CV990
Topic Author
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Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:23 pm

Hi!

I was quite impressed to see how AVIANCA is doing so great, very buzzy, those planes never stop!!! But I was just thinking about their future. They just started to receive the Fokker F100, I think this is an excelent airplane that served so well with TAM in the past and it's an ideal plane for short to medium routes, look also to Portugalia that started their network connecting LIS to OPO and FAO, they still use their Fokkers and the plane has been very, very popular here! But I look to planes like the MD80/757 and 767 and they are starting to show their age, I don't know how old most of AV planes are, but at least the two I flew, 757 EI-CEY and MD83 EI-CDY are around 14 years old. Looking closely to the past and the strong ties AVIANCA have with Boeing I think AVIANCA could think about replacing their 3 models with a mix of 737NG and the 787 maybe. The 737-700 and 800/900 could replace well the MD80 and the 757, and the 767 maybe with the smaller 787. Airbus will also try to get some more clients in this continent, after Aerolineas Argentinas, LAN Chile and TAM, so in the Airbus case the A319/A320/A321 could well match the planes involved and for longer hauls maybe the A330-200!
This is just a simple exercise, maybe our colombian friends have something "more hot" to pump in!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
NYC777
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:40 pm

I think they're actively looking at the 787 as a 767 replacement.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
777jaah
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:02 pm

They actually are looking for both A anb B proposal for fleet renewal. A350 & 787 for med-long haul and A320 & 737NG for short-med routes. I know someone from their financial dept and he said there's a dedicated group of people analyzing both proposals and financing viability of either one (leasing the ac is obviously the preferred choice), and a decission should come by the end of october or even sooner.

Quoting CV990 (Thread starter):
those planes never stop

This is one thing that AVs new owner, Mr efromovihc, really has put into the company, airplanes make money in the air, not in the tarmac, and now you can see more red eyes in AVs schedules to maximize the potentials of the fleet. Besides, the company has progressively expanded and reinforce their local and intl routes (BCN, LAX just to mention a couple), and it's now looking into recovering european routes that were dropped in their bad days (CDG, LHR).

AVs numbers seem to be going pretty good, and pax are responding pretty well to changes in their ac and their much improved overall service.

Quoting CV990 (Thread starter):
Looking closely to the past and the strong ties AVIANCA have with Boeing

Not only it seems to be the most "logical" way to go, but I guess many of us would love to see the 787 in that beautiful red and white livery, specially if they put the "Colombia es pasion" logo.


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JAAH
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
RCS763AV
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:04 pm

Avianca´s owner Mr. German Efromovich and CEO Mr. Fabio Villegas have already said they will order before this year ends. But they have given no clue on which manufacturer they are leaning for.

I thnik it will be B but everyone thought SQ was gonna order 787s and they came out with the A350.
 
Summa767
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:11 am

On this topic, if you look at the news section of Avianca on Wikipedia (with its limited reliability), it states that in an interview Mr Efromovich expressed his wish to incorporate the 777 for the busy Xmas/new year season on flights to JFK, MAD and LAX (presumibly as a wet lease -and Delta and Varig a/c are mentioned), and that if the operational results are positive, AV would seek to buy 5 777LR for next year!

Wishful thinking?
 
RICARIZA
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting CV990 (Thread starter):
Looking closely to the past and the strong ties AVIANCA have with Boeing I think AVIANCA could think about replacing their 3 models with a mix of 737NG and the 787 maybe

I agree, AV's has been a Boeing loyal customer, but Efromovich is a business person not attached to B or A, so the best financial / economical proposal will win, not influenced with other external factors.

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 3):
have already said they will order before this year ends. But they have given no clue on which manufacturer they are leaning for. quote] Yep.. no clue yet!

[quote=RCS763AV,reply=3]I thnik it will be B but everyone thought SQ was gonna order 787s and they came out with the A350.

My thoughts exactly!
I miss ACES, I am proud of AVIANCA & I am loyal to AMERICAN
 
Summa767
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:03 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 3):
I thnik it will be B but everyone thought SQ was gonna order 787s and they came out with the A350.

Now

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 2):
I know someone from their financial dept and he said there's a dedicated group of people analyzing both proposals and financing viability of either one

I guess that now they'll be re-evaluating, after the saga of the A350. Now they'll have to go back to analyse the new A350 "Extra Wide Cabin", its spec, the delay in production and price tag.

I think that AV wants the new planes sooner rather than later (I mean, 2010 rather than 2012), so the dreamliner would have the upper hand.

As for the short haul, these might start getting replaced in a couple of years with the 737NG or the A320 family. Again, because of range, Boeing would have the upper hand.

I personally like the wider cabin of the A319/A320, but the versatility of the 73G/738 would go better for AV, in my opinion.
 
777jaah
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:33 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 6):
I think that AV wants the new planes sooner rather than later

In that case why bother to even consider 777LR, as you mentioned above. AFAIK, slots for the LR aren't available before 2008 (of course I might be wrong). If Mr Efromovich decides to "test-drive" RGs 777 for the winter season, I guess he would prefer to keep a few birds (again, if he can find some in the market) than buying them, knowing he's in process for complete fleet renovation. On a personal side, I would really love to have some air ime in a AV 777, so SUMMA, I do wish, and real hard........lol

Quoting RICARIZA (Reply 5):
Efromovich is a business person not attached to B or A,

Aree 100%. On the other hand, just the idea of him considering a "test-drive" of some 777s, might give you an idea of what to expect from him and what he's thinking for AV in 5 years from now. If he was giving a better chance to the A350 instead of hte 787, why not giving some A340s, which I'm pretty confident you can find plenty of around the world. My bet is he really likes Boeing products, and for a fleet the size of AV, commonality is very important, I'm sure he'll use his experience as a businessman to get a good deal from both A and B, but he'll keep AV loyal to the Seattle boys.

Just my two cents.  twocents 

Cheers,


JAAH
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
Summa767
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:56 am

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 7):
In that case why bother to even consider 777LR, as you mentioned above. AFAIK, slots for the LR aren't available before 2008 (of course I might be wrong).

Well, One wonders what juggling Efro has in mind.. 777s might just fill the gap, or complement future orders. After all, any spare 757/767s could well find room in other of Synergy airlines. Vip is thinking big and has applied for routes to the US since Ecuador was upgraded by the FAA.

Similarly, OceanAir itself is probably having ambitions of its own as Varig future is looking grim.

It so happens that 5 is the number of 777LR that Delta has agreed to take from Boeing. Could they be used by AV whilst DL finances improve? and DL has been mentioned by him according by Wikipedia.

This is a conjecture, I realise. I get all excited by it, but let us see what will be the reality. Just a matter of weeks before we know, or have a good incling.
 
NYC777
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:24 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 3):
thnik it will be B but everyone thought SQ was gonna order 787s and they came out with the A350.

Uh they did order the 787 as well as the A350.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
777jaah
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:28 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 8):
It so happens that 5 is the number of 777LR that Delta has agreed to take from Boeing. Could they be used by AV whilst DL finances improve?

In that case, AV would have a leased- brand new ac for at least a couple of years. As you pointed out, numbers of DLs ac match with what Mr E said. But of course, how sweet for AV would be to replace a few 767s (to VIP as you said) for brand new 777s (Againg, crossing my fingers as hard as I can, check my screen name, you'll see why).  Wink Try to think yourself sitting in 2A for your flight LHR-BOG inside the powerful and enjoying the AVOD, with AV!! (I'm becoming obsessed with the idea, I know Big grin)

There's an article on a colombian magazine "Poder" in which AVs plane order was being analyzed, and supposedly many political factors were involved. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to get a hold of the complete article, I might have t run to a store and buy it, and if good enough, scan it and post for all you guys.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 8):
Varig future is looking grim

I think the word was used two months ago. Now you can use the expression JODIDA, and Mr E is sure like a hungry tiger trying as hard as he can to get a hold of a few of it's routes. In a way, that's why he got some F100s for OceanAir, right?


Cheers,

JAAH
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
EddieDude
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:35 am

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
I think they're actively looking at the 787 as a 767 replacement.

Many people speculated that AV would become the first Latin American carrier to order a 787. AM has now beat AV to it, but I guess the 787 remains a very likely possibility for AV.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 2):
They actually are looking for both A anb B proposal for fleet renewal. A350 & 787 for med-long haul and A320 & 737NG for short-med routes.

There was a thread many months ago about AV's future fleet and the majority of the participants believed that Boeing held the upper hand. In any case, I think the widebody and the single-aisle proposals need to be evaluated separately. As much as I'd love to see AV order some A318s, A319s and A320s, many a.netters believe AV is in the end going to go for the 737NG... who knows? As for the widebody, the A350XWB could be a very good choice, but the decision will probably depend on AV's timing needs and the discounts it gets from one or the other maker.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 4):
Mr Efromovich expressed his wish to incorporate the 777 for the busy Xmas/new year season on flights to JFK, MAD and LAX (presumibly as a wet lease -and Delta and Varig a/c are mentioned), and that if the operational results are positive, AV would seek to buy 5 777LR for next year!

I did not know! How ambitious! It seems to me that wetleasing a few 777s could give AV a good opportunity to see if they can fill them and how they operate both technically and financially speaking. However, I think you mean the -200ER because AV has little or no use for the -200LR.

[Edited 2006-07-26 19:54:35]
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
Summa767
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:44 am

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 11):
However, I think you mean the -200ER because AV has little or no use for the -200LR.

Let us not get too excited though! I was just quoting wikipedia! It does state 777LR there. I did wonder whether it made sense or not. Don't really know if the extra range is any good. In AV's case if would only make sense if the weight restrictions out of BOG to Europe are overcome by it, rather than for ultra long routes.
 
CV990
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:27 am

Hi!

First of all I think the 777 maybe it's too big for AV??? I think the 787 would be a great option and with Airbus the A330-200! The other things that is quite curious is the fact that some of AV planes are leased, so maybe a good deal with ILFC or other leasing company would give generous proposals to AV.
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
A388
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:43 am

I also think the leasing companies offers will also play a role here if AV wants to lease these new aircraft. So far the 787 has been ordered by some leasing companies but yet no A350(XWB). Other than this, the offers from both A and B obviously will be deciding if AV decides to buy the aircraft directly. In this case, the order for shorthaul and longhaul can go either ways. Airbus can offer the A320 family and the A350XWB with the A332 as an interim solution while Boeing can offer the 737NG with the B787/777 with more 763s as an interim solutions. Who knows what is going to happen, in either way, I think both the Airbus aircraft as well as the Boeing aircraft will look very nice in the AV red colors Big grin

A388
 
planeguy
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:54 pm

Ok, I know I'm going a little off topic here but can anyone tell me how AV's new routes to LAX and BCN are performing? And any guess as to which new European gateways they're considering?
 
FCKC
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:22 pm

PLANEGUY

As mentionned above , they plan LHR and CDG in Europe.
 
CV990
Topic Author
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:02 pm

Hi!

Did AV flew in the past to UK? I had that idea! My feeling is that AV needs to be strong in the markets where they are already established. For example someone in Colombia told me that Spain and Italy are good markets for tourism, I would say that maybe a flight to Italy would help, and maybe BCN would be a nice shot too. For example the only thing that "forced" me to fly via USA was tne fact that the flights from MAD with IB were all packed for months! Some german friends that were in Colombia managed to fly from Germany to Colombia via MAD, so with the alliances we have, I think anyplace from Europe can connect in MAD with IB or AV. I agree with A388 concerning fleet renewall, maybe with Boeing things can be a bit more long, looks that slots for new 787's will take the airplane to be delivered to AV maybe 2012 or 2013, that's quite long I think and AV will need new airplanes before that! With Airbus and the latest strategy of offering A330-200's and then swap them for A350's could actually be a nice compromise of Airbus and AV! AV could a better long-haul jet for the next 10 years with the A330-200 than with the 767 and then receive the A350! This is just a mere exercise!!!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
Summa767
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:51 pm

Quoting CV990 (Reply 17):
Did AV flew in the past to UK?

It did! But a recession in Colombia, a devalueing of the peso, a bad period in the country's security and to top it all sep 11 with 450% increase in insurance premiums made an impact on AV, making haemorrage money, cut routes and eventually sending it to Ch11.
It is good numbers that travellers both domestic and international are surging and that AV is making money.

Quoting CV990 (Reply 17):
AV could a better long-haul jet for the next 10 years with the A330-200 than with the 767 and then receive the A350! This is just a mere exercise!!!

The problem with the A330 is that it has a limited range, so it would be penalised in weight out of BOG for European routes. And cargo is of great importance on this station. Air Madrid uses the A330, but the compulsory CTG stop on its way to MAD overcomes this issue.

The 762 on the other hand has an good range for AV's needs. It only carrieds 175 pax though (when IB carries 350 on the A346s that it uses most days to BOG!)

It might well be that the 772 (actually similar pax capacity as the A330 ) will fit in well for some routes and complement its 757/767s, whilst A350 or 787s are delivered.

[Edited 2006-07-27 13:59:11]
 
CV990
Topic Author
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:01 pm

Hi Summa767!

Thanks for your excelent post. I had in my mind that AV used the 767-300 on MAD route, well with your numbers and information AV is getting hard times to compete with IB right??? Then I would agree with you, the 777 would be a great choise for AV! Then by your post the 763 are used on USA routes? regarding AV making money now, I'm glad that is going on pretty well....so if we keep seeing AV getting money I'm sure soon AV will come out with a nice order for new airplanes!!! They deserve that but that will bring to an end of airplanes like the MD80!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
777jaah
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:04 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 18):
It might well be that the 772 (actually similar pax capacity as the A330 ) will fit in well for some routes and complement its 757/767s, whilst A350 or 787s are delivered.

I think that's what AV it's going to choose. As you said it, wishful thinking.....


Cheers


JAAH
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
Summa767
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:30 pm

Hello!

Quoting CV990 (Reply 19):
Thanks for your excelent post. I had in my mind that AV used the 767-300 on MAD route, well with your numbers and information AV is getting hard times to compete with IB right???



Indeed, 762 are used as a default on flights to Europe, whilst the 763s tend to serve MIA, JFK and CCS.
There are occasional changes of course. I myself flew to LHR on a AV 763 a few years ago.
Well, IB probably makes much more money on the BOG-MAD route than AV does. However, the numbers are still healthy for the latter.

It seems that there are enough passengers on that route as Air Comet has a 747 (for 400 pax) 3 x weekly and Air madrid has its A330s (for 300 pax) 3 x a week.

AV also seems to be having excellent results with the twice weekly MAD-CLO. I have yet to hear how BCN is performing.

Quoting 777jaah (Reply 20):
think that's what AV it's going to choose. As you said it, wishful thinking.....

We should soon hear more!

Regards from a sun kissed Oxford (for a change!)

Juan

[Edited 2006-07-27 15:38:34]
 
777jaah
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:04 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 21):
I have yet to hear how BCN is performing.

I tried to book a flight on that route for novemebr, and it was pretty hard to get the dates i was looking for (mid november), in fact, all it was left was in J and very expensive Y seats, which of course, I didn't took. Hopefully they're doing great this summer, but IIRC, 757MDE said he was on the inaugural flight and loads weren't as good as expected. IOM, BCN is a route that will mature pretty fast for AV, and results sure will be great by winter.

Cheers


JAAH
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
Southamerica
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 12):
Let us not get too excited though! I was just quoting wikipedia! It does state 777LR there. I did wonder whether it made sense or not.

As you mentioned, Wikipedia is pretty unreliable when it comes to aviation. Many false news are posted there; according to them, CO was supposed to lunch EWR-MDE this July, of course, it never happened.  Yeah sure

About the 772LR, one has to consider also price. Would it fit well into the company's economics?

I believe Avianca would ideally go for a bigger order of 787 that could fly throughout their whole network, instead of breaking the order between 787s and 772s.

As much as I'd like to see them operating 777s, Avianca would only realistically need 2 of them, maybe 3. The 772 would come in handy for MAD and JFK, and full stop there. Other dense routes like BOG-MIA or BOG-CCS are much shorter and thus better served with medium-sized aircraft and higher frequencies.

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 21):
It seems that there are enough passengers on that route as Air Comet has a 747 (for 400 pax) 3 x weekly and Air madrid has its A330s (for 300 pax) 3 x a week.

Air Madrid only flies MAD-BOG twice a week. The third weekly flight orginates in BCN.

Anyway, it is clear that there are more than enough passengers to send all those planes to Europe fully-loaded. You actually get surprised to see that IB and AF are the only airlines that are able to register 80% of load-factors to Colombia on low-season, which goes to show how limited demand is between Colombia and Europe.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
Summa767
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 23):
Air Madrid only flies MAD-BOG twice a week. The third weekly flight orginates in BCN.

They have been flying MAD-BOG 3 x weekly for about a month, and are scheduled to continue doing so till the 9th September. In addition to the Thursday flight from BCN. They would like this to be a permanent arrangement, but a change in thebilateral is required. They are lobbying for this. Aerocivil has signalled that is ready for an open skies with Spain. AV (and maybe P5) might object though..

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 23):
believe Avianca would ideally go for a bigger order of 787 that could fly throughout their whole network, instead of breaking the order between 787s and 772s.

Totally agree on that.787 seems to have the right size and range for AV's needs. Problem is that at the rate of expansion, and taking into account the aspirations of Vipsa and OceanAir, more aircraft will be required.
It might not harm AV to test the 777 as a wet lease, and decide whether it could justify having a couple -as you say 2 would cover MAD and JFK, perhaps EZE some days- or whether to go for some more 757/767s for 5/6 yrs whilst the new deliveries materialise.
 
CV990
Topic Author
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:49 am

Hi!

Thanks Summa767 for your information! Well taking in mind that 777jah tried to book a flight and it looked quite hard, I seriously believe that AV, IB and any others need to increase their flights then......Air Comet flies with the 747 and Air Madrid with the A330, but the problem is that we, from outside Spain will have a serious hard time to get a eat on those flights, mainly because they are vacation packages, and unfortunetely in Portugal vacation packages are to....Brazil!!!! Very sad indeed!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
Southamerica
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:30 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 24):
They have been flying MAD-BOG 3 x weekly for about a month

You are right, though the additional flight doesn't appear in the schedules authorized by the Aerocivil. What legal figure did they use to get this extra weekly flight?

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 24):
as you say 2 would cover MAD and JFK, perhaps EZE some days

Keeping the current schedules, Avianca would require three aircraft to serve MAD and JFK daily. With two aircraft they would be able to serve JFK daily, and MAD alternating between 777 and 767, which would be nice in my opinion.

Theoretically, MAD and JFK can be served daily with only two aircraft, but it would be on a very tight rotation schedule that would leave little or no space for last-minute inconveniences, not to mention maintenance procedures.



SOUTHAMERICA
 
Summa767
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:45 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 26):
the additional flight doesn't appear in the schedules authorized by the Aerocivil. What legal figure did they use to get this extra weekly flight?

I can only imagine that it is a temporary right granted by Aerocivil. Perhaps pending the renegotiation of the bilateral treaty. Similarly, AV has been operating an extra weekly flight (AV16/17) during the summer season, and has done so before.

Quoting CV990 (Reply 25):
......Air Comet flies with the 747 and Air Madrid with the A330, but the problem is that we, from outside Spain will have a serious hard time to get a eat on those flights, mainly because they are vacation packages

You can actually buy seats for both airlines, even if not as part of a packages. But still, I would not do so with Air Madrid if I had to connect, unless I could afford to lose my connecting flight, buy another one and be prepared to spend a night in a hotel at my expense! I say this because of their poor time keeping! Actually they will start London soon with A319s.Other European routes have already started.

Better still would have to have direct flights to more places in Europe! Not just Spain and France! maybe even TAP be tempted to BOG, even if as an extra leg its CCS flights  Smile
 
clo1973
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:38 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 21):
AV also seems to be having excellent results with the twice weekly MAD-CLO. I have yet to hear how BCN is performing.

You are right, Cali - Madrid - Cali had a load of 80% in May......and that figure has been very much the same all year round...
 
Arcano
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:41 am

Quoting CV990 (Thread starter):
They just started to receive the Fokker F100, I think this is an excelent airplane that served so well with TAM

F100 are probably the worst and more uncomfortable aircraft I ever flew. If you don't have markets lage enough for 318/737s, why don't consider a Bae146 or an embraer instead?

Quoting CV990 (Thread starter):
767 maybe with the smaller 787

Is AV in the mood of buying brand new aircraft? how long has been since AV bought its last brand new aircraft?
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
Southamerica
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:55 am

Quoting Clo1973 (Reply 28):
You are right, Cali - Madrid - Cali had a load of 80% in May

I hope you're not forgetting the route is Bogota-Cali-Madrid, as the 80% of load-factor includes passengers coming from Bogota who are simply in-transit in Cali.

See the caption of the following picture:


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Photo © Juan Pablo Puccini





SOUTHAMERICA
 
Summa767
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Fri Jul 28, 2006 4:01 pm

Quoting Arcano (Reply 29):
F100 are probably the worst and more uncomfortable aircraft I ever flew. If you don't have markets lage enough for 318/737s, why don't consider a Bae146 or an embraer instead?

Why are the F100s so bad?
Well, AV is stuck with them now! It has them configured with 97 seats, so the legroom should not be reasonable, and overall comfort might thus be improved.

AV (well, its subsiduady SAM) had a brand new fleet of 10 RJ100s a few years ago. I liked flying on the planes, but they proved not to fit well in the tropics. They turned out to be immensely unreliable, with a few engine failures happening. Part of the problem was some sort of fungus that grew in their fuel tanks - and that, it seems, could not be effectively remedied. They went back.

Embraer may well be an option for the future. But the immediate concern is ordering A320s/737NGs and A350/787, to replace -in a few years- MD83s, 757 and 767s.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 29):
Is AV in the mood of buying brand new aircraft? how long has been since AV bought its last brand new aircraft?

The MD83s were bough (or rather leased) brand new in the early 90s, though some second hand ones have been addd sinnce the original order. F50s were leased brand new too at about the same time, and now AV actually owns them outright.
There were also some new 767s then And the RJ100s that I mentioned above in the middle 90s.

[Edited 2006-07-28 09:21:28]
 
CV990
Topic Author
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:31 pm

Hi!

Well Arcano, I can't argue with you regarding the FokkerF100!!!! I had such a great experience flying a TAM one from Curitiba to Asuncion via Foz de Iguaçu/Ciudad Del Este so we are in the oposite side! You don't like it....I like it! But let me tell you one thing, Portugalia, the first private airline that arrived in early 90's to start flights from LIS has been flying with the F100 for a good number of years and they simply love the plane, and the people they flew also enjoy a lot the plane too!!! May you could share with us why you say that about the Fokker F100 and your particular reasons! But regarding your options, the Ba 146 or the Embraer, well I flew both, the Ba146 is no way better than the Fokker F100, the Ba146 is a "whale" compared with the nerve and dynamism of the Fokker, and lastely I don't think a 4 engine short/medium haul jet give a better economy to a country like Colombia! Regarding the EMB, what model are you talking? I flew the ERJ145 and that plane simply doesn't fit in AV network...too small, and for that the Fokker F50 is much better economically! If you talking about the EMB170, well that could be an answer, but still the Fokker for me is a much more flexible airplane than the EMB....! Well this is just an opinion based on my experience flying these planes, I flew Fokker F100 with TAM, the Ba 146 with SWISS and the ERJ145 with USAIr EXpress, all my flights with these models were more than 2 hours, so I had time to feel the confort, and the performance of the planes!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
FCKC
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:00 pm

Probably , the best choice for AV , for European routes is the 747 Combi , like they used to send to MAD , CDG , FRA some years ago.
At that time AV was very happy with this Combi.
Will it be still economical to operate in the 21st Century ?
Why not second hand 747-400s , like AR did ?
 
EddieDude
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:49 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 31):
AV (well, its subsiduady SAM) had a brand new fleet of 10 RJ100s a few years ago. I liked flying on the planes, but they proved not to fit well in the tropics. They turned out to be immensely unreliable, with a few engine failures happening. Part of the problem was some sort of fungus that grew in their fuel tanks - and that, it seems, could not be effectively remedied.

One would have thought that the quad regional jets were optimal for high temperature operations. Too bad! I hope the new Yucatan start-up KBAir will not suffer the same problems with their BAe146's.
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RICARIZA
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:12 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 31):
AV (well, its subsiduady SAM) had a brand new fleet of 10 RJ100s a few years ago. I liked flying on the planes, but they proved not to fit well in the tropics. They turned out to be immensely unreliable, with a few engine failures happening. Part of the problem was some sort of fungus that grew in their fuel tanks - and that, it seems, could not be effectively remedied. They went back.

I really liked flying those "Jumbolinos".. and love its high wing design.. too bad we don't see them anymore in Colombia with those nice MM colors..


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Arcano
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:17 am

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 31):
Why are the F100s so bad?



Quoting CV990 (Reply 32):
ell Arcano, I can't argue with you regarding the FokkerF100!!!! I had such a great experience flying a TAM

Of course, a matter of taste can't be proved... I actually flew one on TAM few weeks ago and it was awful, the pressure, the size, the pitch, etc...

Quoting Summa767 (Reply 31):
AV (well, its subsiduady SAM) had a brand new fleet of 10 RJ100s a few years ago

Still, I've read many, many times in this forum huge fantastic "possible future fleet" for Avianca, but I just look at the facts: AV broke recently, it has a very unimpressive widebody fleet of second hand 767s (mostly 762s). They are focused now in their MD80s and 757s, offering an actual very good deal and frequencies to USA and regional countries.

But for sure, to see 787s, 777s, 340s, 350s or 330s just don't fit to me. I think AV, as AR, just can't afford brand new aircraft or newer models.

AV can get more second hand 763s or even 340s (although I'm not sure about their performance in BOG). Those alternatives would be a much logical financial-market solution than to dream of 787s. It just don't match the actual history of AV. And even considering the more than 40 millions of inhabitants of Colombia...

When was the last time that AV brought a brand nbew widebody?

Just a thought )(
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
Southamerica
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:46 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 36):
Still, I've read many, many times in this forum huge fantastic "possible future fleet" for Avianca

Huge fantastic fleet? The only thing we've discussed is what the company itself has publicly expressed: 73G/A32X for MD-83 replacement, and 787/A350 for 767 replacement. Like it or not, it's happening.

Anything beyond that is pure biased speculation, and I believe most of us are in full capacity of seeing that 777s or anything similar is unlikely to happen.

Avianca is in hands of an entirely different administration now. The whole bankrupcy issue is a matter of the past, which probably wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been triggered by the post-9/11 conditions in the first place. Being fair, then you should bare in mind that Avianca's history also includes more than 80 years of continued successful service, which I hope you are not forgetting.



SOUTHAMERICA

[Edited 2006-07-29 21:47:10]
 
Arcano
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:53 am

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 37):
Like it or not, it's happening.

Why tanking this so personal? How, according to you, I offended the "80 successful years"?
It's not a matter of like or not, its a matter of economics. I don't think they have money for 777s or 787s when they can't even pass 10 used 767s. That's all. Andwer that, when was the last time AV was in the shape of buying brand new widebodies? See? I'm only analysing, not making judgements.

Can I be wrong? Of course, there's no need for you to be so hurt by my opinions
in order: 721,146,732,763,722,343,733,320,772,319,752,321,88,83,744,332,100,738, 333, 318, 77W, 78, 773, 380, 73G, 788, 789, 346
 
CV990
Topic Author
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:24 am

Hi!

Answering Arcano I would like to say the following, AV indeed haven't received any new airplanes recently ( maybe our colombian enthusiasts can give better details on that...) but I would like to stress that Colombia had a terrible political condition during maybe 10/15 years with internal wars, and it's better not forget that...it seriously reflects the economy, the investment and I'm sure at that time AV had to make a "time out" regrading any fleet replacements, and that is understandable in my point a view! But those bad times are over, Colombia is regenerating and their economy is growing, and with that growth we have seen some new models comming, like the Fokker F50/F100, of course they're not new airplanes, they have maybe 12/13 years old, but they are from a newer generation of airplanes with CRT's, compared with the US airplanes they have, and even we like it or not AV is making an effort to "catch some time", and for me that's a reason to praise....so why shouldn't AV look to the future for a later generation airplane??? I would also to enphasise that the past of AV is actually very bright and those guys did great over the years, just to let you know, in early 60's/70's and 80's AV fleet was one of the most modern in Latin America, they were the first airline to operate de 720B and they flew along side with RG that had the 707-400 and the Caravelle, AR had the DH Comet, AV was a 747 operator after only AR and well ahead RG for example, they operated one of the strongest network to Europe with flights to CDG, FRA, LHR/LGW, MAD, ARN, AMS.....better than them only RG!!! So if this was possible in the past, why shouldn't AV seek for a better future? I think there is a tremedous potential to AV when we take in mind their past, and if during years AV fleet renewal was a bluff I wouldn't think that in these next few years!
This is just my 2 cents!!!
regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
Summa767
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:39 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 36):
Still, I've read many, many times in this forum huge fantastic "possible future fleet" for Avianca, but I just look at the facts: AV broke recently, it has a very unimpressive widebody fleet of second hand 767s (mostly 762s). They are focused now in their MD80s and 757s

It *was* broke. After restructuring it has turned operational profits of over US$50m a year for the last 2 years. It is in a position to think bigger.

7 767s may no be impressive, but that it what it has required for its operations. The 7 757s compliment very well its north and south american operations.
You refer to the 762 as if they were inferior. For AV they are just the logical choice for European operations as it has a better range than the 763, and thus minimises payload weight restrictions out of BOG. As a passenger I prefer the more homely feel of the smaller 767.

MD83s and 757s will have to do for the next few years, but they will have to be replaced. Hence we *will* see an order for new aircraft within 3 months.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 36):
AV can get more second hand 763s or even 340s (although I'm not sure about their performance in BOG). Those alternatives would be a much logical financial-market solution than to dream of 787s. It just don't match the actual history of AV. And even considering the more than 40 millions of inhabitants of Colombia...

We may well see more 767s for the time being, but A340s do not fit AV well, as they need a versatile plane that is good for MIA (3 hrs) as MAD (10 hrs) and that is able to carry a lot of cargo. Also, A340s have become unpopular.

40+ million colombians, with up to 10% living abroad. A good position for a hub between south and north America, and good potential for tourism mean that national airlines can afford to plan for the surge in air traffic that we are starting to see and that has every reason to continue.

[Edited 2006-07-29 23:04:01]
 
tope98
Posts: 78
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:49 am

Quoting CV990 (Reply 39):
AV was a 747 operator after only AR and well ahead RG for example, they operated one of the strongest network to Europe with flights to CDG, FRA, LHR/LGW, MAD, ARN, AMS.....better than them only RG!!!

Do not forget about VA!... they were the first 747 Lat Am operators.... and their europe network was just impressing LIS, OPO, MAD, SCQ, CDG, LHR, FRA, MXP, FCO, ZRH, AMS, CPH.

Regarding Avianca, i think they will go Boeing... i think 787 make more sense to reemplace 767 and 757... and 737NG for MD-80. Im flying with them next month so i will take a look how they are doing lately, ´cause i havent flown on them for a couple of years and ive always have a very good impression.

Saludos,
 
CV990
Topic Author
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:35 am

Hi Tope98!

Yeah good old VA, great airline!!! I saw many of their airplanes in LIS during years, from DC-8 to DC-10's!!! That orange tail was very distinct!
Regarding AV, just flew with them 2 weeks ago....you're gonna love it...I enjoyed and it was just small flights!!!
Have a nice trip.
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
bogota
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:18 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 38):
Why tanking this so personal? How, according to you, I offended the "80 successful years"?
It's not a matter of like or not, its a matter of economics. I don't think they have money for 777s or 787s when they can't even pass 10 used 767s. That's all. Andwer that, when was the last time AV was in the shape of buying brand new widebodies? See? I'm only analysing, not making judgements.

Would you like to give us an inside view of the new owners of AV? Maybe something that we do not know? Because according to the new owners and their interview in revista PODER, they are almost ready to sign the deal for the new fleet which will cost around US 2.5 billion.

The last time AV had new planes was around 20 years ago when they bought most of their current fleet. The rest of the planes have just been recent additions to the fleet to keep up with demand while they ensure this new deal. As you probably are aware airlines have to queue up to ensure new planes and in the mean while they have to do what ever to keep their growth, specially if it is an airline that a few years ago was in Chapter 11 and had no orders in place.

If you maybe had more contact with Colombia you would actually realize all the change AV has undergone in the last year since the new ownership took over, which includes suddenly becoming extremely reliable and trustworthy, the amazing change in attitude by the staff and the physical renewal of interiors, uniforms, livery, airport counters and offices nationwide. They are in the middle of the revamp of their domestic Puente Aereo terminal costing several million dollars and which will be finished in 63 days (according the countdown billboard in the terminal) and their enormous pressure to ensure the new 650 million dollar new international terminal in BOG suits their needs as the important hub they are trying to build.
 
Southamerica
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:43 am

Quoting Arcano (Reply 38):
Why tanking this so personal? How, according to you, I offended the "80 successful years"?

You didn't offend anyone nor anything. I'm neither the founder, nor the owner, nor I work in the company, so relax.  Wink

You stated:
"I just look at the facts: AV broke recently, it has a very unimpressive widebody fleet of second hand 767s (mostly 762s)"


Those are not even facts to begin with. Avianca filled out of bankrupcy almost a year and a half ago, and since then has been under a wholely different administration with enough money to inject on the company and on new planes. Still, regardless of the above, they have been registering profits quarter after quarter.

Regarding the fleet, I have to join Summa767, they have what they need. The 763s are the perfect size for the BOG-MAD route, but they can't even make it accross the Atlantic nonstop from Bogota, hence they have to rely on the 762s.

Arcano, relax, they won't be ordering 50 787s, nobody has ever implied that, they'll probably get just around 10, which is what they need according to their international network.

The comment about the 80 successful years was intended to show that it is a fact, just as much as their bankrupcy 2 years ago is. Both of them show two different sides of Avianca's past, yet neither of them is worth anything now that the company has a different present.


SOUTHAMERICA
 
CV990
Topic Author
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:42 pm

Hi!

I should mediate what it looks to me like a "local conflict"!!! I think there's no point keep "shooting and shooting back" regarding AV. All of us that love aviation want to see AV comming out good like in the old days! I think all of us would like to see brand new airplanes in AV fleet, so let's look to a bright future to this nice airline, like I said I was quite impressed to see AV alive, and running nice, so for me seeing one day in this forum a new topic saying that AV is ordereing new airplanes will be certainly a great day!
Regards
CV990, the Maserati of the skies!
 
Summa767
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:59 pm

Quoting CV990 (Reply 45):
so for me seeing one day in this forum a new topic saying that AV is ordereing new airplanes will be certainly a great day!

I eagerly await for that moment too! But that it will come, I have no doubt!

But against doubts, the argument had to be assertive in order to dispell the company's ambitions as naive or ill founded and to illustrate how it has turned its fortunes around, and that it is ready to further unlock the potential for air travel in Colombia and latin America.
 
777jaah
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RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting Arcano (Reply 36):
but I just look at the facts: AV broke recently, it has a very unimpressive widebody fleet of second hand 767s (mostly 762s)

Sure that's a fact, but shows lack of knowledge of all the facts involving AVs inmediate past and plans for the future. Look at the whole picture, or at least, ask or read before making any statement, because making such statements based on thin air doesn't give you any credibility.

You can bet your house oon it, AV will order new planes, and it's going to be the right size for its needs, nothing blown out of proportion, trust me or read previous replies and threads, you'll learn a thing or two of Colombian aviation from many people who post here, and that's what I'm trying to do.

Quoting SOUTHAMERICA (Reply 44):
Quoting Arcano (Reply 38):
Why tanking this so personal? How, according to you, I offended the "80 successful years"?

You didn't offend anyone nor anything. I'm neither the founder, nor the owner, nor I work in the company, so relax.

Agree 100%. Post the facts, don't let the feelings take over your opnions. Great reply. Welcome to my RU list.


Cheers

JAAH
Next flights: AV BOG-ADZ-BOG, AV-UA BOG-IAD-ORD-IAD-BOG, BOG-FLL-BOG, LA BOG-MIA-BOG J
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3650
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:22 am

RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:40 am

Quoting CV990 (Reply 17):
for tourism, I would say that maybe a flight to Italy would help, and maybe BCN

They fly to BCN. Though a flight to Italy is not a bad idea.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 29):
Is AV in the mood of buying brand new aircraft? how long has been since AV bought its last brand new aircraft?

Long. But the company has stated 100 times that they are replacing their fleet, why is it so hard for you to understand that the other latin airlines can also buy new aircraft, not only LAN and TAM.

Quoting Arcano (Reply 36):
Still, I've read many, many times in this forum huge fantastic "possible future fleet" for Avianca, but I just look at the facts: AV broke recently, it has a very unimpressive widebody fleet of second hand 767s (mostly 762s). They are focused now in their MD80s and 757s, offering an actual very good deal and frequencies to USA and regional countries.

Its just a bunch of 737s and 787s to replace around 40 aircraft....
What does it matter that they have an "unimpressive" widebody fleet?

Quoting Arcano (Reply 38):
Why tanking this so personal?

Not personal, only not letting you hijack the thread.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6211
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: Future Fleet Of Avianca!

Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:01 am

Quoting RCS763AV (Reply 48):
why is it so hard for you to understand that the other latin airlines can also buy new aircraft, not only LAN and TAM.

Well, in reality Latin American carriers generally lease new airplanes rather than buy them. It is quite expensive to buy new aircraft and only a few airlines can afford it at this point in time. Leasing planes allows airlines to replace older frames more conveniently... take the example of AM who is replacing the Mad Dogs with 737NG's. While AM must pay more money each month per airplane, the fuel savings derived from operating a newer, more efficient plane offsets the higher rent.
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