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RobK
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GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:03 pm

GOLs first short field 737-800 received certification on Thursday and was due to delivery Friday to GOL as PR-GTA. Has anyone seen it depart/arrive?

 confused 

R
 
jrosa
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:05 am

According to what I heard, PR-GTA will arrive in CNF tomorrow, July 31st, Monday.
 
PPVRA
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:28 am

Will it operate at SDU? It would be the largest aircraft at SDU  eyepopping 

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LipeGIG
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:40 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 2):
Will it operate at SDU? It would be the largest aircraft at SDU

Not now. This 738 (and some other coming on the next months) will be able to depart/land at airports like SDU (know on Gol as SFP , Short Field Performance). The certification for SDU could take more 1 to 2 months as per ANAC sources, during this GTA will be used probably on GIG-GRU-EZE-SCL.

It departed from BFI and after a technical stop at AUA and them a non stop to CNF where it arrived about 30 minutes ago!

A picture probably will be available very soon

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
jrosa
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 3):
The certification for SDU could take more 1 to 2 months as per ANAC sources, during this GTA will be used probably on GIG-GRU-EZE-SCL.

Gol is anxiously waiting for this plane to start the flights to SCL, because it has an extended oxygen supply (I believe it is an O2 generator) for the passengers (22 minutes), which is necessary to cross the Andes.

As Felipe mentioned, the SDU flights will start in 1 or 2 months from now due to ANAC certification procedures and to the need of more 738SFP frames to serve SCL and the SDU-CGH shuttle service.

It is good to mention that CCS (Maiquetia) is in Gol's pipeline to start very soon, the pilots are already certified (Airline Traffic Control and local operational procedures) it is just missing a few frames to start the route.
 
LipeGIG
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:37 am

Delivered and some interesting info. PR-GTA become Gol's flagship !

Look to the pictures from Renato Viani while runing a CGH-FLN regular flight
just 30 minutes ago:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/renatoviani/CR4.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/renatoviani/CR2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v447/renatoviani/CR3.jpg

Note: "Time das Aguias" in english means "Eagles Team"

Congratulatios Gol and thanks for my friend and spotter Renato !

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
PPVRA
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:33 am

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 5):
Look to the pictures from Renato Viani while runing a CGH-FLN regular flight
just 30 minutes ago:

EIS today?? Arrived today and already flying pax commercially? Wow. Did they carry pax between CNF and CGH?

Thanks for the info, Felipe!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
ghost77
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:13 am

Nice frame! Congrats G3 for your new Flagship!

ghooost77 APM
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
thering
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:05 am

Nice!
This bird will surely fly CGH-SDU soon...
Althought, GOL already used 737-800s on CGH/SDU flights with 130 or 140 pax limit I think...
146 319 320 321 332 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 742 743 744 762 763 772 773 CRJ ER4 100 F50 F27 M11 D10
 
jrosa
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:24 pm

Does someone know if there are any visual differences between an ordinary B738 and a B738SFP?
 
PPVRA
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:45 am

Quoting Jrosa (Reply 9):


Does someone know if there are any visual differences between an ordinary B738 and a B738SFP?



Quote:
The 737 design enhancements allow operators to fly increased payload in and out of airports with runways less than 5,000 feet long. The design enhancements include a two-position tail skid that enables reduced approach speeds, sealed leading-edge slats that provide increased lift during takeoff, and increased flight spoiler deflection on the ground that improves takeoff and landing performance.

From this Boeing article:

http://www.defesanet.com.br/aviacao/gol_4.htm

Anyone know what a "two-position tail skid" is?

Cheers!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
baron95
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:06 pm

Boy, I know that SDU is at sea level and that there are no obstructions in the initial climb segment, but a 738 is a pretty big bird to operate out of a 4300 feet runway, particularly since temperatures are often above 35C and at times above 40C.

What passanger load can this plane take on a 40C degree day out of SDU assuming enough fuel to get to CGH? Can it take a full load?
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
PPVRA
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:12 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 11):
What passanger load can this plane take on a 40C degree day out of SDU assuming enough fuel to get to CGH? Can it take a full load?

You made me wonder about one thing. If GTA is to operate CGH-SDU and is to have reduced take-off/landing distances, why are they fitted with winglets? They weigh extra, and are supposedly to help on longer flights and during cruise, not climb. So either the SFP is fine at SDU and the extra weight of the winglets is not a problem, or they are gonna fly GTA somewhere else- somewhere further away. And possibly to a high altitude airport (MEX, LIM, BOG?) that could benefit from these upgrades?

. . . or am I missing something?

Cheers!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
baron95
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:24 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
why are they fitted with winglets?

Good question. My take is every 73G/738/739 will be leaving the factory with winglets from now on. The weight penalty is modest and it adds tremendously to the resale value of the plane. Also, as you imply, GOL probably wants the flexibility to fly it on longer routes.

Think about this. SDU-CGH shuttle during the week. GIG-REC or GIG-EZE on weekends. That would get great utilization out of the aircraft since the SDU-CGH shuttle has much lower frequencies on weekends.

Cheers.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
PPVRA
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:23 am

Question answered, see reply 22 and onwards here:
Winglets Question (by Tonytifao Jul 20 2006 in Tech Ops)

Thanks for th reply, Baron.

Cheers
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
jrosa
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:40 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 12):
If GTA is to operate CGH-SDU and is to have reduced take-off/landing distances, why are they fitted with winglets?

GTA is the first delivery of Gol's 101 B738SFP frames order (options included). This aircraft will be the workhorse of Gol and will fly not only SDU-CGH-SDU but also all the other routes of Gol's network. Remember that the SFP also has a higher MTOW.
 
baron95
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:07 am

Quoting Jrosa (Reply 15):
GTA is the first delivery of Gol's 101 B738SFP frames order

Jrosa do you know what the size of the GOL fleet will be after all the aircraft currently on firm ordered are delivered minus the planned retirements? Is it about 150 planes? If so that would be twice the RG fleet size pre-bankruptcy - incredible.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
LipeGIG
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:15 am

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 16):
Jrosa do you know what the size of the GOL fleet will be after all the aircraft currently on firm ordered are delivered minus the planned retirements? Is it about 150 planes? If so that would be twice the RG fleet size pre-bankruptcy - incredible.

Around 102 planes, it's their plan for 2011. But it will probably change again and again, and with the incentive provided by the government yesterday (no income tax on leasing) we could really expect more planes!

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
baron95
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:23 pm

Quoting LipeGIG (Reply 17):
But it will probably change again and again, and with the incentive provided by the government yesterday (no income tax on leasing)

Does JJ and G3 lease all their planes like RG? Will they all be able to take advantage of the tax break?

And do you mean sales/use tax (I believe it is called ICMS in Brazil)? Or do you actually mean income tax (imposto de renda)?

Thanks.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
A342
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:32 pm

Why wasn't/isn't the SDU runway lenghtened ?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
jrosa
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:55 pm

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 18):
Does JJ and G3 lease all their planes like RG? Will they all be able to take advantage of the tax break?

G3 used to lease its planes, but it posted a firm+options order with Boeing for the above referred 101 B738SFP. I believe, its not confirmed by G3, that by 2010 it will have a mix of owned and leased aircraft, but the owned aircraft will be a majority.

JJ by its turn did a move a couple of years ago aiming to improve its financial statements, it converted some A320 and A330 lease with option to buy at the end of the agreement to simple lease agreements without the option to buy the plane, with it JJ was able to change the way it accrued those lease payments making them expenses instead of investments.

Now that JJ is in much better shape (from a financial and share price stand point) it is also acquiring aircraft, remember its last Airbus order for 37 aircraft one or two months ago.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 18):
And do you mean sales/use tax (I believe it is called ICMS in Brazil)? Or do you actually mean income tax (imposto de renda)?

The tax relief is relating to the income tax (imposto de renda), making a long story short, since 2003 the Brazilian IRS considered that aircraft lease payments were income generated in Brazil for the foreign lessors, and therefore, the lessors should pay 15% of the lease installment as income tax, but Brazilian law transferred to the Brazilian lessee the tax responsibility for the payment. The lessors understood, correctly by the way, that this income tax was an unilateral act of the Brazilian Government, and all lessors demanded a gross up calculation to transfer this cost to the Brazilian lessee, who had to bear this cost.

With this tax relief, it is a temporary one until 2013 if I recall correctly, the Brazilian lessees will not have to bear this 15% gross up increase in the lease installment.

Regarding the sales/use tax (ICMS the Brazilian VAT, but really worst) the Brazilian airlines are still in talks with the state governments (this is a state tax in Brazil) in order to obtain a relief granted by law. However, there are several judicial decisions already granting this ICMS tax relief on aircraft acquisition to the Brazilian airlines.

I sincerely apologise if this explanation sounds crazy or too complicated to understand, but the Brazilian tax system is not a rational and intelligent one, it is very complicated and it has reflects in the three levels of the federation.
 
mika
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:17 am

That´s one sweet looking craft i gotta say!  cool 
 
jrosa
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 19):
Why wasn't/isn't the SDU runway lenghtened ?

SDU is a domestic/regional airport and there is no need for a runway capable of receiving a widebody for instance, there are also some maritime navigation issues because SDU is in the middle of the entrance to Rio de Janeiro harbor, to a Marina and really, really close to the ferry (Rio de Janeiro - Niteroi) station. Also, there are some ecologic issues around (Guanabara bay).
 
calags
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:47 am

If the 737-800SFP can operate in Santos Dumont will it be able to do the same in London City airport? I did a search and the two fields are almost the same length with SDU at 1,323 meters and LCY at 1,319.

Are those 4 meters significant or are there other factors that preclude the 738SFP from flying in and out of LCY?

Thanks.
 
PPVRA
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:04 am

Quoting Calags (Reply 23):

Are those 4 meters significant or are there other factors that preclude the 738SFP from flying in and out of LCY?

Steep approach is a big issue at LCY (due to being in the middle of the city and noise regulation, AFAIK), SDU is a normal approach as far as I can tell.

Otherwise, LCY's cooler temperature should be a plus for ops.

Cheers!
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
baron95
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting Calags (Reply 23):
Are those 4 meters significant or are there other factors that preclude the 738SFP from flying in and out of LCY?

Both are at similar altitudes. Average temperatures at SDU are higher. However SDU has no obstructions in the initial climb segment - it is over water at both ends. The same is not true at LCY.

Quoting A342 (Reply 19):
Why wasn't/isn't the SDU runway lenghtened ?

I think you can add a 500 foot extension on a pier in the direction of the sugar loaf mountain like it is done at LGA - that would take care of the ecological concerns and go a long way to enable more normal operations.
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
calags
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:39 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 24):
Steep approach is a big issue at LCY (due to being in the middle of the city and noise regulation, AFAIK), SDU is a normal approach as far as I can tell.

Thanks, that clears things up for me. I read somewhere that the A318 has been certified (or is being certified) for LCY. Does it seem likely that Boeing would try to do the same with an SFP version of one of the 737 series? The A318 is in the smaller end of the A320 family and the 738 is in the opposite side of the 737 family but could Boeing position the 73G or 736 for LCY?
 
baron95
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:05 am

I believe that to fly at LCY would require a 5 degree approach path - I'm not sure if the 737 has been certified to do that. I don't think (but I may be wrong) that that kind of steep approach can be done based on the airline operating procedures alone - I think it needs to be certified by the mannufacturer (Boeing).
Killer Fleet: E190, 737-900ER, 777-300ER
 
PPVRA
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:27 am

Quoting Calags (Reply 26):
Thanks, that clears things up for me. I read somewhere that the A318 has been certified (or is being certified) for LCY. Does it seem likely that Boeing would try to do the same with an SFP version of one of the 737 series? The A318 is in the smaller end of the A320 family and the 738 is in the opposite side of the 737 family but could Boeing position the 73G or 736 for LCY?

Well, the 736 hasn't sold well and it probably isn't worth putting more money into it. Airbus did probably because of AF and their 13X A318 fleet or to attract new customers.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 27):
I believe that to fly at LCY would require a 5 degree approach path

5.5 degrees.

Quoting Baron95 (Reply 25):
Quoting A342 (Reply 19):
Why wasn't/isn't the SDU runway lenghtened ?

I think you can add a 500 foot extension on a pier in the direction of the sugar loaf mountain like it is done at LGA - that would take care of the ecological concerns and go a long way to enable more normal operations.

There is a marina to the right of that and you would be severely complicating and endangering maritime navigation in that area (which would be right in front of the beach, too- nice views, but not gonna happen).

Here's a pic:



Cheers

[Edited 2006-08-06 00:29:15]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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RobK
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:17 pm

Okay, who has info on PR-GTB then?! I don't see it at PAE anymore so I'm assuming it's recently delivered. Does anyone have the details please - callsign, route with ATDs and selcal code please?

PR-GTC made its first flight on 11 August, just for info.

 spin 

R
 
hardiwv
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 4:57 pm

Very interesting discussion. Again, congratulations G3 for breaking this ground yet again! Well done and the bird looks great.

Was the inaugural flight performed on the CGH-FLN route? Note that FLN airport resembles somehow SDU!

Rgs,
 
LipeGIG
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Sun Aug 20, 2006 10:49 pm

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 30):
Was the inaugural flight performed on the CGH-FLN route? Note that FLN airport resembles somehow SDU!

Yes Hardi, with more than 160 pax on board.
Yesterday, PR-GTA made a lot of procedures at SDU during the afternoon including several landings and departures full of gas. All tests were performed as expected, very successfully! It's not confirmed but it will do the same next week including landing/departure with wet runway. Now we can expect for the next weeks the final certification of the 737-800 SFP to run shuttle service Rio-Sao Paulo flights.

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !
 
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RobK
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Mon Aug 28, 2006 1:52 pm

Quoting RobK (Reply 29):
Okay, who has info on PR-GTB then?! I don't see it at PAE anymore so I'm assuming it's recently delivered. Does anyone have the details please - callsign, route with ATDs and selcal code please?

No-one has any info then? Apparently flew BFI-Aruba-Belo Horizonte 19-20 August, but no further info  Sad.

R
 
LipeGIG
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RE: GOL - Has The Short Field B738 PR-GTA Arrived?

Mon Aug 28, 2006 9:57 pm

Quoting RobK (Reply 32):
No-one has any info then? Apparently flew BFI-Aruba-Belo Horizonte 19-20 August, but no further info

Received at CNF on August 20. After, added to the network at GIG replacing the oldest 733, the first aircraft to be returned by Gol (end of lease agreement).

Gol has more 5 aircrafts to be received during september:
PR-GTC 34277 B737-800 04/9/2006 Boeing
PR-GTD 34653 B737-800 14/9/2006 Boeing
PR-GIL 30635 B737-700 16/9/2006 ILFC ex-PR-SAF...
PR-GTE 34278 B737-800 23/9/2006 Boeing
PR-GTF 34279 B737-800 30/9/2006 Boeing

Felipe
New York + Rio de Janeiro = One of the best combinations !