n844aa
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Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:02 pm

Quote:
“It doesn’t have the splash of the 787, but splash is only part of the story,” said Richard Aboulafia, an analyst at the Teal Group, an aerospace research firm in Fairfax, Va. “Given the circumstances, they’re going after the right part of the market, and they’re doing it in a smart way.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/18/business/worldbusiness/18airbus.html

So ... is this assessment of an unprincipled, biased hack? If a.net conventional wisdom is true, then I guess this means the A350 is destined to be a huge disaster. Big grin

Anyway, interesting article that includes some commentary from Boeing as well. It looks like Airbus has a potentially formidable aircraft in the new A350. So far it seems like the extra time spent devising specifications was definitely worth the wait.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:20 pm

Good article. This passage merits consideration:

Quote:
Boeing seemed unruffled by the A350, noting it would not enter service until 2012, four years after the 787. While the plane will have a wider cabin than the 787, it will be narrower than the 777.

By trying to straddle too much of the market with a single plane, Boeing said Airbus would wind up with a plane that is less economical for the airlines. �It�s a big chunk of territory to try to cover with one plane,� said Michael B. Bair, who heads the 787 program.

Boeing also noted that the plane would have an aluminum fuselage, not one made of advanced composite materials, like the 787. �It sounds like it�s going to fall short of the available technology,� said Randy Baseler, vice president for marketing at Boeing�s commercial aircraft division.
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
gigneil
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:22 pm

Clearly it does, since it agrees with your agenda.

Anyway, I felt a stiff cool breeze from hell when I read this.

N
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:49 pm

Interesting is that he hardly speaks anything in that article. Streiff is cited, for not opening financial information, which is no sensation at all, and tons of Boeing people are cited about their opinion on Airbus and the 350-program...

Not a very good article. information level was low, bias and fight level was high, and the 'analyst' Aboulafia, who is not exactly an example for standing above biases, was hardly cited...

This is not meant to fight an A<>B war, rather to discuss the article given...
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
Aviator27
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:17 pm

Since when is Al-Li not an advanced material? As far as I know, its one of the lightest and best "composite" material there is. Perhaps Boeing's definition of composite materials is only CFRP. I have CFRP all over the interior of my car.

I am no expert but the definition of a composite is the combination of two or more types of materials of different characteristics. There are polymer/ceramic composites and metal/ceramic composites. By structure these are also broken down into two categories, fiber reinforced composites and particle reinforced composites.

The smarts ones in the bunch will figure out which one Boeing is using and which one Airbus is using.
 
ScottB
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:39 pm

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 4):
I am no expert but the definition of a composite is the combination of two or more types of materials

Clearly you are no expert; Al-Li would be an alloy, not a composite.

The "composites" in the A350 announced today are also likely to include materials like GLARE.
 
baroque
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:40 pm

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 2):
Anyway, I felt a stiff cool breeze from hell when I read this.

Are you sure the breeze was cool Gigneil? Could it be that the heat wave we hear you are having there made it seem cool. So maybe all is still right with the underworld and RA will be back on form presently.

It is amazing how so few tea leaves can be read in such a detailed manner. It seems to me that so far Airbus has managed not to tell us what the fuse will actually be made of, and still less about how it will be made.

I get the feeling that Airbus are probably not going to release some material for a while yet. But I guess they will have to tell potential customers a bit more. Meanwhile back to reading whatever tea leaves that Airbus provides.
 
Areopagus
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:20 pm

That NYTimes article gives the prices for the 3 sizes of A350XWB as $186M, $215M, and $242M. Boeing's web site gives the 787 prices as $138-143M, $148-157.5M, and $178.5-188M. It looks like the two ranges barely overlap. The A350 is priced like the 777.
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:24 pm

Quoting Areopagus (Reply 7):
The A350 is priced like the 777.

It is going to give the 777 a hard time, what pricing do you expect? Apart from that, usually Airbus is being bashed for the high discounts, now they are bashed for the high prices nobody pays, what's wrong here?
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
khenleydia
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:29 pm

Interesting article. People here are pointing out the lack of details, but in reality, there are no details (or very few) to share. I guess they could have just copied some of the a.net threads and made an article from that.

As for the composites, my guess is that Boeing will enjoy bringing up that Airbus didn't push the available technology to the limit like they did with the 787.

I'm glad they finally announced something and I look forward to seeing the "final" product. I have to say though, from the 2 pictures around, it looks a lot like the 787 does and did. By that I mean, the tail from the frozen version of the 787 and the nose from one of the earlier concepts. The wing looks like a mix of 787 and 747-8. But, I guess when it gets down to it, there are only so many ways a conventional plane can be designed and the laws of physics don't change depending on the company.

KhenleyDIA
Why sit at home and do nothing when you can travel the world.
 
astuteman
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:32 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):
It seems to me that so far Airbus has managed not to tell us what the fuse will actually be made of, and still less about how it will be made.

They haven't told us what the fuse is made of yet, but the let one-or-two drips of information leak through the sieve. I posted this on the "777 minus 7" thread.

A350X composite content is reported as being 45% of total weight (compared to 35% for the "old" A350 IIRC, and 50% for the 787).

http://www.bdtonline.com/business/fe...FRG1.xml.txt/resources_apstoryview

The new A350 will make greater use of composites _ which make up 45 percent of its mass, compared with 50 percent for the 787. It will also offer a more comfortable passenger cabin than its rival's, Leahy said

Regards
 
khenleydia
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:48 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 10):
It will also offer a more comfortable passenger cabin than its rival's, Leahy said

I love those types of comments! Leahy wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't say something like that. Besides, I believe that it will be up to the passengers to decide.

I am not a fan of Sales people in general, especially Leahy, but I have spent a lot of time on the A-340s and I look forward to spending time on whatever they actually build next.  Smile

KhenleyDIA
Why sit at home and do nothing when you can travel the world.
 
n844aa
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:49 pm

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 3):
Not a very good article. information level was low, bias and fight level was high, and the 'analyst' Aboulafia, who is not exactly an example for standing above biases, was hardly cited...

 

You complain about Aboulafia's "bias," yet then criticize the reporter for barely quoting him? Is this along the lines of the old "The food was terrible! And the portions so small!" complaint?  

In any event, I thought the article was noteworthy because a.) it is, as far as I know, the first public commentary on the program by that particular polarizing figure, b.) an interesting collection of commentary from various interested parties, and c.) a decent summary of the announcement and its implications. Re-reading it, I can't quite grasp your objections...

[Edited 2006-07-18 08:50:24]
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
centrair
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:54 pm

Quote:
Airbus is actually aiming at two Boeing jets with the A350: the 787 and the 777, which is larger and can fly very long routes — between Los Angeles and Singapore, for example. In the last year, the 777 crushed the long-range A340 in orders, giving Airbus little choice but to replace it.

Does this mean the A340 replaced or the A350 being replaced by the A350XWB?

Would be interesting if it meant teh A340.
My name is Centrair but HND is closer. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
klmcedric
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:59 pm

One thing I don't understand though. Airbus is planning for a 20% level of
humidity on the 350X. How can this feature be achieved with a alloy fuselage?
 
atmx2000
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:18 pm

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 8):

It is going to give the 777 a hard time, what pricing do you expect? Apart from that, usually Airbus is being bashed for the high discounts, now they are bashed for the high prices nobody pays, what's wrong here?

He's not bashing, just pointing out the low overlap. I would say there is significant overlap with the 787-9, probably enabled by not making the A350 as wide as was being suggested.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 6):

It is amazing how so few tea leaves can be read in such a detailed manner. It seems to me that so far Airbus has managed not to tell us what the fuse will actually be made of, and still less about how it will be made.

I get the feeling that Airbus are probably not going to release some material for a while yet. But I guess they will have to tell potential customers a bit more. Meanwhile back to reading whatever tea leaves that Airbus provides.

Indeed, a lot of fluff, including music videos, and not much hard information and numbers.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
Woosie
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:36 pm

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 14):
One thing I don't understand though. Airbus is planning for a 20% level of
humidity on the 350X. How can this feature be achieved with a alloy fuselage?

It can be done on any airplane...the question is how to deal with the potential for corrosion and it's affect on aerostructures.
 
art
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:33 pm

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 14):
One thing I don't understand though. Airbus is planning for a 20% level of
humidity on the 350X. How can this feature be achieved with a alloy fuselage?

Bilge pumps?

As for Richard Aboulafia's comment:

“Given the circumstances, they’re going after the right part of the market, and they’re doing it in a smart way.”

I don't see why anyone should call this biased. It sounds like a reasonable analysis from an analyst to me.

[Edited 2006-07-18 10:37:28]
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:33 pm

Quoting N844AA (Reply 12):
You complain about Aboulafia's "bias," yet then criticize the reporter for barely quoting him? Is this along the lines of the old "The food was terrible! And the portions so small!" complaint?

Sorry, could have been clearer on that...

He is an analyst, and the thread title is about him and the 350. Yet he is hardly quoted, the biggest junk of the article is made by the drivel of Boeing sales people...

Can hardly be considered news...

And yes, I think he is biased and not a good source to quote, but the thread title is misleading, as Aboulafia is still knwon as an analyst, I wonder though whifch manufacturer adds more to his paycheck...
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
jacobin777
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:36 pm

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 18):
Sorry, could have been clearer on that...

He is an analyst, and the thread title is about him and the 350. Yet he is hardly quoted, the biggest junk of the article is made by the drivel of Boeing sales people...

Can hardly be considered news...

And yes, I think he is biased and not a good source to quote, but the thread title is misleading, as Aboulafia is still knwon as an analyst, I wonder though whifch manufacturer adds more to his paycheck...

-You can think what you want, but he makes his bread and butter as an independent analyst...not a Boeing Kool Aid drinker...if his/his companies analysis are wrong, they won't be in business for too long..

-Maybe you haven't bothered to read some of his comments/analysis during Boeings troubled years a few years ago..he was just as critical with Boeing back then as he is with Airbus right now...
"Up the Irons!"
 
baroque
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 10:19 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 10):

They haven't told us what the fuse is made of yet, but the let one-or-two drips of information leak through the sieve. I posted this on the "777 minus 7" thread.

A350X composite content is reported as being 45% of total weight (compared to 35% for the "old" A350 IIRC, and 50% for the 787).

Mmmm, yes but that link seemed to have died. I just get the feeling that we are about to have a long and probably sterile debate about what the word composite means. And even if it is Al-Li, either you, Astuteman, or Richard Price pointed out that newer methods might permit Airbus to build a lighter structure than the methods used for the A330. The stuff about higher humidity might be a clue that it is not going to be too similar to the A330 - unless the jokers suggesting a bilge pump happen to be correct.

If they are using a sieve, I am not going to see much in the tealeaves!
 
airfrnt
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:05 pm

Quoting Art (Reply 17):
As for Richard Aboulafia's comment:

�Given the circumstances, they�re going after the right part of the market, and they�re doing it in a smart way.�

I don't see why anyone should call this biased. It sounds like a reasonable analysis from an analyst to me.

Reason and Cheerleaders on A.net have very little to do with each other. Richard Aboulafia has a history of being very accurate, and very provocitive. He plays up what he says, but the core message is usually on base.

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 8):

It is going to give the 777 a hard time, what pricing do you expect? Apart from that, usually Airbus is being bashed for the high discounts, now they are bashed for the high prices nobody pays, what's wrong here?

Call it a 777 competitor rather then a 787 competitor.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 10):
They haven't told us what the fuse is made of yet, but the let one-or-two drips of information leak through the sieve. I posted this on the "777 minus 7" thread.

A350X composite content is reported as being 45% of total weight (compared to 35% for the "old" A350 IIRC, and 50% for the 787).

http://www.bdtonline.com/business/fe...FRG1.xml.txt/resources_apstoryview

The new A350 will make greater use of composites _ which make up 45 percent of its mass, compared with 50 percent for the 787. It will also offer a more comfortable passenger cabin than its rival's, Leahy said

This is really puzzleing. At the risk of offending the A cheerleaders, how does Airbus believe this frame will be competitve with the 787 again? More seat CASM tricks?
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:20 pm

Other industry analysts are beginning to weigh in:

Quote:
Chris Bensick, managing director of GATX Air, a large airplane-leasing operation, offers his take on the A350.

"There's no question Airbus can build good airplanes," said Bensick. "The question is, will they be able — coming so late into the game — to get a significant chunk of the business?"

He said Airbus had definitely made a mistake in not seriously going after the 787 until now.

And the decision to include a rival to the 777 in the new family "is recognition that the 777 has been a great product and that the A340 is coming to an end sooner rather than later."

Here's Marty Olson, International Lease Finance Corp. (ILFC) senior vice president, responsible for buying aircraft for the Los Angeles-based leasing giant.

"The 787 has a certain sex appeal to it, with the composite fuselage," he said. "The A350 is more traditional.

"We're very happy to see the new product," he said. "They've created the outline. There's a lot of work to be done."

He believes there's room in the market to sell a decent number of each.

Does Boeing need to respond to protect the older 777?

"The 777 is a very successful airplane," Olson said. "It will continue to be a very successful airplane."

Another senior industry figure agrees to be quoted, provided he is not identified.

The Airbus news conference, he said, "was a lot of show. They had to respond [to Boeing]. I'm not sure they'll be able to fulfill the product."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ospace/2003133769_a350react18.html
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
sphealey
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:30 pm

The world's large airlines will not, under any circumstances, allow one of the two remaining manufactuers of transport aircraft to drive the other one out of business. If that does happen, they will subsidize a Russian mfgr or Embraer until it has at least 40% market share. There is no way in the world that big buyers could allow themselves to be trapped in a single-supplier situation. I would be willing to bet that even Southwest meets with Airbus regularly and lets Boeing know they are doing so.

sPh
 
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autothrust
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:32 pm

Abulafia should close his mouth and go home, his comment is so stupid with 0.0000 % usable information. banghead 

Quote:

-The plane will have the �widest windows in the industry.
-Humidity in the cabin will be adjusted to 20 percent, in contrast to 15 percent on the 787

That are nice news cant wait this bird is builded and i also think the plane will get some other fiew surprises to make it more attractive.
I can imagine a better lightning system, and maybe other features developed for the a380.
We will have to wait the design isnt even frozen a hell can change.

Btw i think the fuselage will be a mix of composites glare and newest al-li alloys.
“Faliure is not an option.”
 
n844aa
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting Autothrust (Reply 24):
Abulafia should close his mouth and go home, his comment is so stupid with 0.0000 % usable information.

Pot? Kettle?  Wink

But seriously, what do you find so objectionable about the comment? He's providing his initial assessment of the aircraft -- something that, for whatever reason, he gets paid to do. (Nice work if you can get it!) He may be something of a self-promoter, but he tends to express thought-provoking viewpoints in a colorful manner. Personally, I think he'd be a pretty interesting addition to the a.net community -- toss him into the lion's den, so to speak. Big grin
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
Aither
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 21):
Richard Aboulafia has a history of being very accurate, and very provocitive.

I would say 20% accurate and 80% provocative.

He's a general public analyst. He has no chart of his own on his website. He just tell things.
Never trust the obvious
 
leelaw
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:05 am

Actually, the analyst Aboulafia seems more sanguine about the prospects of the A350XWB than some "industry executives" immediately after the announcement. See: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB (by Leelaw Jul 18 2006 in Civil Aviation)
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
jacobin777
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 26):

I would say 20% accurate and 80% provocative.

He's a general public analyst. He has no chart of his own on his website. He just tell things.

maybe he prefers people/companies pay for his work rather than giving out "freebies" to A.net members and the media...... Wink
"Up the Irons!"
 
astuteman
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 27):
Actually, the analyst Aboulafia seems more sanguine about the prospects of the A350XWB than some "industry executives" immediately after the announcement

That was my thought too Leelaw. Fortunately for me, I've not been one to routinely "trash" Aboulaifa, so I can only say I find his comments on the A350X most reasonable.  Smile

OK, he contributed to the notorious "Gellman" report, but his marketing analysis was the good bit  Smile

Regards
 
Aviator27
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:16 am

Wood is defined as a naturally occuring composite material. Try not to be so narrowminded.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 30):
Wood is defined as a naturally occuring composite material. Try not to be so narrowminded.

about?
"Up the Irons!"
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 4):
Since when is Al-Li not an advanced material? As far as I know, its one of the lightest and best "composite" material there is. Perhaps Boeing's definition of composite materials is only CFRP. I have CFRP all over the interior of my car.

Al-Li is not a composite, it's just another metal alloy. It's also substantially heavier than the boeing carbon composites used in 787. A few tons of extra fuselage weight isn't helpful.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
pygmalion
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:51 am

adding humidity....

Quoting Woosie (Reply 16):
It can be done on any airplane...the question is how to deal with the potential for corrosion and it's affect on aerostructures.

 checkmark  without adding weight!
 
fspilot747
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:09 am

Is it me or does that look a lot like the 787
 
RAPCON
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting Aither (Reply 26):
I would say 20% accurate and 80% provocative.

He's a general public analyst. He has no chart of his own on his website. He just tell things.

If there ever is an A.Net convention, we've got to invite this guy and Leahy to the happy hour!!!
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
AirSpare
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:26 am

The level of humidity, as well as the temperature, can be varied, depending on whether passengers are seated in economy, business or first class.

Oh yea, that is brilliant.

Time to avoid A and B news for a month or 3.
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
gigneil
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 32):
It's also substantially heavier than the boeing carbon composites used in 787

No, it isn't. That's it. Al-Li is as light as and can be lighter than the CFRP tape Boeing is using.

N
 
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glideslope
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting KLMCedric (Reply 14):
One thing I don't understand though. Airbus is planning for a 20% level of
humidity on the 350X. How can this feature be achieved with a alloy fuselage?

Loads of MX Cost.  Smile
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
astuteman
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 32):
It's also substantially heavier than the boeing carbon composites used in 787

In reality, the fuselage structure weight is as dependent on the METHOD of construction as it is on the material.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 37):
No, it isn't. That's it. Al-Li is as light as and can be lighter than the CFRP tape Boeing is using.

I'll be interested to see what Airbus can come up with.

Regards
 
jacobin777
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:54 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 37):

No, it isn't. That's it. Al-Li is as light as and can be lighter than the CFRP tape Boeing is using.

that is incorrect..

1)CFRP has a lower density than Al-Li (1.5 versus 2.6-2.7)-Mg*m^-3
2)CFRP has a higher Youngs Modulus-(70-200 versus 70)-Gn*M^2
3)CFRP has a higher critical stress intensity factor (i.e.-stress factor)-(32-45 versus 23-45)MN n^-3/2

the most important one is the first one...density....

the Al-Li alloys are the "standard" variations used- (not that it makes too much of a difference)

sources: University of Cambridge, Society for the Advancement of Material and Process Engineering, READE Corp., Virginia Tech.edu,
"Up the Irons!"
 
elvis777
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RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:05 am

Hey Jetflyer,

Chill out bro! try one of your famous brews or what have you. hay Caramba, I just dont get you dude. Like, it seems to me that you are pissed off cus not many peeps are giving your beloved a350 the props u think it merits.

What do you want us poor creetens to do? I mean we are commenting on the comments made by analyists on the merits of your fave bird. So like, we have a different opinion on this. so like relax a bit and dont worry about it. If you dont like this thread, uhm like dont read it.

Thicker skins need to be developed on your side of the pond bro cus no one is like bashing your fave aircraft maker!

As far as you complaining about the english some folks use here, There have been people that are more adept at being pedants (from cool places like Australia and Switzerland) Although ultimately everyone receives their comeuppance.

So sit back and enjoy all the sales that your new bird will get and watch us poor unbelievers eat crow as the 777 sales take a big big nosedive. No need to become an anger ball about all this.

Peace out!

Elvis777
Leper,Unevolved, Misplaced and Unrepentant SportsFanatic and a ZOMBIE as well
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 628
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:24 am

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 30):
Wood is defined as a naturally occuring composite material. Try not to be so narrowminded

A really thin 13 ply spruce plywood makes up the nosecone on all of the Polaris, Posidon, Trident I, and Trident II missiles. The shell is FRP but the nosecose is plywood. Yes it is a composite, yes it is very light and very strong.

It actually might be a Fuse and wing skin, possibly with an overlay of some smooth and shiny plastic or metal.
 
Propulsion
Posts: 282
Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:30 am

RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting Khenleydia (Reply 11):
I love those types of comments! Leahy wouldn't be doing his job if he didn't say something like that. Besides, I believe that it will be up to the passengers to decide.

The majority of passengers don't really give a monkeys about whether x aircraft is better than y. For most, it simply means being overly squashed into a long tube with little sign of effort by the airline to make them avoid either DVT or the slightest amount of space....unless you pay £5000 a ticket of course.

The latter fact also dilutes the value of saying aircraft x is better than y because even the most arguably disliked plane can appear 'better' to a typical passegner, simply because it has a bit more room at their seat.
A bus is a vehicle that runs twice as fast when you are after it as when you are in it.
 
grantcv
Posts: 410
Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 1:28 pm

RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:01 am

Quoting FSPilot747 (Reply 34):
Is it me or does that look a lot like the 787

It seems to be eurocopy of the 787. I am figuring that more marketing has gone into this version of the A350 than engineering. Remember how long it took Boeing to come up with the final shape of the B787. I think what we see now is their "Dreamliner" concept. The specs are what they want to do - not what they necessarily can or will do.
 
TinkerBelle
Posts: 1436
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:46 am

RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:06 pm

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 8):
It is going to give the 777 a hard time, what pricing do you expect? Apart from that, usually Airbus is being bashed for the high discounts, now they are bashed for the high prices nobody pays, what's wrong here?

Who bashed them for high prices???  confused 

Quoting Khenleydia (Reply 9):
I'm glad they finally announced something and I look forward to seeing the "final" product. I have to say though, from the 2 pictures around, it looks a lot like the 787 does and did. By that I mean, the tail from the frozen version of the 787 and the nose from one of the earlier concepts. The wing looks like a mix of 787 and 747-8. But, I guess when it gets down to it, there are only so many ways a conventional plane can be designed and the laws of physics don't change depending on the company.

 checkmark 

Well said
If you are going through hell, keep going.
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:53 pm

Quoting Jetflyer (Reply 41):
"airbus sucks"
"a350 sucks"

"it isn't made out of this that or the other the this doesn't work thats too heavy its not efficient enough the wings will fall off it needs redesigning"
OH MY GOD some people can't get enough of moronic topics like this can they? No wonder people think Civ Av forum SUCKS

listen Jetflyer...when the spokesman for a company comes out in a big way and says "our plane is better than their product one, and will crush their product two"...he better be able to back it up and widthstand the scrutiny...

....especially on A.net... biggrin 

Quoting TinkerBelle (Reply 51):
If you're gonna bitch about English, try differentiating between 'here' and 'hear' first.

lol..I was thinking the same thing... biggrin 
"Up the Irons!"
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:45 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 39):
Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 32):
It's also substantially heavier than the boeing carbon composites used in 787

In reality, the fuselage structure weight is as dependent on the METHOD of construction as it is on the material.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 37):
No, it isn't. That's it. Al-Li is as light as and can be lighter than the CFRP tape Boeing is using.

I'll be interested to see what Airbus can come up with.

When the A350 was as fat (or thin) as an A330, Airbus maintained that the difference between Al-Li and CFRP would be "minor". It was suggested here that this might reflect in large part different methods of construction as is reflected in Astutemans comment on the method of construction.

Now that the A350 has put on diameter, it presumably contains more metal to cope with the extra circumference, but presumably this will be offset to a greater or lesser extent by the metal removed because the stiffness of a fatter structure is inherently greater.
RE: Airbus A350/370 What Do We Know So Far? (by Astuteman May 10 2006 in Civil Aviation)#ID2764385
had this section from Astuteman

"Riveting and Bonding will add substantial weight to an aircraft structure compared to welding (any structure, for that matter)......
You have both
a) an overlap of the panels (i.e. duplicate material), and
b) a material thickness increase over what would be necessary with a welded joint to compensate for the holes in the parent panels. That increased thickness may be for the entire panel, otherwise you would need even more panels and more joins to accommodate differing material thicknesses.

The weight saving will vary dependent upon component size. But it will be substantial, trust me. It could easily be 10% (Ignore the weight of the fasteners + bonding materials, they're not the weight drivers)"

That was from 10 May 2006. Assuming that this bet is still on (I think Astuteman was then only writing about A350 thin and opposed to A350 fat but presumably the same holds) we should soon be able to see how construction methods will affect the overall weight.

Let us hope that the story will have a happier ending than the classic tale of weight loss, "The truth about Pyecraft" - H G Wells.
 
art
Posts: 2696
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:57 pm

Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 44):
As far as you complaining about the english some folks use here, There have been people that are more adept at being pedants...

Sorry, must just point out misuse of capitalisation and the relative pronoun. You should have written:

"there have been people who are more adept at being pedants..."  Smile
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Richard Aboulafia Speaks On The A350

Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:31 pm

Quoting Art (Reply 48):
Quoting Elvis777 (Reply 44):
As far as you complaining about the english some folks use here, There have been people that are more adept at being pedants...

Sorry, must just point out misuse of capitalisation and the relative pronoun. You should have written:

"there have been people who are more adept at being pedants.

Que? Must get back to Barcelona, late for siesta. Signed, Apostrophe Man.

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