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Stitch
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SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:56 am

As the current thread has just been locked due to length of responses, time for part two.

************

Quoting RichardPrice:

My point was that its another thing to consider when deciding which aircraft to buy...In short, is the extra comfort saleable enough to offset the higher costs on side by side new aircraft? I think you will agree that if Airbuses figures come anywhere close to what they have touted this past week, the answer to that question will be 'bloody hell no!'.

You are probably correct, at least in regards to many operators when it comes to decision time.

Quoting Zvezda:

On the other hand, between the A350 and the B787, I don't think the B777 has a lot of life left except as a freighter and the niche B777-200LR.

I do agree the 777-200 and 777-200ER are not "long for this world" once the A350-900 and 787-10 enter commercial service, but it will depend on how Airbus can position the A350-1000 in terms of performance and capabilities to determine if the 777-300 (especially) and 777-300ER are sent to the "boneyard", as well.

[Edited 2006-07-23 05:02:13]
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:29 pm

From www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/2891098/

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Actually it only took one day for Airbus to disburse bad news.

Mariner wrote:
Airbus announced this yesterday?

PlanesNTrains replies:

I wasn't vouching for WHEN Airbus said it, but rather THAT Airbus said it. In other words, don't blame the messenger.

________________________

Also Mariner, you took issue with this comment I made:

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 252):
In other words, I don't see it as "Wow! The A380 rocks!"

And you replied:

"So, in review: the launch customer increases its order prior ro EIS - despite anger provoking delays, massive negative press and ample opportunity to cancel with very few penalties.

I am not given to over-statement, but in this case, given the above, it might be possible to suggest - only "suggest" - that perhaps - stress "perhaps" - the A380 might be capable of rocking.

Don't you think?"

Well, first of all, I said "In other words, I don't see it as a "Wow! The A380 rocks!" - PERIOD. The "PERIOD" being left off (I'm sure inadvertantly) changed the meaning of what I was saying into an absolute.

My point was that there are a number of factors that MAY have played into the A380 decision besides just the "WOW" factor. I listed them, and didn't give any of them more or less value than another, and I certainly wasn't bashing either Airbus as a whole or the A380 specifically.

And what's up with the "Don't you think?" salutation in both of your replies to me? It seems a little condescending, or is it just part of your signature now? If it's meant as sarcasm, I'm more than happy to exchange viewpoints without it.

-Dave
-Dave
 
zvezda
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:54 pm

Quoting Stitch (Thread starter):
it will depend on how Airbus can position the A350-1000 in terms of performance and capabilities to determine if the 777-300 (especially) and 777-300ER are sent to the "boneyard", as well.

It would be surprising if the A350-1000 didn't decisively beat the B777-300ER in CASM. I think the only advantage the latter has is near-term availability.
 
columba
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:37 pm

I have not read the whole first thread since I was not at my computer very often during the last days - had to work a lot and rather spend my free time at the lake than on the internet  Wink so excuse if this had come up before:

Since SQ has opt for additional A380 how are the chances that they will buy 747-8Is ? They will have a mixed A350 and 787 fleet so why no A380/747F fleet if they can fill these planes.
Would they have a need for the 747-8F ?

Will there be other airlines follow the example of SQ and operate the A350 and 787 side by side - maybe Lufthansa or some Asian carriers ? Air France could be doing that since they already operate 777s and A340s together.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
aGreatWayToFly
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:13 pm

BTW, how many 744s are left in SQ's fleet? When is the last 744 set to be phased out?
 
Rj111
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:16 pm

Might have been mentioned already but i assume the A330s be A) brand new and B) use Trent 700's?

Please correct if wrong.  Smile
 
gunsontheroof
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:37 pm

I'm afraid I don't see where the A330 fits into this. It isn't really filling a gap in SQ's fleet, and they'll be recieving 787s in fairly short order...are they planning on replacing A340s to save costs?
 
zvezda
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:54 pm

Quoting Columba (Reply 3):

Since SQ has opt for additional A380 how are the chances that they will buy 747-8Is ?

It's a bit difficult to imagine more than 19 VLA in SQ's fleet, but I suppose it's possible. Don't forget they also have 19 B777-300ERs on order.

Quoting Columba (Reply 3):
Would they have a need for the 747-8F ?

Yes, very much so.

Quoting AGreatWayToFly (Reply 4):
BTW, how many 744s are left in SQ's fleet? When is the last 744 set to be phased out?

SQ currently have 27 JumboJets in passenger operations. The last one is scheduled to be retired in 2011.
 
Leskova
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:59 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 6):
I'm afraid I don't see where the A330 fits into this. It isn't really filling a gap in SQ's fleet, and they'll be recieving 787s in fairly short order...are they planning on replacing A340s to save costs?

The A330s are a more economical short- to medium-haul people mover than the B777-200ER is, that's what these birds are for - on medium length segments the difference might not be that large, but it still could make the difference between a slightly profitable and a slightly loss making flight... or it could be the difference between profits and large profits...  Wink

Although I do have to admit that I'm somewhat puzzled by the A330s arriving only in 2009/2010 - but, then again, I'm quite sure SQ knows what they're doing.

As for the A340s - while I certainly hope they'll stay, it really remains to be seen... as Antares noted in part 1 of this thread, something might be brewing in that area... so perhaps we'll know soon.
Smile - it confuses people!
 
SIN_SQ
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:06 pm

):

A330 is used as interim planes from 2009 to the first delivery of A350-900 XBW in 2012. So these A330 will have lifespan of serving with SIA for at least 5 years before they are completely replaced by A350 as all A330s are leased.

A340-500 are still with SIA as these are still the suitable planes to serve US cities from Singapore to take advantage of open skies between US and Singapore although we have B777-200LR. SIA has to be convinced that B777-200LR has to ply both ways non-stop without any technical stop.

This also explained why Emirates and Thai Airways use A340-500 to do these long range flights although Boeing has been promoting B777-200 LR to the clients aggressively.

[Edited 2006-07-23 12:07:59]
 
ZRH
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:20 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
It would be surprising if the A350-1000 didn't decisively beat the B777-300ER in CASM.

Yes, of course. When you build a new plane it has to be better than the older direct competitors, otherwise it does not make any sense. When the 350-1000 comes into service the 777-300ER will already be an relatively old aircraft.
 
leelaw
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:27 pm

Quoting SIN_SQ (Reply 9):
A340-500 are still with SIA as these are still the suitable planes to serve US cities from Singapore to take advantage of open skies between US and Singapore although we have B777-200LR. SIA has to be convinced that B777-200LR has to ply both ways non-stop without any technical stop.

I don't think there's any question the 777LR can perform SQ's ULR missions without making technical stops, while also delivering a substantially higher payload. The question is whether it's worthwhile making the change, if versions of the 787 and/or A350 will be assigned the ULR missions in the not too distant future. One thing working in favor of the 772LR is that it shares engine commonality with the 773ER.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
antares
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:36 pm

Leskova,

My thoughts about the 777-200LR are purely based on observation.

When the suggestion of a short term lease for interim lift began to circulate in Singapore earlier in the year, they specifically identified a proposal for A330s.

However that suggestion was coupled to a similar lease for up to 14 new higher rated A345s that would allow a doubling of the non-stop to USA services plus the opening of some new cities, starting with San Francisco.

It is my view that Singapore Airlines would wring every last dollar of leverage out of this situation by pitting the higher gross weight A345s against the 777-200LR.

Therefore Boeing is still in with a chance. It will come down to willingness to deal. Or that part of the 'suggestion' wasn't proceded with. We should know reasonably soon. I wouldn't be astonished at a buy of some A330F either, for effective short to medium range lift around the region.

Singapore Airlines plays cards hard against chest. I am unaware of any recent 'suggestions' that cast any further light on its immediate plans.

Antares
 
Leskova
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:43 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 12):
My thoughts about the 777-200LR are purely based on observation.

I'm aware of that - I just thought that you made quite a compelling arguement, whether it will come to anything or not... it was nice to, for once, read some speculation around here based on something else than "those planes kick ass" or "that livery would be gorgeous on those planes"...  Wink
Smile - it confuses people!
 
pavlin
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:28 pm

Maybe the A350 wont be so direct competitor to the 787 as advertised.
The Airbus knows it has almost no chances in direct combat with 787.
 
CYatUK
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 14):
Maybe the A350 wont be so direct competitor to the 787 as advertised.
The Airbus knows it has almost no chances in direct combat with 787.

I wouldn't think so.

Airbus will have the advantage to see the real B787 flying before their A350 flies hence they will be able to carry out enhancements to make it better.
CY@Uk
 
SEAPlane10
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:07 pm

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 15):
Airbus will have the advantage to see the real B787 flying before their A350 flies hence they will be able to carry out enhancements to make it better.

Could you carry this logic even further....Boeing will have the advantage of having its airplane out first and have the ability to make continual improvements on it that by the time the A350 starts flying, the 787 has already been significantly upgraded?

I am not trying to be contentious. I really just can't see how either manufacturer could really have any advantage. Each time something new gets introduced, one producer has the "advantage"; that is until the other decides to introduce something...and the cycle continues...  Smile
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:46 pm

Quoting SIN_SQ (Reply 9):
This also explained why Emirates and Thai Airways use A340-500 to do these long range flights although Boeing has been promoting B777-200 LR to the clients aggressively.

And EK has purchased the 772LR.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
atlflyer
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:22 pm

Quoting OldAeroGuy (Reply 17):
And EK has purchased the 772LR.

When will EK receive their 777-200LRs?
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting ATLflyer (Reply 18):
When will EK receive their 777-200LRs?

Mid-2007, I believe, but I'm not absolutely sure.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
zvezda
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting Leskova (Reply 8):
I do have to admit that I'm somewhat puzzled by the A330s arriving only in 2009/2010 - but, then again, I'm quite sure SQ knows what they're doing.

SQ will begin retiring their B777s in 2009, hence they don't need the A330s any sooner than that.

Quoting SIN_SQ (Reply 9):
A340-500 are still with SIA as these are still the suitable planes to serve US cities from Singapore to take advantage of open skies between US and Singapore although we have B777-200LR. SIA has to be convinced that B777-200LR has to ply both ways non-stop without any technical stop.



Quoting Leelaw (Reply 11):
I don't think there's any question the 777LR can perform SQ's ULR missions without making technical stops, while also delivering a substantially higher payload.

Correct. The reason why SQ still have their A340-500s is that they cannot resell them at a price that would make a replacement deal attractive. I'm surprised that SQ didn't get Airbus to buy their 5 A340s and then lease them back to SQ to for several years as part of the deal announced at Farnborough.
 
trex8
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 20):
I'm surprised that SQ didn't get Airbus to buy their 5 A340s and then lease them back to SQ to for several years as part of the deal announced at Farnborough.

Airbus may have refused
 
PVD757
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:47 am

I know I'm getting flamed for this later, but I think that Airbus is going to practically give them the A330s. These aircraft cannot have that much value right before their replacement arrives except for maybe Airbus using them to launch a freighter conversion program. I'm curious to see what penalties are in place if the performance specs that have been discussed are not met. I would also assume that SQ's displeasure with the A380 has been resolved as well. Maybe a major disount on top of what they are already getting their planes for?  scratchchin 
 
dank
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:47 am

Quoting SIN_SQ (Reply 9):
A340-500 are still with SIA as these are still the suitable planes to serve US cities from Singapore to take advantage of open skies between US and Singapore although we have B777-200LR. SIA has to be convinced that B777-200LR has to ply both ways non-stop without any technical stop.



Quoting Leelaw (Reply 11):
I don't think there's any question the 777LR can perform SQ's ULR missions without making technical stops, while also delivering a substantially higher payload. The question is whether it's worthwhile making the change, if versions of the 787 and/or A350 will be assigned the ULR missions in the not too distant future. One thing working in favor of the 772LR is that it shares engine commonality with the 773ER.



Quoting Zvezda (Reply 20):
Correct. The reason why SQ still have their A340-500s is that they cannot resell them at a price that would make a replacement deal attractive. I'm surprised that SQ didn't get Airbus to buy their 5 A340s and then lease them back to SQ to for several years as part of the deal announced at Farnborough.

Agreed, there isn't any doubt that the -200lr can do the required missions better than the 345. But, as you've stated there is more than just picking up some -200lrs. There is the question of whether the -200lr can do the mission at enough more profit/flight than the 345 to make up for the increased cost of acquiring the -200lr, and potential loss on selling the 345s (interestingly, this issue didn't seem to come up so much in the AC deal with Boeing, which is suprising, clearly they were going to save money on operations, but the losses on selling what they currently have and buying a whole new line of planes in the 777 mitigates that somewhat). On the surprising that they didn't buy the 345 or lease them with this new deal, couldn't the same be said that if they were serious about the -200lr, they would have done the deal when they signed up for the 787-9s? obviously, the -200lr is a better choice for them all other things being equal (imho, the 345 is a nice looking bird, though), but maybe they have decided it isn't worth it for them now (potentially waiting to see what comes of the longer range 787s and 350s).

cheers.
 
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Stitch
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:11 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
It would be surprising if the A350-1000 didn't decisively beat the B777-300ER in CASM.

Of that, I have no real doubt, though I am sure Boeing and GE will continue to work hard to improve the design.

Quote:
I think the only advantage the latter has is near-term availability.

Yet if the A350-1000 ends up carrying less payload, that may help the 773ER. I have to believe the 773ER will have more usable floor-space due to it's (almost surely) larger size so that might help a bit in areas where demand requires those seats yet flying two smaller planes to meet it would result in a higher overall CASM. Such a scenario will be the exception, I imagine, but it is one of the reasons why I feel the entire passenger 777 family line will not be extinguished by the A350 family entering service.
 
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scbriml
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting PVD757 (Reply 22):
I think that Airbus is going to practically give them the A330s.

Far from it. As we have seen, the A330 continues to be a very popular plane. Yes, some airlines will replace A330s with 787s or A350s, but that's going to take a long time. In the mean time, till airlines can get their hands on 787s & A350s, the A330 is the most economical solution.

Plus, when an airline like SQ does release its A330s, there will be a slew of 2nd & 3rd tier airlines very interested in taking those planes - having been operated and maintained by a top-tier airline.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
zvezda
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:27 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 24):
I have to believe the 773ER will have more usable floor-space due to it's (almost surely) larger size so that might help a bit in areas where demand requires those seats yet flying two smaller planes to meet it would result in a higher overall CASM.

That only works if the CASM are very close. If the A350-1000 has decisively better CASM than the B777-300ER (which I expect), then it is more profitable to carry slightly fewer passengers paying a higher average fare.
 
leelaw
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:32 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 25):
Far from it. As we have seen, the A330 continues to be a very popular plane. Yes, some airlines will replace A330s with 787s or A350s, but that's going to take a long time. In the mean time, till airlines can get their hands on 787s & A350s, the A330 is the most economical solution.

Plus, when an airline like SQ does release its A330s, there will be a slew of 2nd & 3rd tier airlines very interested in taking those planes - having been operated and maintained by a top-tier airline.

Once the 787s and A350s start coming in service in large numbers circa 2010-2015, the residual values of the A330s will begin to decline precipitously, particularly pax configured units. 2nd and 3rd tier carriers are increasingly able to make very attractive lease deals for new-build widebody equipment, so that outlet/market for making relatively high-value disposals is declining as well.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:29 am

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 14):
The Airbus knows it has almost no chances in direct combat with 787.

Who told you that? The Airbus?  eyebrow 


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
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mariner
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 1):
And what's up with the "Don't you think?" salutation in both of your replies to me? It seems a little condescending, or is it just part of your signature now? If it's meant as sarcasm, I'm more than happy to exchange viewpoints without it.

It is meant purely to show that my statements are not definitive and it is an invitation to respond - not extended to everyone, although anyone can.

I apologize if asking for your comments was mis-interpreted.

mariner

[Edited 2006-07-23 21:38:35]
aeternum nauta
 
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glideslope
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:37 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
It would be surprising if the A350-1000 didn't decisively beat the B777-300ER in CASM. I think the only advantage the latter has is near-term availability.

Given the underachieving performance of Airbus airframes since the 346, I do believe you have your point backwards. Here you are having the "Extra Wide Body" (sorry, can't help laughing at the name) beating the CASM of a product that will be 7-10% more efficient by the time the 350-1000 ever rotates, let alone comes off the desktop.

I admire your positive outlook, but you have missed the outer marker on this one.  Smile
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:54 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 30):
Given the underachieving performance of Airbus airframes since the 346, I do believe you have your point backwards.

Ah, so you believe that new planes' CASM will become worse and worse compared to today's...  Yeah sure

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 30):
Here you are having the "Extra Wide Body" (sorry, can't help laughing at the name) beating the CASM of a product that will be 7-10% more efficient by the time the 350-1000 ever rotates, let alone comes off the desktop.

Your threory doesn't make any sense...  Yeah sure

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 30):
but you have missed the outer marker on this one.

Actually that statement is only accurate for reply 30.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
Rj111
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:00 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 30):
Given the underachieving performance of Airbus airframes since the 346

Which Airbus planes have gone into service since the A346 exactly?
 
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distanthorizon
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:31 am

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 14):
The Airbus knows it has almost no chances in direct combat with 787.

Well, they anounced otherwise. But what do they know?  Yeah sure
Regards
Nelson SE
 
katekebo
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:47 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
It would be surprising if the A350-1000 didn't decisively beat the B777-300ER in CASM. I think the only advantage the latter has is near-term availability.

I think it is way too early to write off the B777-300ER and send it to the desert. It's logical that the A350-1000 is more efficient being 10 years younger. Boeing (and GE) have 6-7 years to work on the B777 and come up with improvements that will minimize the disadvantage vs. the A350-1000. I doubt that both will just sit there wainting for the A350-1000 to "wipe out" the B777-300ER.

At this moment all we know are some performance claims from Airbus, but no detailed technical specs have been published. Let's wait until real specs become available and Boeing has the chance to analyze them in detail. The advantages of the A350-1000 come from:
- new engines
- newer aerodynamics
- lower weight due to new(er) materials

From these three, the new engines are the ones that make the biggest difference. Aerodynamics may account for a couple percent, but if anything, it seems that it's Airbus who is now copying Boeing wing design concepts with the A350. As for new materials, again this will bring another few percent advantage, but Boeing has already started to put the B777 on diet. The recently announced 6 tons reduction for B777-200LR is a very significant efficiency improvement. Actually, from the structural efficiency point of view, the B777-300 L/D ratio is almost ideal. Being slightly narrower the A350-1000 will have a less favorable L/D. Also, the wider fuselage of the B777 gives more flexibility to the airlines with comfortable 9-wide sitting and 10-wide high density configuration. The B350 is too narrow to offer 10-abreats sitting. The highly efficient fuselage combined with higher usage of composites in the wings and higher percentage of laser welding could bring the B777 weight quite close to the A350-1000.

It's the engines that will make the difference.

So far GE has said that they will not augment the GenEx to power the A350-1000. Instead, GE could develop the next generation of larger engines that will, eventually, power the Y3. I believe that the future is "twins", and the Y3 will be powered by engines providing between 100 klb on the lower extreme, and maybe as much as 150 klb on the high end. If GE can develop the first of such engines (the low end of the scale), it would be an ideal engine to power the B777NG, and could actually be as efficient or better than the A350-1000 engines.

I think we will start hearing something from Boeing in about 1 year, after they have analyzed the A350-1000 specifications. In a couple of years, with the B787 flying, they will be able to dedicate part of their engineering talent to work the necessary improvements, and still come with a B777NG within a year or so after the A350-1000 EIS date.

My impression is that actually the gap between the B777 and the A350 is less than the gap, for example, between the B777 and the A340 (engines aside). The A340 looses against the B777 due to some fundamental issues:
- quad vs. twin
- narrow fuselage that is structurally less efficient

The differences between the A350 and the B777 are much more subtle:
- materials - there is nothing that stops Boeing from increasing the use of composites in the wing structure, replace some of the aluminum with Al-Li, and increase the amount of laser-welded instead of riveted connections
- from the structural efficiency standpoint, the B777 fuselage width is actually closer to the "ideal" in the 350+ passenger range, for which the A350 will have to be stretched beyond most favorable L/D ratio.

If GE and Boeing can re-engine the B777 it can be a formidable competitor for the A350-1000. Probably not a winer, but if it can do as well as the B737NG did vs. the A32x with approx. 47% of the market share, it may be enough to keep Boeing happy until the Y3 comes to life.
 
jacobin777
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:32 am

Quoting Stitch (Thread starter):
I do agree the 777-200 and 777-200ER are not "long for this world" once the A350-900 and 787-10 enter commercial service, but it will depend on how Airbus can position the A350-1000 in terms of performance and capabilities to determine if the 777-300 (especially) and 777-300ER are sent to the "boneyard", as well.



Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
It would be surprising if the A350-1000 didn't decisively beat the B777-300ER in CASM. I think the only advantage the latter has is near-term availability.

you should let EK know about their 434 seater 2-class 77W or 378 3-class 77W.....I doubt the A350 will come anywhere close to that....Airbus states "around 350 seats."....and removing those 84 won't increase yields as much either...

Quoting SIN_SQ (Reply 9):

This also explained why Emirates and Thai Airways use A340-500 to do these long range flights although Boeing has been promoting B777-200 LR to the clients aggressively.

the -200LR wasn't around at the time..

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 11):

I don't think there's any question the 777LR can perform SQ's ULR missions without making technical stops, while also delivering a substantially higher payload. The question is whether it's worthwhile making the change, if versions of the 787 and/or A350 will be assigned the ULR missions in the not too distant future. One thing working in favor of the 772LR is that it shares engine commonality with the 773ER.

 checkmark ...

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 26):

That only works if the CASM are very close. If the A350-1000 has decisively better CASM than the B777-300ER (which I expect), then it is more profitable to carry slightly fewer passengers paying a higher average fare.

only in "standard" configuration..certainly not in "dense configuration" and with the A350-1000 having less width than the 77W, it would be difficult for EK to have 10-abreast..
"Up the Irons!"
 
ebj1248650
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:38 am

Quoting CYatUK (Reply 15):
Quoting Pavlin (Reply 14):
Maybe the A350 wont be so direct competitor to the 787 as advertised.
The Airbus knows it has almost no chances in direct combat with 787.

Airbus will have the advantage to see the real B787 flying before their A350 flies hence they will be able to carry out enhancements to make it better.

It appears the one big enhancement already in hand is the wider fuselage. That seems to be the big selling point. Airbus won't do well to keep adding significant enhancements because that can only mean a longer wait to get fully operational airplanes in service.
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halls120
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:54 am

Quoting Stitch (Thread starter):
I do agree the 777-200 and 777-200ER are not "long for this world" once the A350-900 and 787-10 enter commercial service, but it will depend on how Airbus can position the A350-1000 in terms of performance and capabilities to determine if the 777-300 (especially) and 777-300ER are sent to the "boneyard", as well.

It will also depend on whether Boeing is content to cease improving the 773 and 772LR. Unless they are planning to bring out Y3 out earlier than they;ve previously indicated, tweaking the 777 to make it more efficient is a no-brainer.

Quoting SEAPlane10 (Reply 16):
I am not trying to be contentious. I really just can't see how either manufacturer could really have any advantage. Each time something new gets introduced, one producer has the "advantage"; that is until the other decides to introduce something...and the cycle continues...

 checkmark 

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 34):
If GE and Boeing can re-engine the B777 it can be a formidable competitor for the A350-1000. Probably not a winer, but if it can do as well as the B737NG did vs. the A32x with approx. 47% of the market share, it may be enough to keep Boeing happy until the Y3 comes to life.

 checkmark 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Halibut
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:01 am

Isn't Boeing going to continue improving the 777-200LR ?
Airbus Saved By Airline Industry?Monopoly,no Way! (by Halibut Jul 23 2006 in Civil Aviation)

Halibut
6 million Jews were slaughtered-Do you see Jews flying planes into buildings in Germany to kill 1000s of innocent, NO !
 
yul332LX
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 30):
Given the underachieving performance of Airbus airframes since the 346,

Since you're probably referring to the A380, the aircraft is already meeting/exceeding all performance specs according to all sources (including SIA!).
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chiad
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:07 am

It seems like Airbus has not been updating their information on their web page about the A350 specifications.

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a350/specifications.html

The fuselage diameter says: 5.64 m
which I think is the same as on the A330, hence this is the "old" A350.

I hope we'll see an update early next week on this.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:07 am

Quoting Halibut (Reply 38):
Isn't Boeing going to continue improving the 777-200LR ?

The question is - how far can they improve it?

And yay, you advertise your own bashing thread!
 
787engineer
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:29 am

Quoting Chiad (Reply 40):
It seems like Airbus has not been updating their information on their web page about the A350 specifications.

http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a350/specifications.html

The fuselage diameter says: 5.64 m
which I think is the same as on the A330, hence this is the "old" A350.

I hope we'll see an update early next week on this.

The new A350XWB page is already up, although the link on their site might lead you to the "old A350". Here's the link to the XWB: http://www.airbus.com/en/aircraftfamilies/a350/a350_xwb/index.html
 
zvezda
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 34):
I think it is way too early to write off the B777-300ER and send it to the desert.

I apologize for not being more clear. I didn't mean to suggest that airlines will replace B777-300ERs with A350-1000s (though SQ might perhaps). Rather I meant that A350-1000s would in the future win most of the orders now won by B777-300ERs. B777-300ERs already operating will probably continue operating until something newer than the A350 becomes available (Y3 perhaps).

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 34):
Actually, from the structural efficiency point of view, the B777-300 L/D ratio is almost ideal.

The L/D ratio is a measure of aerodynamic efficiency, not structural efficiency.

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 34):
Being slightly narrower the A350-1000 will have a less favorable L/D.

The L/D ratio is determined almost exclusively by the wing contour. The fuselage width difference between the A350 and the B777 will be negligible in L/D.

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 34):
Also, the wider fuselage of the B777 gives more flexibility to the airlines with comfortable 9-wide sitting and 10-wide high density configuration. The B350 is too narrow to offer 10-abreats sitting.

Yes, that's true, but 10 abreast B777 seating has not been chosen by many airlines.

Quoting Katekebo (Reply 34):
The highly efficient fuselage combined with higher usage of composites in the wings and higher percentage of laser welding could bring the B777 weight quite close to the A350-1000.

I thought Boeing were doing more with friction stir welding than laser welding. No?
 
trex8
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:23 am

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 35):
Quoting SIN_SQ (Reply 9):
This also explained why Emirates and Thai Airways use A340-500 to do these long range flights although Boeing has been promoting B777-200 LR to the clients aggressively.

the -200LR wasn't around at the time..

the LR was offered for several years before TG decided to get the A345, though it was before EIS of the LR, but then the LRs EIS was put off for a while during the period when BR was the only real customer.
 
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glideslope
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:27 am

Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 39):
Since you're probably referring to the A380, the aircraft is already meeting/exceeding all performance specs according to all sources (including SIA!).

The 346 is a Fuel Hog, and the only operators who fly it have no choice, and politically can't comment. It's a Dog.

Until the 380 goes EIS the numbers are meaningless. Given the history of information released at this point in history one could almost question if A380 is the actual name of the airframe. I won't take a word out of Airbus' statements until I see the 380 turn revenue for 12 months. Period.

Of course SIA will tow the perceived line. I can't wait to see what (if) they paid for the 350 "Big Body." Airbus needed one announcement at the show. Let's hope that "he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword" does not apply here.
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
trex8
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:40 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 45):
The 346 is a Fuel Hog, and the only operators who fly it have no choice, and politically can't comment. It's a Dog.

SA, TG were politically forced to take the A346???? When the A346 was proposed and even when it came out and when prices of fuel was what it was then and before the 77Ws excellent flight testing which showed much lower fuel consumption than planned by Boeing, it was quite competitive to the competition . But time has moved on and that is no longer the case. But to say most of the operators chose it for political reasons is pure nonsense.
 
sq452
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:53 am

I was wondering why SQ has ordered the A350, and the 787...

My guess is SQ is hedging their bets. Were the A350's firm orders or all options??
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
jacobin777
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:55 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 44):

the LR was offered for several years before TG decided to get the A345, though it was before EIS of the LR, but then the LRs EIS was put off for a while during the period when BR was the only real customer.

thanks for the update...... checkmark 
"Up the Irons!"
 
yul332LX
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RE: SQ A350/A380/A330 Order - Part Deux

Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:12 am

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 45):
The 346 is a Fuel Hog, and the only operators who fly it have no choice, and politically can't comment. It's a Dog.

Still, you're talking about ONE single aircraft type (A346/345) as oppose to:

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 30):
Given the underachieving performance of Airbus airframes since the 346,

As for the A380, the aircraft is meeting/exceeding all predicted specs according to all parties involved with the aircraft (including RR), despite your pessimism. Show me just one credible/factual source that the A380 is actually under performing at this stage of its certification process.

It does look very good.

[Edited 2006-07-24 04:15:56]
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