poh2
Posts: 177
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2003 5:54 am

Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:31 am

Hi guys!

Just retuned to Venezuela yesterday after spending 10 days in Europe. My flight home was via CDG to CCS on AF 460 operated by a B744. I was lucky enough to get a window seat in the upper deck and was amazed at the difference in comfort compared to the seats on the lower deck. There must be at least 2 inches more legroom and there are PTVs (whereas the lower deck doesn't)! I thought this upper deck was reserved for elite FlyingBlue members but somehow I got lucky and landed upstairs.

Anyways, here's my real question: the flight was totally packed. Of the 450+ passengers on board, however, there were only about 100 at the baggage claim area. Obviously a lot of people were connecting to Quito, Lima, etc, but I'm still amazed that it was well over 60% of all PAX. Air France doesn't even code-share on these connecting flights (they're operated by TACA, Aeropostal, Avianca). So my question is, how do so many people end up booking such a strange flight? It's not like your typical PAX that wants to go to UIO from CDG automatically thinks "oh, I'll fly AF to CCS and then I'll just jump on VH to UIO." They would have to book two separate tickets...what a mess!

Why doesn't AF codeshare with TACA or someone else and make it easier for all these connecting PAX?

What do you think? Any input will be appreciated...

Thanks!
Patrick
"Life is too short to take everything seriously."
 
JBLUA320
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RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:05 am

I guess they just don't see the need to, but it does make you wonder if/when SkyTeam will strengthen its South American presence. SkyTeam has great connections TO South America, but limited possibilities within. Nevertheless it's good for AF that they can fill a 744 to CCS with such strange loads. I would think this would be operated by an Airbus-- but I'm glad to see the 744 on the route.

JBLU
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:14 am

With respect to that, there have been constant rumblings about a possible Air France flight to Panama City (PTY), which would allow for a plethora of connections via Copa, an associated Skyteam member. From what I hear, the CDG PTY flight could happen as soon as next year.
 
777jaah
Posts: 852
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:38 pm

RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:19 am

I thought AV and AF have a code share agreement and those pax could easily connect with AV through BOG. I know for sure I can use my AV FF with AF, even in the BOG-CDG route, so it would make perfect sense to let AV do the connecting flights.


JAAH
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
airportmanager
Posts: 448
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2001 1:49 am

RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:22 am

Wish AF came back to UIO..... doubt it though.... RIGHT?
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:41 am

Quoting Poh2 (Thread starter):
Anyways, here's my real question: the flight was totally packed. Of the 450+ passengers on board, however, there were only about 100 at the baggage claim area. Obviously a lot of people were connecting to Quito, Lima, etc, but I'm still amazed that it was well over 60% of all PAX. Air France doesn't even code-share on these connecting flights (they're operated by TACA, Aeropostal, Avianca). So my question is, how do so many people end up booking such a strange flight? It's not like your typical PAX that wants to go to UIO from CDG automatically thinks "oh, I'll fly AF to CCS and then I'll just jump on VH to UIO." They would have to book two separate tickets...what a mess!

VH offers killers fares from Europe to the Andean Market. Many pax fly VH to LIM, GYE and UIO.

S3 also does the same but they are usually able to fill their 722 with their own feed MAD-CCS.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
Chiguire
Posts: 1848
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:11 pm

RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:43 am

Quoting Poh2 (Thread starter):
They would have to book two separate tickets...what a mess!

You don't need to have a "code-share" agreement in order to cooperate with an airline.
AF has a "SPA" (=special prorate agreement) with almost all airlines connecting in CCS. This means that AF may issue flights of those airlines e.g. VH on their documents and check baggage through.
So I am almost 100% sure that all those passengers have ONE ticket. Otherwise you would have seen them in the baggage area because they would have had to pick-up and check in again their whole baggage !
This is the same way it works for IB, UX, TP. AZ and LH.
 
aloges
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RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting Poh2 (Thread starter):
They would have to book two separate tickets...what a mess!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it very much possible to have just one ticket for travel on any number of IATA member carriers? For example, I've used one ticket issued by LH for three rather absurd legs: one on UA, one on AV and one on RG, all of them requiring connections and the int'l flights from/to Germany on LH codeshare flight numbers.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:01 am

Quoting Airportmanager (Reply 4):
Wish AF came back to UIO..... doubt it though.... RIGHT?

Unlikely, as KLM is taking care of this route 5 times weekly out of AMS.
 
erikgnoha
Posts: 201
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 2:16 am

RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:10 am

Quoting Poh2 (Thread starter):
Anyways, here's my real question: the flight was totally packed.

And it has been like that for quite a while. I flew that route two years ago when it was operated with a A-340-300 and the flight was overbooked, and not only that one, but the rest of the flights of the week was also overbooked. AF offers great fares to Europe connecting through CDG, that is why i took it.
Venezuela, donde los suenos renacen
 
cyba
Posts: 136
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RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:16 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
the CDG PTY flight could happen as soon as next year

Didn't KL fly to PTY until recently? Or am I betraying my age?
 
Chiguire
Posts: 1848
Joined: Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:11 pm

RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 7):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it very much possible to have just one ticket for travel on any number of IATA member carriers? For example, I've used one ticket issued by LH for three rather absurd legs: one on UA, one on AV and one on RG, all of them requiring connections and the int'l flights from/to Germany on LH codeshare flight numbers.

You are not wrong, but the reason that this is possible is not IATA membership. It the the mentioned interline agreememt between the airlines. This may be unilateral e.g. Air France may issue VH legs on their documents, but VH is not allowed to issue AF flights on their VH documents.
 
HB-IWC
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Joined: Fri Sep 22, 2000 1:09 am

RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:36 am

Quoting Cyba (Reply 10):
Didn't KL fly to PTY until recently? Or am I betraying my age?

KLM used to fly to Guatemala, as a tag on to its AMS-MEX flight. I don't think they ever flew to PTY, but I could be wrong.
 
CM767
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RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 2):
the CDG PTY flight could happen as soon as next year.

I hope this happens, people on my company are going to be happy with it.

Quoting Cyba (Reply 10):
Didn't KL fly to PTY until recently? Or am I betraying my age?

Yes KLM operated to PTY years ago, I do not remember exactly when they ended the service.
But The Best Thing God Has Created Is A New Day
 
shamrock104
Posts: 421
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RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:41 am

I guess there weren't too many takers for Chavez's 'Socialist Paradise' then... :0
 
Southamerica
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RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:32 am

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 3):
I thought AV and AF have a code share agreement and those pax could easily connect with AV through BOG.

AviancaPlus members can earn miles on Air France, but Avianca and Air France do not codeshare.

The only European airline that codeshares with Avianca is Iberia.


SOUTHAMERICA
 
WindowSeat
Posts: 1198
Joined: Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:01 am

RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:26 am

CCS is also an oil destination and with Chavez solidifying his position firmly in the OPEC, it makes sense for AF to fly a 744 to CCS - keeping in line with their 'oil destinations' strategy. AF is making money hand over fist with its 'Dedicate' service to oil destinations. I'm not surprised they can fill up a 744 to CCS. I can bet the front is mostly O&D while the back of the plane is sold cheap and with the interline agreements with other airlines, they can get the pax where they need to go.

cheers
I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
 
HB-IWC
Posts: 4033
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RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:32 pm

Quoting WindowSeat (Reply 16):
I can bet the front is mostly O&D while the back of the plane is sold cheap and with the interline agreements with other airlines, they can get the pax where they need to go.

Although what you say is mostly true, CCS is not really a premium destination for Air France. The B744 deployed is configured with a 2-class layout and the number of C-class seats is limited with only 39 seats. If there really were a lot of high yielding front cabin traffic on the route, I am sure AF would deploy the B772ER or B773ER on the route. The planes are configured with a 3-class layout and have a larger C-class cabin.
 
777jaah
Posts: 852
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:38 pm

RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:04 pm

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 15):

Thanks for the correction............I was so sure about it, that I endedup being wrong.......


JAAH
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
hardiwv
Posts: 4341
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RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 17):
The B744 deployed is configured with a 2-class layout and the number of C-class seats is limited with only 39 seats. If there really were a lot of high yielding front cabin traffic on the route, I am sure AF would deploy the B772ER or B773ER on the route

The correct configuration is 40 C seats. (Note the single middle seat in the front cabin! Seat expert is wrong about the info they provide on their website). AF A330 has the same number of C seats: 40. As you said, if CCS was considered a high-yielding market AF could deploy the 3-class B747, the B77W or even the B772 (12P + 56C).

Tks also about the insight on future possibility of AF operating to PTY. It looks interesting and would certainly make connections to Central America easier.

Rgs,
 
HB-IWC
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RE: Air France Flights To CCS: Filling Up A B744?

Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:23 am

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 19):
Tks also about the insight on future possibility of AF operating to PTY. It looks interesting and would certainly make connections to Central America easier.

I know that extensive marketing research has been undertaken with regard to a possible AMS/CDG-PTY route by either KLM or AF. Yet, I believe that the final decision on a go ahead will likely depend on the future of Copa within Skyteam. Copa is currently an associated member of the alliance.