PPVRA
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Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Thu Jul 20, 2006 8:04 am

Quote:
São José dos Campos, July 19, 2006 – Embraer today announced that it will offer

EMBRAER 170/190 family aircraft in high-capacity variants as a response to the growing interest among airlines, which are focused on maximizing their revenue potential in specific markets.

No structural changes or new testing will be necessary to certify the new EMBRAER 170/190 configurations, which are specified below.

Link with more info:

http://www.defesanet.com.br/rv/farnb...gh_06/3_embraer_high_density_e.htm

Great news for the airlines. I wonder if FlyBe has anything to do with this or wether they can convert their orders to the HD config. E195?

Also, Embraer is reporting that the E190/5 have shown to have 3% greater fuel efficiency as a result of improved manufacturing technics and reduced drag. More info here:

http://www.embraer.com.br/institucio...-190_and_195_Improvements-I-06.pdf

Cheers
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tinpusher007
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RE: Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:00 pm

well, i'd say there goes the comfort these birds are known for. time to pack em in like sardines in the name of profits.
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lightsaber
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RE: Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:17 pm

High density is relative

E170 goes from 78 seats to 80 seats... What, was a galley moved?
E175 goes from 86 to 88...

One *half* row. So comfort isn't realy compromised on the smaller e-jets

E190 goes from 108 to 114. Ok, one more row... But I thing the 99 or 100 seat configuration will remain the popular choice on this E-jet.

E195 goes from 118 to 122. This, for Flybe, makes a ton of sense to me.

One row... whew! I was expecting to see a 28" pitch version with 130 pax in the E195! These look like they'll be 29" or 30" pitches. Any confirmation?

Lightsaber
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Arrow
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RE: Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:32 pm

This is really interesting. A story in the latest issue of Airways (mostly about Horizon/q400) says that Bombardier claims that in terms of seat-mile costs the CRJ900 "beats the E190 on most stages. To achieve the same figures, ten more seats would have to be installed in the E190."

I'm sure there's lots of Bombardier puffery in that claim, but this looks like at least a partial response from Embraer to counter that threat. But adding seats in this fashion also detracts somewhat from the Embraers' main selling advantage over the crj900 -- superior comfort.
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DAYflyer
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RE: Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Thu Jul 20, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 2):
E195 goes from 118 to 122. This, for Flybe, makes a ton of sense to me.

I think you will now see increased interest from US carriers. This is now an attractive aircraft for the short haul, low freuency, low O & D markets like DAY.
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emseeeye
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RE: Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:10 am

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 4):
I think you will now see increased interest from US carriers

Maybe this is WN's 100 seater they are looking at?
 
gilesdavies
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RE: Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:18 am

Im sure FlyBE would have had something to do with this, and applied the pressure to Embraer to try and get them to certify the aircraft with an extra row of seats. Esspecially with fuel prices continuing to rise!

You can almost guarantee they will adding the extra row of seats!

FlyBE's legroom is not good at the best of times with 29-30inch seat pitch... Another pressures inch of legroom taken away!
 
JobsaGoodun
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RE: Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Reply 6):
FlyBE's legroom is not good at the best of times with 29-30inch seat pitch... Another pressures inch of legroom taken away!

The only aircraft with a 29" pitch in the Flybe fleet is the AEU 737's. Generally Flybe's legroom is superior to other LCC's at 31" average. This should remain about the same with the E195, even in 118 config.
 
CRJ900
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RE: Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:03 am

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 2):
One *half* row. So comfort isn't realy compromised on the smaller e-jets

Well, people here complain like mad about the "cramped 31 inch pitch Y-seating" on most airliners'... widebody or single-aisle. It won't take long before the "comfortable" is replaced with "cramped" for the E-jets too.

US Airways will start it off with 88 seats @ 31" pitch in their new E190s. Also one can wonder how the cabin service will be on two-class E190s as only two FAs will be onboard (one of the E190's main selling points). One FA will be occupied with 10-11 F-customers while the other FA must rush through the Y-cabin to serve all 88. I can hear the announcement: "I request all Y-pax to siddown and shuddup while your dedicated FA offer you an abbreviated beverage service of half a can of cola per pax - no special requests, please!"

120 seats on the E195 will make it a great 737-200/500 replacement, I'd say...
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aeroplan73
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RE: Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:11 am

Quoting Arrow (Reply 3):
I'm sure there's lots of Bombardier puffery in that claim, but this looks like at least a partial response from Embraer to counter that threat.

Perhaps it's time for Bombardier to develop the C Series to really take on Embraer.
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planemaker
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RE: Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:50 am

Quoting Arrow (Reply 3):
I'm sure there's lots of Bombardier puffery in that claim, but this looks like at least a partial response from Embraer to counter that threat. But adding seats in this fashion also detracts somewhat from the Embraers' main selling advantage over the crj900 -- superior comfort.

It is not puffery... it is misinformation. And no, this is not a CASM issue. While it is true that the CRJ-900 has slightly better TRIP COSTS than the E-175 the E-175 has better CASM figures. And the CRJ-900 is not even close to the E190 in CASM... let alone trip revenue.

BTW, Even with the same pitch (which the airline choses) the E-jets are still considerably more comfortable than the CRJ.

Quoting Aeroplan73 (Reply 9):
Perhaps it's time for Bombardier to develop the C Series to really take on Embraer.

Unfortunately it is a non-starter.
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Tangowhisky
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RE: Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Sat Jul 22, 2006 3:52 am

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 8):
120 seats on the E195 will make it a great 737-200/500 replacement, I'd say...

Don't forget inefficient Avro RJs



Quoting Aeroplan73 (Reply 9):
Perhaps it's time for Bombardier to develop the C Series to really take on Embraer.

Yeap, but do you know what is holding up the C Series? No customers!!!!

TW
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aeroplan73
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RE: Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Sat Jul 22, 2006 4:51 am

Quoting Tangowhisky (Reply 11):
Yeap, but do you know what is holding up the C Series? No customers!!!!

Oh, just that? lol

It seems to me that the market is there for that size of jet, so I wonder why it's a non-starter.
I remember, the choices were chicken or fish. I had the lasagna.
 
Tangowhisky
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RE: Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting Aeroplan73 (Reply 12):
It seems to me that the market is there for that size of jet, so I wonder why it's a non-starter.

"TRUST" by the market and suppliers that Bombardier's C Series wont end up being an interim plane when Boeing and Airbus come up with their narrowbody replacements. There is also the talk about an engine by PWC, but nothing concrete. Don't forget that Boeing are saying they wont launch the 737 replacement before the new engines are ready (so how could Bombardier?, it would be like the L1011 program or the original 747 program where the late engines alomost killed Lockheed and Boeing). One other reason is Bombardier's shakey financial position that further makes potential customers and risk sharing partners skeptics. Results in inability to finance the program by issuing more equity (the stock is $3, used to be $25 5 years ago), and issuing debt is expensive as the company's credit rating is rated at Speculative.

IMO the only way Bombardier could pull it off would be through some truly innovative design concepts. Then the risk takers would jump in. But there is nothing innovative about the C Series, just the same old tired ideas.
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We're Nuts
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RE: Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:43 am

Big deal, the CRJ was high-density since day one.
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KELPkid
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RE: Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:43 am

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 5):
Maybe this is WN's 100 seater they are looking at?

Why wouldn't WN be looking at the 736? I know the economics aren't great, but WN values commonality above all else.
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Tangowhisky
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RE: Embraer Offers High-density E-jets

Sat Jul 22, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 15):
WN values commonality above all else.

Southwest values economics above all else. Commonality is a factor in economics, just like quick turnaround times, minimal gate numbers per airport, high aircraft utilization, etc.
Only the paranoid survive