clippern7471sp
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PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:00 am

As a former pan am frequent flyer who flew many american routes on our favorite clippers now past and gone would any one out there or business person consider restarting pana am and bring her out of the moth balls again. It can be done to see the former queen of the skies and the pioneers of aviation who broke records flying around the world and became the first airline to bring the jet age error into the future with 707 jets 747-121 jumbo jets and the first airline to order the baby jumbo jet known as the 747sp speacail preformance jet. we dearly miss her and would like to see pan am re appear in her former decals and flying newer 747 aircraft around the world. what do you all think. Can it be done or not?
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:49 am

Quoting Clippern7471sp (Thread starter):
we dearly miss her



Quoting Clippern7471sp (Thread starter):
Can it be done or not?

What a fantasy. Pan Am's routes, equipment and personnel, all of which "make" a company, were chopped up and sold off to other airlines. All three components were integrated into the operations and cultures of other airlines.

Part of what killed Pan Am (I was there; I was part of the Delta acquisition of the North Atlantic Division) was the inability of the culture to change. Pan Am was VERY old-school at a time when revolutionary ideas about our business were being implemented all around us.

The same people could never recreate a profitable company. And without those people, you would never have the same company.

I have worked for Eastern Air Lines, Pan Am and Delta. Delta is a nice place to work even with all of the financial chaos going on. Eastern was a fun place to work. Pan Am was a chaotic mess of a place to work and had been for decades.

I would guess that what you "miss" so much is the glitz and glamour of the past. That, i'm afraid, is gone forever.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
ksupilot
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:13 pm

There have been attempts at a Pan Am rebirth:

(from Wikipedia.org)

"Pan Am II
A new investment group including Charles Cobb, the former Ambassador to Iceland, purchased the rights to the Pan American brand after the original carrier declared bankruptcy. In September 1996, Pan Am II was started with an Airbus A300 named the Clipper Fair Wind. The goal was to provide low-cost, long-distance travel to major U.S. and Caribbean cities. The new airline was led by the last Vice Chairman and Chief Operations Officer of Pan Am, Marty Shugrue, who also helped in the creation of the WorldPass frequent flyer program and who served as President of American Airlines and later trustee of the Eastern Air Lines estate.
In September 1997, Pan Am Corporation, the airline operation's holding company, bought Carnival Airlines. However, the rapid expansion and economic troubles of the two companies were too much for the new Pan Am—it only survived for two years before declaring bankruptcy. Before Pan Am and Carnival could fully merge, the holding company and its two independently operated airlines, Pan Am and Carnival, filed bankruptcy and ceased scheduled flight operations in February 1998. The operating certificate used for the first reincarnated Pan Am was abandoned in favor of the acquired Carnival's operating certificate. Pan Am, now operating with the Carnival certificate, quickly resumed limited charter operations while new owner Guilford Transportation Industries acquired certain assets of the bankrupt companies after court approval. The new company emerged from bankruptcy in June 1998.

Pan Am III
In June 1998, the Pan Am brand was sold to Guilford Transportation Industries, a railroad company headed by Tim Mellon of the Pittsburgh banking family. Guilford launched Pan American Airways with a fleet of seven Boeing 727s. The third incarnation resumed scheduled operations in October 1999 and flew to nine cities in New England, Florida, the Canadian Maritimes and Puerto Rico. The focus was on secondary airports such as Orlando Sanford International Airport instead of Orlando International Airport, and Pease International Airport and Worcester Regional Airport instead of the crowded Logan International Airport in the Boston area. Pan Am later had cooperative service arrangements with Boston-Maine Airways, a subsidiary incorporated by the airline in March 1999. Guilford ceased operating Pan Am on November 1, 2004. Operations were transferred to Boston-Maine Airways, which resumed 727 service under the "Pan Am Clipper Connection" brand from February 17, 2005."
 
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spinkid
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:19 pm

Go ahead and search, you can fly Pan Am today

www.flypanam.com

basically what you are paying for is to fly on a 727 with the Pan Am logo. I think they are currently serving Atlanta, Tunica, Sanford and Puerto Rico.

we all know they have a terrible track record of going into and out of airports
 
afay1
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:39 pm

Aside from the hilarious spelling errors (not to be overly pedantic), it is an impossible dream. An immediate launch of a large, American, 747-based airline is next to impossible. Only two large American carriers even operate the 747, and both of them have financial difficulties and rapidly aging 747 fleets in dire need of in-cabin overhauls. It would pretty much take the Bill Gates-level capital and even after startup, how could a business model based on essentially an all-first class glamorous experience ever succeed in today's market (it couldn't succeed in even the 1980's market)....
 
cxb744
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:51 pm

Nothing is impossible, but this is improbable.

Someone, or organization, would need to have a lot a cash to literally burn to return Pan Am to the skies. Routes and aircraft have to be obtained as well as ground facilities at airports, not to mention maintenance, reservations, so on and so on.
Delta seems to be filling the Pan Am void has it expands to more and more international destinations.

Would it be great to see Pan Am as an international carrier from the US again, Sure! We all can dream.  cloudnine 
What is it? It's A 747-400, but that's not important right now.
 
ksupilot
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:55 pm

Just on that site right now, all it is Boston-Maine airways painted up like Pan Am.

You can find images on here if you look under Pan Am in 2005 and 2006.
 
steeler83
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:01 pm

Quoting Afay1 (Reply 4):
how could a business model based on essentially an all-first class glamorous experience ever succeed in today's market

I guess if it were to survive beyond 1991, the bastard terrorist attacks would have put the end to PanAm... That... and the increase in fuel prices...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
sparkingwave
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:08 pm

All it would take would be for someone to buy United Airlines and the Pan Am trademark and slap that blue meatball over the UA "U" on the tail.

SparkingWave ~~~
Flights to the moon and all major space stations. At Pan Am, the sky is no longer the limit!
 
aal0616
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:55 pm

Interesting comment Sparkling Wave. Although Delta acquired Kennedy, Atlantic authorities and the shuttle, I've always considered United the successor carrier to Pan Am, for many reasons. First, the dedicated and classy people of the Pacific Division, its very considerable assets and history, for $750 million, an unbelievable bargain; the marquee flagship authority to London Heathrow, and, last but not least, the Latin American Division based in Miami, at auction, which Delta (unwisely) did not take along with New York. With all its financial problems, associated with the cyclical rise and fall of North Atlantic revenues, the local union stuff, the (shh!) "mob" and others in New York raking money off the company (a.k.a, outright theft) and unwise, come and go Acker domestic route whims a la Braniff following deregulation, thrashing the National folks and culture, etc. etc., the "real deal" is:

The Pacific and Latin America always made money and were the soul of the company. Acker sold San Francisco, Los Angeles, Honolulu and Tokyo; cut off Pan Am's arms and legs, and all of it eventually saved United, actually; later, Miami, which for Pan Am (less National but also National solo) always made money on its own (given high Latin yields), was ironically ignored by Delta when they could have had a deal for it (blinked when challenged by American grabbing Eastern's carcass?), but then was smartly grabbed by United but then abandoned due mostly to the bankruptcy in retrospect. So many threads of history.

All perhaps inevitable. Rather than wish Pan Am back, which is certainly beyond belief unless, yes, United, the route-map successor, changes its name and restores many services, I imagine the sale of New York; possibly Acker's idea of building up Dulles to escape the Kennedy black hole (which he tried to start doing half-heartedly before being let go, and Steve Wolf then did), but most importantly, what about the fantasy of:

Pan Am kept the Pacific and Latin America and sold the Atlantic except London?

I know. Fantasy. Almost like calling the current little 727-thing Pan Am.

Tragic.
 
pwm2txlhopper
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:00 pm

Quoting Clippern7471sp (Thread starter):
s a former pan am frequent flyer who flew many american routes on our favorite clippers now past and gone would any one out there or business person consider restarting pana am and bring her out of the moth balls again. It can be done to see the former queen of the skies and the pioneers of aviation who broke records flying around the world and became the first airline to bring the jet age error into the future with 707 jets 747-121 jumbo jets and the first airline to order the baby jumbo jet known as the 747sp speacail preformance jet. we dearly miss her and would like to see pan am re appear in her former decals and flying newer 747 aircraft around the world. what do you all think. Can it be done or not?

As already mentioned, Pan Am is still around even though it's not the original, and is far from it.



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jetdeltamsy
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:15 pm

Quoting AAL0616 (Reply 9):
Acker

He killed Pan Am. He left a trail of bankrupt carriers...Braniff, BWIA, Pan Am and FlyI.

He should have been banned from the business like Lorenzo.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
newkai
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:25 pm

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 10):
Pan Am is still around even though it's not the original, and is far from it.

Apparently not too far from it... Still flying the 727!  Smile
 
AwysBSB
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:49 am

A great move I see for Pan Am is become focused in Y class service and follow a similar strategy Legend Airlines used to follow with its 56-seat jets.
 
swissy
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:42 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 11):
He killed Pan Am. He left a trail of bankrupt carriers...Braniff, BWIA, Pan Am and FlyI.

Acker was one of them (head guy) the whole u. mgt team was lousy, hell they sold everything which made money and kept the crap............

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 11):
He should have been banned from the business like Lorenzo.

Agree 100% and I wish they could be held personal accountable for their action......... and put these guys in jail................

Bringing back PA to somewhat what they were would require tremendous amount of money....... and I am sure the 380, T7, 787 & 350 would look awesome in the PA colors............

Cheers,
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:51 pm

Sorry, but how can anything call itself Pan Am? This business of buying and selling names only cheapens the legacy of what once was. For many of us Pan Am was the 747, Pan Am was JFK, Pan Am was LHR, Pan Am was San Francisco, Pan Am was elegance.. The same as for many of us.. TWA was the 747, TWA was the L1011, TWA was JFK, TWA was STL, TWA was Rome, TWA was a recognized leader.. Now we all are hear talking about a name that someone purchased to use on a lowly airline that flys cheap gamblers from A to B, and overall only tarnishes what we once loved about a great and wonderful airline.

As far as Pan Am goes, there is a number of ex Pan Am In-Flight Management and Crew Members working for EOS(Hector Adler of note), Delta, and United Airlines.
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
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chrisnh
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:54 pm

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 8):
All it would take would be for someone to buy United Airlines and the Pan Am trademark and slap that blue meatball over the UA "U" on the tail.

That's not far from what Pan Am III did. They purchased several United 727-200s and flew them up to Portsmouth, New Hampshire and repainted the 'U's' with blue meatballs.

As a New Hampshire resident, I am tremendously embarrassed that this current incarnation of Pan Am has anything to do with New Hampshire. But Guilford Transportation is--in my opinion, so as not to run the risk of defamation--the sleaziest outfit going. That, of course, is a function of the people. But they purchased the Pan Am logo and some other assets and ran roughshod all over it, leaving unpaid bills and angry airport operators in their wake. Now you know why Pan Am III barely stays long enough at any one airport, and why they fly to no-name airports in the first place. A charade, an embarrassment, a folly, a crime that Guilford has anything to do with Pan Am. They can't even run their railroad operations well, never mind an airline.

Chris in NH
 
aal0616
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:00 pm

Chris NH is absolutely right about the current Pan Am III owners, or how they are viewed by virtually everyone in the original Pan Am community and anyone who has come in contact with them or worked with them.

It is very sad and strange, and given the issues surrounding them, it would not be surprising to see legal actions regarding several serious possible charges become public in the near future.

Personally, seeing the Pan Am logo on railroad rolling stock is particularly galling, let alone the sleazy operating certificate shenanigans.
 
georgiabill
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:47 pm

Ditto AAL0616. It's sad to see freight cars with Pan Am's logo on them. Yesterday I saw one passing through Durham N.H. northbound. All I can say the owners of this once proud name and logo have certainly tarnished the image.
 
Matt D
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:00 pm

Ask yourselves this:

How many of you would like to see Pan Am return so thatr you can support and experience all the glamor and prestige of a lost age?

And how many of you simply want to take pictures of a Pan Am 777?

Think about it.
 
stirling
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:48 am

Might as well wish for the return of black & white television....

PanAm is dead. NOTHING will bring it back.
Delete this User
 
AwysBSB
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:51 am

I do not understand why anyone miss United, American and Delta that existed during 70`s.
Why Pan Am and TWA have to be the missed ones?
It seems Pan Am and TWA are fated to be images of the past.
I think we should start to imagine how would be those two airlines, if they had not ceased operations and have been progressing in the same way of British, United or JAL.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:04 am

Quoting AAL0616 (Reply 17):
Personally, seeing the Pan Am logo on railroad rolling stock is particularly galling, let alone the sleazy operating certificate shenanigans.

VERY true! An excellent point. Indeed, 'rolling stock' should be changed to 'laughing stock.'

Chris in NH
 
WesternA318
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:57 am

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 11):
He killed Pan Am. He left a trail of bankrupt carriers...Braniff, BWIA, Pan Am and FlyI.

Pan Am was rapidly sliding towards failure ever since Juan Trippe bought the 747's. PA ddt need THAT manyof them (I believe 25 was the original order?). That put PA in a HUGE financial black hole. Najeeb Halaby, Ed Acker and everone else running PA was so mesmerized by the history and grandeur of what WAS, that they couldnt see ahead. Much like Braniff, and other airlines.

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 15):
The same as for many of us.. TWA was the 747, TWA was the L1011, TWA was JFK, TWA was STL, TWA was Rome, TWA was a recognized leader..

TWA was ATH as well...and in my mind...SLC...read back to their early history and find out what i mean.  bigthumbsup 
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:54 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 15):
TWA was the 747, TWA was the L1011, TWA was JFK, TWA was STL, TWA was Rome, TWA was a recognized leader..

Where do you come up with this stuff?


TWA was ALWAYS #2 to Pan Am. TWA had several "firsts" in its corporate history. But nothing like Pan Am. Pan Am created the industry.

TWA "was the 747"? Hardly. TWA "was the L1011?" What???? TWA "was St Louis"? Big deal, so was Ozark.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
Pulkovokiwi
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:58 pm

Juan's baby had its day in the sun and now its dead-move on.
I thought I was wrong but I was only joking!
 
WesternA318
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:10 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 24):
TWA "was the L1011?" What????

It, along with Eastern launched the L-1011.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 24):
TWA "was St Louis"? Big deal, so was Ozark.

and we ended up buying Ozark, whats your point?
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
QF108
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:28 pm

Quoting PWM2TXLHopper (Reply 10):
As already mentioned, Pan Am is still around even though it's not the original, and is far from it.

Just out of curiosity does this Pan Am use the callsign 'Clipper' ?
Blessed are the Cheesemakers !
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:59 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 24):
Where do you come up with this stuff?


TWA was ALWAYS #2 to Pan Am. TWA had several "firsts" in its corporate history. But nothing like Pan Am. Pan Am created the industry.

To many people their first trip on a 747 was TWA...

To many people TWA was better than Pan Am...

So the jist of what you are saying is that TWA was???

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 24):
TWA "was the 747"? Hardly. TWA "was the L1011?" What???? TWA "was St Louis"? Big deal, so was Ozark

Typical response for a Delta fan...

P.S. Delta will never fit in the shoes of Pan Am!  wink 
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
N231YE
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:36 pm

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 1):
Part of what killed Pan Am (I was there; I was part of the Delta acquisition of the North Atlantic Division) was the inability of the culture to change. Pan Am was VERY old-school at a time when revolutionary ideas about our business were being implemented all around us.

Correct...From what I was told by an economics teacher while I was in High School, Pan Am mainly died after deregulation. Unlike the other legacy carriers, Pan Am (along with Eastern) did not have a solid plan to make a profit without the Civil Aeronautics Board (CAB) to artificially set prices and create artificial profits. Thus it never made a profit in the 80's, and finally ceased operations after 1991.

Quoting Jetdeltamsy (Reply 1):
I would guess that what you "miss" so much is the glitz and glamour of the past. That, i'm afraid, is gone forever.

My mother was a flight attendent (then "stewardess") for United back in those glamorous days. According to her, United first class included fine China, silverware, and all of the pampering one needed. My mother even described how her uniform had short mini-skirts, and stewardesses were the next best people to models. The glamourus days were back when only the rich or upper-middle class could afford to fly. But as mentioned, without the CAB to provide profits, and an ever changing society, the airlines had to fend for themselves in ever-toughening competition. Today, flying has become affordable to many people, to the point that the focus these days, including United-which managed to survive, is for cheaper fares, not glamour.

Also should be noted, that in the 60's, jet-powered airliners were viewed alongside the Apollo missions as high tech and futuristic. Unfortunately, people take jet aircraft for granted today.
 
aviateur
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RE: PAN Am The Pioneer's Will Restart Or Not?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:02 am

This is maybe the most bizarre thread I've ever encountered on this site. Can Pan Am be revived? That's like asking if the Brontosaurus can (or should) be resurrected to walk the earth. I suspect this topic was started as something of a joke, but many folks above haven taken it all too seriously.

- PS
Patrick Smith is an airline pilot, air travel columnist and author