Spruit
Topic Author
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Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:49 am

Hi folks,

My question is, does being a pilot, airline or private, make you a better or a worse passenger?

As a private pilot, do you pick up on other pilots mistakes easily?

Commercial pilots, do you notice when in the cabin, mistakes of your colleagues?

Thanks in advance for your answers?

Spru!
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Cadet57
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:54 am

I guess it'd make them more aware of mistakes and operations compared to say, an a.netter oraverage pax. I sat next to a PPL pilot yesterday on AUA-CLT and he and I discussed how the landing was a bit fast for a wet runway. We were in an A319 on 36L and we were fast and i could have sworn I felt the tires start to slip a bit...
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
barney captain
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:04 am

[quote=Cadet57,reply=1]how the landing was a bit fast for a wet runway. [/quote

Virtually impossible to determine such a thing from the passenger cabin. I'm sure it made him appear knowledgeable, but he (or she) would have no way of determining that the approach/landing were "a bit fast".

I commute every week, and sure, you might notice things that are done that you might have done differently. This typically revolves around "technique" and being smooth as opposed to things more critical. No different than riding in someones car and noticing hard braking or cornering.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Cadet57
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:07 am

Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 2):
Virtually impossible to determine such a thing from the passenger cabin.

Why not? its easy to tell a great landing from a shit one, and plus the fact that when we were slowing down I was really lurched foward, something that rarely happens when I fly.
Doors open, right hand side, next stop is Springfield.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 1):
how the landing was a bit fast for a wet runway

As said above, this is not possibly known from the back. You have to consider in winds, and many other factors which cannot be determined from the back without any raw data.

A couple of weeks ago I was in the back of a Cessna 172 for the first time since I was a kid, and it was a very bad experience. I was there so that an older gentleman could do a full load check on a 172. I didn't know the guy, but he was with an instructor at the front. In the two circuits that we did, the instructor had to take control 4 times, and from the back I could see things developing which somehow were completely unapparent to the pilot. It was a very helpless feeling, and I was extremely glad to be on the ground after it all. I was also apologized to for the flight, even the instructor said he hadn't been that nervous in a long time.

In a somewhat related note, there is a famous race car driver (forget who now) who is a very nervous flyer. He is used to driving extremely fast cars on tight circuits, but being in an aircraft with no control over the situation makes him quite nervous.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
Spruit
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:13 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 3):
Why not? its easy to tell a great landing from a **** one

Okay, so landing, or the part on the runway with no aerodynamic forces acting on the control surfaces is really akin to driving a very speedy car! (Waiting for the flames on that comment)

But what I'm more interested in is the application of power on the approach as opposed to a smooth approach with good glide slope hold?

Interesting take off's from a Pilot-Passenger perspective!

How much of civil aviation flight is now actually hand flown?
E=Mc2
 
Cadet57
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:18 am

Quoting Spruit (Reply 5):
How much of civil aviation flight is now actually hand flown?

Id say the first 20 mins and last 20 mins nowadays.
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Goldenshield
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:30 am

Quoting Spruit (Reply 5):
How much of civil aviation flight is now actually hand flown?

It depends on the airports, stage length, altitude, and capability of the aircraft at the time.

—If the autopilot is deferred, the airline is not going to pull the plane due to lazy pilots.
—If the flight is to be operated at an altitude low enough to permit manual operation, then many pilots would take that advantage to work on their hand-flying skills for the entire flight.
—If the flight is short enough to not need the autopilot, then it's up to the pilot to not use it.
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SJCRRPAX
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:33 am

I'm not sure. Does being able to drive a car make you a better or worse PAX in a taxi-cab?
 
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ThrottleHold
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 3):
Why not? its easy to tell a great landing from a shit one

Tell us then, what in your opinion is the difference?

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 1):
he and I discussed how the landing was a bit fast for a wet runway

As mentioned before, it is virtually impossible to accurately judge the speed of the aircraft from the cabin. Unless you are aware of the specific conditions of the day, how can you say it was fast? Did you know the wind velocity? The strength of the 1000' wind to judge any shear? If its been raining, there might be CB's near by which could be giving gust fronts, requiring some extra knots on the approach.

Come back to me after you have a few thousand hours of practice landing commercial jets (not just on FS) and give me your opinion them.

[Edited 2006-07-30 20:44:48]
 
skibum9
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:44 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 3):
Why not? its easy to tell a great landing from a shit one, and plus the fact that when we were slowing down I was really lurched foward, something that rarely happens when I fly.

So classify a great landing? Many in the public think a great landing is a greaser, which is not always true.

Quoting Spruit (Reply 5):
But what I'm more interested in is the application of power on the approach as opposed to a smooth approach with good glide slope hold?

Adding power on the approach is no indicator of a great approach. As you come down the glideslope, the winds may change, requiring one to add or decrease power to hold the glideslope. Remember at this stage of flight, pitch controls airspeed and power controls altitude. So adjusting power to maintain the glidesplope is actually the proper method, and as such if you hear it occuring, you know you have a pilot that is aware of the changing conditions outside the plane. If you are lucky enough to be on a flight that no power is added, then more than likely it is because the wind is calm.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 6):
Id say the first 20 mins and last 20 mins nowadays.

Not in most cases. Sometimes the AP may be turned on at 500ft., other times the pilot will want to hand-fly. It all depends.
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captaingomes
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:53 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 3):
and plus the fact that when we were slowing down I was really lurched foward, something that rarely happens when I fly

This could have been due to the aircraft touching down further down the runway than desired, it could have been the pilots wanting to take one particular exit so they got on the brakes more than usual (seen this many times, with plenty of runway left). There are endless scenarios, but I will still say that from the back, it is virtually impossible to tell if the aircraft is coming in faster than it should be, since so many things can be causing this to be an illusion.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
VEEREF
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:12 am

Interesting that a PPL can tell all of that from sitting in the back. How does he know how fast the aircraft was travelling?
Assuming by the routing it was an Airbus of some kind. I don't fly the Airbus, but IIRC there are different autobrake settings for different scenarios. Airbus guys help me out here, wouldn't the autobrakes be set to full when the landing runway is contaminated or reduced?
I can say that autobrakes are no bullshit items, when you ask for full you get FULL and sometimes they will grab rather dramatically.
We don't have autobrakes on the DC-10 but if I mash the pedals to the floor I get EXACTLY what I ask for.

I too, am curious, what the difference between a good landing and "shit" landing is!
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
wing
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:23 am

Quoting Spruit (Thread starter):
As a private pilot, do you pick up on other pilots mistakes easily?

A private pilot on an airliner can not understand any mistake from the passenger cabin.

A commercial pilot without any type rating can not understand any mistake from the passenger cabin.

A commercial pilot with type rating and above does not search to look for a mistake of the collegues from the passenger cabin.

A real pilot with experience does not mention about the mistakes in the passenger cabin,because he/she knows he can not undestand any mistake from the passenger cabin.  Wink
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Cadet57
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:31 am

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 9):
Tell us then, what in your opinion is the difference?

Well when I dont get thrown around like a rag doll on approach or have the overhead door slam open becuase the pilot threw the 757 onto the runway as experianced last week in AUA. And the weather was winds from the west at 2mph with temps in the mid 80's and unlimited vis so dont give me weather as a rebuttle. Compared to a landing where you barely feel the wheels touch

Quoting ThrottleHold (Reply 9):
Come back to me after you have a few thousand hours of practice landing commercial jets (not just on FS) and give me your opinion them.

There was no need for you to act like such a jerk here. I'll have you know I have flown, not jets, just cessna;s but I do know how its done This is why I brought up the point this pilot made to me when we were discussing this matter. And maybe if you were a bit more polite, Id answer your questions better, but since it seems you cant do that with out flaming me...

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 12):
Interesting that a PPL can tell all of that from sitting in the back. How does he know how fast the aircraft was travelling?

All I was saying was the observation HE made. Not ME. IDK why im getting flamed for this. Spruit asked a question and I tried to give a response. I know its impossible to tell. But the pilot said thatt wind were sending us to use the west side of CLT on 36L and that it had gusts to 8mph with a visibility of 10 miles and light rain.
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Goldenshield
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:33 am

These would be 'shit' landings:


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twal1011727
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:41 am

All I have to say is them pilots up there better put the flaps down for takeoff. If they don't by the time they get to the end of the runway, theres gonna be trouble.

KD
 
captaingomes
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:45 am

Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 16):
All I have to say is them pilots up there better put the flaps down for takeoff. If they don't by the time they get to the end of the runway, theres gonna be trouble.

And which aircraft are we talking about, and under which conditions?
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
VEEREF
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:08 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 14):
IDK why im getting flamed for this

Nobody is flaming you.
Mention to your friend that just because a landing felt rough doesn't mean that it was unsafe.

Though it looked like it ended in a pretty smooth touchdown, a good example of unsafe is the recent photo of the KLM 744 appearing to touch short of or right on the threshold markings at SXM.
BIG no-no in a large jet.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 14):
Well when I dont get thrown around like a rag doll on approach or have the overhead door slam open becuase the pilot threw the 757 onto the runway as experianced last week in AUA. And the weather was winds from the west at 2mph with temps in the mid 80's and unlimited vis so dont give me weather as a rebuttle. Compared to a landing where you barely feel the wheels touch

I'm pretty sure you didn't get "thrown around like a rag doll" or you would have ended up in the hospital. What were the winds aloft? You mentioned SURFACE wind at 2mph. I have seen cases where the surface is calm but at 2000ft you can have 30-40kt. Yes, that will make for a rough ride due to the wind shearing to almost nothing in the span of a couple thousand feet.
Believe it or not, the LEAST safest way to land an airplane is to "grease" it on, as such a maneuver consumes valuable concrete better suited to stopping the aircraft.
BTW I've had a number of overheads come open during takeoffs and landings. All were due to mechanical issues with that particular mechanism, not with the quality of the landing. If it was TRULY that bad, they will ALL come open, and most likely so will the oxygen masks.

On the other hand, pilots are human. Not every landing is perfect. What has been described above would be considered uncomfortable, but hardly unsafe.
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Cadet57
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:11 am

Quoting VEEREF (Reply 18):
Mention to your friend that just because a landing felt rough doesn't mean that it was unsafe

He diddnt say it was unsafe, just commented that it seemed a bit fast.
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Ward86IND
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):
Airbus guys help me out here, wouldn't the autobrakes be set to full when the landing runway is contaminated or reduced?

Not an expert here, but I believe settings 1-2 are used normally going all the way up to MAX AUTO for the situations you are talking about. I was on an A320 recently and after touchdown at MSP we came to a stop VERY quickly, it was either pedal to the medal manual braking or a high setting autobrake.

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 17):
All I have to say is them pilots up there better put the flaps down for takeoff. If they don't by the time they get to the end of the runway, theres gonna be trouble.

Reminds me of the NW Md80 crash at DTW in the late 80s...
Live your dream.
 
captaingomes
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:35 am

Quoting Ward86IND (Reply 20):
Reminds me of the NW Md80 crash at DTW in the late 80s...

you misquoted me  Wink However, not all aircraft under all conditions require, nor should have flaps down for take-off. This includes one or two airliners that will take-off with flaps "0" set.  Smile
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
ACDC8
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):
A private pilot on an airliner can not understand any mistake from the passenger cabin.

 checkmark 

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):
commercial pilot without any type rating can not understand any mistake from the passenger cabin.

 checkmark 

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):
A commercial pilot with type rating and above does not search to look for a mistake of the collegues from the passenger cabin.

 checkmark 

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):
A real pilot with experience does not mention about the mistakes in the passenger cabin,because he/she knows he can not undestand any mistake from the passenger cabin.

 checkmark 

Not much more needed to add to that.
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Ward86IND
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:42 am

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 21):
you misquoted me However, not all aircraft under all conditions require, nor should have flaps down for take-off. This includes one or two airliners that will take-off with flaps "0" set.

Sorry, I had the thread up there a while and I think what happened was 2 other people replied which misaligned the quotes...and what airliners can do this? I don't think I've ever been on one that took off without flaps.
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N766UA
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:57 am

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 15):
These would be 'shit' landings:

I beg to differ on the B1900. That's a great landing. The gear collapsed yet they stayed on the runway and nobody got hurt.

Don't make me use the cliche "any landing you can walk away from" phrase....  silly 
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fly727
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:59 am

Quoting Spruit (Thread starter):
My question is, does being a pilot, airline or private, make you a better or a worse passenger?

I'd say better. Generally one tends to sympathize with the crew and is willing to make their job easier. Private pilots -specially those on their way up to become commercials- try hard to be noticed by the crew. These students wants real bad that the crew think of them as part of the "gang". To achieve so, they are often helpful, nice, talkative and unafraid of sharing their experience on MS Flight Simulator when they visit us in the cockpit. Cute.

On the other hand, there are others who, also in an effort to be noticed by the crew or other passengers, hardly can keep their mouth shut and start throwing non-sense.

If I'm flying as a passenger on the same aircraft type I work then the whole thing turns very interesting. There are Standard Operating Procedures, Flight Technique Manuals, flows and drills that we adhere to all the time. With this level of standardization it is very entertaining (and predictable) to know which flap setting follows, what is the approximate speed the aircraft is flying according to that flap setting, when the autopilot must be turned off and so on.

Quote:
As a private pilot, do you pick up on other pilots mistakes easily?

No. Practically impossible.

Quote:
Commercial pilots, do you notice when in the cabin, mistakes of your colleagues?

As I said above, if it is the same type I fly, there is a chance that I might catch something out of ordinary. However, sitting back there with only a tray table in front of me, makes me lack the "big picture", the reasons for an evident procedures deviation, air traffic and most important, the input of the other pilot.

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 1):
We were in an A319 on 36L and we were fast and i could have sworn I felt the tires start to slip a bit...

You do know there are different approach thus landing speeds, right? Though there's a pretty predictable range for each aircraft, conditions such as weight, wind corrections and field elevation add or reduce a few knots to those speeds.

Quoting Ward86IND (Reply 23):
and what airliners can do this? I don't think I've ever been on one that took off without flaps.

Fokker 100 as an example. Though not approved for flaps up take off, the 737 performs great with as little as flaps 1 (which is just a named position, not degree deflection).

RM  Smile
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H53Epilot
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:19 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 6):
Id say the first 20 mins and last 20 mins nowadays.

Try 1st 20 seconds and last 20 seconds.
 
N766UA
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting H53Epilot (Reply 26):
Try 1st 20 seconds and last 20 seconds.

That's more like in, unfortunately. Last week I flew into ATL on a 738 and CMH on a CRJ, in both cases I was near the front and could hear the autopilot chimes. The 737 turned off the a/p just after the "five hundred" call from the computer and the CRJ crew turned it off about 4 miles out, about a minute after turning final. Pretty sad, it was a great day.
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captaingomes
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:33 am

Thanks RM, I thought the F100 was one of them, but I wasn't 100% sure. I think I recall something about an A300 or A310 doing the same, but frankly I'm not certain.

There are situations where it's nice to have a professional in the back keeping an eye on things. One of my collegues, who is a training captain was flying as a passenger from YYC to YYZ. While on the ground, a rampy was having a little too much fun with his vehicle on the icy ramp, when it swung and hit the fuselage of the aircraft. Obviously concerned, my collegue called a flight attendant and mentioned what just had happened, and suggested that the captain should inspect the area of the aircraft. The flight attendant started with the "don't worry sir ..." speech when my collegue pulled out his business card and insisted the captain have a look at the aircraft.

In the end, everything was fine, but he was thanked for the information. The rampy was also dealt with, although I'm not sure exactly how. It's better to be safe than sorry, and having professional eyes in the back might come in handy from time to time.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:34 am

Jeez....lots of animosity here.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of sitting in the back, I'd rather sit up front and fly.

If the approach is particularly difficult for whatever reason and I can tell the pilot is working really hard, I'm actually somewhat jealous. Furthermore, those are the landings that I usually mention something to the pilots after the flight.

What do I say you ask?

"Good Job!"

Then again, I'm one of those pilots that thinks any landing on the runway that can be deemed safe is a good landing. If the plane is taxiing to the gate, then it was probably safe, I'm pretty easy to please.

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
Mainliner
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:43 am

As a mere CFI with under three hundred hours, I generally do not feel qualified to judge an ATP-rated and type-rated professional with many times more experience than myself. When I flew to PHX a few weeks ago, my mother (with no aviationn experience whatsoever) was complaining about the supposedly "rough" landing our A320 made...I found it to be a perfectly soft landing, and was quick to defend the crew from her unfounded criticism.
Every flight counts.
 
halls120
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:12 am

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):
A real pilot with experience does not mention about the mistakes in the passenger cabin,because he/she knows he can not undestand any mistake from the passenger cabin.

My brother is a Delta Captain. From time to time, I've asked him to decipher an event I've encountered while on a commercial flight. He will always try to give me an answer, but he always qualifies his answer with a disclaimer similar to the above.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:51 am

The only difference being a private pilot has ever made for me in the passenger cabin is that on the air traffic control channel of the audio system, I can understand what is going on.
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:17 am

It is my experience that most commercial pilots are a pleasure to have on board. It's the private, Piper-flying pilots that are a pain in the neck. They think they know more about weather, mechanical and other issues than the guys flying the plane.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:28 am

I think this is great! We have all these experts giving their opinion about judging everyone's mistakes from the cabin! I wish I had the talent/expertise to do that.

I have over 22,000 hours, of which over 8000 is PIC on the 744/747. I probably deadhead on atleast one segment/month sometimes even more. The last thing on my mind is critisizning the guys up in the cockpit. First of all, I don't have all the information. I don't have the latest ATIS, the MEL/CDL items. I don't have anything which would make me qualified to render an opinion.

Anyone who can say the aircraft landed a "little too fast for a wet runway" is an idiot. Professional pilots know better than to make stupid statement such as that.
Fly fast, live slow
 
Amazonphil
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:40 am

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 19):
Quoting VEEREF (Reply 18):
Mention to your friend that just because a landing felt rough doesn't mean that it was unsafe

He diddnt say it was unsafe, just commented that it seemed a bit fast.

A good and experienced pilot that has flown many hours and many hours in a cabin also, CAN tell from the pax cabin when a landing is somewhat too fast. I agree with this statement above that the pilot in the cabin felt the landing was a bit fast. BUT that depends where the plane is landing. If at a high density altitude airport, the sensation while looking outside WILL look and seem fast as more ground speed is necessary to get the required indicated airspeed. However, at a sea level airport, the speed may seem slower to the eye while looking outside as the air density will be greater, thus not requiring the faster foward ground speed. A conscientious pilot will notice when the speed would seem to fast for the conditions and location.

Regrads,
amazonphil
If it ain't Boeing, I ain't goeing!
 
fly727
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:03 pm

Quoting Amazonphil (Reply 35):
A conscientious pilot will notice when the speed would seem to fast for the conditions and location.

Consciousness helps but so does his/her McGyver knife with an integrated aircraft weighting device to calculate VRef, right?

Oh, wait a minute... Pocket knives are not allowed on board anymore!

RM  Yeah sure
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
 
PlainSmart
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:13 pm

PhilSquares ladies and gentlemen is a Professional. Thank you. I could not agree more as a pilot, the last thing I am doing is looking for mistakes.
 
fspilot747
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:39 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 19):

He diddnt say it was unsafe, just commented that it seemed a bit fast.

Your friend's about as clueless as you are.
 
ual777
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RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:40 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 27):

That's more like in, unfortunately. Last week I flew into ATL on a 738 and CMH on a CRJ, in both cases I was near the front and could hear the autopilot chimes. The 737 turned off the a/p just after the "five hundred" call from the computer and the CRJ crew turned it off about 4 miles out, about a minute after turning final. Pretty sad, it was a great day.

Are you positive it wasn't the OM or IM ringer. It goes off at about 500 agl.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
Outlier
Posts: 327
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:17 am

RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:56 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 14):
but since it seems you cant do that with out flaming me...

You flame yourself. I don't know what else you would call it when you describe yourself as a "supermarket bitch".
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:13 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 27):
The 737 turned off the a/p just after the "five hundred" call from the computer and the CRJ crew turned it off about 4 miles out, about a minute after turning final. Pretty sad, it was a great day.

So what's your point? Is there anything in the SOPs that says the autopilot has to be turned off at a certain point? I don't think so.

Let me tell you what, you try flying 5 or 6 legs on a 12 hour day with 7+45 scheduled. Believe me, the autopilot does a much better job than I can.

Do you expect the crew to fly the entire leg by hand. You really need to think about things before you write a response like you did!!!!
Fly fast, live slow
 
sccutler
Posts: 5583
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:31 pm

Quoting Wing (Reply 13):
A private pilot on an airliner can not understand any mistake from the passenger cabin.

A commercial pilot without any type rating can not understand any mistake from the passenger cabin.

A commercial pilot with type rating and above does not search to look for a mistake of the collegues from the passenger cabin.

A real pilot with experience does not mention about the mistakes in the passenger cabin,because he/she knows he can not undestand any mistake from the passenger cabin. Wink

Agreed, subject to this caveat: All those guys above are "real" pilots. If any of them choose to pass judgment based upon the "view" from the passenger cabin of a commercial jet, they are "real" idiots.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
cptspeaking
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Apr 24, 2006 2:49 pm

RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:50 pm

Quoting Cadet57 (Reply 6):
Id say the first 20 mins and last 20 mins nowadays.

Not quite...lots of times the autopilot is engaged in the same motion as putting the gear up. Even in the 172s I fly all the time, we turn the autopilot on leaving 1000 feet when we're going somewhere besides the practice area. Once in a DA-40 with the G1000, we flipped the A/P on about 100 feet off the ground and flew a cross country with a coupled ILS at the other end. The KAP140 kept the glideslope perfectly all the way down, we just disengaged at the threshold (50 feet) to slow and flare. Almost a CAT III... biggrin 

Quoting H53Epilot (Reply 26):
Try 1st 20 seconds and last 20 seconds.

Now thats more like it  Wink

Your CptSpeaking
...and don't call me Shirley!!
 
usair320
Posts: 909
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2003 9:53 am

RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:00 pm

Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 16):
All I have to say is them pilots up there better put the flaps down for takeoff. If they don't by the time they get to the end of the runway, theres gonna be trouble.

when on a plane other than the F-100 I dont sit back and relax until those flaps are extended for takeoff.
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:07 pm

A "good landing" is composed of several things. A smooth touchdown is just a small part of the entire process. Everyone talks about being able to judge a landing by it's smoothness, however, you really don't have a clue.

I've given countless hours of IOE/Line Training where the FO or Capt flies a fast approach, late power reduction and excessive flare. However, we had a great touchdown. As far as I know, there are no forward looking windows in the cabin, no PFD for the airspeed indicator so the passengers in the cabin are clueless. However, I'd be willing to bet all the "experts" on this forum would think it was a great landing.

Not me!!
Fly fast, live slow
 
ual777
Posts: 1510
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:18 am

RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:39 pm

Quoting CptSpeaking (Reply 43):

Not quite...lots of times the autopilot is engaged in the same motion as putting the gear up. Even in the 172s I fly all the time, we turn the autopilot on leaving 1000 feet when we're going somewhere besides the practice area. Once in a DA-40 with the G1000, we flipped the A/P on about 100 feet off the ground and flew a cross country with a coupled ILS at the other end. The KAP140 kept the glideslope perfectly all the way down, we just disengaged at the threshold (50 feet) to slow and flare. Almost a CAT III... biggrin



Quoting CptSpeaking (Reply 43):

Now thats more like it

uhhhh. right.

Most pilots on departure hand fly it up to 12,000-18,000 and a few hand fly it all the way to cruise.

On the way down, same drill just in the reverse order.

That being said, in Europe it is a different story because there are about 25 departure tracks and 25 approach tracks because of all the noise abatement rules. Pilots from the US dont want to bust a reg. so most of the time they kick in the AP right after take-off so that they dont screw it up and get the company fined.

This is coming from a 777 captain.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
fly727
Posts: 1752
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:27 am

RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:02 pm

Quoting Ual777 (Reply 47):
Most pilots on departure hand fly it up to 12,000-18,000 and a few hand fly it all the way to cruise.

What aircraft type and operation you're talking about?

If you mean commercial, I have a hard time believing you. And turns awkward if it comes from a "777 Captain". Though the aircraft limitations might accept engaging/disengaging the AP probably up to its maximum service altitude, I'm absolutely sure no SOPs from any operator would allow the crew to hand-fly it all the way to cruise. That sounds like BS to me!!!! Sperry does a better job than I do flying precisely and saving fuel.

Boy, even anyone flying our "EFIS/FMS-impaired"  Wink 737-200s will get a hand-slap if the AP is not engaged before 10,000 feet.

Quoting Ual777 (Reply 47):
That being said, in Europe it is a different story because there are about 25 departure tracks and 25 approach tracks because of all the noise abatement rules. Pilots from the US dont want to bust a reg. so most of the time they kick in the AP right after take-off so that they dont screw it up and get the company fined.

That, I believe.

Good nite all!
RM  Smile
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
 
turnit56N
Posts: 230
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 12:13 am

RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:05 pm

Others have said things much better than I can. No person, regardless of experience, is capable of judging another pilot's flying job from the passenger cabin. You can't see the glideslope, the windsock, the energy management, the runway, the PAPI/VASI, or really anything substantial from the back. If I'm riding in the back of the plane I'm typed on, that I know better than my own car, I wouldn't think of criticizing the pilot flying it. As a pilot typed in that aircraft I may be able to anticipate when things are going to happen, but I can't tell if the pilot is fighting airspeed gains and losses on final, or if he/she's landing with a substantial tailwind. Without that knowledge, I wouldn't think about passing judgement on a landing.

Every landing and approach exists in an environment of variables. The quality of that landing or approach is relative to those variables (wind, aircraft condition, density altitude, ATC instructions, traffic, runway condition, atmospheric stability, visibility, etc.) If you don't know the variables, you can't judge the difficulty/speed/angle/timing of that approach. If you can't see the instruments, you can't judge how those variables are being handled. If you're not in the cockpit, you don't know what's going on. That goes for student pilots on up to ATPs rated in that type.

I suggest that if anyone out there would like to impress a seatmate on a flight, perhaps they could just stick to things like identifying when the aircraft is on a downwind and predicting when it will make a right or left turn to base.

I also suggest that there may be good reason why a 172 pilot may think the A320 is landing a little fast. There's a bit of a difference in normal touchdown speeds there. When the Cub or 152 pilot starts thinking their airliner is feeling a little too slow, then worry!
Aviation is not so much a profession as it is a disease.
 
AirWillie6475
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: Pilots As Passengers?

Mon Jul 31, 2006 3:24 pm

Quoting Turnit56N (Reply 49):
No person, regardless of experience, is capable of judging another pilot's flying job from the passenger cabin.



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 34):
I don't have anything which would make me qualified to render an opinion.



Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 2):

Oh please, some guys especially Southwest fly their planes like they're fighters or something. I remember one flight from BUR to SJC where pilots were step climbing and step descending like the whole way, nothing like feeling pushed down on your seats or feeling weightless. Doesn't even take a pilot to see that that is bad flying. And yes you can judge if the plane is going fast, ask those Southwest customers in BUR that wound up on Hollywood Way Blvd.