leelaw
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Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:29 pm

Flight International, 1 August 2006, by Nicholas Ionides (Fair Use Excerpt):

Singapore Flag Carrier Decides Against Acquisition of Boeing 777-200LR As It Orders A350 XWB And More A380s

...The airline has decided that it is not worth replacing the aircraft or increasing the size of the fleet and the five examples will continue to operate on the two Singapore-USA routes. It confirms it is "no longer considering the 777-200LR..."

As FI phrases it in the caption of the A345 picture illustrating the article: "Uncertainty hanging over the the future of SIA's A340-500 fleet has receded." This news should result in one less regular thread topic on A.net: "When Will SQ Order The 772LR?"  Smile

[Edited 2006-07-31 09:38:53]

[Edited 2006-07-31 09:40:17]

[Edited 2006-07-31 09:58:23]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
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PM
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:36 pm

Hmmm. A small vote of some confidence in the A345.

SQ do seem to do things differently from their regional competitors. For example, they were alone (until this month) in not flying the A330-300. Moreover, they have ordered both the 787 and A350XWB. They seem to know what they are doing.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:47 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 1):
Hmmm. A small vote of some confidence in the A345.

I don't think it has much to do with a vote of confidence, but more that Boeing isn't willing to provide a sweet deal that would involve taking the A345. I've argued before that SQ won't be willing to sell the A345 at a steeply reduced price to someone else, subsidizing that airlines operations and registering a loss on their books. Besides, if they take A333s, the A345 won't be such an odd ball in the fleet.

Quoting PM (Reply 1):
SQ do seem to do things differently from their regional competitors. For example, they were alone (until this month) in not flying the A330-300

Well they probably got a good deal on their derated 772ERs that their regional competitors wouldn't have gotten, and with the A330s coming online later this decade I suppose they will uprate them (I believe it is a software issue only).
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astuteman
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:05 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 2):
I've argued before that SQ won't be willing to sell the A345 at a steeply reduced price to someone else, subsidizing that airlines operations and registering a loss on their books.

Are you thinking that they'll persevere with the A345's until such time as an A350X or 787 long-range replacement is introduced?

Edit - thanks for the post, Leelaw.

Regards

[Edited 2006-07-31 10:07:35]
 
leelaw
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:14 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 3):
Are you thinking that they'll persevere with the A345's until such time as an A350X or 787 long-range replacement is introduce

Certainly looks like SQ has made the judgement that the increased payload capability, addition of first-class seats, more cargo etc., of the 772LR isn't worth the cost of acquisition for the relatively short "interim period."

[Edited 2006-07-31 10:16:40]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
atmx2000
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:35 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 3):
Are you thinking that they'll persevere with the A345's until such time as an A350X or 787 long-range replacement is introduced?

If they need additional long range capacity I think they would buy the 772LR. But they aren't going to do so unless they need extra capacity because they would have to offload the A345.

Or until someone introduces better equipment on that route. But that isn't likely to happen anytime soon as US airlines aren't buying anything capable of flying that SIN-EWR or SIN-JFK non-stop.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
GneissGuy
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:54 pm

Well, although the long range non stop SIN-EWK and SIN-SFO flight flights may not be making much money for SQ, i think they're pretty happy with the A345s and so are the passengers in the Executive Economy class.
 
leelaw
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:00 pm

The rap against the A345 on SQ's ULRs was they couldn't outfit the cabin with first-class seats and still make the range, while the 772LR could. Perhaps this is a stretch, but maybe the subtle message here is that SQ has decided that after more than two-years of A345 operations, the typical first-class passenger doesn't much care for ULR flights at the high premium fare providing such service would require?

[Edited 2006-07-31 11:09:21]
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
antares
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:47 pm

Well there goes the 777-200LRs big opportunity.

I think many posters totally over-estimated the strength of first class these days. When I fly on Singapore Airlines long haul in first class there are only three or four other passengers in the cabin...and not because they couldn't rush out before the doors were closed either.

It is a similar experience among my acquaintances not just on Singapore Airlines but Cathay Pacific, another preferred carrier.

Long haul business class on competent airlines has become too good compared to the fare in first. It will continue to expand in opulence in the new product initiatives we will see next year, yet shrink in numbers. Eventually it will cease, but for the time being you'll see the airlines aiming to serve not the 10-14 seats typically found in first but half unoccupied, but something between 9 and 6 seats.

It is balderdash to suggest by the way that the Singaporeans would subsidize an airline to buy them for next to nothing and then run them. Really. These jets rip tens of millions of dollars worth of lost premium revenue off the American carriers that are all but clueless about what it takes to be an Asia quality carrier, and that alone makes the small margins they earn on the A345s worth a lot more than the direct contribution to the balance sheet.

Antares
 
astuteman
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 6:50 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 4):
Certainly looks like SQ has made the judgement that the increased payload capability, addition of first-class seats, more cargo etc., of the 772LR isn't worth the cost of acquisition for the relatively short "interim period."

Interestingly, when you look at the specifications that have just been published for the A350X, the 265t A350-900's that SQ intend to order have a near-identical published capability to the 375t A340-500's that SQ fly today, namely 314 pax over 8500Nm for A359X vs 313 pax over 8650Nm for A345.
That's pretty impressive given the A359X is only 70% of the MTOW of the A345.

Regards
 
dutchjet
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:29 pm

My opinion: this decision is more about the ability to make money flying ULH routes than it is a decision about airplanes.

There has been speculation that SQ's two ULH routes have not been as successful as SQ had hoped.....it could be that passenges are simply not willing to pay a premium to fly on the ULH services and/or there is not adquate demand for the ULH services, or its a function of both factors. Thus, SQ is not investing in new airplanes for the services....thus the A345s will stay for the near term future and maybe ULH will make more sense when the super-duper versions of the A350 come on line. For now, the business case for buying new 772LRs (which are quite expensive) to replace rather young A345s (which have limited value on the second hand market....the ULH market is very small) is not there if the ULH route's financial result is marginal.

SQ had far greater ULH plans.....dont forget that SQ dropped five options for additional A345s (and its very unlike SQ to not exercise options)....SQ will continue to fly the SIN-LAX and SIN-EWR routes with the A345 and will like take a look at the entire ULH situation in the coming years, when new airplanes are available and when fuel prices have hopefully moderated.
 
kdm
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:39 pm

Quoting Antares (Reply 8):
When I fly on Singapore Airlines long haul in first class there are only three or four other passengers in the cabin

You are right. I flew Singapore to Auckland first class and was the only passenger (there may have been no one on the plane for all I knew  Smile )

Long haul to London/Singapore in first class is usually quite busy but rarely full.

Business class on SQ is excellent, the only slightly annoying thing is the beds whch are not completely flat.

I can usually justify the extra cost to fly business but hardly ever can justify large jump to first class.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:43 pm

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 11):
There has been speculation that SQ's two ULH routes have not been as successful as SQ had hoped.....it could be that passenges are simply not willing to pay a premium to fly on the ULH services and/or there is not adquate demand for the ULH services, or its a function of both factors.

Alas, the speculation is incorrect. The Airline is happy with demand, especially in Raffles Class.

Unfortunately it is the macro environment (jet fuel price) and the operational economics that has put a dampner on the ULR services.

It would be interesting if someone could find out when SIA cancelled the A345 options considering that Mr. Chew said that ULR operations were unprofitable from the end of calendar year 2004.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
dutchjet
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 7:48 pm

Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 13):
Alas, the speculation is incorrect. The Airline is happy with demand, especially in Raffles Class



Quoting Singapore_Air (Reply 13):
Mr. Chew said that ULR operations were unprofitable from the end of calendar year 2004.

Well, demand and fares are not good enough, are they? If the flights are losing money, then either fares for the ULH service must increase and/or higher loads are required.

If SQ can make money in general from its operations with high fuel prices, then why are the ULH flights not profitable?
 
zvezda
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:53 pm

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 2):
Well they probably got a good deal on their derated 772ERs that their regional competitors wouldn't have gotten, and with the A330s coming online later this decade I suppose they will uprate them (I believe it is a software issue only).

SQ will be selling those B777-200s starting in 2009 (probably selling them in 2008 with a short lease-back). I expect SQ would let the buyers decide on whether or not to uprate them.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 3):
Are you thinking that they'll persevere with the A345's until such time as an A350X or 787 long-range replacement is introduced?

I can't see SQ keeping them longer than that and SQ seem to have rejected letting them go before that.

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 7):
Perhaps this is a stretch, but maybe the subtle message here is that SQ has decided that after more than two-years of A345 operations, the typical first-class passenger doesn't much care for ULR flights at the high premium fare providing such service would require?

That seems like a stretch. This looks to me like the capital cost of buying 5 B777-200LRs minus the revenue from selling 5 A340-500s (probably about $1B net) was more than the additional revenue expected minus the lower operating costs between 2008 (when the B777-200LRs could be acquired) and arrival of the B787-9s in 2011.

In other words, SQ added up the savings in operating cost for 5 B777-200LRs over three years vs 5 A340-500s and added to that the additional revenue that could be gained by operating the more capable aircraft for three years and found that the sum was less than the $1B or so it would cost to replace the A340s in 2008 (factoring in resale value of both types).

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 9):
Interestingly, when you look at the specifications that have just been published for the A350X, the 265t A350-900's that SQ intend to order have a near-identical published capability to the 375t A340-500's that SQ fly today, namely 314 pax over 8500Nm for A359X vs 313 pax over 8650Nm for A345.
That's pretty impressive given the A359X is only 70% of the MTOW of the A345.

I've been suggesting that the B777 will not be competitive with the A350. Thanks for helping make that point with a fine example.

If anyone wants a large VIP aircraft for delivery in 2011 or 2012, give SQ a call.
 
sparkingwave
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 9:47 pm

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 14):
I've been suggesting that the B777 will not be competitive with the A350. Thanks for helping make that point with a fine example.

The 777 of 2006 won't be competitive with the A350 of 2012? Okay, but what about the 777 of 2012 or shortly afterwards? Do you think Boeing is going to really stand still in about 6-8 years worth of time?

SparkingWave ~~~
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irobertson
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:13 pm

As I'm a big fan of the "baby-340s" (-200 and -500), this is good news to me. Nice to hear another vote of confidence for this great aircraft.
 
andyhunt
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:15 pm

Well, I just flew the A345 LAX-SIN in Executive Economy three days ago, what a great flight.....and talking to the crew, the flight is ALWAYS 100% full!

Regards

Andrew
A Happy A345 passenger!
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changyou
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:22 pm

Again...Since when it mentioned the ULH service is not profitable or making marginal profits? All i know from the mgt before that because of ETOPS issues that the 345 is more preferred for the time being. But some SQ pilots here always stay firm that the 345 will go or be replaced by the 777LR. Hmm...Wonder how accurate they can be.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:23 pm

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 3):
Are you thinking that they'll persevere with the A345's until such time as an A350X or 787 long-range replacement is introduced?

I've thought this for a while. The 789, to me, looks to be the jet SQ has chosen for this long/thin routes. With more range than the 345 and more cargo capacity, it can carry a similar number of pax more efficiently.

NYC, DFW, SFO, LAX, IAD, ORD, MIA etc. are within operational range of a 200 seat 789...

Quoting Antares (Reply 8):
Well there goes the 777-200LRs big opportunity.

An unbiased comment as always. AC, EK don't present big oportunities...

Quoting Irobertson (Reply 16):
As I'm a big fan of the "baby-340s" (-200 and -500), this is good news to me. Nice to hear another vote of confidence for this great aircraft.

I think the 345 is one of the best proportioned jets around, so I'm glad to see it remain in SQ colors.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
singaporegirl
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:25 pm

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 7):
The rap against the A345 on SQ's ULRs was they couldn't outfit the cabin with first-class seats and still make the range, while the 772LR could. Perhaps this is a stretch, but maybe the subtle message here is that SQ has decided that after more than two-years of A345 operations, the typical first-class passenger doesn't much care for ULR flights at the high premium fare providing such service would require?

actually none of our 772ers are equipped with the sky suites/first class seats as well. anyway, so we have to wait until airbus comes up with 359lr for us to replace the 345s?
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RichardPrice
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:32 pm

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 20):
actually none of our 772ers are equipped with the sky suites/first class seats as well. anyway, so we have to wait until airbus comes up with 359lr for us to replace the 345s?

Theres a -900R scheduled for 2015 with a range of 9500nm carrying 310 passengers approx.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:33 pm

Being able to haul more cargo AND passangers is so overrated. So is using less fuel.

Good to see that SQ is supporting Airbus.
 
boeing767-300
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:36 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 1):
Hmmm. A small vote of some confidence in the A345.

SQ do seem to do things differently from their regional competitors. For example, they were alone (until this month) in not flying the A330-300. Moreover, they have ordered both the 787 and A350XWB. They seem to know what they are doing.

They sure do. I used to think SQ really knew what they were doing but I am not so sure. Firstly they bought A343 and it underperformed and was ultimately replaced by the B777 which came to the market two years later. SQ would eventually build up the biggest fleet of B777(Although EK are destined to surpass them and I don't think SQ are too impressed with that)

Then SQ order A345 which also underperforms on their ULH sectors. Whilst there is no doubt the 772LR performs better there is doubt whether the difference is enough to make good money but obviously not enough to warrant fleet changeover.

You would think they would have learnt their lesson by now but they have gone back for third go which makes me believe this A350XWB order has originated from the negotiations for A380 delays.

I will get flamed for this but I believe the options for A380 and MOU for A350 originated out of these negotiations. I am sure they have been offered at a price that NOBODY could refuse. Whatever the price they got them does not matter to Airbus as they have gained credibility by having a blue chip customer ordering A350 and finally some good A380 news because someone finally placed an order/firmed up options after so much bad A380 press.

Make no mistake SQ can't lose the deal will have performance contract guarantees that will have A sweating but the killer deal here for SQ is that they have shocked Boeing who will came to the next negotiations with a much sharper pencil thats for sure.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 9):
Interestingly, when you look at the specifications that have just been published for the A350X, the 265t A350-900's that SQ intend to order have a near-identical published capability to the 375t A340-500's that SQ fly today, namely 314 pax over 8500Nm for A359X vs 313 pax over 8650Nm for A345.
That's pretty impressive given the A359X is only 70% of the MTOW of the A345.

Very impressive Astuteman but they are paper only and how much credibilty do you give Airbus when they spend two years getting it wrong and then design or should I say produce a brochure of a 777 killer that is still 6 years from launch in about 8 weeks... "Yeah Right!!!! . When will Y3 appear and what improvements will Boeing make to 777 before then.

On Airbus's current form I have my doubts but bring on the competition. I just can't see A350 having anything like payload uplift and range of 777-300ER with 95K engines... time will tell.

Things may change a little when SQ get first hand experience of their GE powered 77Ws, then they will know why their competitors at EK have 74 long range 777's on order(54 77W 12 772LR and 8 777Fs)

Is this a ploy on SQs part to get rock bottom prices 772LR????
 
leelaw
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:39 pm

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 20):

IIRC, a member who is SQ cabin crew has said some passengers were complaining that the A345s weren't oufitted with first-class seating...perhaps you'd like to comment based on the feedback you've received from passengers?
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Danny
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:40 pm

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 23):
Whilst there is no doubt the 772LR performs better

The only operator so far: PIA had serious concerns about 772LR performance.
 
astuteman
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:59 pm

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 19):
I've thought this for a while. The 789, to me, looks to be the jet SQ has chosen for this long/thin routes. With more range than the 345 and more cargo capacity, it can carry a similar number of pax more efficiently.

It's interesting that (IIRC) initially SQ are placing the 789's on shorter routes, and the A350X's on longer routes. It will be interesting to see what happens longer term.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 23):
Very impressive Astuteman but they are paper only and how much credibilty do you give Airbus when they spend two years getting it wrong and then design or should I say produce a brochure of a 777 killer that is still 6 years from launch in about 8 weeks... "Yeah Right!!!! . When will Y3 appear and what improvements will Boeing make to 777 before then.

My only point was (not meant to be limited to the A350X BTW) that these new generation aircraft (787 + A350) are offering "step changes" in performance over existing equipment, not "a bit better".

How much credibility do I give Airbus? Any new design is a "paper plane" until it is proven in service AFAIK. I haven't seen anything that suggests that Airbus (or Boeing for that matter) will miss the specifications enough to change the "truth" of my first comment.
These 2 families of planes are going to be hard for any airline to ignore.

FWIW I'm not inclined to take the ability to "improve" the 777 into an "A350 beater" as a given either. Or the inclination, for that matter  Smile.
I'll happily eat my words if proved wrong, but I really don't see Boeing going all-out to make the 777 into an A350 beater. I think they'll very sensibly add value to the 777 on a pareto basis, as they have demonstrated with the 748.

The planes that will be intended to "beat" the A350 will be the larger 787's and smaller Y3's.

As an enthusiast I think it's all great news for the likes of us.

Regards
 
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scbriml
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:01 pm

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 22):
Good to see that SQ is supporting Airbus.

Halibut, is that you? rotfl 

As Zvezda clearly explained, the very high purchase costs of the 772LR obviously couldn't be overcome by their superior performance in the time-frame that SQ is working to. It has nothing to do with supporting Airbus and everything to do with simple business.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
manni
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:08 pm

One of the more popular airliners.net legends in regards to SQ gone up in smoke.

And it all started with SQ removing the name 'Leadership' from their aircraft.

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 23):
Is this a ploy on SQs part to get rock bottom prices 772LR????

 rotfl 

Quoting CHANGYOU (Reply 18):
But some SQ pilots here always stay firm that the 345 will go or be replaced by the 777LR. Hmm...Wonder how accurate they can be.

 checkmark 
SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
 
krisyyz
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:18 pm

Quoting Danny (Reply 25):
The only operator so far: PIA had serious concerns about 772LR performance.

Isn't that serious concern due to the airport elevation in Pakistan?

Would SQ be interested in AC's 2 A345's? They will be leaving the fleet in about a year, when AC's 12 B772LR's start arriving.

KrisYYZ
 
FCKC
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:20 am

This declaration of SQ , means they will not order anymore either 777-200ERs or LRs , but probably only 300ERs.This , coupled with the arrival of the A330-300s sounds as the beginning of the end for the small T7 at SQ.
What will be the future of the 300s non ER ?
 
dutchjet
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:30 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 30):
What will be the future of the 300s non ER ?

The 773A probably has a secure future at SQ......its perfect for high demand shorter haul runs. It will be interesting watching the SQ fleet evolve....SQ is going from very few types to varied types; what the exact mission of each type will be fun to watch.
 
zvezda
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:38 am

Quoting SparkingWave (Reply 15):
The 777 of 2006 won't be competitive with the A350 of 2012? Okay, but what about the 777 of 2012 or shortly afterwards? Do you think Boeing is going to really stand still in about 6-8 years worth of time?

I have no doubt that there will continue to be incremental improvements to the B777 line and that those (along with increased flexibility in pricing) will allow the B777s to continue selling for as long as Boeing can offer delivery before the A350. After that, I expect the B777 (freighter excepted perhaps) to sell about as well as the B767 is selling now.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 19):
I've thought this for a while. The 789, to me, looks to be the jet SQ has chosen for this long/thin routes. With more range than the 345 and more cargo capacity, it can carry a similar number of pax more efficiently.

SQ have announced that they will use the B787-9s on regional routes and the A350-900s on longer routes. However, much could change by 2011.

Quoting Singaporegirl (Reply 20):
so we have to wait until airbus comes up with 359lr for us to replace the 345s?

Either the A350-900 or B787-9 could easily fly SIN-SFO/LAX nonstop year-round with good payloads. SIN-EWR would be marginal.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting FCKC (Reply 30):
What will be the future of the 300s non ER?



Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 31):
The 773A probably has a secure future at SQ......its perfect for high demand shorter haul runs.

Plus so far Airbus does not seem to be interested in producing an A350 model that would service the high-density short-haul market, so the 773A will continue to have the market to herself.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 32):
SQ have announced that they will use the B787-9s on regional routes and the A350-900s on longer routes. However, much could change by 2011.

Either way. Both are fleets of 20.

I assumed the 350 would be used on regional routes because it will replace the 777 doing the same as well as the 333s that are coming in the mean time for the same purpose. But I guess there is no longer "commonality" between the 350 and 330, so this logic is less important.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:13 am

Well, after having trained the crews, after having invested in all the logistics related to management of this small fleet, I'm not sure it would be wise for SQ to step back now...
When I doubt... go running!
 
airbazar
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:14 am

Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 23):
You would think they would have learnt their lesson by now but they have gone back for third go which makes me believe this A350XWB order has originated from the negotiations for A380 delays.

Correct me if I'm wrong but when SQ ordered the A343 the 777 was not yet available. Moreover, the underperforming issue with the A343 was the engine manufacturer, not the airplane maker. There were also ETOPS issues. The point is, SQ didn't get it wrong. It was simply the only available option.

When they ordered the A345 the 772LR was also not available for a few years to come. Ironicaly, the existence of the 772LR makes getting rid of the A345 that much more difficult for SQ because no one will pay the kind of money that SQ needs to make such a transaction viable.

As for the third go, the A350X is a direct competitor to the 777, which even if they don't quite make the target, will likely still be a better perfomer than the currect 777 by virtue of being a newer aircraft. Boeing is not currently working on improving the 777 so once again, Airbus has no competitor in that airplane size.

But you're conveniently forgeting that SQ has made similar "mistakes" in the past, as you call it, in regards to other manufactures. I remember them dumping the 757's after a very short time in operation, and canceling the Md-11 even before the first delivery.

A lot of people also conveniently forget that they operate a large fleet of A320 family aircraft with SilkAir and Tiger Airways, so it's not like SQ is entirely unhappy with Airbus in general.
 
singaporegirl
Posts: 288
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:26 am

Quoting Leelaw (Reply 24):
IIRC, a member who is SQ cabin crew has said some passengers were complaining that the A345s weren't oufitted with first-class seating...perhaps you'd like to comment based on the feedback you've received from passengers?

in the beginning yes, but like i've mentioned before, our pax used to ask about the lack of sky suites on our long haul 772s as well. obviously the company did/does not see the need to upgrade our 772er with sky suites.
Ladies & Gentlemen, we will now demonstrate the use of the safety equipment on this aircraft...
 
changyou
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:51 am

I believe it was the weight issue that's preventing the skysuites being install on the 772ER. And the coming 773W will not be install any FCL seats similar to the A380 suites. They will have different FCL seats. This again is the weight issue being highlighted to the company while selecting the new seats for these new aircrafts. So alot will be disappoonted by the FCL seats on the 773W. But the 380 new FCL seats will not loose out to EK. just wait and see.

[Edited 2006-07-31 18:52:53]
 
Halibut
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:55 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 27):
Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 22):
Good to see that SQ is supporting Airbus.

Halibut, is that you?

 cheerful  No !

However , the propping up of Airbus by SQ saved them millions , no doubt !

Hhmm  scratchchin 

Halibut
Airbus Saved By Airline Industry?Monopoly,no Way! (by Halibut Jul 23 2006 in Civil Aviation)
6 million Jews were slaughtered-Do you see Jews flying planes into buildings in Germany to kill 1000s of innocent, NO !
 
StuckInCA
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:04 am

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 10):
There has been speculation that SQ's two ULH routes have not been as successful as SQ had hoped.....it could be that passenges are simply not willing to pay a premium to fly on the ULH services and/or there is not adquate demand for the ULH services, or its a function of both factors

Maybe it's more related to payload. I (and my coworkers) are certainly willing to pay a premium (more than they charge) for LAX-SIN rather than connecting. Likewise, our counterparts on the east coast enjoy EWR-SIN rather than connecting. Granted, there are some who choose connecting as the flight is just too long for them.

Quoting Kdm (Reply 11):
I can usually justify the extra cost to fly business but hardly ever can justify large jump to first class.

I sort of assume that only royalty and music/film stars actually fly first. Maybe I'm naive, but who would actually pay for that (businesses included)?

Quoting AndyHunt (Reply 17):
Well, I just flew the A345 LAX-SIN in Executive Economy three days ago, what a great flight.....and talking to the crew, the flight is ALWAYS 100% full!

Indeed. Executive economy is pretty nice!
 
Morvious
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:37 am

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 34):
Either way. Both are fleets of 20.

I assumed the 350 would be used on regional routes because it will replace the 777 doing the same as well as the 333s that are coming in the mean time for the same purpose. But I guess there is no longer "commonality" between the 350 and 330, so this logic is less important.

I always thought that the A350 was bought for the long range routes, while the 787 was there for regional. The 777 was always to big for its purpose?.?
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
 
texfly101
Posts: 343
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:22 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 27):
As Zvezda clearly explained, the very high purchase costs of the 772LR obviously couldn't be overcome by their superior performance in the time-frame that SQ is working to. It has nothing to do with supporting Airbus and everything to do with simple business.

So true...its all about the money. These airlines work A and B against each other, taking advantage of either maunfactors weakness or vulnerability. I don't think it comes as any great surprise to a business person to see the A380 and A350 deal given A's current problems and Singapore's competitive advantage. This is a very competitve business and no airline "supports" any specific manufactor. They buy what works best according to the classic economics of the business. Buy low, operate low, sell seats high makes profits. Buying A or B just because they are A or B is not what these guys do.
 
trex8
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:29 am

Quoting Morvious (Reply 41):
I always thought that the A350 was bought for the long range routes, while the 787 was there for regional.

SQ was quoted on some other thread saying that
 
leelaw
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:53 am

The full text of the FI article is now available online and the second half relates to:

...SIA is meanwhile reviewing offers for engines to power the additional A380s it plans to order. It is also "talking to the various manufacturers" about engines to power its future fleets of A350 XWBs and 787s...

http://62.189.48.33/Articles/2006/08...IA+rules+out+A340+replacement.html
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
dutchjet
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 43):
SQ was quoted on some other thread saying that

There was a discussion concerning SQ orderding both the 789 and A359 (which surprised a lot of us) and an a.net member proposed that the 789s would be dedicated to regional and middle east services while the A359s would handle longer range flying.....the information did NOT come from inside SQ - it was speculation (well though out speculation, but nonetheless speculation) based on an analysis of SQ's current and future route system. Lets be realistic, the A359s will not be delivered for many years - SQ has probably not yet determined which airplanes will be flying what routes at this early date, the same is true for the 789.
 
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glideslope
Posts: 1423
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 22):
Good to see that SQ is supporting Airbus.

Agreed, good for the competition.  Big grin
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
CRJ900
Posts: 1945
Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:48 am

RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:15 am

Quoting Danny (Reply 25):
Quoting Boeing767-300 (Reply 23):
Whilst there is no doubt the 772LR performs better

The only operator so far: PIA had serious concerns about 772LR performance.

"Extensive test flights" by manufacturers are always great, with fantastic results, but the truth really comes out when airlines start flying them on real flights and busy schedules...

With only one operator at the moment flying 2-3 aircraft, it is too early to claim that the 772LR is much better than the A345.
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
DAYflyer
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:56 am

Well, it is exactly what may here have said: They will order and operate what makes sense to them as an airline.
One Nation Under God
 
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Stitch
Posts: 23214
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RE: Singapore Airlines Rules Out A345 Replacement

Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:01 am

Quoting CHANGYOU (Reply 38):
And the coming 773W will not be install any FCL seats similar to the A380 suites. They will have different FCL seats. So alot will be disappoonted by the FCL seats on the 773W. But the 380 new FCL seats will not loose out to EK. just wait and see.

If the 773ERs will have a different (and inferior) First Class to the A380s, then why has SQ consistently pushed back delivery of their 773ER fleet on the basis (as reported here) that they wished to showcase their new First and Raffles Classes on the A380?

The reasons advanced for the 773ER delays were SQ wanted to showcase the new premium cabins on the A380s, but due to delivery delays, the 773ERs would enter the fleet with those new cabins first if they had been taken as scheduled.

 Confused