IslandHopperCO
Topic Author
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4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:45 am

According to the Mojave Airport Yahoo discussion group, where plane scrappings are discussed, Northwest is scrapping four A320s, at the Greenwood, MS scrapyard where they have dismantled their other unwanted planes (DC9s, DC10s, 747s) in the past. N302US, 306US, 307US, 308US are in the process of being scrapped. Two were built in 1989 and two in 1990.

I'm sure the reason for this is that NWA got out of the leases on these aircraft through bankruptcy, and their actual owners found it more economical to scrap them. It still seems very strange to see a 16 year old NWA plane scrapped while DC9s much more than TWICE their age are still flying with the same airline!

Many undamaged 737-300s, 400s, MD80s, 757s and 767s have been scrapped recently as well. Are we now in an era where airframes are only built to serve (and financed for) 15-20 years, and scrappings like this will be common?

[Edited 2006-07-24 18:47:07]
 
bennett123
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:48 am

Are there any Greenwood sites.

I am trying to get details of NWA DC10-40's last seen there in 2005.
 
peterinlisbon
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:49 am

I imagine that we're heading that way. With fuel prices going up so quickly, it is cheaper for airlines to buy a new aircraft that uses less fuel than to continue to operate and maintain an older plane.
 
DAYflyer
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting Peterinlisbon (Reply 2):
it is cheaper for airlines to buy a new aircraft that uses less fuel than to continue to operate and maintain an older plane.

Not really. If that were the case we would see another 3,000 airframe order year. How is it cheaper to pay $73,000,000 for a new plane (737-700) plus crew, fuel, mx, etc?

You would have to save one hell of a lot of fuel and mx to make up the $73,000,000 purchase price or extra monthly lease payments.
One Nation Under God
 
warreng24
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:24 am

These might have been very high cycle A320's. The cost of a D-Check might have been uneconomical.

Maybe D-Checks for the old DC-9's are so cheap that it's actually economical to keep around?

You know what I mean? You see it all the time in the Southwest USA. The landscapers and construction workers all drive around in ancient 1970-1980's era Chevrolet and GMC pickups (with the famous 350 small block). They suck gas like no tomorrow and pollute the air like crazy, but they're so cheap and easy to repair!
 
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jetjack74
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting IslandHopperCO (Thread starter):
I'm sure the reason for this is that NWA got out of the leases on these aircraft through bankruptcy, and their actual owners found it more economical to scrap them. It still seems very strange to see a 16 year old NWA plane scrapped while DC9s much more than TWICE their age are still flying with the same airline!

The next generation Airbuses aren't built as rigidly as athe older airliners were built. They were designed for one carrier to use them for on average 15 years before they're scrapped, which is the main reason why so many are being scrapped. It's more economical to retire the old ones and buy new ones which is why they're cheaper than the 737's. They're good aircraft for quick, cheap operations which is why more LCC's go for them(mostly overseas) and 737 loses out in the LCC camp. WN has a nice base of 737's simply becuase they started with the 737. If WN started today, they most likely would've gone Airbus. It's not surprising that we're retiring them now, it compensates for the reduction in domestic capacity. My feeling is Boeing will target the A319/320 customers in the next year for a replacement.

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 4):
Maybe D-Checks for the old DC-9's are so cheap that it's actually economical to keep around?

Well, the DC9's aren't cheap anymore since the cost of fuel is going up, which why were retiring them in increasing numbers.

Quoting IslandHopperCO (Thread starter):
Many undamaged 737-300s, 400s, MD80s, 757s and 767s have been scrapped recently as well. Are we now in an era where airframes are only built to serve (and financed for) 15-20 years, and scrappings like this will be common?

The the 737-300/400/500's were killed off by the Next-Generation 737's, and those weren't converted to freighters, are scrapped.
Made from jets!
 
acidradio
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:59 am

Well think of it this way - how many of us here regularly drive 16 yr old cars? I know, apples & oranges comparison, but still, you could rip the thing down to the frame and rebuild it, but it's uneconomical. So you go buy a new one and make the payment on it, which in the long run may be more cost effective. Old planes tend to break more, use more fuel, etc. Why spend the money to keep something old when you can get a new one for probably not that much more nowadays (especially with the price of fuel!) and which is less likely to break (and cause delays/cancellations, and anger the customers...).

This goes to show once again that when NW Airbuses go to the scrapyard, the pilots who flew them there will come home on a NW DC9  Wink
Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
 
starrion
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:07 am

The joke about the crew of the last NWA A320 dropped off to be scrapped getting picked up by a DC-9 is a little closer to reality......
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
ltbewr
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:26 am

You probably have a well number crunched combination of factors as to scrapping:
The tax laws as to a/c leasing
Heavy checks due
Day to day mx costs
Cycles and/or hours on a given a/c
Engineering as to lifetime designed usable cycles/hours
High values for used parts
High values for scrap aluminum, titanium and other materials used in a/c
High operating costs
Residial/used value of an a/c
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood,

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
The next generation Airbuses aren't built as rigidly as athe older airliners were built. They were designed for one carrier to use them for on average 15 years before they're scrapped, which is the main reason why so many are being scrapped.

"One carrier and an average of 15 years" - who told you that? Air France hasn't retired a single A320-100 yet (the oldest built in 1987), and most of them have always been used on short domestic sectors. Also, the upcoming A320 freighter conversion program indicates there's more life in the frame than often suggested.

And no, it's not "many" which have been scrapped so far - only seven (including the four NW frames), out of a total of more than 1500 active A320s.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
It's more economical to retire the old ones and buy new ones which is why they're cheaper than the 737's.

A32X series aircraft are not necessarily cheaper.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
They're good aircraft for quick, cheap operations which is why more LCC's go for them(mostly overseas) and 737 loses out in the LCC camp.

Both B737 and A32X series aircraft are capable of quick & cheap operations. There's no clear preference of LCCs or legacy carriers for one of the two families.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
My feeling is Boeing will target the A319/320 customers in the next year for a replacement.

Which ones? Most A320 and B737NG customers will wait for the successors of these families.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
The the 737-300/400/500's were killed off by the Next-Generation 737's, and those weren't converted to freighters, are scrapped.

They haven't been killed off yet - they're still very popular as used frames, e.g. there are hardly any B735s and B734s available. The number of scrapped B733/735/735 is still marginal.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
airmailer
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 9):
There's no clear preference of LCCs or legacy carriers for one of the two families.

FWIW... I think that Boeing recently commented that 737s are used by something like 75% or 80% of all LCCs throughout the world.
 
bennett123
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:55 am

How did they define LCC, also is it by number of aircraft or carriers?.
 
na
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:57 am

Boeings forecasts a dramatic rise in premature scrappings over the next years due to the steep rise in fuel prices. Boeing predicts that 9600 aircraft will be retired over the next 20 years (while 3 times as many will be build!).

Surely quite a number of relatively young airplanes like these 4 NWA A320s will be among the condemned ones.
 
pavlin
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:57 am

A320 being scraped? That is just plain stupid. I wonder why nobody buys them. They could be converted to cargo. How much is the cost to purchase one?
 
Ruscoe
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:00 am

I think that the huge discounts given on new aircraft by both manufacturers must be a factor.

Ruscoe
 
bennett123
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:05 am

Given that we are talking NWA, they are probably well worn.

Aviation Letter 472 indicates as follows;

N307US 49,931Hrs/21946 Cycles
N308US 49,291Hrs/21760 Cycles

Does anyone know when the next D Check was due?.
 
socalfive
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:09 am

Quoting IslandHopperCO (Thread starter):
Many undamaged 737-300s, 400s, MD80s, 757s and 767s have been scrapped recently as well. Are we now in an era where airframes are only built to serve (and financed for) 15-20 years, and scrappings like this will be common?

Combination of factors... D check looming, Lessors are fully depreciated in 15 years and the parts market is booming for A320 parts that don't have to come from Airbus. Just like parts on a car, only to the 12th power. The scrapping of the airplane is probably much more profitable than re-leasing it and a lot less risky. lol
 
CRJ900
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:11 am

Perhaps it's because the currently built A320s have lots of modifications that the 1988-1990-builds do not have, making the older airframes more complicated to fly next to newer aircraft...? Hence, no other airlines want them.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
lotsamiles
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:12 am

I would venture that these aircraft may have been rejected back to lessors thru the ch. 11 proceedings, have been stored for long time and have a lot of outstanding maintenance (perhaps engine work) required in order to get them airworthy again.

The owner is stuck between a rock and a hard place because they either have to renegotiate with NW for a new lease at a very low rate or they have to shop the aircraft around in the market. If they find a new lessee then the owner will have to pay for all of the maintenance required (NW was released from this liability by the judge). The owner then cannot get the numbers to work for a new lease (competing with other airworthy aircraft at the same lease rates) and they simply decide to sell the aircraft for scrap to cut their losses.

This is not an indication that the A320 is not fuel efficient or in demand, just the sad reality of the ch 11 rulings that stick it to the creditors. As for conversion to cargo, the A320 conversion program will not be ready until 2011 and by then there will be many more aircraft around to convert and the maintenance on these airframes will still need to be paid by someone.

Regards,
Lotsamiles
 
dutchjet
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting IslandHopperCO (Thread starter):
N302US, 306US, 307US, 308US are in the process of being scrapped. Two were built in 1989 and two in 1990.

While these are young airplanes to be scrapped, its proabably a combination of factors that resulted in this decision, the most important of which is that the owners of these airplanes determined that it would be extremely difficult to find new operators for these very early build A320s and the airplanes are probably in need of expensive heavy maintainance. Storing an airplane for a prolonged period of time is an expensive proposition.

Sometimes airplanes that are 15-20 years old are worth more in parts than they are worth as a whole.....with the huge number of A320s of various ages in service worldwide, I am sure that the parts pulled from these four airplanes are quite valuable.

This decision has nothing to do with the A320 or Airbus in general....its purely a financial decision.

Quoting IslandHopperCO (Thread starter):
while DC9s much more than TWICE their age are still flying with the same airline!

Most of the NW DC9s are paid for in full with no payments, thats why they remain in service at NW (but maybe not for much longer). The new Airbus planes that were returned were leased airplanes......NW returned airplanes where lease rates were considered too high and/or lessors were unwilling to renegotiate the terms of the lease (typical procedure in bankruptcy). NW was probably unwilling to pay high rates for these older A320s.

Quoting IslandHopperCO (Thread starter):
Many undamaged 737-300s, 400s, MD80s, 757s and 767s have been scrapped recently as well

I think that using the word MANY is an overstatement......a few 737 2nd generation airplanes have been scrapped, mainly because they were airplanes with the older mechanical cockpit which airplanes are extremely difficult to place in the second hand market.....they were also high circle birds in need of heavy maintainance. Again, the decision to scrap an airplane is a financial, not an emotional decision. To my knowledge, very very few 757s have been scrapped, and only a few 762s have become coca cola cans.

Quoting IslandHopperCO (Thread starter):
Are we now in an era where airframes are only built to serve (and financed for) 15-20 years, and scrappings like this will be common

I think you are jumping to a conclusion here......we are talking about 4 airplanes out of thousands manufactured being scrapped. The vast majority of A320s, MD80s, 737s and 757/767s build in the 1980s are still in revenue service.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
The next generation Airbuses aren't built as rigidly as athe older airliners were built. They were designed for one carrier to use them for on average 15 years before they're scrapped

I am sorry to disagree, but I am not sure what your basis for this statement is? I am a Boeing guy, and even I cannot accept that Airbus produces airplanes not designed for more than 15 years of use......while the Airbus airliners may not be as tough as the old airplanes from McD that could basically fly forever, Airbus products are designed with a long product life in mind. Again, we are talking about 4 airplanes here......a financial decision was made to break them up. Lets not overgeneralize.
 
bennett123
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:13 am

http://www.memphisgrp.com/dismantle.htm

Strangely these A320-211 are not mentioned.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting AirMailer (Reply 10):
FWIW... I think that Boeing recently commented that 737s are used by something like 75% or 80% of all LCCs throughout the world.

If that refers to the total number of aircraft, then the B737 is clearly ahead because of WN alone.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
KELPkid
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:30 am

Quoting Warreng24 (Reply 4):
You see it all the time in the Southwest USA. The landscapers and construction workers all drive around in ancient 1970-1980's era Chevrolet and GMC pickups (with the famous 350 small block). They suck gas like no tomorrow and pollute the air like crazy

In at least two Southwest cities I'm aware of, ELP and ABQ, they are required to meet the same emissions requirements that they were when new. Besides, the equivalent Fords were built better anyways, and you see just as many on the road  duck 
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
flydreamliner
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:44 am

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
If WN started today, they most likely would've gone Airbus. It's not surprising that we're retiring them now, it compensates for the reduction in domestic capacity

I dunno. With their flying into smaller airports and insane numbers of cycles, the rugged 737 is probably a good choice for them either way. They've had ample opportunity to buy Airbus A320, but for what WN does, 737 works well for them.

Quoting Acidradio (Reply 6):
This goes to show once again that when NW Airbuses go to the scrapyard, the pilots who flew them there will come home on a NW DC9 Wink

Which simply continues to prove that the Douglas DC-9 is simply the finest airliner ever built. NW is scrapping and parking A320s and A319, but those DC-9's keep flying, go figure. They keep talking DC-9 retirement, but with no firm timeline, it may be a while.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 9):
And no, it's not "many" which have been scrapped so far - only seven (including the four NW frames), out of a total of more than 1500 active A320s.

They have a number of A319 and A320's parked however. Expect them to scrap more is my guess.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 9):
A32X series aircraft are not necessarily cheaper.

Apples to apples sticker prices, the third generation 737s do cost more up front.

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 13):
A320 being scraped? That is just plain stupid. I wonder why nobody buys them. They could be converted to cargo. How much is the cost to purchase one?

They weren't needed for cargo, they were due for major service work, and A320 parts are worth more than old A320s at the moment. In all honesty, I'm not sure how happy NW was with the durability and reliability of their A320 fleets. I've had more delays on NW A320s than DC-9s. Whether that is the plane or NW maintance, I don't know. Could just be dumb luck, but it's not like NW to throw out anything........ some of their DC-10-30s have nicely over 100,000 hours on them, and are still going.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 15):
N307US 49,931Hrs/21946 Cycles
N308US 49,291Hrs/21760 Cycles

Does anyone know when the next D Check was due?.

...given the number of hours on those, maybe at 50,000?
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:58 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 23):
They keep talking DC-9 retirement, but with no firm timeline, it may be a while.

With increasing fuel prices, the number of DC-9s will rapidly decrease.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 23):
They have a number of A319 and A320's parked however. Expect them to scrap more is my guess.

No, there aren't many more A320s stored - and the A319s are already destined for other operators.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 23):
Apples to apples sticker prices, the third generation 737s do cost more up front.

No airline pays list prices - when A and B fight for a customer, prices are very similar.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
flydreamliner
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 24):
No, there aren't many more A320s stored - and the A319s are already destined for other operators.

I said a number, I didn't say many. The fact they have any sitting in the desert is amazing given the number of DC-9s they have flying.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 24):
With increasing fuel prices, the number of DC-9s will rapidly decrease.

I've heard that for two years. NW isn't really getting rid of them in any hurry, they haven't really set a time table to get rid of them. They retire roughly the same number over every six month period, but given their fleet size, they'll still have them flying likely till 2010, if not longer.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 24):
No airline pays list prices - when A and B fight for a customer, prices are very similar.

No airline pays list prices. Ok, if you say so. Since most airlines publish the conditions of their deals with A and B, we can be certain of this.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
brons2
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:18 am

Quoting IslandHopperCO (Thread starter):
According to the Mojave Airport Yahoo discussion group, where plane scrappings are discussed, Northwest is scrapping four A320s, at the Greenwood, MS scrapyard where they have dismantled their other unwanted planes (DC9s, DC10s, 747s) in the past. N302US, 306US, 307US, 308US are in the process of being scrapped. Two were built in 1989 and two in 1990.

I'm a member of the same group, and the reasons for the scrappings were given on the group by a NWA dispatcher.

1) The planes had only 166,000 MTOW, lower than later A320 models
2) The engines were CFM56-3 and not the later -5 model.

These A320s were mixed in with the rest of the A320 fleet but became a problem when they turned up to operate transcons. They were very difficult to dispatch on these routes. They were a de-facto subfleet with operational issues.

Thus, the leases on these planes were rejected in bankruptcy.

The lessee, and not NWA, decided to part them out because they were worth more parted out than they were whole. Demand for the A32x remains strong and those parts are worth more than the complete airframe. Purely a business decision.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood,

Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:28 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 25):

I said a number, I didn't say many. The fact they have any sitting in the desert is amazing given the number of DC-9s they have flying.

Most likely Ch.11 is the cause - the DC-9s are owned, while many A32X are leased.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 25):
NW isn't really getting rid of them in any hurry, they haven't really set a time table to get rid of them. They retire roughly the same number over every six month period, but given their fleet size, they'll still have them flying likely till 2010, if not longer.

I wouldn't be so sure - they're currently down to around 102 from 146 only one year ago, which is a massive reduction.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 25):
Since most airlines publish the conditions of their deals with A and B, we can be certain of this.

Probably there are some airlines who love to pay list prices, but the smart negotiators definitely don't.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
nitrohelper
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:28 am

PlaneHunter,reply=24]With increasing fuel prices, the number of DC-9s will rapidly decrease.

When do you think NWA will have all their DC-9s retired ?
What will they buy to replace them?
Has anyone heard about this happening?  wink   wave 
 
deltadc9
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:36 am

Quoting IslandHopperCO (Thread starter):
Many undamaged 737-300s, 400s, MD80s, 757s and 767s have been scrapped recently as well. Are we now in an era where airframes are only built to serve (and financed for) 15-20 years, and scrappings like this will be common?

I dont think so.

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 13):
A320 being scraped? That is just plain stupid. I wonder why nobody buys them. They could be converted to cargo. How much is the cost to purchase one?

It has to happen to some.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 19):
Sometimes airplanes that are 15-20 years old are worth more in parts than they are worth as a whole.....with the huge number of A320s of various ages in service worldwide, I am sure that the parts pulled from these four airplanes are quite valuable.

I think a lot of posters have answered the question, but I think that the underlying question is about the 320 itself, and is this a sign of some sort, and I think it is.

I think that since the 320 is so very good at what it does, and that most of them are flying, spares must be scarce. A quick look at the Airbus website will show you that almost all the 320s sold are in use.

It is most likely a sign of the SUCCESS of the 320 that certain ones must be singled out and scrapped. These just happen to be a few of the most likely candidates that got caught in between operators.

All of this is just my take on it, even '63 Split Window Coupe Corvettes get parted out on occasion.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood,

Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:40 am

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 26):
1) The planes had only 166,000 MTOW, lower than later A320 models
2) The engines were CFM56-3 and not the later -5 model.

Sounds strange - from what I have read NWA only operates -211 (CFM56-A1) and -212 (CFM56-5A3) models, all with the same MTOW. More exactly, 29 out of 73 frames are -211 models.

Quoting Nitrohelper (Reply 28):
When do you think NWA will have all their DC-9s retired ?
What will they buy to replace them?

They have reduced the DC-9 fleet by almost a third within one year, but I have no idea when it's over finally. As long as NWA faces financial trouble, a direct replacement appears unlikely. Further shrinking seems likely, probably followed by an order for a 70-100 seater later.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
bobnwa
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:44 am

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 26):
These A320s were mixed in with the rest of the A320 fleet but became a problem when they turned up to operate transcons. They were very difficult to dispatch on these routes. They were a de-facto subfleet with operational issues

Northwest has not flown transcon since it closed its BOS hub many years ago.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:51 am

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 31):
Northwest has not flown transcon since it closed its BOS hub many years ago.

I guess the comment refers to "almost transcons" like DTW-SFO which may take longer than five hours.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
BR715-A1-30
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:57 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 15):
N307US 49,931Hrs/21946 Cycles
N308US 49,291Hrs/21760 Cycles

HA!, The DC9-10s were retired with upwards of 100,000 hours

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 17):
Perhaps it's because the currently built A320s have lots of modifications that the 1988-1990-builds do not have

Yeah, Comparing NWs older A320s and Frontier's newer A319s, the A320 family has gone through SEVERAL modifications, including newer door mechanisms, newer flight deck software and hardware just to name a couple.
Puhdiddle
 
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breiz
Posts: 1418
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 26):
Thus, the leases on these planes were rejected in bankruptcy.

The lessee, and not NWA, decided to part them out because they were worth more parted out than they were whole.

Interesting but to my knowledge these planes are in Northwest's books, not leased.
Do you have the name of the lessee/bank/financial institution which is supposed to own them?
 
m404
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:38 am

I am curious as to who decided on Greenwood as the dismantling site. If ther were owned by NWA then it's very understandable as a long established contractor with them. If it was a leasing company then that decision may be more telling. Did NWA arrange this for the real owner?
Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
nwafflyer
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:46 am

Acidradio -- love your post

This goes to show once again that when NW Airbuses go to the scrapyard, the pilots who flew them there will come home on a NW DC9

I'm only going to be flying another 15 - 20 years - how many of those years will be on the good old dc9?

Flew one to Atlanta -- self reclining seat -- took off, and almost flipped upside down -- had to wait until a good 25 minutes had passed to bring the seat back upright.

But, better than the drink spill/baby puke seat I took home last Friday - was last to board - sat on a blanket
 
AirbusA6
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:59 am

Rogue A320 models may be scrapped for spares, as there are lots of current users needing spare parts. The same doesn't apply to DC9s as nobody else used them anymore apart from NW Wink

It does seem a little odd, scrapping A320s, as it's not like scrapping inefficient old planes (e.g. 747 classics) and replacing them with modern more efficient ones (e.g. 773ERs), as A320s are still current, efficient planes and until the NG narrowbodies come out, there's no significant fuel saving to be made...
it's the bus to stansted (now renamed National Express a6 to ruin my username)
 
Oroka
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:03 am

What about insurance costs of operating a older/high hour aircraft that would be more prone to equipment failures simply due to its age? Could a high insurance cost per airframe be prohibitive to operating these aircraft?
 
FL370
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:05 am

ya the planes might of had a lot of cycles, to the point were scrapping them was the only way to save money on maintanence and such. sad to see such a good airplane get scrapped.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:03 am

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 27):
Most likely Ch.11 is the cause - the DC-9s are owned, while many A32X are leased.

The A319's in the desert have been there since before NWA went into Ch. 11 I believe. NWA's parked fleet alone is pretty large. In Minneapolis alone they seem to be able to pull 744's and DC-10's out of thin air. More than once I've seen one of their 744's for the Tokyo run have an issue, they just pull out another one (in the old red and gray colors). When one of their A333's got diverted for medical reasons, they just pulled out an old DC-10-30. My guess here is that they cut SO much mainline capacity, they could afford to lose a few frames, and the A320's were worth money in parts. It amazes me to see NWA destroy anything, since they are like the plane packrats of the airline industry.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 27):
I wouldn't be so sure - they're currently down to around 102 from 146 only one year ago, which is a massive reduction.

Last year they underwent a large capacity reduction. They are for the most part done cutting capacity. Naturally when NWA went to cut their capacity, they started with the old fuel thirsty long beach liners.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 27):
Probably there are some airlines who love to pay list prices, but the smart negotiators definitely don't.

Some airlines don't love to, but it's what they end up paying.

Quoting Nitrohelper (Reply 28):

When do you think NWA will have all their DC-9s retired ?
What will they buy to replace them?
Has anyone heard about this happening?

NWA has been mum on the issue. They can only eliminate so many DC-9s before ordering they have to order new aircraft to replace them. The word here in Minneapolis is that NWA is giving serious considderation to the E-170/E-190 family. There has also been talk that they'd considder CRJ7 and CRJ9's, because Bombardier is holding onto a sizable deposit on a cancelled CRJ order. We can only guess when the order will happen. I've heard a lot more about NWA looking at the E-Jets than anything else, but my guess is they are going to wait to see how reliable the E-Jets work out being before they decide.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 30):
Quoting Brons2 (Reply 26):
1) The planes had only 166,000 MTOW, lower than later A320 models
2) The engines were CFM56-3 and not the later -5 model.

Sounds strange - from what I have read NWA only operates -211 (CFM56-A1) and -212 (CFM56-5A3) models, all with the same MTOW. More exactly, 29 out of 73 frames are -211 models.

No, there is truth to this, they were eliminating their 56-3 jets as part of their capacity reduction - and also to unify the fleet with all -5's.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 30):
Quoting Nitrohelper (Reply 28):
When do you think NWA will have all their DC-9s retired ?
What will they buy to replace them?

They have reduced the DC-9 fleet by almost a third within one year, but I have no idea when it's over finally. As long as NWA faces financial trouble, a direct replacement appears unlikely. Further shrinking seems likely, probably followed by an order for a 70-100 seater later.

I think they're almost done getting rid of DC-9s for a little while at least, until an order for new jets materializes. I wouldn't expect the order right away either. NW didn't get the best of terms on their exit financing apparently (the loan is secured against the fleet, they couldn't get unsecured credit) and being that they did not cancel or defer their order on their A330s, nor their 787s, i'm guessing there isn't a ton of spare cash around for new mainline jets. For now the DC-9s are working, and what they lack in fuel efficiency they make up for in being paid for. My guess is that by 2010, we'll see the DC jets out the NW fleet. The new pilots contract gives more favorable terms to the airline on opperating regional jets, so that coupled with fuel costs, will make a new jet attractive as soon as buying it becomes practical.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 32):
Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 31):
Northwest has not flown transcon since it closed its BOS hub many years ago.

I guess the comment refers to "almost transcons" like DTW-SFO which may take longer than five hours.

NWA's centrally placed hubs eliminate the need for direct transcons (for better or worse). They still fly some long routes. DTW-SAN is a haul, no matter how you slice it.

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 36):
I'm only going to be flying another 15 - 20 years - how many of those years will be on the good old dc9?

You're on the final stretch. Maybe another 4-5 years tops and we'll have to say bye to the old DC's.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
burnsie28
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:49 am

Ok, one thing here, something isnt right, no reason why N302NW is being scrapped, it had it's D-check about a year ago, because its in the new livery, and they wouldn't have bothered repainting or doing the D check if they were going to scrap it just a year later.

NW N302NW in NC
 
brons2
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:13 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 32):

I guess the comment refers to "almost transcons" like DTW-SFO which may take longer than five hours.

correct.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:29 pm

Some people don't get it:

-NW DID NOT DECIDE TO SCRAP THESE AIRCRAFT. IT WAS THE LEASING COMPANY!!!!! During Ch. 11, NW renegotiated aircraft leases, and some aircraft were returned to the leasing company either because NW wanted to remove the aircraft from service or the leasing party and the airline could not come to agreeable terms. Once the lease was rejected, NW could care less what the leasing company did with the aircraft. NW at this point has nothing to do with the aircraft.

-Huge spare parts market for A320 aircraft. Look at the 1,000's of A320 series aircraft flying around the world. There is a huge market for spare/replacement parts, and refurbished parts can be used in many situations. Parts such as engines, pylons, landing gear, doors, emergency exits, cargo doors, APU, cockpit instruments, radios, lavatories, overhead bins, passenger service units, etc. This aircraft is full of parts that can be sold for use by other airlines. In all likelihood, this aircraft is fully depreciated in the leasing company's books, or they can write-off was is left, and pocket the cash from selling the parts.

-Stagnation for older, used, A320 aircraft on the leasing market. Airbus has shown a desire to offer very favorable prices and terms for new-build A320 aircraft. This has killed the second-hand A320 market for older aircraft. Who wants a 16 year-old A320 when newer second-hand aircraft or new-build aircraft can be easily obtained. These 5 aircraft would likely become odd-balls wherever they would end up.

-Aircraft Financing - No airline pays all of the up-front costs at once. Same as most people don't pay the entire price of the car at once. Hence why airlines lease aircraft or have very complex financing arrangements with banks to pay for new aircraft.

-NW capacity reductions: For the most part, NW is done reducing capacity in the fleet. These were some of the earlier cuts made during Ch. 11. They rejected leases and parked un-needed capacity. NW is now starting to slowly restore some of that capacity. The DC-9 fleet will remain near constant now until the replacement is announced and comes online. THe DC-9 capacity will be needed to backfill some of the lost capacity with the remainder of the Avro fleet being removed from service this fall. Some 757 aircraft will return from storage too.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:12 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 9):
"One carrier and an average of 15 years" - who told you that?

It's just my opinion, which obviously differs from yours. My point is, that a higher-time A320 is less likely to get as much attention on the 2nd hand market after 15 years of flying, and that when they get to about an average of 15 years, they more likely are going to be headed for the scrap heap because the money from the parts are worth so much more than the airframe as a whole. It's more of a value in the long term to order a new airframe than refurbish an old one. The metal is more useful elsewhere, as are the parts.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 9):
Also, the upcoming A320 freighter conversion program indicates there's more life in the frame than often suggested.

Well, the Convair 880 was thought to be a great candidate for that also, but we see where that went.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 9):
A32X series aircraft are not necessarily cheaper.

List price they maybe comparable, but actual slae price to individual carriers, Airbus undercuts Boeing by a mile, or at least they did back in the 90's leading into the millenium.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 9):
Both B737 and A32X series aircraft are capable of quick & cheap operations. There's no clear preference of LCCs or legacy carriers for one of the two families.

Yes there is, just take a look at how many of the low-cost carriers worldwide are flooding EADS with orders for the A320 family for aircraft.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 9):
Which ones? Most A320 and B737NG customers will wait for the successors of these families.

Both, but more so the A320 customers since the A320 is a 20 year-old design. The NG737's economics will continue to be competitive in the early-going when the newer design goes into production.

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 9):
They haven't been killed off yet - they're still very popular as used frames, e.g. there are hardly any B735s and B734s available. The number of scrapped B733/735/735 is still marginal.

Marginal, but ever increasing except for the 3rd world and freighter market.

Quoting AirMailer (Reply 10):
I think that Boeing recently commented that 737s are used by something like 75% or 80% of all LCCs throughout the world.

And you have this quote on hand? Well obviously Boeing is going to toot their horns, and I bet Airbus believes the same. But what do the statistics say? My bet is that the Airbus A320 family is the aircraft of choice to LCC's

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 23):
They have a number of A319 and A320's parked however. Expect them to scrap more is my guess.

Well, the A319's are still very sellable.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 23):
I dunno. With their flying into smaller airports and insane numbers of cycles, the rugged 737 is probably a good choice for them either way. They've had ample opportunity to buy Airbus A320, but for what WN does, 737 works well for them.

WN is purely Boeings #1 customer, but if WN was starting up today, I think they would've gone Airbus. David Neeleman said in his autobio, that he was about to order Boeing when selecting on a fleet type, when Airbus came in with a last minute offer for a deal that he said he couldn't refuse.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 19):
I am a Boeing guy, and even I cannot accept that Airbus produces airplanes not designed for more than 15 years of use......

Well, considering how close these aircraft are to one another in delivery leads me to believe that this isn't a case of poorly maintained airframes, and i'm not saying that they have a strict service life of 15 years, but 4 aircraft reletively close to one another seems awfully coincidental

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 19):
Again, we are talking about 4 airplanes here......a financial decision was made to break them up. Lets not overgeneralize.

Yes, 4 airplanes, financial decision, weren't worth spending the money to overhaul.

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 23):
Which simply continues to prove that the Douglas DC-9 is simply the finest airliner ever built.

Well, personally I think the 707 was, but why split hairs
Made from jets!
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood,

Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:49 pm

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 44):
Airbus undercuts Boeing by a mile, or at least they did back in the 90's leading into the millenium.

Airbus did so to break into certain markets, and they were able to due to lower production costs. Though, after Boeing reduced production costs that clear advantage was gone.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 44):
Yes there is, just take a look at how many of the low-cost carriers worldwide are flooding EADS with orders for the A320 family for aircraft.

Boeing gets its share as well, considering the large numbers of NGs ordered by LCCs like Air India Express, AirTran, GOL, Lion Airlines, Ryanair, SkyEurope, Southwest, SpiceJet, Virgin Blue or WestJet.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 44):
Both, but more so the A320 customers since the A320 is a 20 year-old design. The NG737's economics will continue to be competitive in the early-going when the newer design goes into production.

The B737NG doesn't enjoy a clear advantage, both families have been in a head-to-head race all the time. The A320 has been improved over the years and still gets updates, e.g. winglets and enhanced engines. So it will continue to be competitive.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 44):
Marginal, but ever increasing except for the 3rd world and freighter market.

B737s classics are still popular all over the world, not just in 3rd world countries or as freighter.

Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 44):
Neeleman said in his autobio, that he was about to order Boeing when selecting on a fleet type, when Airbus came in with a last minute offer for a deal that he said he couldn't refuse.

That was years ago when Airbus still enjoyed a massive production costs advantage and when Boeing's marketing strategy wasn't the best.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
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jetjack74
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:43 pm

Quoting M404 (Reply 35):
I am curious as to who decided on Greenwood as the dismantling site. If ther were owned by NWA then it's very understandable as a long established contractor with them. If it was a leasing company then that decision may be more telling. Did NWA arrange this for the real owner?

Greenwood/Leflore is home to a company called, The Memphis Group, which is a salvage company that NWA buys remanufactured parts from at wholesale prices, which is one of the reasons why almost the DC10-40 fleet was retired to Greenwood, so that spare parts on the DC10-30's remained economical. TMG has long been a source of spares for NWA for existing fleet types. NWA and it's lessors usually send business there way. Another site in Maxton/Laurinburg in NC, which generally recieves NWA aircraft every few years is also another supplier for us.
Made from jets!
 
Aviator27
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:50 pm

Are we now in an era where airframes are only built to serve (and financed for) 15-20 years, and scrappings like this will be common?

You hit the nail right on the head. Airbus airplanes are only designed for 15-20 year life span. Boeing was kicking themselves when they found the B727 was lasting too long. Then these airplanes found a new lease on life as freighters. The high cost of fuel and heavy checks quickly saw the B727 disappear from passenger service.
 
PlaneHunter
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood,

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:00 pm

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 47):
Airbus airplanes are only designed for 15-20 year life span.

Numerous A300 and A310 operators would certainly disagree.


PH
Nothing's worse than flying the same reg twice!
 
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DL_Mech
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RE: 4 Northwest A320s Being Scrapped At Greenwood, MS!

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:10 pm

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 41):
Ok, one thing here, something isnt right, no reason why N302NW is being scrapped, it had it's D-check about a year ago, because its in the new livery, and they wouldn't have bothered repainting or doing the D check if they were going to scrap it just a year later.

Contrary to A.net belief, new liveries and D-checks do not go hand in hand. At several airlines, planes are painted on a specific schedule.
This plane is built to withstand anything... except a bad pilot.