StarGoldLHR
Topic Author
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US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:15 am

When did non-stop flights between europe and the west coast start ?

Was a 707 variant capable or was it the 747-100 or even the 747-400 in the 1990's before Europe and LA/SFO/SEA were connected direct from europe ?

Which european airlines flew to the west coast before the days of non-stop flights and which started the non-stop routes ?

Before direct flights to europe commenced how did european airlines reach LA and SFO ?

Did BA/AF/LH etc stopover in the US / Canada somewhere then continue to the west coast or was it all handled by partner airlines ?

I assume most US WC pax flew to the east coast and onwards to Europe all via US Airlines ?
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Coronado990
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:08 am

I flew LH from SFO-FRA in 1962 and 1964 and we always stoped at YUL and then either LHR or ORY before landing in FRA.

There was no service to LAX on LH in those days.
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StarGoldLHR
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:19 am

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 1):
I flew LH from SFO-FRA in 1962 and 1964 and we always stoped at YUL and then either LHR or ORY before landing in FRA.

There was no service to LAX on LH in those days.

What a/c type did you fly ?
In those days did airlines have 5th freedoms to pick up and carry passengers say from SFO-LHR or YUL to SFO ?
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
Gemuser
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:20 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Thread starter):
When did non-stop flights between europe and the west coast start ?

A lot earlier than you are thinking! This is off the top of my head, so the details may vary a bit, but I think I am basically right.

SK started CPH-SEA-LAX in the late 1950s (1958?) with Constallations. I think PA also operated DC7s West Coast Europe.

BOAC operated LHR-JFK-LAX Iinto the 1980s (It was part of their South Pacific service which went LHR-JFK-LAX-HNL-NAN-SYD-MEL)

Gemuser
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san747
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:21 am

I think the 747-100 brought the advent of nonstop LAX/SFO/SEA-LHR/FRA/CDG/ORY services... As the 747 became more successful, more routes were flown, and the -400 made the flights that much more economical in the '90s... The 767, 777 and A340 were also facilitators of EU-West Coast services later on as well.
Scotty doesn't know...
 
StarGoldLHR
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:36 am

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 3):
BOAC operated LHR-JFK-LAX Iinto the 1980s (It was part of their South Pacific service which went LHR-JFK-LAX-HNL-NAN-SYD-MEL)

That must have been a long interesting flight, was this VC10s ?

I saw a picture of a Comet in Hawaii once but I thought it was just a promo not a viable route.
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
WesternA318
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:47 am

TWA did LAX/SFO-LHR/CDG flights with Connies, and KLM from what Iremember did with DC-8's.
Check out my blog at fl310travel.blogspot.com!
 
Coronado990
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:50 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 2):
What a/c type did you fly ?

It was the 707-330B from SFO.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Gerhard Plomitzer


As far as LAX goes I believe LH started around 1969 with a 707-430 and stopped at AMS...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alain Picollet



Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 2):
In those days did airlines have 5th freedoms to pick up and carry passengers say from SFO-LHR or YUL to SFO ?

Here are the rules on LH 1962...

No traffic permitted to be picked up or put down at Montreal for transportation to or from Paris/London or San Francisco or points beyond via San Francisco. No stopover permitted at Montreal to transatlantic San Francisco or points beyond traffic via Montreal. No change of carrier permitted at Montreal to transatlantic eastbound San Francisco or points beyond traffic via Montreal nor to transatlantic westbound Paris/London traffic via Montreal.

Luckily, I had all that memorized from when I was 5 years old!  Wink
Uncle SAN at your service!
 
vv701
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:52 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Thread starter):
When did non-stop flights between europe and the west coast start ?

TWs inaugural non-stop SFO-LHR flight using a L1649A was in October 1957. The flight duration was a whole day (24 hours) less around 40 minutes.
 
RC135U
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:55 am

Quoting WesternA318 (Reply 6):
TWA did LAX/SFO-LHR/CDG flights with Connies, and KLM from what Iremember did with DC-8's.

TWA started LAX-London service on September 29, 1957 with their new 1649A Connies - called "Starliners". Transit time was something like 23 hours.
 
Gemuser
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:57 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 5):
That must have been a long interesting flight, was this VC10s ?

I saw a picture of a Comet in Hawaii once but I thought it was just a promo not a viable route.

Yes was usually a VC/SVC10, could have been a Comet eairler I suppose but I have no info on that.

It was an intersting route, particully when you consider that there was another VC/SVC10 that went LHR-Europe-Middle East-India-SIN-SYD-AKL-NAN!

Gemuser
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StarGoldLHR
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:59 am

so 24 hours on a Constellation from LAX-LHR in the 1950's surely this didnt last when the 707 came around, wouldnt it have been faster to fly 1 stop on two 707's/DC8's ?

I'm trying to understand the history of "true" long haul flights in the jet age and how they came to be ?

So BOAC flew via the US to Australia ? I would have thought they would have gone down under via Asia with better pickup/drop off potential and leave higher demand flights to the US as dedicated flights ?
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
RC135U
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:25 am

VV701 you just beat me to it. BTW, my data indicated it was from LAX, but was it indeed SFO?

Best
 
N1120A
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:32 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Thread starter):
Was a 707 variant capable or was it the 747-100 or even the 747-400 in the 1990's before Europe and LA/SFO/SEA were connected direct from europe ?

It most definately wasn't the 744, which BTW came out in January 1989. The 707, DC-8 and 741 were all capable of making the non-stop, as were later versions of piston aircraft that could do it but very slowly.

Quoting San747 (Reply 4):
I think the 747-100 brought the advent of nonstop LAX/SFO/SEA-LHR/FRA/CDG/ORY services...

Nope, the 707 and DC-8 were already capable of that. The 747 brought the ability to do it with a fraction of the CASM

Quoting Coronado990 (Reply 7):
As far as LAX goes I believe LH started around 1969 with a 707-430 and stopped at AMS...

Which still qualifies as non-stop from Europe to the West Coast

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11):
So BOAC flew via the US to Australia ? I would have thought they would have gone down under via Asia with better pickup/drop off potential and leave higher demand flights to the US as dedicated flights ?

The political and infrastructure climate in those days dictated that it was a better idea to use US points to make stops
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Gemuser
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:32 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11):So BOAC flew via the US to Australia ? I would have thought they would have gone down under via Asia with better pickup/drop off potential and leave higher demand flights to the US as dedicated flights ?
The political and infrastructure climate in those days dictated that it was a better idea to use US points to make stops

BA was a true "round the world" airline in the 1960s, 70s and early80s.

It flew to Oz via the Middle East and India, via the US, via HKG and via ANC & TYO (with a connection)

Flights to Oz/HKG/TYO usually had one stop in Europe, one in the Middle East, one in India (Raj definision) then BKK to HKG to TYO or SIN/Malaya to SYD/MEL via PER/DRW.

They also flew LHR-ANC-TYO-HKG and HKG-TYO-HNL-SFO (cant remember if it went anywhere from their). Remember this was BEFORE BII.

Gemuser
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ZKNBX
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:59 pm

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 5):
(It was part of their South Pacific service which went LHR-JFK-LAX-HNL-NAN-SYD-MEL)

WAS being the key point here, as BA Pacific / Australasia service was long gone by the mid 1970s in favour of flights via India and SE Asia
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:14 pm

Quoting RC135U (Reply 9):
TWA started LAX-London service on September 29, 1957 with their new 1649A Connies - called "Starliners". Transit time was something like 23 hours.

...assuming conditions allowed for the SFO-Paris and LAX-LHR legs of TWA's L1649A U.S. West Coast-Europe services to be operated non-stop on a given day, as advertised. Timetables showing these flights as non-stops also carried a disclaimer "A fuel stop(s) may be necessary." When such was the case, transit time was even longer. Nonetheless, the capability of U.S. West Coast to Europe non-stop service in under 24 hours was a very impressive feat in its day. Although, iirc, TWA's L1649As were capable of flying LAX/SFO-Europe non-stop only when operating at reduced payload, even in ideal weather conditons.

Does anyone have reasonably reliable data as to how consistently (or inconsistently) TWA was able to actually operate LAX/SFO-Europe non-stop as scheduled, sans fuel stop(s), with their L1649 Starliners?
 
Gemuser
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:49 pm

Quoting ZKNBX (Reply 15):
WAS being the key point here, as BA Pacific / Australasia service was long gone by the mid 1970s in favour of flights via India and SE Asia

A bit later than that. They were definately operating in 1978 and IRCC into the early 80"s.

Gemuser
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StarGoldLHR
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:24 pm

Quoting Tango-Bravo (Reply 16):
Does anyone have reasonably reliable data as to how consistently (or inconsistently) TWA was able to actually operate LAX/SFO-Europe non-stop as scheduled, sans fuel stop(s), with their L1649 Starliners

When did these turn over the route.

I reach up on the 707/dc8 and found they had fuel ranges of aboiut 3800 / 4500 miles.

SFO/LAX is 5500/5600 miles... so the 707's must have refueled somewhere ? Or am I missing something ?
So far in 2008 45 flights and Gold already. JFK, IAD, LGA, SIN, HKG, NRT, AKL, PPT, LAX still to book ! Home Airport LCY
 
N1120A
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:08 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 14):
They also flew LHR-ANC-TYO-HKG and HKG-TYO-HNL-SFO (cant remember if it went anywhere from their).

The ANC stops were because overflying the USSR without a stop in Moscow was a no no. Hence, BA had to go the long way around.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 18):
I reach up on the 707/dc8 and found they had fuel ranges of aboiut 3800 / 4500 miles.

SFO/LAX is 5500/5600 miles... so the 707's must have refueled somewhere ? Or am I missing something ?

You are missing that later versions had greater range. You may also be mistaking nautical miles for statute miles
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flydreamliner
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:00 am

Bear in mind that the DC-10-30 and DC-10-40 had the range to make this flight in the 70s as well. I don't know of anyone who used them for this, but the A/C were there.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
N174UA
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 20):
Bear in mind that the DC-10-30 and DC-10-40 had the range to make this flight in the 70s as well. I don't know of anyone who used them for this, but the A/C were there.

 checkmark  Flew British Caledonian (remember them?) on a DC-10-30 nonstop LAX-LGW-LAX in August 1982.
 
lredlefsen
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:02 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 13):
the 707 and DC-8 were already capable of that.

The 707 and DC-8 could do SFO-LHR *NON*stop, i.e. without landing to refuel?

I'm not talking about "direct" flights, where the plane might land, and pax might even change planes, but the flight number stays the same...
 
MalpensaSFO
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 20):
Bear in mind that the DC-10-30 and DC-10-40 had the range to make this flight in the 70s as well. I don't know of anyone who used them for this, but the A/C were there.

A310
SFO-BGR-ZRH: BalAir

DC8
OAK-BGR-ORY : Minerve
LAX-BGR-ORY : Minerve

DC10
SAN-LAX-LGW : BCal
LAX-LGW : Laker Airways
LAX-MAN : British Airtours
SFO-CDG : Air France/UTA
SFO-ORY : Air Tours
LAX-SVO : TransAero
LAX-ZRH : BalAir
LAX-LGW : American Airlines
LAX-GVA-ZRH: SwissAir
LAX-CPH : LAX-CPH
LAX-ORY : AOM
LAX-ORY : Air Liberte

L1011
SFO-DUS : LTU
SFO-FRA : Delta Airlines
SFO-FRA : RyanAir International
LAX-FRA : Delta Airlines

IL62
SFO-SEA-ANC-SVO : Aeroflot
SFO-SEA-ANC-Novobrisk: Aeroflot
TO FLY IS TO SERVE
 
sk601
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:15 am

I don't know about west coast to Europe, but KLM's first transatlantic service was on May, 21st, 1946 from AMS-NYC with a DC4, carrying 44 passengers. Travel time 21 (!) hrs. Air France started just a month later PAR-NYC on June, 24th. 1946 also with a DC4.

First longhaul route for KL was 12 Sept. 1929 AMS- Batavia (Indonesia)
First transatlantic route for KL was on 14th Feb 1946 from AMS to PBM and CUR. Some other facts:
7 Oct. 1947 first AMS-JNB
4 Dec. 1951 first AMS-MNL-TYO
7 Dec. 1951 first AMS-SYD
23 May 1957 first KL non-stop LAX-PAR (!!) with DC7C (not a scheduled flight)

[Edited 2006-07-29 21:19:20]
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 4:42 am

When SAS inauguarted Polar flights CPH-LAX in 1954 were they non-stop?
 
baw716
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 5:07 am

SK operated CPH-LAX in 1954 via Sondre Stromfjord with a DC-6.
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
timz
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:24 am

Just talking about nonstops for a minute--

Like he said, TW 1649 schedules said maybe a fuel stop; as I recall the PA DC-7C schedules didn't mention the possible fuel stop but they usually (maybe always) did stop. Frobisher would be the likely place.

Nobody else ever scheduled Europe-West Coast prop nonstops.

PA and BA were known to do LAX-LHR nonstop with 707-320s and -420s; dunno how often. One of the magazines even mentioned a PA westbound nonstop 707-320 on one occasion when the headwind averaged zero. Once they got -320Bs, nonstops became common.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:29 am

Quoting Baw716 (Reply 26):
SK operated CPH-LAX in 1954 via Sondre Stromfjord with a DC-6.

Plus an additional technical/fuel stop, typically(?) at YWG (at least on many, if not most/all CPH-LAX flights opb DC-6B equipment)



Quoting SK601 (Reply 24):
I don't know about west coast to Europe, but KLM's first transatlantic service was on May, 21st, 1946 from AMS-NYC with a DC4, carrying 44 passengers. Travel time 21 (!)

Even Western Europe-NYC service included at least one if not two refueling stops until the advent of later generation propliners, namely DC-7C, the L-1049G and L-1649A "Connies" and the Bristol Britannia. Before these types were put into service, regularly scheduled everyday flights across the North Atlantic, especially westbound, regularly made one (or more) refueling stop(s) at places like Gander or Goose Bay, Shannon, and/or the aforementioned Sondre Stromfjord.
 
timz
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:32 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Thread starter):
Before direct flights to europe commenced how did european airlines reach LA and SFO ?

Did BA/AF/LH etc stopover in the US / Canada somewhere then continue to the west coast or was it all handled by partner airlines ?

Like he said SK started scheduled flying to the West Coast in 1954; BOAC started LHR-IDL-SFO in 1957 or 1958. No other European airline scheduled props to the West Coast.

"Partner airlines" didn't exist then the way they do now.
 
timz
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:35 am

As for NY-Europe-- many airline timetables showed nonstops eastward, starting with the Constellation 749. How often they lived up to it we don't know, but we know they managed it now and then.
 
OB1783P
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:37 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 11):
I'm trying to understand the history of "true" long haul flights in the jet age and how they came to be ?

You should look for a book called SKYLINERS by George Hamlin (and its 2 sequels). Wonderful picture books with interesting detail, about the late piston to early widebody age. Interesting stories about long long haul, both nonstop, and incredible multi stop.
I've flown thousands of miles and I can tell you it's a lot safer than crossing the street!
 
stirling
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:58 am

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 18):
SFO/LAX is 5500/5600 miles

Statute Miles.
Big difference from Nautical miles.

Quoting StarGoldLHR (Reply 18):
707/dc8 and found they had fuel ranges of aboiut 3800 / 4500 miles

LHR-SFO is 4660nm

The 707-320C had a range of 6465nm, at a MGTOW of 279,000lbs. (zero weight was 230,000lbs)

The MGTOW of the 707-320C was 333,600lbs. At this weight, the max range was in the neighborhood of 2700nm.

At around 310,000lbs, the 707-320C was more than capable of making it nonstop from western Europe to the west coast of the U.S..

The -420 which BOAC operated did not have as long of legs as the -320C, it's max fuel range was 5850nm, which LHR-SFO still falls comfortably within.

But the real long-range champion of the era belonged to the DC-8 family, especially the -60 series.

The long -61 maxed out at 5730nm.
The short -62 maxed out at 7300nm.
The long -63, maxed out at 6680nm.

Airlines that ordered the super big, super long range -63 included:

Air Canada
Air Congo
Air Afrique
Airlift
American Flyers
Atlantis
Capitol Airways
Canadian Pacific
Eastern Airlines
Flying Tiger
Iberia
KLM
Overseas National
Seaboard World
SAS
Trans International
Viasa
World Airways
Total of 107 delivered.

If you are looking at the list and wondering why it was ordered by so many US Charter carriers, remember the time when the aircraft was introduced.
Vietnam.
All of these carriers had contracts with the US Government to shuttle troops back and forth from Southeast Asia and the US.
This aircraft gave the first opportunity to make the trip more or less nonstop.
TravisAFB-ClarkAFB was around 6000nm.

As for the Longest range aircraft of the era, a good 39 feet shorter than the -61 and -63 versions, the -62 was not as popular as one would think, only 67 versions were made.

Original operators include:
Alitalia
Braniff
Finnair
Japan Air Lines
SAS
Swissair
UTA
United

The -50 series was no slouch either, max fuel range of the -53 was 6000nm.
Max payload was still good at 5375nm, and still good enough for the original topic of this thread, more than enough juice to get it from Europe to the West Coast.
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timz
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:04 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 32):
The 707-320C had a range of 6465nm, at a MGTOW of 279,000lbs.

Full tanks, zero payload, you mean?

By the way-- anybody know what the nonstop airliner distance record was, as of 1962? (A one-time flight, not scheduled.)
 
roseflyer
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:25 am

SEA-CPH 1966 DC-8

In 1966 Seattle got nonstop service to Copenhagen Denmark on Scandinavian Airlines using a DC-8 on a polar route. This was the first nonstop service to Europe from Seattle. Seattle is also about 500 miles closer to Europe than San Francisco or Los Angeles. Seattle is in a unique position because it is equal distance from Tokyo and London. Service to Tokyo started in 1959 on Japan Air Lines.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
juventus
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:45 am

Its a shame that San Diego has no direct flights to Europe, and SEA gets very limited 'direct' European service.
 
LPLAspotter
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 7:56 am

When I was 3 months old (1966)I took my first flight nonstop TWA 707 from ORY to SFO. My mom said she'd never forget having me sit on her lap kicking her the whole 12 hours.

LPLAspotter
Nuke the Gay Wales for Christ
 
RayPettit
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:02 am

Westbound, tech stops were often made at Winipeg or Spokane, depending on the airline. In later years, such stops were dependent on the wind conditions en route.
 
timz
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BA

Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:06 am

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 17):
They [BA transpacific flights] were definately operating in 1978 and IRCC into the early 80"s.

Maybe so, but the 8/76 and 7/77 ABCs show no BA transpacific flights.
 
RC135U
Posts: 278
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:10 am

Quoting Stirling (Reply 32):
All of these carriers had contracts with the US Government to shuttle troops back and forth from Southeast Asia and the US.
This aircraft gave the first opportunity to make the trip more or less nonstop.
TravisAFB-ClarkAFB was around 6000nm.

Not sure they ever did it nonstop. I took a MAC charter on the way to Okinawa. Trans International DC-8-63 with the full coach 259 seat configuration. Travis AFB-Hickam AFB-Anderson AFB-Clark AB. That stretch from Hawaii to Guam gave me some perspective on the size of the Pacific, something like 7.25 hours, roughly the same time it took me to go LHR-JFK about a year later.
 
vv701
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:18 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 20):
Bear in mind that the DC-10-30 and DC-10-40 had the range to make this flight in the 70s as well. I don't know of anyone who used them for this, but the A/C were there.

BA used NZ DC-10 30s on the LAX route from May 1975 to April 1979. This came about because BA's 747s were too big at that time and their L-1011s did not have the required range. The innovative and unusual leasing arrangement worked like this:

NZ would fly a DC-10 on the AUK-LAX route.

When it arrived at LAX it was leased to BA. It was then flown in full NZ livery but with a BA flight and cabin crew on the LAX-LHR route.

Meanwhile a second NZ DC-10 was being flown by BA on the LHR-LAX route. On arrival it was transferred back to NZ and flown to AUK.

In 1978 there was still a year of this arrangement to run. However BA had grown traffic on the LAX-LHR route to the point where they substituted a 747. But the NZ DC-10s were used on the LHR-MIA route (5 times weekly) and the LHR-YMX route (three times weekly). A two times weekly service on the LHR-LAX route was maintained. At MIA, YMX and LAX the aircraft were transferred back to NZ.

By this point BA was leasing a quarter of the NZ DC-10 fleet at any one time.

It was soon after this arrangement stopped in April 79 that there was the tragic accident when one of the aircraft involved, ZK-NZP, crashed into Mt Erebus in Antarctica on a tourist flight in November of the same year
 
Gemuser
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:36 am

Quoting SK601 (Reply 24):
First longhaul route for KL was 12 Sept. 1929 AMS- Batavia (Indonesia)
First transatlantic route for KL was on 14th Feb 1946 from AMS to PBM and CUR. Some other facts:
7 Dec. 1951 first AMS-SYD

Actually this was NOT KLMs first service to SYD. It was in fact the resumption of services after World War II. KLM started services to SYD in 1934 and it was an extention of the AMS-Batavia route mentioned above. It operated until the Japanesse occupation of the Dutch East Indies in the early 1940s

Gemuser
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474218
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:36 pm

Quoting RC135U (Reply 39):
Quoting Stirling (Reply 32):
All of these carriers had contracts with the US Government to shuttle troops back and forth from Southeast Asia and the US.
This aircraft gave the first opportunity to make the trip more or less nonstop.
TravisAFB-ClarkAFB was around 6000nm.

Not sure they ever did it nonstop. I took a MAC charter on the way to Okinawa. Trans International DC-8-63 with the full coach 259 seat configuration. Travis AFB-Hickam AFB-Anderson AFB-Clark AB. That stretch from Hawaii to Guam gave me some perspective on the size of the Pacific, something like 7.25 hours, roughly the same time it took me to go LHR-JFK about a year later.


In 1969 I did a non-stop Okinawa (Kadena AFB) to Travis AFB then a 30 minute hop to Beale AFB in a KC-135Q. 16 hours in a web seat, not first class but it got me home. To get to Kadena we did Beale - Hickham AFB - Kadena total flight time almost 20 hours. There is a lot of water between Hawaii and Okinawa.

And for the original question. I know LTU started DUS-SFO-LAX flights in 1980 using L-1011-500's. An LTU crew would do the DUS-SFO leg and a Lockheed crew did the SFO-LAX. The next day the Lockheed crew took to plane back to SFO where the LTU crew took it back to DUS.

[Edited 2006-07-30 05:43:04]

[Edited 2006-07-30 05:44:04]
 
rongotai
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:19 pm

In 1969 I flew on a BA 707 NAN-HNL-SFO-JFK-LHR, returning the same route on a QF 707. The BA flight had a scheduled stop for 8 hours at SFO and all through passengers were put up in a motel, this for crew scheduling reasons.
 
timz
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting Timz (Reply 27):
Nobody else ever scheduled Europe-West Coast prop nonstops

Forgot that Vancouver is on the Coast-- and Canadian Pacific probably did YVR-AMS nonstop now and then with their Britannia. Never westbound, though?
 
RC135U
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 42):
In 1969 I did a non-stop Okinawa (Kadena AFB) to Travis AFB then a 30 minute hop to Beale AFB in a KC-135Q. 16 hours in a web seat, not first class but it got me home. To get to Kadena we did Beale - Hickham AFB - Kadena total flight time almost 20 hours. There is a lot of water between Hawaii and Okinawa.

That's why we always preferred deploying in our own RC's where we could just
wear our flight suits and not get stuck in the sling seats/web seats. Tried to stay away from MAC 'cause they insisted on the class A's and their C-141's were slow, cold and noisy. I guess SAC insisted those not on flying status had to wear class A's on their birds too, or no?
 
474218
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:08 am

Quoting RC135U (Reply 45):
That's why we always preferred deploying in our own RC's where we could just
wear our flight suits and not get stuck in the sling seats/web seats. Tried to stay away from MAC 'cause they insisted on the class A's and their C-141's were slow, cold and noisy. I guess SAC insisted those not on flying status had to wear class A's on their birds too, or no?

I never had a choice who I was going to fly with. Every, TDY I went on we just loaded up in a good old KC-135 and off were went. I did get a ride on a C-141 from McCoy AFB to Beale AFB in fatigues, since I had to help load it prior to takeoff. I don't know anything about class A's, I had mine on exactly four times the entire time I was in the USAF and only twice after basic training. We wore fatigues or civilian clothes.
 
RC135U
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:22 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 46):
Every, TDY I went on we just loaded up in a good old KC-135 and off were went.

Being out of Beale, did you work with the Habu? This'll end up on the military forum pretty soon!

[Edited 2006-07-30 21:24:19]
 
bnamaxx
Posts: 231
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RE: Delta & LAX: Back To The Future

Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:50 am

Quoting Juventus (Reply 35):
Its a shame that San Diego has no direct flights to Europe, and SEA gets very limited 'direct' European service.

BA used to serve SAN using a 744 with various efforts at one time or another to LHR - nonstop, via PHX, and I beleive via LAX as well.

Kinda sorta on the topic, but in talking about London to Australia, I still think QF's SYD-NAN-PPT-ACA-MEX-NAS-BDA-LHR on a 707 had to be one of the best ways to get from one place to the other.
 
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solnabo
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RE: US West Coast To Europe Non-Stop

Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:25 am

SK fleet never had Connie´s.

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