stick with the XWB will gain a major discount.That's the game , and Boeing will do the same thing if they were in the Airbus case.

I'm not about to argue with you, but this is an ENGLISH language site, you posted an article in FRENCH, and left out some specific information that those who don't speak or read french might very well be interested in.

Your intentions, I can not know, but if anything, it's a sin of omission.

Considering the headline roughly translates to:

"Finnair confirms their orders for the A350 after obtaining compensation from Airbus"

you might have, oh, I don't know, mentioned that little bit?

After all, you mention other information that isn't in the article, and it's a very short article...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
blackadder
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Dec 18, 2000 7:12 pm

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:40 pm

A press release by Finnair:

http://www.finnairgroup.com/group/gr...up_11_2_1.html?&Id=1153141375.html

It says it all and doesn´t say anything. There could be more A340´s before A350 or they might also keep the MD-11´s in service little longer. However, Finnair is happy with the A350 order.

Edit: "Finnair currently operates nine aircraft on its Asian routes."

?? I thought that there would be 7 MD-11´s and a single A340, am i missing something??

[Edited 2006-07-18 08:47:52]

[Edited 2006-07-18 08:48:24]
 
cloudyapple
Posts: 1261
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 7:01 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:49 pm

Quoting FD728 (Reply 18):
we might see the -11 soldier on for two more years.

They would be ~25 years old when FIN gets rid of them! Sure few reputable first tier passenger airlines will fly an aircraft that old!

Quoting N844AA (Reply 20):
I seriously doubt there will be any double-counting of orders.

They might "restate" last year's order total to 600 and push the 511 to this years total!!! No double counting there then!?  Wink
A310/A319/20/21/A332/3/A343/6/A388/B732/5/7/8/B742/S/4/B752/B763/B772/3/W/E145/J41/MD11/83/90
 
RAPCON
Posts: 651
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:20 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:52 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 1):
I don't think Airbus was talking about existing customers who had already signed on, but about possible future customers. The remark about possibly losing customers was made with regards to the possibility that only one engine manufacturer would sign on.

....and that only about 60% of the airframe will be made of composites.

I still would love to know where all the the economic advantage over the B bird is going to come from, 'cause Airbus has not reinvented flight dynamics, and neither RR or GE are going to all of the sudden create a magical engine.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
FinnWings
Posts: 633
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:03 am

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting Cloudyapple (Reply 27):
They would be ~25 years old when FIN gets rid of them! Sure few reputable first tier passenger airlines will fly an aircraft that old!

Most of the B747-400s will be over 20 years old at that time too and airlines aren't even seriously considering to replace those aircrafts. Why should AY hurry with equally old MD-11s in 2012?

It is not a big deal for Finnair if A350 will be delayed by a year or so especially because they will get good compensation from Airbus and much better aircraft than they previously ordered. Definitely a win-win situation for AY...

Best Regards,
FinnWings
 
WSOY
Posts: 822
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:24 pm

RE: Finnair : 1st A350XWB Customer

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 28):
I still would love to know where all the the economic advantage over the B bird is going to come from, 'cause Airbus has not reinvented flight dynamics, and neither RR or GE are going to all of the sudden create a magical engine.

We can rest assured that attempting to crack this puzzle will become a popular pastime within the present community.
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 787fan8, Baidu [Spider], Bing [Bot], canyonblue17, Cipango, dk44, Ducari, fun2fly, Google Adsense [Bot], Guillaume787, jonchan627, maximairways, mict, NZAA, philipkk, Polot, qf15, readytotaxi, rg828, rutankrd, TK105, vv701, ZKOAB and 269 guests