jetlanta
Posts: 1479
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Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:35 pm

 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:40 pm

Haven't I been saying for months that DL would find a way to serve this most important market... the one they call the Crown Jewel.

Gives CO and AA one less advantage over DL in NYC... esp. in negotiating corporate agreements.

JFKNRT is the last major route left on the hit list.

This also is notable in that it marks UA’s continued deterioration in the NE. Gotta be a sad day for some UA employees.

[Edited 2006-07-28 15:51:06]
 
CHRISBA777ER
Posts: 3715
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:44 pm

LGW - JFK CO nice comfy PTV 772 excellent service.

or

LGW - JFK DL ancient 763 NO PTV crappy service.

Let me see....

Ummmm.....

Can you repeat the question?
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
jetlanta
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:49 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
LGW - JFK CO nice comfy PTV 772 excellent service.

or

LGW - JFK DL ancient 763 NO PTV crappy service.

Let me see....

Ummmm.....

Can you repeat the question?

Well, your point might make sense if CO served LGW-JFK, but they don't.

And even if they did, the money is made in the front cabin, and the products their are roughly comparable. And very few actual customers care about a 777 vs a 767. Really.

LGW vs. LHR is the long-term competitive challenge for Delta here, not EWR vs. JFK.

[Edited 2006-07-28 15:50:10]
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1479
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:51 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 1):
Haven't I been saying for months that DL would find a way to serve this most important market... the one they call the Crown Jewel.

I think all of WorldTraveler's critics should at least acknowledge that he did make this call. Certainly adds a little credibility to some of his insight.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:53 pm

You also fail to note that DL is putting PTVs up front on all of their 767s and throughout the planes on the 764s and 777s. Thankfully, the British and America people both are largely literate and most can stomach the thought of reading a book for 7 hours and change.
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:56 pm

Well this was the missing link in Delta Airlines system. Congrats to Delta for a route that is sure to fill the gap in the network! SKYTEAM needed this route for a very long time!
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:56 pm

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 3):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
LGW - JFK CO nice comfy PTV 772 excellent service.

or

LGW - JFK DL ancient 763 NO PTV crappy service.

Let me see....

Ummmm.....

Can you repeat the question?

Well, your point might make sense if CO served LGW-JFK, but they don't.

And even if they did, the money is made in the front cabin, and the products their are roughly comparable. And very few actual customers care about a 777 vs a 767. Really.

LGW vs. LHR is the long-term competitive challenge for Delta here, not EWR vs. JFK.

LOL sorry my bad - not enough coffee!
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
You also fail to note that DL is putting PTVs up front on all of their 767s and throughout the planes on the 764s and 777s. Thankfully, the British and America people both are largely literate and most can stomach the thought of reading a book for 7 hours and change.

Not to mention the latest on the back of the bus on the 767s...

But that will come in time  Wink
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:08 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
You also fail to note that DL is putting PTVs up front on all of their 767s and throughout the planes on the 764s and 777s. Thankfully, the British and America people both are largely literate and most can stomach the thought of reading a book for 7 hours and change.

LOL...

Heaven forbid that someone be well read this day in age..  wink 

P.S.

World Traveler, Alitalia 744... How many people on here said that JFK-LGW would never happen?
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:11 pm

This is an important route for DL as they will never be the player they want at JFK without access to London. Of course, whether DL will make money on this route is a different story. NYC-LON can be a notorious money loser in the winter and tough even in the summer.
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:17 pm

This also validates my point that I made over and over again that DL couldn’t begin JFKLGW service even if it wanted to because of the restrictions in Bermuda II. NYC-London is a restricted access market to both LHR and LGW. DL obviously will be flying JFKLGW now because it bought its way into the market, not because it previously could but decided not to.
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 888
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 10):
This is an important route for DL as they will never be the player they want at JFK without access to London. Of course, whether DL will make money on this route is a different story. NYC-LON can be a notorious money loser in the winter and tough even in the summer.

I am skeptical of this route as well. LHR is without a doubt the preferred airport for business pax. However, even if it loses money, I can't see DL letting this route go especially after all they have done to get it. Hell, CO makes it work across the river. If DL truly builds JFK into a hub, perhaps the feed can make it work.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
incitatus
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:22 pm

It is shame on the American and British governments that this 1950's transaction is taking place. Delta should be free to serve any market in the UK it wants without having to purchase an "authority" from another airline. Aren't the USA and the UK realms of freer markets?
Stop pop up ads
 
airmailer
Posts: 478
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:24 pm

"
Delta To Buy NY-London Route Authority From UAL >DALRQ


DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
July 28, 2006 9:55 a.m.

DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

Delta Air Lines Inc. (DALRQ) reached a definitive agreement with Chicago-based UAL Corp. (UAUA) to acquire the route authority to serve London's Gatwick Airport nonstop from New York's John F. Kennedy International Airport.

Terms of the deal weren't disclosed.
"

I though that everyone on here was convinced that DL was too broke to be purchasing rights like these.
 
B747-437B
Posts: 8777
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 11):
NYC-London is a restricted access market to both LHR and LGW.

Under Bermuda II, EVERY market to LHR and LGW is restricted to a maximum of 1 carrier on each side unless certain market-size thresholds are exceeded, in which case an additional carrier can be authorised. There are also 2 sets of city pairs for each side whereby an additional carrier can operate. This leaves a de-facto maximum of 3 carriers from each side as a theoretical maximum competing on a single route.

This is also the reason why MaxJet and EOS are forced to serve Stansted rather than Gatwick.

[Edited 2006-07-28 16:26:16]
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
jetlanta
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Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2001 2:35 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:25 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 10):
This is an important route for DL as they will never be the player they want at JFK without access to London. Of course, whether DL will make money on this route is a different story. NYC-LON can be a notorious money loser in the winter and tough even in the summer.

Excellent point. In fact, it isn't likely to make money in its own right for ages. Maybe not even until they can move it to LHR, if then. BUT, what it does do is make them competitive for major corporate contrats that they had been previously shut out of, or at least disadvantaged with. It also allows access to London for Delta customers in the northeast, further cementing the carrier as their full-service airline of choice.

Another thought...NW and UA have both exited the JFK-NRT market. While this is a dubious statement on the economics of the market, it is probably also an indictment on each carriers position in the NYC market. Anyone care to place bets on how soon Delta goes after JFK-NRT?
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:27 pm

Tin,
I will reiterate again. DL and CO have consistently had better average fares from their ATL/CVG/EWR/IAH gateways to LGW than UA has had from either JFK or even – get this – ORD – to LHR. UA has not been able to get a fare premium to LHR over DL and CO to LGW from its hometown hub to LHR.

LHR is not in any way a guarantee of success. And neither is LGW a sentence to lose money.
 
commavia
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:32 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
DL and CO have consistently had better average fares from their ATL/CVG/EWR/IAH gateways to LGW than UA has had from either JFK or even – get this – ORD – to LHR

I think this is largely more a function of United's dwindling corporate contract presence in the New York area, and United's overall shrinkage in the London market vis-a-vis American and BA.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 17):
And neither is LGW a sentence to lose money.

From JFK, I think it is. I simply fail to see how this is really going to change the corporate contract situation for Delta in New York. Sure, there will be companies who now shift business to Delta because they will offer a link to London (as long as it may or may not last) but I still feel that the vast majority of the big, high-dollar corporate contract players in the New York-London market want Heathrow. They are not going to shift business to Delta which is going to get them to Gatwick, when American can get them to Heathrow 6x per day and BA can 7x per day.
 
MalpensaSFO
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Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:33 pm

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 13):
It is shame on the American and British governments that this 1950's transaction is taking place.

The British need it to protect the interest of archaic British Airways...
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
airmailer
Posts: 478
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:28 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:34 pm

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 4):
I think all of WorldTraveler's critics should at least acknowledge that he did make this call. Certainly adds a little credibility to some of his insight.

I believe that you did call this one in fact. Good Job!
Now just remember that Delta sucks, CO rules, and DL will loose Billions of $ operating this route.  Wink

I can't believe that DL plans to start this service before the end of the year, but I guess why wait?
 
AwysBSB
Posts: 450
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:38 pm

JFK-LGW-JFK would be great for a LCC, as those airports are peripheral.
Could Song operate that route?
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18):
From JFK, I think it is. I simply fail to see how this is really going to change the corporate contract situation for Delta in New York. Sure, there will be companies who now shift business to Delta because they will offer a link to London (as long as it may or may not last) but I still feel that the vast majority of the big, high-dollar corporate contract players in the New York-London market want Heathrow. They are not going to shift business to Delta which is going to get them to Gatwick, when American can get them to Heathrow 6x per day and BA can 7x per day.

$ talks and bullshit walks. If DL offers them a contract for less money than AA, they'll shift. Todays' market is ruled by lowest cost across the board - look at how corporate travel contracts work
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:41 pm

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 4):
I think all of WorldTraveler's critics should at least acknowledge that he did make this call. Certainly adds a little credibility to some of his insight

He did make this call, and he does deserve the due credit for this...
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
commavia
Posts: 9651
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:43 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 22):
If DL offers them a contract for less money than AA, they'll shift.

And if Delta is giving away corporate contracts "for less money than AA" on a regular basis, and tying up premium BizElite seats with these cheapo contracts, how are they supposed to make money on the route?

(And, by the way, Alitalia744, I want to make it clear that I agree with you completely -- heavily discounting of corporate contracts is indeed exactly how I anticipate Delta is going to approach the market.)
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:44 pm

Quoting B747-437B (Reply 15):
Under Bermuda II, EVERY market to LHR and LGW is restricted

Thank you. I’ve said that for years but all the “experts” here were convinced that LGW is not a restricted access airport. Amazing that someone from India has a better grasp on US-UK treaties than many supposed experts from the US.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18):
I think this is largely more a function of United's dwindling corporate contract presence in the New York area, and United's overall shrinkage in the London market vis-a-vis American and BA.

My point exactly. UA cannot compete in the most competitive markets. If you can’t make London work even from your hometown better than a smaller competitor, you have problems. And it raises doubt about UA’s ability to effectively compete against a growing number of US airlines that are growing their presence to Asia. UA has allowed itself to fall to number 4 from the US to Latin America, #4 to Europe, and could not make the world’s largest air travel market work (NYC-London).

UA will probably put its slot into either IAD, SFO, or LAX. They could sell it but that would really seal their fate.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18):
I simply fail to see how this is really going to change the corporate contract situation for Delta in New York

You apparently don’t understand the corporate arena. CO has done a yeoman’s job of changing the thought process regarding EWR being an also-ran airport. You can bet they had to discount aggressively in order to get businesses to come out to EWR at first. Yet, CO does very well on EWR-LGW and flies every frequency it is allowed to fly (up to 3X/day this summer). DL won’t have yields like AA out of JFK but they will be a very solid player. More importantly, though, they have a presence in a must-serve market that will allow them to become a very credible player in the overall NYC market.
 
bhxdtw
Posts: 1035
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:44 pm

Didnt DL operate the JFK route into LGW a while back still with a 763 ??
I think they did....

why did they stop ? Im guessing it was post 9/11 ??

Joe
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:48 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 24):
And if Delta is giving away corporate contracts "for less money than AA" on a regular basis, and tying up premium BizElite seats with these cheapo contracts, how are they supposed to make money on the route?

Delta Airlines has to do what it has to do in the market. In addition Delta Airlines is supported heavily by tour operators that can use Delta for all Euro routes with the exception of London. This is the link that Delta needed in the JFK market. Now if the hot rumor is true Delta Airlines returning to the NRT-JFK market will be announced within a few weeks..
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
DLPMMM
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:49 pm

A small note to think of for those who say it can't work,

DL will be the ONLY airline offering non-stop JFK-LGW.

There are alot of people and businesses to the south and east of London where LGW is more convenient than LHR.

DL will have a lock on this market since AA, BA, and VS are restricted to NYC to either LHR or LGW and none will give up LHR.

The only competition to LGW will be CO from EWR.

This could be a good money maker for DL.
 
airmailer
Posts: 478
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:28 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:50 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
LGW - JFK DL ancient 763 NO PTV crappy service.

I thought that the 763ERs were getting PTVs throughout. It was going to take a while, but I'm pretty sure that it's in the pipeline.
Please Someone Correct Me If I'm Wrong About That!

Here's some stuff from the DL Press Release:
"
``Our customers have long awaited the addition of daily nonstop Delta flights on the world's most popular international route,'' said Jim Whitehurst, Delta's chief operating officer. ``Airline consumers in cities throughout the U.S. will benefit from the increased competition these flights will generate as they fill a critical gap in our international network, allowing customers to choose Delta for travel between New York and London.

``Delta already has the most expansive U.S.-to-Europe network and it is only fitting that America's largest trans-Atlantic airline should offer service on a route that is so important to our customers and the communities we serve,'' Whitehurst continued.

With the addition of service to London, Delta will serve 22 trans-Atlantic markets nonstop from JFK, including eight destinations not served by any major U.S. carrier. In total, Delta has announced or launched eight new trans-Atlantic destinations from JFK this year, in addition to six new Latin/Caribbean routes and 14 new domestic routes.

``This is another great achievement for Delta, JFK and New York City,'' said New York City Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg. ``The addition of this new, nonstop service to Delta's network will greatly enhance the travel experience for travelers between the Northeast Corridor and London. I commend Delta for its commitment to New York City and promise to continue to work to make both the city's airports more accommodating to our important world travelers.''

Delta plans to operate the new flights with the 214-passenger Boeing 767-300ER aircraft featuring Delta's award-winning BusinessElite service and will be available for sale to customers as soon as Delta receives required approval from the DOT. Schedules for the new Delta service will be announced following DOT approval.

Customers flying BusinessElite to and from London will enjoy Delta's recently upgraded business class cabins and service, including all-leather sleeper seats with 60 inches of legroom; innovative food offerings designed by celebrity chef Michelle Bernstein; award-winning, original wine selections; and on-demand personal in-seat entertainment boasting more than 20 first-run and popular classic movies, a variety of TV programs, a broad range of music, and a suite of 12 video games. Economy class customers also will enjoy recent improvements on Delta, including new all-leather economy seats, enhanced food offerings, personal amenity kits and a complimentary cocktail with each meal.

As JFK's leading airline, Delta operates nonstop service to more U.S. and international destinations than any other carrier. In total, Delta will offer customers 166 peak day flights to 72 worldwide destinations by December, including new nonstop service to 11 international destinations and more than a dozen new domestic destinations that began this summer. Additionally, this fall, Delta will begin the world's first nonstop flights between Mumbai, India and the United States with daily nonstop service between Mumbai and JFK effective Nov. 1. And, on Dec. 11, Delta will begin the first nonstop service offered by any major U.S. carrier between New York and Africa with four-times weekly service to Accra, Ghana.

To support the continued growth of the JFK hub, Delta is investing in more than $20 million in renovations to its Terminal 2 and 3 facilities at JFK. Refurbishments under way include the addition of a new, dedicated BusinessElite check-in area in Terminal 2, refurbishing the customs and immigrations entrance, refreshing facilities in Delta's BusinessElite lounge and Crown Room Clubs, and adding new international check-in kiosks throughout the facility.

Delta's proposed service between JFK and London will complement an extensive schedule of flights between its three international gateways and the United Kingdom. With the winter schedule, Delta will operate seven peak-day flights between the U.S. and the U.K. with two flights between Atlanta and London, one flight between Atlanta and Edinburgh, one flight between Atlanta and Manchester, one flight between New York-JFK and Manchester, one flight between Cincinnati and London, and the newly proposed flight between New York-JFK and London.

"
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:51 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 27):
Now if the hot rumor is true Delta Airlines returning to the NRT-JFK market will be announced within a few weeks..

Shhh...  Wink
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
commavia
Posts: 9651
Joined: Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:30 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:52 pm

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 25):
You apparently don’t understand the corporate arena.

I do understand the corporate arena. I understand that there are thousands of people each week that fly between New York and London, many of them very high-yield premium-class business travelers, and most of them want to go to Heathrow, not Gatwick, for a multitude of reasons outlined in numerous A.net threads over the years.

Bottom line is this: I wish Delta the best of luck on trying to make money on the route, but I'm not holding my breath for any stellar results anytime soon.

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 27):
In addition Delta Airlines is supported heavily by tour operators that can use Delta for all Euro routes with the exception of London.

Tour operators -- isn't that the definition of high-yielding?  Smile (Sarcasm, of course.)
 
MalpensaSFO
Posts: 1110
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:17 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:54 pm

Quoting Commavia (Reply 31):
Tour operators -- isn't that the definition of high-yielding? (Sarcasm, of course.)

It is what fills UAL from HNL-Japan, SEA-Japan, LAX-Japan

It is what fills NWA from HNL-Japan, SEA-Japan, LAX-Japan
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
BCAL
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:56 pm

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 19):
The British need it to protect the interest of archaic British Airways...

Why does everyone equate Bermuda II solely with BA? VS is the other designated UK carrier, and the US carriers are AA and UA, all of whose interests are being protected as much as, if not more than BA. In addition, AI and KU have traffic rights on the route, and EI and NZ have fifth freedom rights. There are six (or 8 if EI and NZ take up their fifth freedom rights) airlines competing on the same route. Apart from LHR-HKG, are there any other international routes that see six or more airlines competing on?

Quoting AwysBSB (Reply 21):
JFK-LGW-JFK would be great for a LCC, as those airports are peripheral.

LGW is not peripheral, and a LCC has operated in the past between LGW-JFK-LGW in the form of Laker Skytrain.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
richierich
Posts: 3282
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:57 pm

What are the chances of BA or even VS adding a LGW-JFK service to combat DL?

For me personally, I have no problem flying to LGW for my UK/London needs, as long as the price is right. I find Gatwick easier than LHR for getting around on public transportation (for example, I can get on a train and get to most parts of the UK without even having to step foot in London.)
None shall pass!!!!
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:59 pm

This certainly will be interesting to watch.....the big question is whether Delta can make the JFK-LGW route work, there are very well reasoned agruements to support both positions. I must say that I am surprised>

There is an article on Yahoo that Delta is paying "up to $21 million" to United to acquire the authority on the New York to London route. I guess that I need a Bermuda 2 expert to help me out here:

1. LGW is not free access, that I know.

2. The JFK-London (LHR/LGW) route is limited to 2 US carriers....thus DL is replacing UA on the route and that is why the payment is being made>

3. But, since only AA and UA can fly into LHR, Delta has no choice but to use LGW for the JFK-London flight, thus we are seeing JFK-LGW announced.

Is that the correct analysis of the situation?

In any case, it will certainly be interesting to see how DL succeeds with this route into LGW.......can they find success on the JFK-LGW route when other airlines could not?
 
DLPMMM
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Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2005 12:34 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:03 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 35):
In any case, it will certainly be interesting to see how DL succeeds with this route into LGW.......can they find success on the JFK-LGW route when other airlines could not?

Other than Laker Skytrain, I don't know that anyone else has tried JFK-LGW. Seems that everyone automatically went LHR.
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:05 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 36):
I don't know that anyone else has tried JFK-LGW.

BA had a JFK-LGW flight for years, one flight per day, in addition to their Heathrow services. It was dropped a few years ago.
 
BCAL
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RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:08 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 34):
What are the chances of BA or even VS adding a LGW-JFK service to combat DL?

BA had a LGW-JFK service, which they inherited from their merger with British Caledonian in the late 1980s. IIRC, the service was then routed via MAN (or GLA) but soon the LGW sector was dropped completely. Whether this was due to low loads/yields, or because BA was ordered by the mergers and monopolies commission to drop it in favour of another UK airline, or even because BA did not want it competing with their LHR-JFK service, I do not know.

[Edited 2006-07-28 17:16:15]
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 7984
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:11 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 34):
What are the chances of BA or even VS adding a LGW-JFK service to combat DL?

Why bother. Given that BA and VS already can fly to JFK from LHR anyway, they'll never do it.
 
kiwiandrew

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 25):
My point exactly. UA cannot compete in the most competitive markets. If you can’t make London work even from your hometown better than a smaller competitor, you have problems.

I don't understand your comment - are you suggesting the JFK is UA's 'hometown' ? If so I think you need to check a route map . The point is not that UA cannot compete from its hometown , it is that it cannot compete from a point which is not its hometown - which is why they have ( very wisely IMHO ) decided to abandon a route that they would never be able to make work in favour of other routes from UA's real 'hometowns' which they think they can work .
 
jumbojet
Posts: 996
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 3:01 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:14 am

Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 27):
Now if the hot rumor is true Delta Airlines returning to the NRT-JFK market will be announced within a few weeks..

With what aircraft? correct me if I am wrong but with the start up of JFK to BOM on November 1st, doesnt that tie up all DL's T7's on routes that require them?
 
BCAL
Posts: 2925
Joined: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:16 pm

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:15 am

Quoting DLPMMM (Reply 36):
Other than Laker Skytrain, I don't know that anyone else has tried JFK-LGW

British Caledonian operated the route in the 1970s and 1980s. It was temporarily dropped in the late 1970s, when all airlines were experiencing difficulties and there were too many airlines chasing too few passengers on the route. When BCal applied for permission to restart the services, the UK and US Governments objected to their application and instead granted a temporary permit, soon made permanent, to Sir Freddie Laker and his Skytrain service.
MOL on SRB's latest attack at BA: "It's like a little Chihuahua barking at a dying Labrador. Nobody cares."
 
tinpusher007
Posts: 888
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 2:03 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:16 am

I am certainly no expert...

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 35):
1. LGW is not free access, that I know.

True.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 35):
2. The JFK-London (LHR/LGW) route is limited to 2 US carriers....thus DL is replacing UA on the route and that is why the payment is being made>

Also true.

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 35):
3. But, since only AA and UA can fly into LHR, Delta has no choice but to use LGW for the JFK-London flight, thus we are seeing JFK-LGW announced.

Is that the correct analysis of the situation?

You are 3 for 3.
"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
 
klwright69
Posts: 2318
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 4:22 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:17 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 25):
Quoting B747-437B (Reply 15):
Under Bermuda II, EVERY market to LHR and LGW is restricted

Thank you. I’ve said that for years but all the “experts” here were convinced that LGW is not a restricted access airport. Amazing that someone from India has a better grasp on US-UK treaties than many supposed experts from the US.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18):
I think this is largely more a function of United's dwindling corporate contract presence in the New York area, and United's overall shrinkage in the London market vis-a-vis American and BA.

My point exactly. UA cannot compete in the most competitive markets. If you can’t make London work even from your hometown better than a smaller competitor, you have problems. And it raises doubt about UA’s ability to effectively compete against a growing number of US airlines that are growing their presence to Asia. UA has allowed itself to fall to number 4 from the US to Latin America, #4 to Europe, and could not make the world’s largest air travel market work (NYC-London).

UA will probably put its slot into either IAD, SFO, or LAX. They could sell it but that would really seal their fate.

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18):
I simply fail to see how this is really going to change the corporate contract situation for Delta in New York

You apparently don’t understand the corporate arena. CO has done a yeoman’s job of changing the thought process regarding EWR being an also-ran airport. You can bet they had to discount aggressively in order to get businesses to come out to EWR at first. Yet, CO does very well on EWR-LGW and flies every frequency it is allowed to fly (up to 3X/day this summer). DL won’t have yields like AA out of JFK but they will be a very solid player. More importantly, though, they have a presence in a must-serve market that will allow them to become a very credible player in the overall NYC market.

WT, I think you take things too far sometimes.......

But I think this is one of your best written and thought out postings!
 
worldtraveler
Posts: 3417
Joined: Tue Aug 05, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting Commavia (Reply 31):
Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 27):
In addition Delta Airlines is supported heavily by tour operators that can use Delta for all Euro routes with the exception of London.

Tour operators -- isn't that the definition of high-yielding?

Why couldn’t DL use tour operators for JFK-LGW? I doubt if they will need to but there is no reason they couldn’t.

It is entirely possible BA will shift one or more of its frequencies from JFK LHR to JFK LGW but they really only legitimize DL’s presence in the market. And remember that DL has costs that are now 30% or more lower than BA’s. BA will not win in a shoot out with DL. If anything, BA should be grateful they have no real US competitor from JFK to LHR anymore.

This also highlights why Bermuda 2 will have to be completely scrapped if AA and BA want to grow their US presence at all. Oneworld now has a monopoly in the world’s largest international market.
 
burnsie28
Posts: 5027
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:49 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:22 am

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
777s

They already had PTV's in their 777's, in fact it had them in 2002.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 5):
You also fail to note that DL is putting PTVs up front on all of their 767s

When I flew DL from ATL-FRA-ATL in 2002, walking past the biz class, it looked to me like they were PTV equipped.

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 16):
Delta goes after JFK-NRT?

Does Delta even have enough slots in NRT?

Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 16):
.NW and UA have both exited the JFK-NRT

NW is just temporary, it will be coming back, and NW will have a huge advantage in the market using the 787 for the flights. Not to mention the awesome aminities that will be on the 787's.
 
airmailer
Posts: 478
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:28 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:25 am

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 41):
Quoting MalpensaSFO (Reply 27):
Now if the hot rumor is true Delta Airlines returning to the NRT-JFK market will be announced within a few weeks..

With what aircraft? correct me if I am wrong but with the start up of JFK to BOM on November 1st, doesnt that tie up all DL's T7's on routes that require them?

Factor in the lead time that they would need for such an announcement... 6 months or so right? Well 6 months from now we will be in the beginning of February. It will take DL several weeks to get around to announcing the route from what I have read on other posts.

I don't know the exact month, but next year DL will receive 2 more T7s.
Even if only 1 of them are delivered early in the year that will be just in time for the startup of this route by my rough estimation.
 
airmailer
Posts: 478
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:28 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:32 am

Quoting Burnsie28 (Reply 46):
Quoting Jetlanta (Reply 16):
.NW and UA have both exited the JFK-NRT

NW is just temporary, it will be coming back, and NW will have a huge advantage in the market using the 787 for the flights. Not to mention the awesome aminities that will be on the 787's.

Don't forget that Boeing will be announcing their ramped up production schedule and subsequent newly availble slots next year for the 787... just in time for DL to be out of Bankruptcy and ready to buy some new aircraft if they should so desire.
 
pilot21
Posts: 983
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 1999 8:28 am

RE: Delta To Fly JFK-LGW

Sat Jul 29, 2006 12:35 am

Quoting BCAL (Reply 33):
and EI and NZ have fifth freedom rights

BCAL, Aer Lingus have 5th freedom rights out of Heathrow? I know they had them out of Manchester, and used them a lot for yrs on their European routes, but this is the first time I have ever heard of them having 5th freedom out of Heathrow. (I'm just curious on this news, not dismissing it)

Also as has been pointed out above, I always thought B11 related to Heathrow and so was surprised to read that DL couldn't serve the route before now even if they wanted to..just shows you learn something new everyday!

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 25):
You apparently don’t understand the corporate arena. CO has done a yeoman’s job of changing the thought process regarding EWR being an also-ran airport. You can bet they had to discount aggressively in order to get businesses to come out to EWR at first.

Does anybody have an idea how many flights DL will put on this route, because if it is only 1 a day, regardless of what discounts they offer corporate clients, convenience over cost will win out. My company has a deal with BA and AA as back up on the LHR-JFK route because when you have 2 or 3 people on every flight, every week day, you need flexibility to allow the system to work. Telling somebody they have to stay in NY or London an extra day because they missed the only return flight the company has a corporate deal with will not fly. (excuse the pun!)
Aircraft I've flown: A300/A310/A320/A321/A330/A340/B727/B732/B733/B734/B735/B738/B741/B742/B744/DC10/MD80/IL62/Bae146/AR

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