TWOne
Topic Author
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Japan And France To Work On Supersonic Aircraft

Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:34 pm

Japanese press agency Kyodo News reports that the Japanese and French aerospace associations "will hold a debriefing meeting on the development of a study on a next-generation supersonic transport aircraft in October in Tokyo"

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/060718/kyodo/d8iudlco0.html

French newspaper Le Figaro has more details, saying the planned aircraft could fly by 2017, carrying 250 passengers at Mach 1.8 and 70,000 feet, with a range of 13,000 km.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/eco-entrepris..._du_futur_pret_a_decoller_en_.html

(article in French)
 
centrair
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RE: Japan And France To Work On Supersonic Aircraft

Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:36 pm

They have been working on this for a while. The Japanese want a supersonic plane that can: Fly from NRT-LAX in half the current time or better, meets environmental standards, and meets noise standards for landing at NRT.

Funding from the Ministry of Transportation and the Ministry of Education, Science Sports and Technology (JAXA and NASDA's boss) started years ago. The ministries asked Fuji Heavy, Mitsubishi Heavy, and Kawasaki Heavy, current developers of 787 and 777 parts as well as the H1 rocket, to research it. They approached the French to assist as they built the Concorde and flew it for 20 years. Boeing was also involved. Boeing, JAXA and NASA have all been working together on technology for producing Supersonic and faster aircraft that can meet environmental and noise rules.

Let's hope it can happen. Would love to fly NRT-West Coast in 4 or 5 hours.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
CXA330300
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RE: Japan And France To Work On Supersonic Aircraft

Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:50 pm

Hasn't this proven not to work with the Concorde?
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pavlin
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RE: Japan And France To Work On Supersonic Aircraft

Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:42 am

The tickets would be considerable higher than today. Do they have any drawings yet
 
GDB
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RE: Japan And France To Work On Supersonic Aircraft

Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:02 am

Well in my 7 flights CXA330300, Concorde worked fine!

However, to the point, I don't want to be a party pooper, but annoucements like this come along every few months, this one is slightly less vague than usual.
But we are still talking here about work quite a long way off from actually launching a project.

The sums quoted seem a lot, but not really.
Any real project would be a trans national affair, quite likely trans industry-some ask could Airbus and Boeing ever work on a project together, for something like this, maybe they would.

However, Japan has carried out some research work on SST's for years, (I remember a Japanese Aerospace team visiting us in BA Concorde Engineering in 1999).
Not for a national programme, but if a multi national project appeared they would have a load of high value work to bring to the party.
France has shown some interest since 2003.

To be realistic however, the obstacles are formidable.
Economic, enviromental, market acceptance.
Look at the price of fuel, it's running out too, any new SST, even in the unlikely event it could meet requirements for emissions/noise that are only getting tougher, would still face large scale political and public PR problems.

I would not bet on the 2017 in service date quoted.
I might bet on Mach 1.4-1.6 supersonic biz jets appearing by then, but they will take away the very market a new SST will need.
 
lehpron
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RE: Japan And France To Work On Supersonic Aircraft

Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 3):
The tickets would be considerable higher than today.

I agree, we cannot curb inflation. Either way, it depends on development costs.

Quoting GDB (Reply 4):
Look at the price of fuel

As much of an issue to any other airplane.

Quoting GDB (Reply 4):
I might bet on Mach 1.4-1.6 supersonic biz jets appearing by then, but they will take away the very market a new SST will need.

True with current ideology about SST's.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
AvObserver
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RE: Japan And France To Work On Supersonic Aircraft

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:35 am

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 2):
Hasn't this proven not to work with the Concorde?

Only in the economic, not the operational sense. Concorde worked just fine but its fuel costs were hugely excessive for this day and age. And I feel all current and future SST studies are pointless while the industry is still dependent on costly petroleum-derived fuel. If Boeing couldn't make a sufficient business case for a more economical "Sonic Cruiser", how will a thirstier new SST make it. Studies on "oblique-wing" SST concepts have shown promising probable economics but have some daunting stability issues. SSBJs like the Aerion may eventually lead to new SSTs but I wouldn't hold my breath while oil is still the dominant basis for aviation fuel. Right now, we can't afford the luxury of passenger supersonic flight; such a pity.  Sad How ironic that just over 35 years ago a was a big advocate for the stillborn U.S. SST and now I'm ranting all the time that they just don't make sense in today's world. But I'd sure love to see a new one developed!
 
halls120
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RE: Japan And France To Work On Supersonic Aircraft

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 4):
To be realistic however, the obstacles are formidable.
Economic, enviromental, market acceptance.



Quoting AvObserver (Reply 6):
If Boeing couldn't make a sufficient business case for a more economical "Sonic Cruiser", how will a thirstier new SST make it. Studies on "oblique-wing" SST concepts have shown promising probable economics but have some daunting stability issues. SSBJs like the Aerion may eventually lead to new SSTs but I wouldn't hold my breath while oil is still the dominant basis for aviation fuel. Right now, we can't afford the luxury of passenger supersonic flight; such a pity.

Both posts above are spot on. SST flight for the public isn't going to happen unless there is a significant technological breakthrough that would make the tickets on this dream aircraft economically feasible.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Glom
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RE: Japan And France To Work On Supersonic Aircraft

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:45 am

Make it thorium powered. Use heavy water and the think makes fuel as it goes.
 
centrair
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RE: Japan And France To Work On Supersonic Aircraft

Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 7):
SST flight for the public isn't going to happen unless there is a significant technological breakthrough that would make the tickets on this dream aircraft economically feasible.

The Japanese are involved. This is a nation where they take things and make them better. Japan has actually never invented anything significant (The washlet not withstanding). The CD? A 3M invention...Sony made it viable and sellable. Hybrid technology for cars? American invention...but the Japanese made it work in the market. This is what the Japanese do. They learn what didn't work for others and make it even better so it will be a huge hit.

As I wrote before, the goals set by the Ministries in Japan is that any SST would have to meet environmental and noise laws out of NRT. And I bet you they are trying to figure out how to make it efficient and affordable.
Yes...I am not a KIX fan. Let's Japanese Aviation!
 
glacote
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RE: Japan And France To Work On Supersonic Aircraft

Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:05 am

At this stage all of this is still just vaporware.

I am especially curious on to how they claim to "reduce fuel burn by 85% by flying higher".

At the very least you have to provide potential energy that you can not recoup when you get down. Unless something was lost in the scientific-to-journalistic translation...
 
stirling
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RE: Japan And France To Work On Supersonic Aircraft

Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting Centrair (Reply 9):
The Japanese are involved. This is a nation where they take things and make them better. Japan has actually never invented anything significant (The washlet not withstanding). The CD? A 3M invention...Sony made it viable and sellable. Hybrid technology for cars? American invention...but the Japanese made it work in the market. This is what the Japanese do. They learn what didn't work for others and make it even better so it will be a huge hit.

And the mother of them all, on which the entire technological world operates.....the transistor; developed by Bell Labs, perfected by the Japanese.
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connector4you
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RE: Japan And France To Work On Supersonic Aircraft

Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:43 pm

Quoting TWOne (Thread starter):
the planned aircraft could fly by 2017, carrying 250 passengers at Mach 1.8 and 70,000 feet, with a range of 13,000 km

Certainly this is a path the aviation industry should follow. Just imagine the number of people willing to spend a long-weekend on a different continent at a resonable price?

Now imagine the turism industry growth following that supersonic speed!
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: Japan And France To Work On Supersonic Aircraft

Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:18 pm

Quoting TWOne (Thread starter):
Japan And France To Work On Supersonic Aircraft

Don't the French ever learn..... wink