PVD757
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DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:13 pm

here is the DL letter:

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p86/405614.pdf

here is NK throwing in the towel on the long talked about FLL-MEX route:

http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf97/405523_web.pdf
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:21 pm

Well, an application for SLC-MEX has long been overdue, however I am somewhat surprised by their application for MCO-MEX. We'll see how well that could work out. No other carriers applying, so should only be a matter of time till the DOT gives them those routes.
 
MSYtristar
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Tue Jul 18, 2006 11:23 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
We'll see how well that could work out

DL used to fly this route with a daily 757 back in the day. I'd say a 738 this time around.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:06 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
Well, an application for SLC-MEX has long been overdue,

Not the least bit surprised by this one since it has as pointed out long been anticipated. DL at SLC has flights to Puerto Vallarta, Cabo San Lucas, Manzallio, Mazatlan as well as Cancun all of the major resort areas popular with folks in the western USA/Canada, whereas MEX is more of a business and family to family type of destination. Question is, can this type of a flight work from SLC?
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
tinpusher007
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:24 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):
Not the least bit surprised by this one since it has as pointed out long been anticipated. DL at SLC has flights to Puerto Vallarta, Cabo San Lucas, Manzallio, Mazatlan as well as Cancun all of the major resort areas popular with folks in the western USA/Canada, whereas MEX is more of a business and family to family type of destination. Question is, can this type of a flight work from SLC?

Being a DL hub, I wouldn't think there would be any problems making this work. Im more surprised that they couldn't make LAX-MEX work and are now applying for MCO-MEX.
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anthsaun
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:35 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 3):
MEX is more of a business and family to family type of destination. Question is, can this type of a flight work from SLC?

Indeed, it will work. AM was doing the route, but the lack of aircrafts made it drop it. Another strong issue to drop it was because the only time AM could fly it the arrival time at SLC was too late for the immigration officers.

Do you happen to know how many Mexicans live in the Salt Lake City valley? Tons of them!!!

Besides that, I do MEX-SLC-MEX twice a year. And several of my friends go at least once a year. There are over 100,000 mormons in Mexico City and over a million mormons in the country.
Over 80 years in business say a lot about success
 
RCS763AV
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:45 am

Two airlines have given up on FLL-MEX, i wonder if a carrier with lower costs could do it, i mean if BOG-FLL is highly succesful and CCS-FLL was too, why cant the flight work from a city 3 times the size and 5 times richer?
 
Garri767
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:48 am

maybe a stopover in AMA on the way! i can see SLC-AMA-MEX. AND we have customs offices!  Wink)

(jk, we do have customs offices but a route like that would NEVER happen Big grin)


in all seriousness, i was hoping NK would get the route, but easy come easy go!


Garri767
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MAH4546
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:00 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 6):
Two airlines have given up on FLL-MEX, i wonder if a carrier with lower costs could do it, i mean if BOG-FLL is highly succesful and CCS-FLL was too, why cant the flight work from a city 3 times the size and 5 times richer?

There is no larger Mexican community in Florida. Miami is Mexico City's single largest O&D market in the US (yes, larger than LAX, because LAX' Mexico traffic is heavily disperssed throughout the country), but it is because it is such a huge business route. FLL has always had trouble luring business passengers.
'
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LAXintl
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 1):
MCO-MEX.

MCO-MEX has been flown on/off going back to Pan Am, United and Delta.

I find it interesting they are going for the route now after the MCO operation has been scaled back. Would have taught the route would have a better chance during the times MCO was hub for DL.

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 4):
Im more surprised that they couldn't make LAX-MEX work

Yes I agree with you on that one. Opened the door wide open for Alaska whom is running it twice daily with good results from what I hear.

The only remaining non-beach LA-Mexico destination is Guadalajara with a single daily flight. A weak presence going against 12 daily flights run by Mexicana, AeroMexico and Alaska.
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DeltaSFO
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:15 am

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 4):
Im more surprised that they couldn't make LAX-MEX work and are now applying for MCO-MEX.

LAX-MEX made money until the very last day Delta flew it. I understand they made a gentleman's agreement with AM, swapping LAX-MEX for ATL-MEX.

But I agree that dropping LAX-MEX was a mistake, especially now that Delta has apparently decided to build up LAX. Another old Western route bites the dust.
It's a new day. Every moment matters. Now, more than ever.
 
BigGSFO
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:21 am

Mexico City isn't always a guaranteed success. TWA had problems filling STL-MEX and MSY-MEX. I am a little skeptical of SLC-MEX, but more power to DL if they can make it work.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:42 am

Quoting Anthsaun (Reply 5):
Do you happen to know how many Mexicans live in the Salt Lake City valley? Tons of them!!!

Besides that, I do MEX-SLC-MEX twice a year. And several of my friends go at least once a year. There are over 100,000 mormons in Mexico City and over a million mormons in the country.

There is little doubt that the size of the LDS Faith in Mexico has contributed to a large Hispanic population in Salt Lake City. Yes, the LDS Faith is probably #2 in Mexico now behind the Roman Catholics. Mexico is likewise #2 behind the USA for LDS Church membership numbers. But many of these people are here working temporary/day laborer type jobs, can they afford such air-fare? Many also come here undocumented, won't they be afraid to deal with the Customs & Border Protection Officers in the E gates upon returning?
It sounds as if you work in a lay/leadership role for the LDS Faith in Mexico (Bishop or Stake President coming here twice a year for Conference in April & October). In your estimation does the LDS Church send down some official on a daily basis? What I think I'm trying to say and what BigGSFO above is trying to say, is there realistically enough business going on between Mexico City and Salt Lake City O&D (granted, a sizable chunk of this can come from Delta's massive feed into SLC from the hub) wise to justify this?
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ghost77
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:53 am

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 10):
LAX-MEX made money until the very last day Delta flew it. I understand they made a gentleman's agreement with AM, swapping LAX-MEX for ATL-MEX.

More than a gentleman's agreement, DL was loosing pax at LAX, during high season, route was making money but competition with MX/AM/JR/AS was tough!!! DL is now focusing on ATL-Mexico runs by opening thousands of new routes!!! Before that, AM was connecting a lot of pax thru MEX, which make DL restructure its bussiness plan to Mexico. DL decides to invade Mexico and AM simply lost the reason to fly to ATL. As for a SLC-MEX application, AM dropped the route because of their aircraft shortage and they had POOR schedule times, as route was doing ok.

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 11):
Mexico City isn't always a guaranteed success. TWA had problems filling STL-MEX and MSY-MEX. I am a little skeptical of SLC-MEX, but more power to DL if they can make it work.

Hmm this is weird! AFAIK, STL-MEX last flown with MD80s was a good route they even upgrade to daily B757-200s, then TW started to have problems and they started cutting routes but I think the route could work!!! MX might probably open it... as well as MSY... MSY was served by TW and MX for several continous years!!! Expect MX opening the route... they are going for 06 new airports in the US from July06-07.

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BigGSFO
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:56 am

STL-MEX was always with a MD80 IIRC. Also MSY-MEX had a tag to JFK and that flight was pulled before STL-MEX was. I also think at one point they added an intermediate stop between STL and MEX somewhere in Texas, although I could be wrong.
 
DeltaSFO
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 13):
More than a gentleman's agreement, DL was loosing pax at LAX, during high season, route was making money but competition with MX/AM/JR/AS was tough!!!

I'm sure DL's declining presence at LAX did affect the numbers, especially during the low season, but with a little foresight, they could have hung on to the route and would now be competing in the market with a better cost structure.

If the U.S. and Mexico can agree on liberalization of MEX route authorities, as they have with the coastal markets, I wouldn't be surprised to see DL re-enter the market. However, I don't know how likely that is. I imagine the Mexican government will want to protect MX and AM's position in the Mexico City-U.S. market.
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EddieDude
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 15):
If the U.S. and Mexico can agree on liberalization of MEX route authorities, as they have with the coastal markets, I wouldn't be surprised to see DL re-enter the market. However, I don't know how likely that is. I imagine the Mexican government will want to protect MX and AM's position in the Mexico City-U.S. market.

Well, going from 2 to 3 carriers per country per city pair is far from liberalization, but point taken.

I think SLC-MEX should work well for DL. Timing should be the aspect around which this route is built so as to allow for connecting opportunities.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:59 am

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 11):
Mexico City isn't always a guaranteed success.

MX never seems to make DEN/MEX work, even when they had the UA codeshare on the DEN end. I think it's mostly a timing issue and/or revenue management on MX's end. The average fare is high but that still doesn't make a load factor that starts with a 5 appealing. UA seems to be having a better run at it but it's only seasonal. I suspect SLC is very much the same, especially since DL and AM have fewer daily seats/departures than UA and MX at the respective airports. It could work but I'm not convinced by the prospects.
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dutchjet
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:01 am

Firstly, I think that the ethnic connections between two cities are overplayed here at a.net.....while ethnic VFR traffic can help a route, the VFR traffic is not the high yeild traffic that airlines need and want to make a route work and be profitable. If SLC-MEX is to work, DL needs a good amont of business passengers and higher-yeilding leisure passengers travelling in both directions; the VFR crowd will help fill seats during the holiday and summer periods when business travel decreases.

SLC-MEX should be a winner for Delta, its long overdue. SLC is well positioned as a hub to distribute passengers travelling between the Pacific Northwest & the Mountain States and Mexico City. I would think that DL could keep the airplanes filled simply with passengers who would like to avoid connecting at LAX: PDX-SLC-MEX sound better to me than PDX-LAX-MEX for example. As for MCO-MEX......as pointed out above, this route has been attempted by several airlines including DL itself in the past and for whatever reason airlines dropped service; Orlando has matured into a huge year-round destination: my guess is that with DL's new emphasis on international services, it will find success on this route this time around as well. Even if MEX-MCO is filled with primarily leisure travellers, its certainly not the $79 crowd so the yeild should be more than adquate.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:12 am

AM also operated MEX/SLC twice a week from December 2001 through December 2004, and then thrice weekly through June 2005 where it was pulled down and out of the schedule by September 2005.
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PVD757
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:20 am

I'm wondering if NK will open places like SXM and/or the eastern coast of Central America instead. The FLL-MEX application has quite a history of twists and turns for them to just all of a sudden not want to do it at all...
 
DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:42 am

What I find interesting is that DL is proposing daily service to MCO, but only 4x weekly service to SLC. If anything, one would expect to be just the other way around. Planes used will be 738s of course, just like around 90% of all their other Mexico routes  Silly .
 
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mariner
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:06 am

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 10):
I understand they made a gentleman's agreement with AM, swapping LAX-MEX for ATL-MEX.

I'm not sure what you mean. The DOT controls the authorities on a use it or lose it basis.

Delta had ATL-MEX and LAX-MEX and - in effect - they gave one away. I'm not sure what value any "gentleman's agreement" would have?

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 18):
SLC-MEX should be a winner for Delta, its long overdue.

It's interesting that United keeps DEN-MEX as seasonal (skiers?) and without the subsidy from DIA it is unlikely that Mexicana would have started that route. Frontier jumped for GDL as their first "non-resort" destination in Mexico, not MEX.

And maybe I'm wrong, but didn't one airline cancel DFW-MEX recently?

So DAL767400ER makes an interesting statement:

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 21):
DL is proposing daily service to MCO, but only 4x weekly service to SLC.

Question: Is MEX the honey pot that everyone thinks?

mariner
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DeltaSFO
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:17 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
I'm not sure what you mean. The DOT controls the authorities on a use it or lose it basis.

Delta had ATL-MEX and LAX-MEX and - in effect - they gave one away. I'm not sure what value any "gentleman's agreement" would have?

Delta agreed to drop LAX-MEX, ceding all Skyteam traffic on the route to Aeromexico. AM agreed to drop ATL-MEX, ceding all Skyteam traffic on the route to DL. Previously, both carriers operated both routes.
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dutchjet
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
Delta had ATL-MEX and LAX-MEX and - in effect - they gave one away. I'm not sure what value any "gentleman's agreement" would have?

Excellent Point......DL simply lost the valuable LAX-MEX authority when it stopped flying LAX-MEX with its own equipment, not a wise move.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
Question: Is MEX the honey pot that everyone thinks?

Another excellent question......while I was taught never to answer a question with a question: how can it not be?
 
MCOflyer
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:23 am

If they do MCO-MEX, im on that flt.

MCOflyer
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mariner
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 23):
Delta agreed to drop LAX-MEX, ceding all Skyteam traffic on the route to Aeromexico.

I understand that part of the equation. It doesn't seem to fit in with Delta's present "route grab" from Los Angeles to Mexico, though.

You have to think that LAX-MEX might be a tad more valuable than LAX-LAP. And given how hard Delta is fighting to overturn the DOT ruling on LAX-SJD, that gentlemen's agreement must be a real humdinger.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 24):
how can it not be?

I don't, Dutchjet. When DIA offered a million bucks to start DEN-MEX I thought airlines would leap at it, but only Mexicana took the bait, and that took a while. I don't know what the traffic is like now, but originally there was some doubt if they would extend the servive beyond the subsidy.

I believe that a lot of Mexican traffic is very specific as to both its origin and its destination. When I lived in the Russian River area, most all of the Hispanics connected themselves more with Leon/Morelia than Mexico City.

So then you have to wonder why Mexicana started FAT-GDL and not FAT-MEX.

It has been suggested that the Chihuahua area is "that point of contact" for most Mexicans in Denver - that DEN-CUU (say) might be more valuable than DEN-MEX.

I don't know where the SLC communities regard as "the point of contact", but the theory is that if you can identify that connection you will do well.

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DeltaSFO
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:24 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
I understand that part of the equation. It doesn't seem to fit in with Delta's present "route grab" from Los Angeles to Mexico, though.

You have to think that LAX-MEX might be a tad more valuable than LAX-LAP. And given how hard Delta is fighting to overturn the DOT ruling on LAX-SJD, that gentlemen's agreement must be a real humdinger.

I agree completely, which is why I think it was a huge mistake.
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LAXintl
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:49 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 24):
DL simply lost the valuable LAX-MEX authority when it stopped flying LAX-MEX with its own equipment, not a wise move.



Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
You have to think that LAX-MEX might be a tad more valuable than LAX-LAP.

Its pretty obvious DL did not try hard to keep LAX-MEX. After all service operated with B757s, and could have been reduced to 738s or even down to only once per week if it was truly interested in keeping the authority.

To think back WA operated something like 3-4 daily LAX-MEX trips including even DC-10 service at times!

Since DL dropping the route AS has jumped in with twice daily service so far.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
I believe that a lot of Mexican traffic is very specific as to both its origin and its destination.

This is amazingly true. Outside of large metro area like LA which can support service to near every Mexican destination, the Mexican population in the US are seemingly from specific pockets of regions in Mexico.

I've always found it interesting how there become sizable pools of migrants from very specific small areas of Mexico. For instance in the CA Central Valley there are large pools of folks from the Central Mexican states Michoacan, Jalisco, Zacatecas while in other areas there are pools of folks from Northern more states such as Chihuahua or Durango.

In addition while they might be all "Mexicans" each group has unique identifying traits including food and music.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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mariner
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:56 am

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 28):
Its pretty obvious DL did not try hard to keep LAX-MEX.

For what it is worth, I think there was a massive U turn in thinking about Mexico at Delta, and it seems - stress "seems" - to date from around the time Mr. Grinstein became CEO.

Otherwise, it doesn't really make sense. Such LAX-ACA, which they had, from Western, then dropped, and then applied for again.

Quoting Laxintl (Reply 28):
In addition while they might be all "Mexicans" each group has unique identifying traits including food and music.

 checkmark 

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MaverickM11
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 10):
I understand they made a gentleman's agreement with AM, swapping LAX-MEX for ATL-MEX.

I don't know how that would be possible since if DL relinquished the LAX/MEX authority it would instantly be requested by a US competitor. Before the latest round of bilateral-loosening, any city pair had two US and two Mexican allocations, so there would be no way for DL to transfer a route allocation to AM or vice versa.
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EddieDude
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:56 am

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 13):
MSY was served by TW and MX for several continous years!!!

I did not know about MX. I knew AM did MEX-CUN-MSY (I flew it in C with my parents once and it was a great experience). I'd love to see AM go back to MSY rather than MX.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
Question: Is MEX the honey pot that everyone thinks?

Maybe not to everybody. To some (like the European carriers), it is a huge, honey pot. I guess it works wonderfully for LA, CM and AV (and worked well for RG). Maybe for AC it is a great station too. As for U.S. and Mexican carriers flying XXX (U.S.)-MEX, it really depends on the city pair. Certainly MIA-MEX, JFK-MEX, ORD-MEX and LAX-MEX are winner routes, but AM could not make DFW-MEX work after the move to the new DFW terminal... BOS-MEX is also not performing well for AM due to scheduling (in my opinion).
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:48 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 31):
BOS-MEX is also not performing well for AM due to scheduling (in my opinion).

There isn't a market for such a long thin route. I never understood why they entered it in the first place.
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worldtraveler
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:06 pm

While many of DL's route changes such as dropping LAX-MEX were pretty recent, the change in DL's network strategy has been nothing short of dramatic. I'm sure DL wish they had that route back but they have to work w/ what they have.

DL and AM do not have antitrust immunity and cannot have any agreements about dropping any route until it is publicly made.
 
ghost77
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 3:56 pm

Quoting BigGSFO (Reply 14):
STL-MEX was always with a MD80 IIRC. Also MSY-MEX had a tag to JFK and that flight was pulled before STL-MEX was. I also think at one point they added an intermediate stop between STL and MEX somewhere in Texas, although I could be wrong.

STL-MEX service was started with MD80s, during the high seasons it was upgraded to B757s and later downgraded with MD80s and then TW started having serious financial problems before the merger whit AA and decided to end the route. Indeed, flight was JFK-MSY-MEX and always flown with MD80 service but somehow they couldn't make it work.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 15):
If the U.S. and Mexico can agree on liberalization of MEX route authorities, as they have with the coastal markets, I wouldn't be surprised to see DL re-enter the market. However, I don't know how likely that is. I imagine the Mexican government will want to protect MX and AM's position in the Mexico City-U.S. market.

They will!!! With all this 1978 deregulation we are having down here, by 2011/2012 we might be able to see 3rd city pairs from each side. Mexican carriers by then will be ready to go face to face with US and Canadian carriers. The only limit I see will be MEX which I'm sure TLC will be included as one airport just as JFK/EWR and ORD/MDW.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 22):
And maybe I'm wrong, but didn't one airline cancel DFW-MEX recently?

AeroMexico, while MX is back flying MEX-DFW.

Quoting DeltaSFO (Reply 23):
Delta agreed to drop LAX-MEX, ceding all Skyteam traffic on the route to Aeromexico. AM agreed to drop ATL-MEX, ceding all Skyteam traffic on the route to DL. Previously, both carriers operated both routes.

They didn't agree anything! The two movements are just a coincidence. LAX wasn't working for DL and they didn't care for the route except during high seasons. AM just keep the route because they won't give more to MX or anyother!!!

DL has also recently attacked by announcing hundreds of new destinations to Mexico from ATL which will affect AM's MEX hub, and in return AM won't stupidly compete with DL on MEX-ATL... they simply can't keep 2X with B752s as they once flew!!!

AM is also suffering from fleet shortage and lack of money to increase it's fleet, more over, LCC's are starting to flood the domestic market, AeroMexico's ONLY strengh. AM will also stop feeding DL with ATL-Europe outbound pax. But DL will be affecting more AM!!!

Quoting Mariner (Reply 26):
It has been suggested that the Chihuahua area is "that point of contact" for most Mexicans in Denver - that DEN-CUU (say) might be more valuable than DEN-MEX.

Interesting!!! A CUU-DEN would be a surprise to see!!!

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 31):
I did not know about MX. I knew AM did MEX-CUN-MSY (I flew it in C with my parents once and it was a great experience). I'd love to see AM go back to MSY rather than MX.

MX flew MEX-MSY. AM did MEX-CUN-MSY. And at the end I think MX also did CUN-MSY. MX and AM had very similiar routes out from CUN to the US and using Dc10s!!!

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 31):
BOS-MEX is also not performing well for AM due to scheduling (in my opinion).

AM did pretty well in the 80s!!! I also think that the schedule is killing the route!!!!

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 33):
DL and AM do not have antitrust immunity and cannot have any agreements about dropping any route until it is publicly made.

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ghooost77 APM
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MSYtristar
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:29 pm

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 34):
MX flew MEX-MSY. AM did MEX-CUN-MSY. And at the end I think MX also did CUN-MSY

MX never flew into MSY on a scheduled basis. AM started MSY flying in 1992 with a daily M80 to both CUN and MEX. They left in '00 or '01 I believe...all that was left was two weekly flights to CUN at the time.

Quoting Ghost77 (Reply 34):
Indeed, flight was JFK-MSY-MEX and always flown with MD80 service but somehow they couldn't make it work

It didn;t work for two reasons:

1) Lack of significant through traffic from JFK to MEX.
2) Poor departure time from MSY at 8:30pm with an 11:00pm arrival into MEX.

TW averaged 72 passengers per flight who boarded the plane in MSY...not terrible considering the lousy departure time.
 
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:15 am

Well, the DOT worked rather fast this time, as they have already granted both routes to Delta:
http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/pdf97/406700_web.pdf
 
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mariner
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:24 am

It's Delta monopoly time again, folks.  Smile

Delta is at it again, locking out any possibility of competition between SLC-GDL.

http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.c...m?documentid=406673&docketid=25495

The application for SLC-GDL is on behalf of both Delta and Skywest.

The other applications are for MZT and and SJD, where Delta cannot achieve a monopoly, because the bilateral was changed to allow three US carriers to service the resorts.

But GDL is one of the inland cities where only two US carriers are allowed to service a city pair.

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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 37):
Delta is at it again, locking out any possibility of competition between SLC-GDL.

http://dms.dot.gov/search/document.c...m?documentid=406673&docketid=25495

The application for SLC-GDL is on behalf of both Delta and Skywest.

Well, it's not exactly like other carriers are knocking down the DOT's door to serve GDL from SLC!
 
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:53 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 38):
Well, it's not exactly like other carriers are knocking down the DOT's door to serve GDL from SLC!

That, and as the docket states, a third carrier slot will become available in late 2007.
 
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:03 am

Quoting Panamair (Reply 38):
Well, it's not exactly like other carriers are knocking down the DOT's door to serve GDL from SLC!

Delta had no interest in the Mexican resorts from SLC until Frontier started SLC-CUN and Delta didn't apply for SLC-PVR until after Frontier did.

Then Delta moved - sewing up, as a monopoly - several resorts, and promising daily, year round, service (LAX-CUN) which hasn't happen.

Not to mention the Delta/Skywest games over LAX-GDL. And I am sure - sure - that it is just coincidence that Frontier has just been granted DEN-GDL.

Sure, I'm sure.  Smile

This present Delta move is entirely legal - and entirely anti-competitive. The DOT must almost certainly grant it - two seperate AOC's - but this does not stop the DOT from working with Mexico to restore competitiveness.

It was never the intention of the bilateral to allow monopoly control of any routes and this was one of the main reasons the bilateral was changed.

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LAXintl
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:05 am

I also wonder where the promised and awarded LAX-CZM service is?
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting Mariner (Reply 40):
Not to mention the Delta/Skywest games over LAX-GDL. And I am sure - sure - that it is just coincidence that Frontier has just been granted DEN-GDL.

Sure, I'm sure.

I guess DL applying for MCO-MEX must be because of Frontier too.  Yeah sure
I guess DL flying CVG-SJD must be because of Frontier too.  Yeah sure
I guess DL flying JFK-PVR must be because of Frontier too.  Yeah sure

DL is expanding service from all its hubs to Mexico and it has little to do with Frontier. And honestly, do you really think F9 (or any other airline) is going to fly SLC-GDL?

Quoting Mariner (Reply 40):
This present Delta move is entirely legal - and entirely anti-competitive. The DOT must almost certainly grant it - two seperate AOC's - but this does not stop the DOT from working with Mexico to restore competitiveness.

DL didn't negotiate the bilateral. If F9 has a beef, take it up with the DOT for their stupidity in considering ASA/SkyWest/Republic as real stand alone airlines.
 
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:22 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
I guess DL applying for MCO-MEX must be because of Frontier too.

Why? I don't think Frontier has any interest in that route.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
I guess DL flying CVG-SJD must be because of Frontier too.

Why? I don't think that Frontier has any interest in that route - or in CVG.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
I guess DL flying JFK-PVR must be because of Frontier too.

Why? I don't think Frontier has any interest in that route. Or in JFK.

I only cite those instances where it has happened.  Smile

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
And honestly, do you really think F9 (or any other airline) is going to fly SLC-GDL?

If it such a desirable route, why not? Frontier flies SLC-CUN and applied for and got (but gave back) SLC-PVR.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
If F9 has a beef,

This is my complaint, not theirs, and I don't represent Frontier. I have no idea if they have a beef with Delta.

I'm the one with the beef.

I dislike monopolies, and I particularly dislike Delta's present games with the DOT.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
for their stupidity in considering ASA/SkyWest/Republic as real stand alone airlines.

If the airline has a separate AOC, then how else would you suggest they do it? Legally, they are separate airlines.

If you regard the law as stupid, write your Congressman. The DOT enforces law, it does not enact law.

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DAL767400ER
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:24 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 43):
If it such a desirable route, why not?

Because it's only desirable for a carrier that has a hub at one end  Wink .

Quoting Mariner (Reply 43):
and I particularly dislike Delta's present games with the DOT.

Delta playing games with DOT? In what way exactly?
And really, if you want to call names, ask Delta what they think of the DOT stating month after month that Delta's US-China proposal was clearly the best proposal together with CO, only to suddenly change opinions and give it to AA. That's the DOT way of playing games.
 
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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:48 pm

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 44):
Because it's only desirable for a carrier that has a hub at one end

You mean like - oh, I dunno - F9's SLC-CUN?  Smile

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 44):
Delta playing games with DOT? In what way exactly?

Just for starters - one of the Delta Connection airlines applying for LAX-GDL - for which no authority was available - and saying that if successful, Delta (mainline) would give up the route so an authority would become available.

Can you say collusion?

I have no idea what happened with the China route, it is a long way outside my area of interest, but if Delta's case was so strong - and if the DOT had said so - why wasn't there a major appeal?

It is unlike Continental to take these things lying down, and Delta is, as we know from very recent filings, not shy of objecting to the DOT in the strongest terms.

Quoting DAL767400ER (Reply 44):
if you want to call names,

Who am I calling names? I am saying I don't like what Delta is doing.

I recognize that what they are doing is probably entirely legal, and they may win. I accept that.

But that doesn't mean I have to like it. Or to shut up about it.

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RE: DL Seeks MCO/SLC-MEX; NK Gives Up On FLL-MEX

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:07 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 45):
why wasn't there a major appeal?

There was a major appeal by Delta, but the DOT didn't give a f*ck, stating that they carefully examined the applications and that after all it would be better to add a competitor on an already exisiting route than starting up a whole new market.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 45):
It is unlike Continental to take these things lying down,

Remember that CO got their flight, and they don't really care too much for Delta  Wink .

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