leelaw
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Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:27 pm

LONDON — At a reception in London's Science Museum on Monday evening, members and guests of the International Society of Transport Aircraft Trading met to drink, eat hors d'oeuvres and talk commercial aviation.

With a lunar-landing vehicle to one side and a blue-laser light cycling dramatically overhead inside a giant transparent ring, it was a fine venue at which to gauge reaction to the big Airbus announcement of its new airplane family, branded the A350 XWB.

This group clearly didn't see the news as a dire turning point for Boeing...


http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...ospace/2003133769_a350react18.html

Interesting "news analysis" article, Mr. Gates conclusion after some cocktail converation with executives from GATX, ILFC, etc.: "[i]n time, airline bean counters are going to have to sift the data carefully. But it appears Boeing needn't panic right away."

Apparently, Mr. Olson of ILFC doesn't see the latest A350 design iteration as sure-fire "777 Killer."

[Edited 2006-07-18 07:39:25]

[Edited 2006-07-18 08:01:55]
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jacobin777
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XW

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:34 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Interesting article, Mr. Gates conclusion after some cocktail converation with executives from GATX, ILFC, etc.: "[i]n time, airline bean counters are going to have to sift the data carefully. But it appears Boeing needn't panic right away."

I found this to be interesting also...

""That's not a cheap proposition," said the executive. "The point is the airframe is not new; the bulk of the fuel efficiencies are in the engine.""

as well as.

"The "extra-wide body" A350 branding now plastered on billboards around Farnborough is justified, Leahy explained, because the A350 is wider than the 787. And as for the 777, well true, the Boeing plane has a wider fuselage; but if you installed standard eight-abreast seating in the Airbus plane and the nine-abreast standard in the 777, the A350's seats would be wider."

the problem is that this doesn't stack up to EK's 10-abreast on their 777's... spin 


apropos...thanks for the link. Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XW

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:39 pm

Gates? Isn't that the one who could not differ between freighter and pax planes just recently?

Just as Airbus has lost credibility, according to many people here, he has too...
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
leelaw
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:47 pm

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 2):

No doubt Mr. Gates made a serious error in his report yesterday concerning the nature of the nascent Emirates 748 order, hopefully he's able to get his conversations at a cocktail party straight, considering some of the comments of industry executives reported in the article are on the record.

[Edited 2006-07-18 08:04:46]
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atmx2000
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:54 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 1):
"The "extra-wide body" A350 branding now plastered on billboards around Farnborough is justified, Leahy explained, because the A350 is wider than the 787. And as for the 777, well true, the Boeing plane has a wider fuselage; but if you installed standard eight-abreast seating in the Airbus plane and the nine-abreast standard in the 777, the A350's seats would be wider."

I suspect the new A350's 8 abreast seating is going to be like 9 abreast on the 747. The 747 9 abreast configuration has wider seats than the 777, but they are just a bit too wide, so they were ditched by airlines. I think 8 abreast on the A350 will be relegated to premium economy.

With the 777, Boeing went below the mid point, so 9 abreast ended up being the preferred format (this would have the effect of protecting the 747 from competition, which might have been on Boeing's mind). With the 787, I think Boeing is coming closer to the midpoint, so that there will be more airlines using the which ever layout is less popular format than with the 747 and 777. And probably more airlines will consider 4 class layouts, or mixed fleets.

I think the real question is what does this enable in the forward cabin for the premium classes.
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jacobin777
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Tue Jul 18, 2006 2:59 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 4):

I suspect the new A350's 8 abreast seating is going to be like 9 abreast on the 747. The 747 9 abreast configuration has wider seats than the 777, but they are just a bit too wide, so they were ditched by airlines. I think 8 abreast on the A350 will be relegated to premium economy.

With the 777, Boeing went below the mid point, so 9 abreast ended up being the preferred format (this would have the effect of protecting the 747 from competition, which might have been on Boeing's mind). With the 787, I think Boeing is coming closer to the midpoint, so that there will be more airlines using the which ever layout is less popular format than with the 747 and 777. And probably more airlines will consider 4 class layouts, or mixed fleets.

I think the real question is what does this enable in the forward cabin for the premium classes.

Will be interesting to see what happens when they do the "industrial launch" of the A350 3 months from now....

Premium economy will definitely be 8-abreast..I can't see it as the standard 9 abreast.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
87dreamin
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:16 am

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 2):

Just for the record -- Gates didn't write the 747-8 pax story; Reuters is the agency that reported that. The desk at the Seattle Times tacked it onto the end of Dominic's story.
 
gigneil
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:37 am

Yay for misquoting.

It says needn't fret right away. There is a huge difference.

One means wait to see if Airbus can follow through.
The other means Airbus has nothing.

N
 
n844aa
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 7):
Yay for misquoting.

It says needn't fret right away. There is a huge difference.

There is indeed a huge difference. However, in Leelaw's defense, I suspect he was constrained by the limitations of the title input box. He provided an accurate summary in the body of his post.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:47 am

Here is the part that should still concern Airbus:

Move on, past the cocktail sausages.

Another senior industry figure agrees to be quoted, provided he is not identified.

The Airbus news conference, he said, "was a lot of show. They had to respond [to Boeing]. I'm not sure they'll be able to fulfill the product."

Sounds like there is stilla lack of confidence about Airbus ability to meet the numbers to me.
One Nation Under God
 
leelaw
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting 87dreamin (Reply 6):
ust for the record -- Gates didn't write the 747-8 pax story; Reuters is the agency that reported that. The desk at the Seattle Times tacked it onto the end of Dominic's story.

Oh, he indicated to me, in replying to my e-mail questioning the veracity of what
the "Times" was reporting about the gravamen of the earlier Reuters story, that it was his error...perhaps he was "taking one for the team." In any event, he certainly acted very promptly to correct the error once the inconsistency was brought to his attention.
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:54 am

I like that a couple of guys at a cocktail party are sufficient to represent the "industry".  Wink
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
I like that a couple of guys at a cocktail party are sufficient to represent the "industry".

Well considering the fact that these are the heavyweights of the industry, I would say they could.
One Nation Under God
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting 87dreamin (Reply 6):
Just for the record -- Gates didn't write the 747-8 pax story; Reuters is the agency that reported that. The desk at the Seattle Times tacked it onto the end of Dominic's story.

It's always interesting how things spread from source to source. One local Seattle tv website has been talking about the "180 passenger" Embraer 195 for days, and in two separate news pieces. You would think someone would be calling Boeing to see what they're going to do to compete  Smile.

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 7):
Yay for misquoting.

It says needn't fret right away. There is a huge difference.

One means wait to see if Airbus can follow through.
The other means Airbus has nothing.

I was thinking the same thing. I'm not really sure if there is much to the story, other than some initial reactions based on a PR blitz. If I were Boeing I'd be glad no one was raving, but I wouldn't feel too relaxed either.

-Dave
-Dave
 
leelaw
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 7):
Yay for misquoting.

It says needn't fret right away. There is a huge difference.

Good job picking-up on the nuance in language, I merely attempted to duplicate the gravamen of the original headline in the space allotted when I started the thread: "Industry says Boeing needn't fret over rival's bid to recover."
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Ken777
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:22 am

Airbus has 100 days to fill in enough blanks to get airlines really interested in the XWB. Until then the XWB is good for Airbus because it shows the potential customers that there will be a heavy investment in a new plane to compete with the 787.

It's going to be a morale boost for Airbus employees as well, probably motivating a lot of engineers to put in some extra hours to make the XWB a powerhouse.

Until the blanks are filled in, however, Boeing can wait on a costly response. Might be why they decision for a second production line has been pushed back to next year.

[Edited 2006-07-18 22:22:51]
 
kaneporta1
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:41 am

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 4):
I suspect the new A350's 8 abreast seating is going to be like 9 abreast on the 747. The 747 9 abreast configuration has wider seats than the 777, but they are just a bit too wide, so they were ditched by airlines. I think 8 abreast on the A350 will be relegated to premium economy.

Whatever all these "industry heavyweights" were discussing, the fact remains that customers asked for a true 3-3-3 A350 and this is what Airbus is going to give them. Unfortunately, we will only see the comfortable 2-4-2 config in premium economy from now on.
Anyhow, Boeing shouldn't be that "panicked", they already have plenty of orders for the 787. They will, however, get less than 70% of the market they currently have.
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
 
RIX
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:07 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 16):
true 3-3-3 A350

If A350 is only 3 inches wider than B787, I don't see how it is "more true" 3-3-3 than Boeing. It's less than 1 cm per seat for 9 abreast.

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 16):
[Boeing] will, however, get less than 70% of the market they currently have.

- yet to be seen. The new A350 can be eventually a headache for 773, but how are they going to compete to 787 being 4 years later and already less technologically advanced (unless they declare some radical changes in these 3 months) - all these numbers won't leave paper. It still looks like they'd better "take their time" and attack 777 same way as 787 attacked 330. While instead they again presented something "improved in-between".
 
lotsamiles
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:14 am

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 11):
I like that a couple of guys at a cocktail party are sufficient to represent the "industry".

ISTAT represents the majority of people who buy / sell / finance commercial aircraft. Thus the name: International Society of Transport Aircraft Traders.
Plenty of heavyweight airline management folks are also involved.

I can't think of a better place to take the pulse of the industry.

Lotsamiles
 
VirginFlyer
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:54 pm

Quoting RIX (Reply 17):
I don't see how it is "more true" 3-3-3 than Boeing.

It isn't. It is more of a true 3-3-3 abreast than the previous Airbus widebodies up to and including the first A350 concept. It is ironic really - many people thought Airbus had got it right with their 2-4-2 layout, to the extent that Boeing tried to outdo their 8-abreast layout on the 787, only to pretty much consign 8-abreast to history and/or premium economy...

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
leelaw
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:59 pm

Quoting Lotsamiles (Reply 18):
I can't think of a better place to take the pulse of the industry.

Very true. After all, it was at the annual ISTAT conference in Orlando that Mr. Udvar-Hazy "dropped the dime" on the "old all-new A350."

BTW, a colleague of mine who was in attendance tells me that some of the "old mandarins" at the party, who have seen many Leahy "dog and pony shows," were giggling about "Leahy, And The Angry Five Inches," as well as jokingly referring to "XWB" as "Xtra Wide Baloney."  Smile
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scouseflyer
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:14 pm

"""That's not a cheap proposition," said the executive. "The point is the airframe is not new; the bulk of the fuel efficiencies are in the engine."""


EH - the airframe is new - the whole dam thing's new?
 
BoomBoom
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:17 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 20):
The Angry Five Inches

What's that about?
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
grantcv
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting RIX (Reply 17):
yet to be seen. The new A350 can be eventually a headache for 773

How will the max 95,000lb thrust in the A350XBW's engines compete with the B773's 115,000lb thrust. That is a 20,000lb thrust difference isnt it? Surely the A350XBW would need something comparable?
 
columba
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:01 am

Apart from Udvar-Hazy´s comments and the announcement of EK not to decide on the 787 or A350XWB for another 6 months were there any other comments so far ?
I am wondering that LH has not said anything so far.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
leelaw
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 22):
Quoting Leelaw (Reply 20):
The Angry Five Inches

What's that about

I had to ask as well. It's a reference to the musical play/film "Hedwig and the Angry Inch" where the title character's botched sex-change surgery leaves "her" with nothing but a dysfunctional one-inch long mound of flesh between her legs. It's fairly funny if you understand the allusion.
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airfrnt
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:33 am

In the seattle papers this morning, Boeing is making noises about improvements to the 777 to compete with the 35010.
 
airmailer
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Thu Jul 20, 2006 1:41 am

Quoting Kaneporta1 (Reply 16):
Anyhow, Boeing shouldn't be that "panicked", they already have plenty of orders for the 787. They will, however, get less than 70% of the market they currently have.

Kaneporta1,
I assume that you excluded the market segment that Boeing will get 100% of since Airbus won't be offering anything to compete with the 739ER - 788 range.
No?
 
ikramerica
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:49 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 1):
""That's not a cheap proposition," said the executive. "The point is the airframe is not new; the bulk of the fuel efficiencies are in the engine.""

This was my question. If the efficiency comes from the engine, then Boeing can use those engines or other engines with the same technologies when available in 2015.

Airbus said that the 787 was all about the engines, yet they were wrong. Customers liked the efficiency, but also the design, and somehow Boeing was making a lighter aircraft that cost less to build.

Quoting AirFrnt (Reply 26):
In the seattle papers this morning, Boeing is making noises about improvements to the 777 to compete with the 35010.

They've got plenty of time to do so. 4 years just to make a decision on launch, as they really only need an EIS of 2014 to compete with the 359 and 35X.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:54 am

I'm so sick of this "777 killer" nonsense. Both aircraft will coexist. The T7 program will simply get upgraded by Boeing a few years from now to counter attack this new Airbus model. Trust me, the T7 is FAR from dead.
 
boeingbus
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:12 am

The biggest hurdle Airbus has is getting GE in the game and I really dont think they will do it, not yet at least. But I completely understand why GE would not want to... spend a billion for a plane that has credibility issues?? Maybe they are taking a wait and see approach.

as far as the 777 goes...

772 is obsolete.. all the 787-10 talk we wont see another significant order.

The 773ER is still a bigger plane still when comparing to the A350-1000, seats about 15 more, so all it needs is a makeover to make it just as efficient. I have this gut feeling it will happen a lot sooner than we all expect. There is talk to make to the 772LR lighter so why not do it across the board.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/277877_airshow18.html

"But Baseler noted that the A350-1000 will not be available for eight more years. By then, Boeing will have greatly improved its existing 777-300ER, which is its best-selling 777 model, he said. Airbus has aimed the A350-1000 at that plane."



-->However, I think Airbus will do very well to maintain its A330/40 customers as the A350XWB is really nice bird.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
Bicoastal
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RE: Industry Says Boeing Needn't Fret Over A350XWB

Thu Jul 20, 2006 9:16 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 15):
It's going to be a morale boost for Airbus employees as well, probably motivating a lot of engineers to put in some extra hours to make the XWB a powerhouse.

Extra hours? Remember, August is right around the corner. France shuts down for the month. Those Airbus engineers will soon board an Air France 777-300 for their God-given right to a month's holiday!
 Wink
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