RichardPrice
Topic Author
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Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:47 am

Quote:

Investigators examining what caused an Armenian airliner to crash with the loss of all 113 people on board have blamed pilot error.
...
"The human factor in bad weather played a role," Russian Transport Minister Igor Levitin said.
...
Tatyana Anodina, head of the inter-governmental committee that took part in the enquiry, said that during the descent the captain "did not ensure control of the plane as far as angle and altitude were concerned," according to Russia's Itar-Tass news agency.

Ms Anodina said that the co-pilot also failed to "ensure necessary control".
...
The investigators said that there had been no engine failure or fuel shortage.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5216210.stm

Pretty much what the discussion on here surmised then.
 
Morvious
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:11 am

Thats life..

Human errors will always be one problem at the aviation industry, but its so sad it happends also during critical stages..
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
 
bennett123
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:18 am

What percent is poor weather?.
 
leigh pilgrim
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:52 am

I believe that many pilots have glued to their heads, 'Time is money', any delay is costly for any airline, so unless it is absolutly necessary, my own view is that sometimes safety actions may be sometimes ignored unless absolutly critical.

Never mess with the weather
 
Falcon Flyer
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting Leigh pilgrim (Reply 3):
I believe that many pilots have glued to their heads, 'Time is money'

That's about as unfair a statement I've ever heard. I've been a corporate pilot for several years with a Fortune 500 company and I can assure you that corporate crews probably understand more than anyone the pressures of timely schedules for CEOs. Never once has the boss questioned my decision to delay a trip, cancel a trip or divert for weather if enroute. Be it corporate or airline it's ludicrous to suggest that a flight crew would make that kind of a decision or bow to that kind of pressure. That type of call is made strictly with safety in mind first, then financial consequences or inconvenience second.
My definition of cool ? Not trying so hard to be cool.
 
YYZYYT
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:14 am

Quoting Falcon flyer (Reply 4):
That's about as unfair a statement I've ever heard. I've been a corporate pilot for several years with a Fortune 500 company and I can assure you that corporate crews probably understand more than anyone the pressures of timely schedules for CEOs. Never once has the boss questioned my decision to delay a trip, cancel a trip or divert for weather if enroute. Be it corporate or airline it's ludicrous to suggest that a flight crew would make that kind of a decision or bow to that kind of pressure. That type of call is made strictly with safety in mind first, then financial consequences or inconvenience second.

Now, as I post this I expect that I may be flamed...

I am sure that most pilots would agree with you, and most would not take such chances.

But unfortunately this is not always the case. Below are three well known fatal crashes where operational pressure to fly / land, despite adverse weather, has been at least a contributing factor (as found by the official investigations, and not merely speculation). I am aure there are others, but I can't look for them no.w


Singapore 006, Taipei:
"The moderate time pressure to take off before the inbound typhoon closed in around CKS Airport, and the condition of taking off in a strong crosswind, low visibility, and slippery runway subtly influenced the flight crew's decision?making ability and the ability to maintain situational awareness. ..."

cite:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20001031-0&lang=en


AA 1460, Little Rock:
"The flight crew's failure to discontinue the approach when severe thunderstorms and their associated hazards to flight operations had moved into the airport area and the flight crew's failure to ensure that the spoilers had extended after touchdown. Contributing to the accident were the flight crew's (1) impaired performance resulting from fatigue and the situational stress associated with the intent to land under the circumstances, (2) continuation of the approach to a landing when the company's maximum crosswind component was exceeded, ..."

cite:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19990601-0&lang=en


AA 965, Cali:
"Contributing to the cause of the accident were:
1. The flight crew's ongoing efforts to expedite their approach and landing in order to avoid potential delays; ..."

cite:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19951220-1&lang=en
 
leigh pilgrim
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:42 am

Quoting Falcon flyer (Reply 4):
Quoting Leigh pilgrim (Reply 3):
I believe that many pilots have glued to their heads, 'Time is money'

That's about as unfair a statement I've ever heard. I've been a corporate pilot for several years with a Fortune 500 company and I can assure you that corporate crews probably understand more than anyone the pressures of timely schedules for CEOs. Never once has the boss questioned my decision to delay a trip, cancel a trip or divert for weather if enroute. Be it corporate or airline it's ludicrous to suggest that a flight crew would make that kind of a decision or bow to that kind of pressure. That type of call is made strictly with safety in mind first, then financial consequences or inconvenience second.

I only wish you wereright and I was wrong, however Im glad to see that you do take safety as number 1 (seriously, glad to hear that)

Also, look at the Air France A340 crash in Toronto, they could have diverted but chose to land in the most dangerous of conditions, again a heavy thunderstorm and look what happened.............
 
Falcon Flyer
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:11 am

Although I refuse to second guess a flight crew, particularly after an event, the examples listed are interesting.
With regard to Little Rock, the investigation and subsequent analysis could in fact suggest pressure to complete the flight when diverting or even returning to DFW would have had a far different outcome. I'll agree with that.
As far as Cali goes, one of the issues suggested unoffically by people in the training department at AA was the problem of "heads being down" (FMS) as opposed to "flying the plane".
As far as Toronto goes, it would appear that pilot technique came into play more than anything. The A340 was not the only aircraft to land within a relatively short time frame prior to the accident, though. IIRC, weather at the time of landing may have been gusty with storm activity in close proximity but was within the limitations of the aircraft and did not involve a microburst or something along those lines right at touchdown. Although operations often occur during inclement weather, the crew obviously had no reason to suspect that a normal landing would not occur.
My definition of cool ? Not trying so hard to be cool.
 
jamesbuk
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:21 am

Quoting Leigh pilgrim (Reply 3):
I believe that many pilots have glued to their heads, 'Time is money', any delay is costly for any airline, so unless it is absolutly necessary,

All through my flight training ive had it drilled into my head that "YOU are the captain of the aircraft, If YOUR not happy with whats happening dont go ahead with it"
IF you follow this you should in theory have a life at the end of it.

Rgds --James--
You cant have your cake and eat it... What the hells the point in having it then!!!
 
YYZYYT
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Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:41 am

RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:22 am

Quoting Leigh pilgrim (Reply 6):
Also, look at the Air France A340 crash in Toronto, they could have diverted but chose to land in the most dangerous of conditions, again a heavy thunderstorm and look what happened.............



Quoting Falcon flyer (Reply 7):
As far as Toronto goes, it would appear that pilot technique came into play more than anything.

When I considered my earlier post, I deliberately did not add Toronto even though I thought of it immeidately (I drive past the revaine where the 340 stopped frequently) - no cause or contributing factors have been found yet, and I did not want to speculate. Time and the TSB will tell.

As for the issue of operational pressure, I recall a discussion here several months ago about a Belgian pilot who was fired for refusing a direct order from his employer to fly an aircraft that he considered to be unsafe... the concensus here was that it took real guts to do that. I wonder what ever happened to him?
 
clo1973
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:15 am

I just flew from Cartagena to Cali (Colombia) in a MD83 about two weeks ago. Since taking off and for 35 minutes (and despite an altitude of 33000 ft) we flew right across a storm (dense clouds surrounding the plane and lighting). Turbulence was not that bad, but I have to confess I was a little tense waiting for moderate or severe turbulence.

Since I`m not a pilot, I was asking to myself what is the criteria that a crew follows in order to decide to fly in such weather conditions. I know the weather radar is of great help.....but....

I read this thread and I notice some pilots posted comments....maybe one of you can give me a clue on this subject.

Regards
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:31 am

Some main airports in 3rd world countries still use non-precision approaches, so when there is really bad weather and are inexperienced pilots things like this will happen. As far as the time and money issue, it is a valid problem. Southwest airlines completely changed the way pilots are trained and operate flights after the Burbank crash because they found that their old operation style of encouraging pilots to take short-cuts showed saftey concerns.
 
comorin
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:32 am

I didn't know that you could put a highly automated airliner like the A320 at risk for altitude, attitude and bearing - isn't it all pushbutton? Does this mean that the pilots hand flew the plane? Isn't it better to trust the avionics, especially in bad weather?

Grateful for any insight by pilots - thanks.
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:43 am

Quoting RichardPrice (Thread starter):
Tatyana Anodina, head of the inter-governmental committee that took part in the enquiry, said that during the descent the captain "did not ensure control of the plane as far as angle and altitude were concerned," according to Russia's Itar-Tass news agency.

I thought A320 has flight envelope/law to prevent this kind of dangerous maneuver from happening. I am confused. I though this is a big thing for A320.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:54 am

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 13):
I thought A320 has flight envelope/law to prevent this kind of dangerous maneuver from happening. I am confused. I though this is a big thing for A320.



Quoting Comorin (Reply 12):
or altitude, attitude and bearing - isn't it all pushbutton?

You guys think planes fly by themselves or something? They're called pilots and they can crash the plane!

[Edited 2006-07-28 02:57:56]
 
2H4
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:19 am




Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 11):
Southwest airlines completely changed the way pilots are trained and operate flights after the Burbank crash because they found that their old operation style of encouraging pilots to take short-cuts showed saftey concerns.

Do you have evidence that Southwest Airlines has ever encouraged pilots to "take short-cuts"? Produce it or stop making shortsighted accusations.

Your comments are complete and utter BS. WN did not "completely change the way pilots are trained" as a result of the Burbank overrun. Fact.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:12 pm

RE: Southwest's 300/500's Flight Decks (by SlamClick Nov 23 2005 in Tech Ops)#ID135313

READ NUMBER 14 WISE A$$! At the bottom, read what a SOUTHWEST CAPTAIN SAYS, and it's in response to this question about the BUR crash:

"Quoting SlamClick (Reply 13):
caused by a corporate culture of hot and high approaches and rush-rush operations."
 
comorin
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 14):
You guys think planes fly by themselves or something? They're called pilots and they can crash the plane!

Isn't that why they have the dog in the cockpit?  Wink
 
afay1
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Fri Jul 28, 2006 12:52 pm

I think the point, regardless of the comments about it, is valid. Aren't the onboard protection and navigation systems of the A320 supposed to obviate this sort of accident? Clearly, pilot error can occur with any aircraft, but it does seem like the main plusses always bandied about in relation to the A320 did not protect it in this case, although the specifics aren't really known. Does the GPWS work over turbulent water and/or can certain systems be fooled in a heavy storm situation?
 
2H4
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:14 pm




Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 16):
READ NUMBER 14 WISE A$$!

Doesn't quite jive with the recap of procedural changes that were explained in the WN ground school I attended, but if you feel better thinking otherwise, more power to you.




2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
YYZYYT
Posts: 909
Joined: Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:41 am

RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:59 pm

Quoting Comorin (Reply 12):
I didn't know that you could put a highly automated airliner like the A320 at risk for altitude, attitude and bearing - isn't it all pushbutton? Does this mean that the pilots hand flew the plane? Isn't it better to trust the avionics, especially in bad weather?

Grateful for any insight by pilots - thanks.



Quoting Afay1 (Reply 18):
I think the point, regardless of the comments about it, is valid. Aren't the onboard protection and navigation systems of the A320 supposed to obviate this sort of accident? Clearly, pilot error can occur with any aircraft, but it does seem like the main plusses always bandied about in relation to the A320 did not protect it in this case, although the specifics aren't really known. Does the GPWS work over turbulent water and/or can certain systems be fooled in a heavy storm situation?

Not a pilot, but I'll provide my 2 cents worth:

AFIK all modern airliners have GPWS, but it often does not provide enough warning. In many of these cases, by the time that the warning activates it is far too late - especially where the aircraft is flying toward terrain that rises quickly like Cali or Guam.

And as for the A320, it has had three other CFIT incidents:

Gulf Air 72:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20000823-0&lang=en

Air Inter 148:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19920120-0&lang=en

Air India 605:
http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19900214-2&lang=en

consider the CFIT crashes I noted above. The aircraft were MD80, 757 and 747-400: in other words as modern as an A320.
Also, consider the airlines involved: these are airlines with properly equipped aircraft and properly trained pilots, not 3rd world operators.

So the short answer is no, modern aircraft systems don't prevent this kind of thing.
 
User avatar
zeke
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 20):
AFIK all modern airliners have GPWS, but it often does not provide enough warning. In many of these cases, by the time that the warning activates it is far too late - especially where the aircraft is flying toward terrain that rises quickly like Cali or Guam.

EGPWS provides a 60 second master caution, and 30 second master warning if the terrain clearance floor becomes unsafe for Cali or Guam scenarios.

GPWS will not prevent spatial disorientation, nor should it prevent pilot from maneuvering aircraft close to the ground like we routinely do in say a circling approach.

Flying an aircraft still requires "skill", many on here believe pilot just push buttons and technology can prevent accidents, this obviously is totally flawed.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
javibi
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 9):
I recall a discussion here several months ago about a Belgian pilot who was fired for refusing a direct order from his employer to fly an aircraft that he considered to be unsafe...

Exact same thing happened some months ago here in my country  Sad

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 5):
I am sure that most pilots would agree with you, and most would not take such chances.

But unfortunately this is not always the case.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark   Sad

j
 
Lumberton
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RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:50 am

The airline is contesting the pilot error conclusion.
http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeni...3F-0037-431A-8EF2-D76CDED25649.ASP
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
User avatar
zeke
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Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

RE: Pilots Blamed For Armenia Air Crash

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:55 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 23):
The airline is contesting the pilot error conclusion.
http://www.armenialiberty.org/armeni...9.ASP



Quote:
"We do not deny that the crew made some mistakes during that flight," said Arshak Nalbandian, head of the private carrier's flight safety department. "Yes, it did. But was it those mistakes that led to the plane's collision with the sea? That has yet to be proven."

Swiss cheese. The airline agrees that the pilots made errors, however the airline is asking if the errors were made in isolation, or other safety nets fail to prevent the accident.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar

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