leelaw
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FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:49 am

Airbus chief salesman John Leahy was like the cat that got the cream at the Farnborough air show when he finally won clearance to unveil the manufacturer's all-new medium-capacity offering - the "A350 Xtra Wide Body [XWB]..."

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...h+Airbus+goes+for+extra+width.html

Fairly nice comparative cabin cross-section illustration in this overview article.

This article appears in FI this week as well:

Farnborough: Cautious welcome for new A350

Airbus's revamped A350 Xtra Wide Body family has been well received by many of the original A350's customers - as well as one key potential buyer - but the manufacturer looks set for some tough negotiations if it is to convince them to pay more for the improved aircraft and to wait up to two or more years longer for their first deliveries...

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...utious+welcome+for+new+A350++.html

[Edited 2006-07-24 19:56:54]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
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PM
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:55 am

Good article. Early days yet but Airbus seem to have taken at least the first step towards regaining credibility.
 
RichardPrice
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:56 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Fairly nice comparative cabin cross-section illustration in this overview article.

Yes, Ive been waiting for this article to appear on the website, its a nice image - wierd shape for the A350XWB! Its not as clear on the website as it is in print, but the upper and lower fuselage look like a less pronounced RAF Nimrod.

Also notable is the loss of the rear end taper  Sad I quite liked that, although it was probably getting impractical.
 
dank
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Airbus chief salesman John Leahy was like the cat that got the cream at the Farnborough air show when he finally won clearance to unveil the manufacturer's all-new medium-capacity offering - the "A350 Xtra Wide Body [XWB]..."

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...h+Airbus+goes+for+extra+width.html

Fairly nice comparative cabin cross-section illustration in this overview article.

Thanks for the post. More confirmation that the 900R and F are set for the initial launch. Will be interesting to see how many other airlines are interested.

Cheers.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:42 am

I notice they compare an eight abreast A350X with a 9 abrest 777.

Quote:
Airbus's plan to push prices up by over 20% because the new A350 is a "much more impressive aircraft" has not been well received by existing customers.

I wonder if they will let these orders go or eat the cost?

[Edited 2006-07-24 22:46:10]
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:18 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 4):
I notice they compare an eight abreast A350X with a 9 abrest 777.

Is that sort of like comparing "abreast" with "abrest"? You're far too subtle for most of us.
 
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solnabo
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:40 am

If 350-900R gets less pax than 310 (i.e.250) I don´t see any reason for it not to fly LHR-SYD and back.

Wild guess, but one can hope...

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EridanMan
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:48 am

Anyone else see the Emb 'double-bubble' in the new 'bus?

Frankly... as long as they can solve the pressurization issues, it seems like the smart idea.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:50 am

Quoting PM (Reply 5):
s that sort of like comparing "abreast" with "abrest"? You're far too subtle for most of us.

Just a simple typo.

But it's funny that they don't compare apples with apples. Why do you suppose that is?
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:06 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 8):
But it's funny that they don't compare apples with apples. Why do you suppose that is?

God knows but I have no doubt that, in your mission to damn Airbus at every opportunity, you'll be quick to tell us. Happily, it won't be your prejudice that counts but the analysis of professionals in places like, oh, Singapore!
 
BoomBoom
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:13 pm

Gee, I point out an obvious truth and you go ballistic!

I sure SQ was not the least bit swayed by that cheesy little Airbus trick--they got a super deal. Compensation, you know...
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Aviator27
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:24 pm

Quoting BoomBoom

I notice they compare an eight abreast A350X with a 9 abrest 777.


From all the research and posts that I have ran across, I think there are only two airlines that run the B777 in 10 abreast. That would be Emirates and China Airlines (correct me if I'm wrong on this).

The comparison charts shown in the Flight Global Article was excellent. I can't wait to hear what Randy has to say about this.
 
BoomBoom
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 11):
From all the research and posts that I have ran across, I think there are only two airlines that run the B777 in 10 abreast

And your point is what?

Most airlines use 9 across in the 777 and will in the A350X as well.

So the comparison charts shown in the Flight Global Article should have shown 9 across for both models.
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Tugger
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:46 pm

Hey, regarding the "double bubble" concept, when I look at the "old 350" (o350?) and the A350X the lower section appears to be the same.

Is this possible?? Could they utilize the lower portion of their o350 for the A350X? It seems to me to be a way to save some development cost and be able to utilize some of the tooling. But I don't know much in this area.

I know the cross section's in the article don't really provide a way to definitively answer this but I would like better minds input on this.

Thanks,

Tug

Edited to say: Thanks Dank,reply=14, I am reading the complete article just now.

[Edited 2006-07-25 07:13:44]
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dank
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:07 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 13):
Hey, regarding the "double bubble" concept, when I look at the "old 350" (o350?) and the A350X the lower section appears to be the same.

Is this possible?? Could they utilize the lower portion of their o350 for the A350X? It seems to me to be a way to save some development cost and be able to utilize some of the tooling. But I don't know much in this area.

I know the cross section's in the article don't really provide a way to definitively answer this but I would like better minds input on this.

Thanks,

Tug

From said article:

"For the first time in a twin-aisle Airbus, the fuselage will be a double-lobe ovoid design, with the lower section being essentially the same as the A300/A330/A340 and sized to accommodate two standard LD-3 containers side-by-side."

So, it will be quite similar. Whether the engineering from the old 350 translates to the new one is unclear.

Cheers.
 
ikramerica
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:32 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 12):
So the comparison charts shown in the Flight Global Article should have shown 9 across for both models.

Yes, i would have thought they would show 9Y for the 787, 350 and 777 to show how good the 350 is. Problem is, 777 would look roomier. But so what? It's also heavier, 20 years old (by 2013) and far less efficient.

Showing the 8Y 350 shows how impractical it will be for carriers to even consider 8Y. Too luxurious. But it will be a great plane in 9Y and 8Y+.
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Aviator27
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:33 pm

BoomBoom my point is, the B777 is designed for 9 abreast but can fit 10 abreast. However majority of airlines use it for what it was designed for. The A350XWB is designed as an 8 abreast but can fit 9 abreast. Using the same logic, most airlines will probably configure it for 8 abreast. That is the only basis I have. What basis do you have that most airlines will cram 9 abreast into the A350XWB?
 
BoomBoom
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:47 pm

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 16):
What basis do you have that most airlines will cram 9 abreast into the A350XWB?

Because that was the whole point of scrapping the old A350 and introducing the wider fuselage A350X--to allow for 9 across seating.

Also 2/3 of airlines ordering the 787 are planning 9 across. There is no way the A350 will be competitive with only 8, given it will be heavier--since it lacks a CRFP fuselage.

What basis do you have that most airlines will use only 8 abreast into the A350XWB?
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astuteman
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:20 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Thread starter):
Fairly nice comparative cabin cross-section illustration in this overview article.

Thanks for the link again, Leelaw. The hard copy article also carries a handy little specification comparison table between the A350X, 787, and 777 family members (and also confirms seating numbers are 9-abreast...).

(separate subject - have you managed to find a linkt to the "GEnx offered for future A330s" article yet?)

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 4):
I wonder if they will let these orders go or eat the cost?

Don't know for certain, but comments by the airlines that have committed, like Finnair, indicate that there is an element of "cost-eating" going on.
Don't suppose Airbus have many choices.
Still, it's amazing how many cost improvements can be delivered in 6 years to restore profitability....  biggrin 

Quoting EridanMan (Reply 7):
Anyone else see the Emb 'double-bubble' in the new 'bus?

Me too

Regards
 
jonathan-l
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:24 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 17):
Also 2/3 of airlines ordering the 787 are planning 9 across

I've also read and seen this. Is there a list of these airlines?
 
atmx2000
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:34 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 15):
Showing the 8Y 350 shows how impractical it will be for carriers to even consider 8Y. Too luxurious. But it will be a great plane in 9Y and 8Y+.

I'm not sure based on the cross section. It looks like the height is less than the 787, which may make the area similar, but I really can't tell from the FI diagram. The cross sectional area combined with OEW/length will determine whether 8Y is economical or not.

The shape seems a bit odd, and given that it must have a larger radius at some points along the structure due to the larger diameter, it will require more reinforcing. The 787 is composed of two circular arcs, one of a radius below that of the A300 for the lower section, and a 113" radius upper lobe.

The question would be whether that reinforcing plus the additional material required to cover the larger fuselage will result in a significant weight increase over the old A350, or whether a clean sheet design allows them to optimize weight.
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astuteman
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:42 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 20):
The shape seems a bit odd, and given that it must have a larger radius at some points along the structure due to the larger diameter, it will require more reinforcing. The 787 is composed of two circular arcs, one of a radius below that of the A300 for the lower section, and a 113" radius upper lobe.

Looking at the diagrams (particularly in the hard-copy FI magazine, where they are VERY clear) , I perceive the converse to be true.
The A350X is quite simply "double-bubble" - i.e. a larger diameter circle, sitting on a smaller diameter one. The interface between the two circles quite clearly occurs at the deck line, thus allowing an existing structure to provide the necessary reinforcement.
Very sensible  checkmark 

OTOH, from the diagrams, the 787 looks to me like a "pure" ovoid.

Regards
 
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scbriml
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:47 pm

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 8):
But it's funny that they don't compare apples with apples. Why do you suppose that is?

You'd have to ask FI seeing as the article and diagram is theirs and not Airbus's. Good try though.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 10):
I sure SQ was not the least bit swayed by that cheesy little Airbus trick--they got a super deal. Compensation, you know...

So you think Airbus has just paid SQ for the delays to the A380 by giving them 48 widebodies? rotfl 
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atmx2000
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:54 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 21):
OTOH, from the diagrams, the 787 looks to me like a "pure" ovoid.

Big version: Width: 720 Height: 540 File size: 81kb
Annotated widebodyphotog's 787 cross section diagram


If widebodyphotog cross section is diagram, and my playing around in powerpoint is accurate, the 787 is composed of two circular arcs.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 21):
The A350X is quite simply "double-bubble" - i.e. a larger diameter circle, sitting on a smaller diameter one. The interface between the two circles quite clearly occurs at the deck line, thus allowing an existing structure to provide the necessary reinforcement.

Looking at the electronic edition picture, my feeling is that top section is ovoid and squished vertically, as the distance from the top of the fuselage to the level of the widest point of the fuselage appears to be less than half of the fuselage width. The curvature is greater at the sides than at the top. I don't think the new A350 will get the benefit of the full width increase as a result of that, maybe 5" to 6". Scratch that - they say they only get 8cm of benefit over the 787 despite a 19cm increase, which seems pretty inefficient. That is like due to the high curvature at the sides. It seems to me that the 9 abreast seats will have seat bottoms around 17.6", and not the 18" I expected. On the other hand in 8Y they ought to have greater than 19" seats, though they only quote 48cm or ~18.9".

The numbers they are quoting for capacity don't make sense unless they are for 9 abreast. A 64m A359 (I believe that is the length) isn't likely to have enough cabin length to fit 310 passengers with 8Y if a 64m 772ER can't do so with 9Y, unless Airbus is quoting a high mix of economy passengers, or unless the cabin is a lot longer than I expect.

If the height is about the same, then the cross sectional area is greater for the new A350. Unless they get significant weight savings from a new design and new construction techniques they will end up with a higher weight for the A350.
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ComeAndGo
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:12 pm

The comparison chart is to illustrate the new A350 vs the old A350 / A330 / A340. Therefore it's 8 seats across. The 787 / 777 cross-sections are added as a reference.
 
astuteman
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:21 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 23):
If widebodyphotog cross section is diagram, and my playing around in powerpoint is accurate, the 787 is composed of two circular arcs.

Certainly won't pick a fight with you over the 787.......... Smile

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 23):
Looking at the electronic edition picture, my feeling is that top section is ovoid and squished vertically

I'm pretty sure the A350X is a simple double-bubble

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 23):
The numbers they are quoting for capacity don't make sense unless they are for 9 abreast

According to FI, the numbers ARE for 9-abreast  checkmark 

Quoting ComeAndGo (Reply 24):
The comparison chart is to illustrate the new A350 vs the old A350 / A330 / A340. Therefore it's 8 seats across. The 787 / 777 cross-sections are added as a reference

In the hard-copy article, there is a table below the cross-section comparisons, which states all capacities as "Three-class, 9 abreast", as follows:-

A350-800 270
787-8 250
A350-900 314
787-9 290
777-200ER 301
787-10 320
A350-1000 350
777-300ER 365

Regards
 
atmx2000
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:43 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 25):
I'm pretty sure the A350X is a simple double-bubble

The article is calling it a double lobe ovoid design.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 25):
In the hard-copy article, there is a table below the cross-section comparisons, which states all capacities as "Three-class, 9 abreast", as follows:-

A350-800 270
787-8 250
A350-900 314
787-9 290
777-200ER 301
787-10 320
A350-1000 350
777-300ER 365

I don't think using the upper end of the range Boeing gave is accurate if a specific configuration is in mind. The 787-8 example 9Y config is 237 pax and the -9 is 280. The -800 is clearly in the same class as the -9. It uses engines of slight higher thrust to carry a similar number of passengers a similar distance.
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astuteman
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:51 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 26):
I don't think using the upper end of the range Boeing gave is accurate if a specific configuration is in mind. The 787-8 example 9Y config is 237 pax and the -9 is 280

FWIW, I posted the numbers as I expected you to have an informed commentary as to what they signified. Many thanks for responding as such (thumbsup).

At least, if the comparison is made using "upper end" 787/777 seating figures, it is less likely to exxagerate the A350's competitiveness.......... Smile

Regards
 
Motorhussy
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:39 pm

Well it all sounds like good news for airlines and the flying public.

Regards
MH
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zvezda
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:29 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 2):
wierd shape for the A350XWB!

I think it's a great shape. It's aesthetically pleasing from both a visual and an engineering perspective.

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 4):
I wonder if they will let these orders go or eat the cost?

I would certainly expect Airbus to honour the contractual sales price for firm orders already signed.

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 16):
The A350XWB is designed as an 8 abreast but can fit 9 abreast. Using the same logic, most airlines will probably configure it for 8 abreast.

I don't believe either of those statements. I believe the A350 was designed for 9 abreast seating, though obviously 8 abreast (or 2 abreast) could be accommodated if an airline were to so choose. Since most airlines are configuring their B787s for 9 abreast, it seems obvious that they will configure the even wider A350 for 9 abreast also.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 21):
The A350X is quite simply "double-bubble" - i.e. a larger diameter circle, sitting on a smaller diameter one. The interface between the two circles quite clearly occurs at the deck line, thus allowing an existing structure to provide the necessary reinforcement.
Very sensible

That would be a classic design.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 21):
OTOH, from the diagrams, the 787 looks to me like a "pure" ovoid.

I don't believe either the A350 or the B787 have exactly double-bubble cross sections. I believe both are close, but have gradually varying radii near the floor.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 22):
So you think Airbus has just paid SQ for the delays to the A380 by giving them 48 widebodies?

I don't think even SQ are that good negotiators. I expect some cash will be flowing from SQ to Airbus as part of this deal to compensate for all the WhaleJet delays. Airbus would have insisted on more than just settling the account and the prestige of an SQ launch order. It costs a lot of money to build 48 widebodies.
 
leelaw
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:06 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
Quoting Scbriml (Reply 22):
So you think Airbus has just paid SQ for the delays to the A380 by giving them 48 widebodies?

I don't think even SQ are that good negotiators. I expect some cash will be flowing from SQ to Airbus as part of this deal to compensate for all the WhaleJet delays. Airbus would have insisted on more than just settling the account and the prestige of an SQ launch order. It costs a lot of money to build 48 widebodies.

Ah, now I understand your earlier remark, forgive my boneheaded IM this morning.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
ikramerica
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:39 am

Let's fix this a bit to reflect the typical manufacturer numbers and put them in order of size:

787-8º (LR) 187
787-8 224
787-8† (9Y) 237
787-9 260
A350-800 270
787-9† (9Y) 280
787-10* 290
777-200ER/LR 301
A350-900 314
787-10*† (9Y) 320
A350-1000 350
777-300ER 365

*estimated
†not maximum 3-class, but "typical" 9Y config.
ºLR="long range" config with a "real" cabin (from Boeing document, 8F/32J/147Y in 8Y configuration, with F sleep pods, J flat seats, and 32" Y seat pitch)

Has airbus published 8Y numbers?

It would also seem that Airbus has truly surrendered the 788 sized market to Boeing at this time, and that's where most of the orders for the 787 have come from so far.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
antares
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:04 am

Gentlemen,

I have the scaled drawings of typical 787 configurations Boeing has sent to the airports of the world.

The 787 in -3 and -8 is shown as 317 passengers at 24 F (38inches) and 293 Y at 31/32 inches.

The 787-8 in long haul configuration is shown at 237 passengers, 14 F (61 inches) J 44 (39 inches) and Y 179 (31/32)

The 787-9 is shown in only one configuration of 280 seats, 16 F, 50J and 214 Y at similar pitches.

The diagrams are a huge disappointment to those of us who wanted to see something spacious, however, the seat pitches used for the premium cabins are for old fashioned seats of the type only a US carrier would try and get away with, so I hope for much better from SQ even though like Qantas they will go for 9 across in Y because the world has changed for the worse, and will stay that way in terms of fuel costs.

The nine across seat in an ex-Dreamliner will be a 737 sized or A330/340 sized seat give or take a few mm. The nine across seat in the A350 will now be an A320 seat, and the nine abreast seat in a 777 which I fear will decline into rarity in coming years will cotninue to be close to an EMB 170/190 sized seat, and damned good, so use them while you can.

If anyone hasn't a copy of this 'brochure' intended for airports and released by Boeing in April of this year send me a message via a/net with the preferred email address. I am in Fiji, in fact in a remoter, technologically challenged part of Fiji so it may take me a while to send them, and I think it was posted on the forum some time back anyhow, but probably ignored because it is not a happy read.

Antares
 
BoomBoom
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:11 am

Quoting Antares (Reply 32):
The nine across seat in the A350 will now be an A320 seat,

What is your source for this?

What is the width of an A320 seat anyway? Doesn't it vary from airline to airline? Northwest uses a 17.2" seat.

I've read that the A350X will be 5 inches wider at "eye level" and at the level of the seat armrest it will be 4 inches wider than the 787.

So eye level, armrest level, what about the width at seat level? Assuming it's still 4 inches wider at seat level that's about .44 inches or 1 cm per seat wider.

If Airbus wants to talk up this difference then they will have to also acknowledge that the A350X is much smaller than the the 777. At armrest level, the cabin of the A350X will be 218 inches, compared with 231 inches for the 777. A whopping 13 inches smaller!

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/277877_airshow18.htm
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...h+Airbus+goes+for+extra+width.html
http://seatguru.com/airlines/Northwe...Northwest_Airlines_Airbus_A320.php
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atmx2000
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 29):
I don't believe either the A350 or the B787 have exactly double-bubble cross sections. I believe both are close, but have gradually varying radii near the floor.

If widebodyphotog's cross section diagram is accurate, the top lobe does not have a varying radius, while the bottom lobe does near the floor to allow for joining with the top lobe.

I'm guessing the top lobe of the new A350 varies quite a bit.

Quoting Antares (Reply 32):
If anyone hasn't a copy of this 'brochure' intended for airports and released by Boeing in April of this year send me a message via a/net with the preferred email address

You can get it from the Boeing web site.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
antares
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:04 am

Boom boom,

That's all true. The 777 cross section is terrific but as I said, under threat from a changed world. You may have noticed that the indicative diagrams shown by Boeing have ten abreast in the main cabin, even the one that showed 301 seats in the -200LR. Deplorable, but it will become a fact of life.

I don't see how Airbus can fit ten across in the A350 XWB, but someone mentioned that tour operators do eight across in 767s so the unthinkable may be possible.

Northwest uses a 737 sized seat in the A320s. Flew it once. Shithouse. Both the airline (which I flew over the years in a range of other types) and the seat. At least they can't do six across in a DC-9. The only decent seats I ever saw in a standard cabin on the old Northwest Orient were in piston engined Douglas airliners, I'm sure a DC 4 and maybe a DC6 or -6B.

Antares
 
BoomBoom
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:22 am

Quoting Antares (Reply 35):
You may have noticed that the indicative diagrams shown by Boeing have ten abreast in the main cabin,

How many airlines actually use this?
Our eyes are open, our eyes are open--wide, wide, wide...
 
zvezda
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:37 am

Quoting BoomBoom (Reply 36):

How many airlines actually use this?

As far as I know, EK and TG are with only airlines with B777s configured 10 abreast.
 
antares
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:44 am

To Australia Emirates and China Southern. In the pipeline according to the retail trade are Asiana, All Nippon and Japan Airlines. Reminds me of the period when a very few carriers went from 9 to 10 across in the 747s and bingo, all of a sudden everyone was doing it.

Why do I think this is happening. $75 a barrel and benchmarking by airlines when they try to compare lowest cost per seat calculations against their most difficult competitors. If you see the guy with the miserable tight seats beating you on price and market share you have no option but to follow.

I'd be concerned this will continue even if oil falls, because the major hedge funds are leery of getting back into oil at this stage. The carriers that did it were starting to win the bets (like Southwest) and were a getting a bit like gambers in a casino after the management decides they are winning too often.

Antares
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:28 am

Quoting Antares (Reply 35):
You may have noticed that the indicative diagrams shown by Boeing have ten abreast in the main cabin, even the one that showed 301 seats in the -200LR. Deplorable, but it will become a fact of life.

Funny, but these cabin layouts for the 772LR at 301 pax sure look like they have 9 A/B in Y class

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/777family/pf/pf_seating_charts.html
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
antares
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:49 am

Feeble eyesight. But thank goodness. Can you imagine 20 hours in a 777-200LR in ten abreast...seated next to me....
 
OldAeroGuy
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:04 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 40):
Can you imagine 20 hours in a 777-200LR in ten abreast...seated next to me....

I'm sure it would be a lot of fun.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Motorhussy
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RE: FI: Airbus Goes For Extra Width

Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:46 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 40):
Feeble eyesight. But thank goodness. Can you imagine 20 hours in a 777-200LR in ten abreast...seated next to me....

I just had 4 hrs from APW to AKL with a New Zealand Government Minister snoring on my shoulder on an A320. 20 hrs with you at 10 abreast on a T7 gives me not just the heeby-geebies and the willies, but the creeps as well... and I don't even know you.
come visit the south pacific