AFa340-300E
Topic Author
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Former Hubs

Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

Hello,

What are the former hubs you know?

Anyone would know when the BNA and RDU hubs were opened? How large they were?

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
doug
Posts: 699
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 1999 8:54 am

RE: Former Hubs

Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:47 am

I think American's BNA hub had 115 daily jet flight departures at its peak RDU around 70-85
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: Former Hubs

Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:51 am

Continental Lite in GSO and Eastwind (at max, 12 flts/day, but a tiny airline) and again, in GSO.
 
AFa340-300E
Topic Author
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RE: Former Hubs

Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:52 am

Hello,

Thanks! Would you know when was the peak of the hubs please?

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
doug
Posts: 699
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 1999 8:54 am

RE: Former Hubs

Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:54 am

BNA at its peak was around 1990-91 the same more or less for RDU
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: Former Hubs

Sat Jun 24, 2000 8:36 am

Continental Lite was in the early 90s. Eastwind reached its peak in 1998, and leaving us forever in Aug-Sept 1999.
 
Cody
Posts: 2172
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RE: Former Hubs

Sat Jun 24, 2000 11:39 am

Not only was Greensboro a "Lite" hub it was also used briefly by mainline Continental after they merged everything together. Although profitable and staffed by some very nice people, it was closed because management did not like the idea of two hubs on the east coast. They obtained better economies of scale using only one. Piedmont had a hub at Greensboro also. As for other hubs that are no more, Continental at DEN, LGA, IAD, San Jose, CA: United at Cleveland, USAir at LAX, SFO, CLE, CMH, DAY, MCI, SYR, BWI,: Eastern at MIA, ATL, MCI, IAH: Midway at Midway and PHL: Northwest at Milwaukee: I can't think right now I am tired.
 
Guest

RE: Former Hubs

Sat Jun 24, 2000 12:36 pm

RDU peaked in the early 1990's(93-94) before shutting down.
USAirways closed its hubs in MCI, SYR, and DAY as Cody said but still had a dominant prescence in those markets as one still has to connect on USAirways Express flights in the midwest through MCI. SYR was scaled back after Piedmont Airlines and Empire Air mergers were 'cleaned.' DAY was part of an airline I forgot the name of (Lake Central?). Also, BWI ranks 7th of USAirways traffic(if that doesnt make sense let me know).
Oh yeah, and of course my favorite former hub was Midway at MDW whose now at RDU and doesn't fly to MDW (yet).
Finally, I didn't know Eastwind was going under, oh well too bad they didn't expand their GSO service.

usairwys4lyfe@hotmail.com
 
Tom in NO
Posts: 6725
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 1999 10:10 am

RE: Former Hubs

Sat Jun 24, 2000 1:25 pm

If you want a little history, how about:

Braniff at DFW (peak late 70's to "82): bankrupt
Eastern at ATL (sometime until early 90's): folded by Lorenzo
Piedmont at Dayton (mid-late 80's): PI to USAir, DAY closed
TWA at Kansas City (early 80's): pulled hub
Continental at Denver (early to mid 80's): pulled hub

Mergers with hubs still here: Piedmont at Charlotte and BWI (merger with US); Republic at MSP, DTW, MEM (merger with NW); North Central at MSP and Southern at MEM and ATL (merged with each other, then with Hughes Airwest, then into NW)

There are a lot more, this is just from 5 minutes of thought. Hope it helps.

Tom in NO (at MSY, mourning Braniff and Eastern)
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
sccutler
Posts: 5568
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BN At KC

Sat Jun 24, 2000 1:29 pm

Remember Braniff, the Sequel, hubbing at Kansas City? I still think that one coulda worked... agreat airport, well-located and (at least then) underutilized.

And Tom, we all mourn BN's passing. They did it right.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
Ryefly
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2000 7:56 am

RE: Former Hubs

Sat Jun 24, 2000 1:47 pm

American cut flights drastically in 1993 out of RDU (probably regreating that now)

Continental I believe left a little later around 1995 in GSO. Eastwind shut down about a year after the Value Jet crash in Miami, as start up airlines were under the microscope, and public grew leary of flying small start ups.
 
j_hallgren
Posts: 1427
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RE: Former Hubs

Sat Jun 24, 2000 2:52 pm

So that explains it! I knew it had been "forever" since I used American and RDU, and didn't know they gave that hub up...Thanks!!

So what happened to RDU then? Is it empty?
COBOL - Not a dead language yet!
 
AFa340-300E
Topic Author
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Former Hubs

Sat Jun 24, 2000 5:19 pm

Hello,

Why did AA keep the RDU-LGW flight after they sht down the RDU hub?

Why did EAL build a hub at ATL? It was a place already under the Delta wings, and EAL had a hub at MIA, which isn't far. Why didn't they build anything at JFK, EWR or the US North-East Coast as a hub, in order to get out of their almost sole market (Florida-North-Est Coast)?

Anyone would have the dates when RDU, BNA, GSO, Eastwind were opened/closed?

I know some dates:
AA - DFW 1981
AA - ORD 1982
AA - MIA 1989
AA - San Juan 1986
AF - CDG 1st June 1996

Here is something about RDU and BNA: feel free to make correction/comments.
"Raleigh/Durham (RDU) and Nashville (BNA)

American never has had a real strong grasp in the Northeast, leaving Delta Air Lines and US Air as the big players.

So, in the 1980s, American Airlines decided it was going to seriously bump up operations out east. It chose Nashville and Raleigh-Durham as its two hubs.
But these hubs didn't revealed to be profitable for American Airlines, and both BNA and RDU were closed as hubs May 1, 1996.

BNA was closed because its only profitable flights were to/from West Coast and they were taking traffic from DFW and ORD. The decision was made to protect DFW & ORD hub operations at the expense of BNA-west coast flights.
Doing so made BNA unprofitable and it was closed. Load on short flights were heavy, but not profitable and raising fares just US$5 per ticket dropped loads to less than 1/2 full. Not enough to maintain short-haul flights.

RDU was closed at the same time, but for different reason. American Airlines purchased Eastern Airline's Latin American operations out of MIA, making Miami a hub, and that pulled most RDU North-South connecting traffic away from American Airlines' RDU hub. Flights that were once 70%+ full began flying less than 30% full.
RDU was not good location for East-West flights, as American already had ORD and DFW for those, and it could not compete with direct MIA and MIA connecting flights. Therefore RDU became unprofitable and was closed as well.

London services
American Airlines got the airport authority in 1994 to lengthen the main runway at BNA to allow American Airlines to do London non-stop.

The service to London-Gatwick were both started out of BNA and RDU on 26 May 1994.
The BNA flight was dropped with the hub operations, however the RDU-LGW flight was kept.
Recent rumors state AA could transfer the RDU-LGW to DFW in order to get third daily flight."


Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
Tom in NO
Posts: 6725
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 1999 10:10 am

RE: Former Hubs

Sat Jun 24, 2000 11:20 pm

Midway Airlines replaced AA at RDU. They run a mediu-sized hub from RDU with CRJ Regional jets, A-320's, and I believe some new 737's.

Tom in NO (at MSY)
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
AirT85
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Joined: Wed Aug 25, 1999 12:36 am

RE: Former Hubs, Several Corrections!

Sun Jun 25, 2000 1:11 am

Eastwind shutdown in 1999, three years after the VJ crash. The former Midway hub in Philly was the former hub operations of Eastern who closed down PHl when facing bankruptcy and sold it to MW. Eastern and Delta were both very large in Atlanta and Delta didnt reach its peak there until after Eastern went under, it took over Eastern's gates and tons of planes, its fleet shot from about 300 to 500 very very quickly after Eastern and PanAm folded. Other former hubs include AirTran in Orlando which was shut-down after the merger.
-Tony
Why would God make us all so different, if He wanted us to be the same?
 
AirT85
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Tom In NO

Sun Jun 25, 2000 2:12 am

Hehe! Another correction. Midway flies CRJ's, F-100's amd B-737-700's out of RDU. Not A-320's. Midway returned there lone A-320 i think in 1998 to Airbus. Near the end of its time with MW it only flew one round trip a day between RDU and BOS.
-Tony
Why would God make us all so different, if He wanted us to be the same?
 
N202PA
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2000 9:44 pm

RE: Former Hubs

Sun Jun 25, 2000 2:46 am

Pan Am had hubs in San Francisco and Berlin; the San Francisco one was sold to United with the transfer of the Pacific route structure in 1985. The Berlin one was shut down in 1989/1990 with the fall of the Berlin Wall--the exclusive American air service between the East German city and West Germany wasn't needed any more because there was one Germany. Apparently, Berlin was one of, if not *the*, wildest airline hub in the world.

Pan Am's Miami hub came from the merger with National in 1982, which would later (after years of development and redevelopment) move on to American, after Pan Am went down in December, 1991.

There was talk of moving the corporate headquarters of Pan Am from New York to Washington's new Dulles Airport in the early 1970s, but this was dismissed as crazy talk, despite the tax advantages. If they'd been smart and done this, they still might be around today...look at the success United has had with IAD...
 
Guest

CO In ELP

Sun Jun 25, 2000 3:32 am

A long time ago (early-mid 80's I think) Continental was starting a hub in ELP, TX. They had flights to some cities along the west coast and some to the east also. I'm not too sure how long it lasted, but I'm guessing not very long. Back when they had a hub in El Paso, they used gates B5 through B11. I've got some pictures around here somewhere of several Continental jets lined up at the gates in ELP.
 
AFa340-300E
Topic Author
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Former Hubs

Sun Jun 25, 2000 6:20 am

Hello,

Could anyone tell me about the FRA hub of Pan Am?
From what I know: Delta Air Lines bought all but the European but London routes, and then kept the hub for a short time (until the early 1990's) when they shut it down in favor of code-share partnerships with SR, OS and SN.
Is that it?

Thank you very much to all for their information,

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
Cody
Posts: 2172
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 12:16 pm

RE: Former Hubs

Sun Jun 25, 2000 7:53 am

Yes, Pan Am's Frankfurt was probably their biggest operation. I personally think it was larger than the JFK station. Here are some other former hubs.
ValuJet-IAD, ATL: Air Florida-TPA/MIA: TWA-CDG: Republic-PHX: Florida Express-MCO: Braniff 2-MCO, MCI, DFW: Air Cal-Orange County: PSA-LAX, SFO, SAN: Presidential-IAD: Pride Air-MSY: Northeastern International-MSY, ISP: Texas International-DFW: World Airways-OAK: Kiwi-EWR: Air Atlanta-Atlanta: Air One-STL: Ozark-STL: Key Air-IAD and then SAV: Eastern-Charlotte (later sold to Piedmont): United-MCO (anyone remember this one? It was opened in the early 90's and was part of the reason for the original IAD scaleback. Briefly they connected flights all over the US to cities in Florida using 757's within Florida!)
 
Ryefly
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2000 7:56 am

New RDU

Sun Jun 25, 2000 9:31 am

Those of you who are interested in knowing how RDU is doing since American dropped its hub I can give you some information I looked up.

Once American left, RDU has been thriving." top 5 fastest growing airports in the United States in 1999." What was once an airport dominated by one airline has since developed into a highly competitive market. RDU currently offers 13 different carriers to choose from and added 100 new new flights and served 8.9 million passengers in 1999. Competition between Midway, Delta Express, Southwest, Air Tran, and Merto Jet caused ticket prices to plunge to an all time low. Metro Jet just recently backed out of RDU in June due to competition and lack of planes needed in other markets such as LGA.

Most of American Airlines old gates in Terminal C were bought by Midway Airlines, and now serve as the airlines hub. Midway is the largest at RDU taking 26.3% of the market share followed by US Airways with 13.9%. Currently Midway offers 244 daily non-stops out of RDU to 26 destinatioins in 15 states. Midway's fleet is comprised of 32 aircraft including 22 CRJ's 8 F-100's and 2 of an order for 17 737-700's. A third 737-700 will be added later in the year as well as a CRJ. F-100's will be replaced with a mix of CRJ's and 737's once they become available.

As for American Airlines daily flight to London... The Raleigh News and Observer stated recently that American Airlines was extreamly happy with the flight, and it has consistantly proven to be one of their most profitable international flights. Due to overwhelming demand, American Airlines switched from 767-200 aircraft to 767-300's on this route. The News and Observer also stated that the 767 could be replaced with 777 by next year during peak seasons.

Due to the increaed service at RDU, it's quickly approaching the ammount of passengers RDU had when American was at its peek at RDU in 1992.(9.9 mil pax in '92) Plans for a temporary extention to Terminal A have started and will add an extra 5 gates by next year. This is until a new terminal can be built. Airlines such as Southwest are interested in increasing its service to RDU dramatically, but due to lack of gate space they are unable to at the moment. Currently Southwest has 2 gates and is interested in two more next year when they become available. Airlines like Jet Blue are interested as well in RDU, but at the moment there is no gates available. A third runway is the latest project in the works. No work has started yet, however a road next to 5L/23R has recently been closed for preperation. The most common complaint at RDU is no parking. A new parking deck offering 2,160 new spots across from Terminal A was finished this year and a 5,000 copacity deck will be completed in 2 or 3 years. In total RDU offers 15,600 spots and hopes to incease that to 30,000 as soon as possible.

I hope that informs you better on how RDU is doing since AA backed out. if you are interested in researching more information, I used www.rdu.com and www.newsandobserver.com. Have fun!
 
Guest

RE: RDU

Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:27 am

I do have to agree that RDU is a busy airport. A unique tidbit is that Terminal C (where AA used to hub and now it shares with JI) is somewhat different from Terminal A. I recently flew on Midway through RDU and you could tell it used to be an AA hub at the ticket counter with the giant American displays still there. Terminal A is different than C because the 'full-rate' airlines check-ins are located on one end while Air Tran and Southwest are on the other end. Also, Terminal A has alot more traffic than C (at least when I was there).
I have a question about the new rwy, I thought they couldn't build it due to the fact that Alltel constructed a cell-phone tower in the planned flight path. Are they still going through with the rwy construction? Please let me know. Thanks!!

usairwys4lyfe@hotmail.com
 
AFa340-300E
Topic Author
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RDU-ORY (Paris)

Mon Jun 26, 2000 4:42 am

Hello,

What about the RDU-ORY (Paris) flight?
When did they open the route?
When did they close it?

Did they need the traffic rights to France elsewhere or were the load factors and yields too low?

Likely to be re-start ever?

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
AFa340-300E
Topic Author
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RDU-ORY, RDU-LGW

Mon Jun 26, 2000 4:47 am

Hello again,

I think the RDU-ORY route was opened in 1988, but the RDU-LGW would have been started only in 1994. Why so much time difference?

Did American Airlines plan to operate to other European cities out of RDU?

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
Ryefly
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2000 7:56 am

RE: RDU-ORY, RDU-LGW

Mon Jun 26, 2000 11:27 am

I will look up that information very soon and get back to ya
 
LAXFlyer
Posts: 154
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 4:52 am

RE: CO In ELP For AWA

Mon Jun 26, 2000 1:40 pm

They started closing down the hub when Frankie bought us. Around 1982. At our peak we also flew to Mexico out of there.
 
ord
Posts: 1355
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: N202PA

Mon Jun 26, 2000 10:52 pm

Pan Am never had a hub at SFO. They never even had anything more than a few domestic and international flights. Heck, that's one reason they sold the Pacific routes to UA -- because they had no wewt coast hub and didn't have the money to develop one.
 
ord
Posts: 1355
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: AFa340-300E

Mon Jun 26, 2000 10:57 pm

When Delta bought Pan Am's European routes, their hub at Frankfurt included nonstops to the following US cities (most of which have since been dropped):

JFK, EWR, IAD, CVG, ATL, MCO, MIA, DFW, SFO, LAX
 
N202PA
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2000 9:44 pm

RE: N202PA

Mon Jun 26, 2000 11:08 pm

ORD:

PA had more than just a "few" international flights out of SFO--flights to Tokyo, Hong Kong, London, Beijing, Shanghai, etc. etc. Plus, I have PA booklets at home which promoted SFO as PA's international gateway to the Far East and the south Pacific.

The reason why PA sold the Pacific route structure was that we were hemmorhaging money after Ed Acker's disastrous billion-dollar buyout of National Airlines. Something had to go to keep the airline solvent--it was either the Pacific or the Atlantic, and there was less interest from the other airlines in buying the Atlantic routes at that time. The Pacific theater was one of Pan Am's few remaining profitable areas, and United wanted it *bad*.

Of course, it ended up to be way short of what was needed to save the company, but United went on to further develop the SFO base into a major hub for them.
 
imkeww
Posts: 676
Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2001 1:48 am

RE: Former Hubs

Tue Jun 27, 2000 12:53 am

Correction, AA's hub at MIA came from the demise of EA's operations (and also the transfer of a plethora of LatAm service from EA to AA).
 
ord
Posts: 1355
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 1999 10:34 pm

RE: N202PA

Tue Jun 27, 2000 3:18 am

A few points...

1. Your booklets promote SFO as an international gateway, not a hub. Any city with one international flight is an international gateway. Yes, Pan Am had a few (I repeat -- a few) international flights, but SFO was not a hub! By the way, I say a few international flights because at their height they only had about 3-5 nonstop international flights (Tokyo, and London for sure, maybe two or three others). Compare that to, say, Delta at JFK -- they have 25+ international flights.

2. A hub has waves of incoming and outgoing flights which connect to each other. Pan Am had no such operation, ever, at SFO. Domestically, I think they had one or two flights to IAH, MSY, JFK, MIA and IAD -- that's all.

3. I'd have to double-check myself, but I don't believe Acker purchased National. I think he was at Air Florida at the time and that William Sewell bought National (I think the National purchase was called "Sewell's Follies").

4. While the National deal did cost Pan Am a great deal of money, a lot of it was gained back when the Pan Am building was sold. Pan Am was reeling in large part to Acker's wild international expansion after the National sale with nearly empty 747s combined with the recession.

5. While Pan Am needed the money from the Pacific sale, they publicly maintained that in order to grow the Pacific they would have had to develop a west coast feed operation with one or more hubs. If they had such a structure in place they may not have made the sale at the time they did. That proves SFO was no hub.

6. You state that there was less interest in the Atlantic routes from other airlines. You make it sound as if these other airlines were bidding to get either the Pacific or the Atlantic. In fact, the sale to United was a highly-secret deal that no other airline knew about. I remember well that spring 1985 day when the deal was announced -- it was a shocker to the entire industry. And nobody was more upset than Bob Crandall at American because he never knew anything about the deal and never even had a chance to bid for the routes.
 
Ryefly
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2000 7:56 am

RE: RDU-ORY, RDU-LGW

Tue Jun 27, 2000 4:49 am

I found the information you were interested in...

American started service to Paris from RDU during 1988.
Discontinues daily service in September of 1994.

London service started May 26,1993.
 
Ryefly
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2000 7:56 am

USAirways4lyfe

Tue Jun 27, 2000 4:58 am

I have been researching archives looking for information regarding the cancelation of the new runway at RDU. Currently I have found no information stating the runway project is on hold. The Raleigh News and Observer's last article about the proposed runway was written in March,2000. A lot has happened since then, so I will continue looking. I have also not heard anything about this on the local news channels. If I hear any information on this I will gladly post it.
 
AFa340-300E
Topic Author
Posts: 2115
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 3:49 am

RE: Former Hubs

Tue Jun 27, 2000 5:11 am

Hello,

Are you sure for the London service please?

abc American Airlines and www.rdu.com display
"May 26, 1994 - American Airlines begins RDU-London Gatwick service."

Mayve you siwtched years with the discontinuation of ORY?

Best regards,
Alain Mengus
 
Guest

RE: RyeFly

Tue Jun 27, 2000 6:28 am

Yeah, the article I found was in the Wilmington Morning Star back in the fall, I believe. Thanks for checking!

usairwys4lyfe@hotmail.com
 
Cody
Posts: 2172
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 12:16 pm

RE: Pan Am @ SFO

Tue Jun 27, 2000 9:28 am

Pan Am used Pacific Express, a BAC 111 operator based at Chico, to feed them at SFO. I guess it didn't work very well since Pan Am and Pacific Express are no more.
 
Ryefly
Posts: 1324
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2000 7:56 am

AFa340-300E

Tue Jun 27, 2000 12:42 pm

Sorry about that, you are right, I went back and looked and it is May 26, 1994, NOT 1993. Either I need glasses, or I was typing to fast again. I prefer to think the later. Once again, sorry.