gilesdavies
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Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:44 am

Is is widely discussed on here that BA's long haul fleet is regularly stretched to capacity and have to juggle aircrafts around on their schedule. Also this has prevented them opening up new routes without sacrificing other routes.

As far as I am aware the European routes is where BA faces the most competition from with LCC and other national legacy carriers all flights for the same passengers.

As part of my aim to become an airline CEO from my armchair and eventually take over the world... I propose this idea!

Would it not make sense for BA to consider removing 747's, 767's and 777's off routes which could be operated by their current shorthaul fleet?

I am aware that back in the early 1990's BA was using 757's accross the pond to JFK and YYZ from BHX and GLA.

BA has a very cabable short haul fleet of A319's, A320's and A321 which in my opinion seem to be under utilized and could be deployed to routes like Cairo, Tel Aviv, Larnaca and Moscow are a few examples I could think of.

Also the 757's in the fleet could cover routes like:

Accra
Abu Dhabi
Abuja
Bahrain
Baltimore
Boston
Doha
Dubai
Ghana
Montreal
Muscat
New York - JFK
New York - Newark
Philadelphia
Toronto
Washington DC

Many of these routes are operated several times daily so even if one of these aircrafts was replaced with an A32X or 757, it would maintain the frequencies and freeing up the other aircrafts for other routes.

If moving aircrafts off the short haul fleet became a problem BA could use their BAe-146's out of London again, on their routes under 2hrs and there is also large number of BAe 146's coming on to the market with other airlines no longer using them. So I am sure BA could obtain some of these at discounted rates.

[Edited 2006-07-24 18:57:00]
 
NYC777
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:26 am

I thought BA is in the process of selling off their 757s.
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ZSOFN
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:34 am

This would involve a u-turn on BA's gradual sale of its 75s, however I wouldn't be surprised if this conundrum hasn't been thrown around at HQ.

Certainly domestic and short-haul demand has dropped over the last decade and it's only relatively recently that CO has been demonstrating the potential of the 752 on transatlantic routes. Moreover, BA has tried this before:


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vega
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:46 am

If BA ever went the route of the cattle car U.S. carriers and used 757s between Europe (LHR) and the major East Coast cities, why would I or anyone else for that matter choose them instead of say CO or US? People fly (and pay higher fares in many cases) BA for their service levels. I can't imagine a 757 configured with Flat Beds in Club World. If BA ever reduced their image to that level, they should do it with an offshoot subsidiary - maybe call it BA-Low.
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as739x
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:31 am

Didn't BA fly them to YYZ and JFK at some point from MAN or a smaller city. I remember seeing a BA 757 at YYZ in '97 when I was working for AC.

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MCOflyer
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:37 am

I remmer reading a trip report that stated BA flying to JFK via BUD on the 757.

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D L X
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:00 am

Quoting Vega (Reply 3):
I can't imagine a 757 configured with Flat Beds in Club World.

Why not? I'm sure there's some contractor that could install them.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:21 am

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Many of these routes are operated several times daily so even if one of these aircrafts was replaced with an A32X or 757, it would maintain the frequencies and freeing up the other aircrafts for other routes.

Since LHR is a slot-constricted hub where BA carries a substantial amount of both O&D and connecting traffic, I see no reason whatsoever why they would want to waste a slot at LHR to run a 757 on a prestige high-yield route such as LHR-JFK, or some of the others mentioned in the OP. There are a number of other opportunites where BA could use their 757s without diluting the value LHR brings to the operation.
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tymnbalewne
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:18 pm

Quoting AS739X (Reply 4):
Didn't BA fly them to YYZ and JFK at some point from MAN or a smaller city. I remember seeing a BA 757 at YYZ in '97 when I was working for AC.

ASLAX

I believe YYZ-JFK-BHX and BOS-JFK-GLA were operated by 757's

Quoting Vega (Reply 3):
If BA ever went the route of the cattle car U.S. carriers and used 757s between Europe (LHR) and the major East Coast cities, why would I or anyone else for that matter choose them instead of say CO or US? People fly (and pay higher fares in many cases) BA for their service levels. I can't imagine a 757 configured with Flat Beds in Club World. If BA ever reduced their image to that level, they should do it with an offshoot subsidiary - maybe call it BA-Low.

I always found it interesting that people will generally "pooh-pooh" the concept of a narrow-body across the Atlantic yet, when available will choose to sit in the single aisled upper deck of a 747, regardless of class of service offered up there.

C.
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positiverate
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:28 pm

Quoting AS739X (Reply 4):
Didn't BA fly them to YYZ and JFK at some point from MAN or a smaller city. I



Quoting TymnBalewne (Reply 8):
I believe YYZ-JFK-BHX and BOS-JFK-GLA were operated by 757's

Ditto. I know I have seen a BA 757 in JFK before.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:31 pm

The B757 was previously used by BA on transatlantic flights between BHX and GLA and JFK, BOS and YYZ. BHX-JFK first operated with B763 and was later downgraded to B752. The GLA flight went GLA-JFK-YYZ.
 
mainMAN
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:49 pm

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 5):
I remmer reading a trip report that stated BA flying to JFK via BUD on the 757.

No, it could only have been BUD-LHR on a 757, then a connection to a JFK flight.
 
bhxdtw
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:20 pm

Its a good idea tho some of the cities mentioned either have very high capacity needs or are cities which require a high level of service...

take Dubai for instance... can you really see BA pulling a 747/777 or whatever they use now off this route when VS and EK are competing with their quality product ? (especially in J/F) ... Somehow, next to EK/VS widebodies I dont think a BA 757 would cut the cheese... I think this would go for BAH and AUH also, where BA are competing against EY and GF directly.

Accra... I believe they need high capacity on this route and also for Cargo and the amount of excess baggage..

And as stated before, yes BA operated the BHX/GLA - JFK/YYZ/BOS routes..

I flew the BHX-JFK routes about 6 times when it was around... I remember they had the new 'cradle' seat.. that was quite nice actually in J.. and they had Raid the Larder service too... dont know if they still do that.
Sat next to a nice guy who part owned shirley aquatics near Solihull... I also remember getting the upgrade as my aunt is a senior ticket desk agent at JFK for BA and wanting to sound like I was a regular J class travelller...

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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:37 am

If BA was going to use any 757s on international services it would probably be from the regions, but as BA seems happy enough to maintain MAN-JFK as it's sole non LHR/LGW longhaul route then this seems unlikely.

I believe Willie Walsh has actually stated BA has no plans to use the 757 on longhaul services - I really should keep a log of articles that might have further use, as can't recall where I read this.

As for 757s leaving the fleet, seems to be a common misconception. BA maintains 13 757s for shorthaul work, alongside 7 767s (Common type ating for pilopts). BA has no intention of replacing the remaining aircraft as yet. Only shorthaul aircraft on order are the 10 IAE powered A320/A321 aircraft to replace the 10 CFM powered A320 aircraft originally ordered by BCal.
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avconsultant
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:14 am

I thought BA sold these to DHL?
 
ZuluTime
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:37 am

No, there is no deal to sell the latter aircraft to DHL. They are not written down in value anything like enough to be attractive to DHL. The remaining 13 x B757s will be retained in the fleet and will be based at LHR T3 when T5 opens. They will be concentrated on routes to Spain and Italy which will remain in T3. T5 will be an all-Airbus affair for short haul routes.
 
icebud
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:44 am

Ba did use to fly the 757's daily across the Atlantic. The Glasgow route flew to JFK then BOS, the Birmingham route to JFK then YYZ. They pulled the plug in autumn 1998 on both these routes. Don't know why though, because since that time, Continental took on both routes with much success and at GLA, chicago and Philadelphia are since popular.
 
GBOAC
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:09 am

Larnaca and Moscow are already operated by the shorthaul fleet. CAI and TLV are longhaul planes...and the answer for that surely lies in your opening paragraph: BA have a finite longhaul fleet. The fact they are deployed on these routes clearly shows they can command a premium for FIRST and Club World and it makes economic sense to do so - if those routes could be operated by shorthaul planes as profitably you can bet your life they'd free up the longhaul ones for India/China! But therein lies an interesting little conundrum...why is DME operated by shorthaul 767s or A320s? Because with the convertible seating they can fit 100+ CE pax paying around 1500 UKP each return (and they will indeed suffer it, it seems).

When T5 opens, the 757s will be confined to the Spanish routes operating from T3.

What I'd like to see BA have is a 'midhaul' fleet for the longer shorthaul routes. BMED manage the Club World cradle seats (in fact, an updated/enhanced seat in the A321s) on their Airbusses - BA could really do with something similar for the longer 'short'hauls (e.g. LCA, ATH, IST) and then maybe (with an appropriate premium) DME, TLV, CAI, etc. could still be usefully and profitably served in that way and free up longhaul planes for expansion. More chance of flying to ATH on a pig though, I fear...
 
vv701
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:28 am

Quoting AvConsultant (Reply 14):
I thought BA sold these to DHL?

BA retained their thirteen youngest 752s that at the end of this month will have an average age of 11.8 years. BA have already formally announced their future plans for these aircraft. When T5 opens in March 2008 the BA fleet of

Quoting GBOAC (Reply 17):
757s will be confined to the Spanish routes operating from T3.

.
Some of the lost capacity on other routes will be made up with the delivery of three new 321s that are being purchased to replace three of the old 320s originally ordered by BCal which are due for retirement.
 
sam1987
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:48 pm

Quoting GBOAC (Reply 17):
When T5 opens, the 757s will be confined to the Spanish routes operating from T3.

Will these be the only BA routes operating from Terminal 3 then? Any why don't they all fit in Terminal 5?
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GBOAC
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:12 pm

I should have said 'Spain and Italy' not just Spain...

Quoting Sam1987 (Reply 19):
Will these be the only BA routes operating from Terminal 3 then? Any why don't they all fit in Terminal 5?

T5 is not big enough for all BA flights until all the satellite terminals open a few years after the initial opening  Sad So T3 is going to be the oneworld terminal (close to T5) and Spain (IB codeshares) and Oz routes (QF codeshares) will operate from there  Sad

The fact they will dedicate 757s to Spain and Italy is just an ease of movement/usage issue I think and I can see it making good sense.

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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:35 pm

Quoting Vega (Reply 3):
maybe call it BA-Low.

BA Lite or Diet BA anybody ?

I think if they were to go down the route of narrowbodies accross the pond it would be perceived by the flying public that services were being downgraded. One week a 744/777, the next week a 757! Would take a distortation of fact of Michael O'Leary proportions to convince the punters otherwise.
 
speedbirdegjj
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:08 pm

Quoting GBOAC (Reply 17):
What I'd like to see BA have is a 'midhaul' fleet for the longer shorthaul routes

I see where your reasoning comes from, problem would be that there is certainly a finite number of routes on which there would be suffiecient demand or yield to make it pay. BY only configuring a small number of airframes in this manner, network planning becomes a logistical nightmare in the event of tech delays cancellations etc. On routes such as DME and IST it makes sense to operate a Short Haul 767. As someone previously said it allows us to maximise the number of Club seats for sale, and more importantly offers greater scope for belly cargo. This is why both these routes have the 767 on one rotation and an A320 on the other.

In terms of long haul ops with the 757's i dont believe it would be viable to operate to some of the dropped routes above. In the old days of the cradle seats in Club World (which on the 757 i would imagine to have been 2+2) and no WTP, the seats lent themselves far better to narrowbody ops. However, and i have no equations to back this up, even with a minimum of say 38 seats in J, the remaining capacity in W + Y and would be so small it would be unviable. That coupled with the reduced cargo, which remains very much an important part of a route profitability, means we shall not see the 757's outside Europe again.

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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:19 am

I don't think we will see 757's on LOng-haul, as they would only feasibly be able to operate with J and Y, mean J would have to be in a 2+2 config, and Y in a 3+3, which in totoal would be less than 150 seats per aircraft.
2) The aircrafts are in the process of being sold
3) There are only 12 or so 757's left
4) They can be used to better proffit European routes.

Quoting AS739X (Reply 4):
Didn't BA fly them to YYZ and JFK at some point from MAN or a smaller city. I remember seeing a BA 757 at YYZ in '97 when I was working for AC.

BA did these routes with 757's during the mid-late 90's :
MAN-GLA-JFK
BHX-JFK (Sometimes via GLA)
BHX-JFK-YYZ
GLA-JFK-YYZ-BOS

Quoting Sam1987 (Reply 19):
Will these be the only BA routes operating from Terminal 3 then

I think the BA Australia routes will be done from T3 aswell, though I'm not sure

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KDCA
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:17 am

What about BA developping unserved markets LHR-USA that don't seem to work from the American side of the pond?

LHR-BDL This is a route a lot of people talk about, but they say it would be hard to pull off for an American carrier.

LHR-HPN This route would certainly draw high yields although I don't know if the 757 could get out of there for the return, but maybe.

LHR-PIT, I know they served this before but could the 757 make it work?

LHR-CLE, if CO can make seasonal CLE-LGW work I've gotta think BA could do it from LHR.

LHR-CMH, does the bird have the legs for this?

Anyway just some thoughts, I realize LHR slots are extremely valuable but with cuts in domestic flying I think some of these could work rather nicely.
 
monkeyboi
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:06 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 23):
I think the BA Australia routes will be done from T3 aswell, though I'm not sure

Yup, alongside Qantas who will also be in T3 and who BA codeshare with.

Same reason given for the spanish flights being out of T3, so they operate alongside IB (again, codeshare).

The Italian flights from T3 are a bit of an odd ball tho.


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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting KDCA (Reply 24):
What about BA developping unserved markets LHR-USA that don't seem to work from the American side of the pond?

LHR-BDL This is a route a lot of people talk about, but they say it would be hard to pull off for an American carrier.

LHR-HPN This route would certainly draw high yields although I don't know if the 757 could get out of there for the return, but maybe.

LHR-PIT, I know they served this before but could the 757 make it work?

LHR-CLE, if CO can make seasonal CLE-LGW work I've gotta think BA could do it from LHR.

LHR-CMH, does the bird have the legs for this?

Anyway just some thoughts, I realize LHR slots are extremely valuable but with cuts in domestic flying I think some of these could work rather nicely.

Again, BA isn't going to fragment its small 757 fleet by having some aircraft configured for shorthaul, and some for longhaul. Plus, as others have said, BA makes a big deal of belly cargo, which on a longhaul 757 from LHR would be minimal. For now BA seems happy for BMED to serve niche longhaul routes with its A321s/A320s configured with an upfated Club Would Craddle Seat and World Travller (Including PTVS on newest aircraft). Also, given that rumours suggest that BMED is looking at expanding from the Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia to West Africa too, then maybe in time BMED might look at some niche North American routes, but whether it's aircraft would have the range is another matter.
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David_itl
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:43 am

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 23):
BA did these routes with 757's during the mid-late 90's :
MAN-GLA-JFK
BHX-JFK (Sometimes via GLA)
BHX-JFK-YYZ
GLA-JFK-YYZ-BOS

MAN 757s to JFK may have operated as many as 10 times in 5 years!

The routes:
BHX-JFK (later extended to YYZ)
GLA-JFK (later extended to BOS)

Passengers from BHX and MAN going to BOS could transfer in JFk
Don't know if passengers from GLA and MAN going to YYZ could transfer in JFK.

Quoting KDCA (Reply 24):
What about BA developping unserved markets LHR-USA that don't seem to work from the American side of the pond?

What about scrapping Bermuda II first?

Quoting KDCA (Reply 24):
with cuts in domestic flying I think some of these could work rather nicely.

And what of the domestic passengers who are transferring on to LHR flights? There's anything between 500,000 to 1,000,000 passengers (depends on whose figures you believe) on the MAN-LHR sector alone who are transferring. I wonder how many on the other domestic services are doing likewise.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 23):
don't think we will see 757's on LOng-haul, as they would only feasibly be able to operate with J and Y, mean J would have to be in a 2+2 config, and Y in a 3+3, which in totoal would be less than 150 seats per aircraft.

CO appears to be using 16J 156Y on their 757s on their routes to the regions. BA could, if they wanted to, look at feeding AA's hubs given that I believe there's no impediment for their codesharing across the Atlantic for regional routes.

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 13):
If BA was going to use any 757s on international services it would probably be from the regions, but as BA seems happy enough to maintain MAN-JFK as it's sole non LHR/LGW longhaul route then this seems unlikely.

I really doubt they are happy about MAN-JFK being successful. Embarrassed might be a better word for they have tried for years to make it an unprofitable route. They now appears to have realised their mistake by going to an unneeded 3 class operation, but the better option would be a 3 class 757 on MAN-JFK so that stellar losses can be accrued in a short space of time and so pull the route promptly.
 
vv701
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:55 am

Quoting KDCA (Reply 24):
LHR-BDL This is a route a lot of people talk about, but they say it would be hard to pull off for an American carrier.

LHR-HPN This route would certainly draw high yields although I don't know if the 757 could get out of there for the return, but maybe.

LHR-PIT, I know they served this before but could the 757 make it work?

LHR-CLE, if CO can make seasonal CLE-LGW work I've gotta think BA could do it from LHR.

LHR-CMH, does the bird have the legs for this?

Of the above suggestions the only one legaslly possible is LHR-PIT. All the other routes are forbidden to British airlines by Bermuda 2 although AA or UA are permitted to operate LHR-CLE if they so wish. So until Congress and the Senate are willing to shelve their objections to Open Skies BA could operate to PIT from LHR but not BDL, HPN, CLE or CMH.
 
CentPIT
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 28):
Open Skies BA could operate to PIT from LHR but not

Well I think BA should operate the damn route with a B757 and see how it goes! PIT can support a B757 no problem!
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
speedbirdegjj
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:36 pm

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 29):
Well I think BA should operate the damn route with a B757 and see how it goes! PIT can support a B757 no problem!

Support in what sense?, passenger volume or profitability. Read some the posts above, the costs of a sub fleet are immense, when PIT failed with a 767 it almost certianly signalled the end of a BA presence for the long term future. Anyhow a BA flight number is used on some AA services ex ORD, thats what alliance partners are for!

Rgrds
Ryan
 
CentPIT
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:47 pm

Quoting SpeedbirdEGJJ (Reply 30):
Anyhow a BA flight number is used on some AA services ex ORD, thats what alliance partners are for!

Yeah on a damn ERJ, hahaha...what a joke! The B757 would be profitable, US made profits on there last year of PIT-FRA (A330) and PIT-LGW (B767)! The aircraft were just better used in PHL! I don't really care about BA, they still pay some lease in PIT anyway, so w/e!
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)
 
speedbirdegjj
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:14 pm

US obviously did oooooh so well ex PIT that they redeployed their aircraft elsewhere! when even your hometown airline drops international routes that should tell you something, and given the size of our international network when compared to US, don't you think, just for a minute, that BA might also have better uses for our 757's?  sarcastic 

Am still very curious as to what rationale you're using to dictate that transatantic ops on a 757 into PIT would be profitable for BA, please do tell....

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 31):
I don't really care about BA

No big deal...

Quoting CentPIT (Reply 31):
they still pay some lease in PIT anyway, so w/e!

In English??  confused 
 
coerj
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:54 am

A transatlantic 757 could also open up more gateways for BA in the US. From LGW 757 service would be great to BDL, PIT, CVG, CLT, CLE, BNA, etc.
 
CentPIT
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RE: Could BA Use Their 757's On Long Haul Routes?

Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:28 am

Quoting COERJ (Reply 33):
A transatlantic 757 could also open up more gateways for BA in the US. From LGW 757 service would be great to BDL, PIT, CVG, CLT, CLE, BNA, etc.

I agree!!

Quoting SpeedbirdEGJJ (Reply 32):
In English??

Well all my words were/are from the English language! BA still pays fees at Pittsburgh International!!!!!! Get it NOW?
Pittsburgh International: US Airways---160 daily departures! (52 destinations)