ultrapig
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United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:33 pm

I travel a modest amount-but a.net gate agents tell em where I am wrong on this one.

I had a code share ticket on AirCanda connecting to a code share flight out of ORD last night. First there is a weather hold in YYZ. Then an equipmnent substitution. OK one expects that type of thing. As I board I specifically say to the AC gate agent. "I will have 15 minutes to connect at ORD-Please make sure UA knows there is a late flight" She assures me they will anbd that everything is late at ORD.

I get off the plane at 10:07 for a 10:20 flight to STL-walked very fast a relatively short distance-STL flight still showing as boarding and its not 10:20-gate agent says flight is gone they closed it at 10:10.

I understand that flights are closed before their departure time-but here I was connecting on a code share-and it was the last flight of the day (could have understood it if it were not)-I went back to AC which they were prepared for me and had my new flight for this am ready and a hotel-in other words they knew I would miss it-and said "United doesn't hold flights"


United has the right to have any policy it wants-just let people know. I know this is not WN's policy or AA's policy having had similar situations ont he last flight through Chciago in the last year. I'm not saying I'll never fly UA but one would be nuts to use them in a late connection through ORD under these circumstances in view of the other airlines' policies


Right?
 
halls120
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:40 pm

Quoting Ultrapig (Thread starter):
United has the right to have any policy it wants-just let people know. I know this is not WN's policy or AA's policy having had similar situations ont he last flight through Chciago in the last year. I'm not saying I'll never fly UA but one would be nuts to use them in a late connection through ORD under these circumstances in view of the other airlines' policies

UA, like DL and AA, will hold flights when they can. I know, because I've been on UA flights that have been held at the gate at IAD (and DL flights in ATL. as well as AA flights in MIA) to accommodate late connections. When that happened the last time, the captain advised us of the short delay, and assured us that our late departure wouldn't affect arrival in London, since we had favorable tailwinds that particular evening.

I think that is the key - will delaying departure affect downstream operations. If it does, I doubt any airline would hold a flight.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
congaboy
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:45 pm

I had a similar experience in SLC with DL...I was livid, because I also asked DL to advise the upstation of late arrival. I believe carriers will purposefully close the flight when the flight may be completely full...that way, they avoid any DBC expenses by falling on the policy of "closing the flight 10 minutes before departure".

The other issue is, of course, on time departure. Airlines, I believe, publish flight times with a great amount of padding for ground time/taxi time, especially at a place like ORD.

Either way, it leaves a bad experience in its wake...I am sure airlines have calculated the impact of an upset passenger against an early push-back.
"Joey, you like movies about gladiators?"
 
ultrapig
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:47 pm

But here- there would be no effect- this was the last flight of the day for my UA flight and the plane and crew ere gonna sit in STL overnight-five or ten minutes would have made no difference to anyone-as far as i could see.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:49 pm

I know for sure that on International flights UA at ORD will hold the flights "within reason" if there are a number of connecting passengers.

Saying that its boils down to the time of day etc...I think Halls120 hit it right on the head. If it has a knock on effect, then no airline will stay for you.
 
roseflyer
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:54 pm

I've heard that it costs the airline roughly $5 per minute to hold a plane. If it was Air Canada's fault, UA might not be willing to hold the plane. I do however feel sorry for you. I personally avoid scheduling the last flight through ORD on all occasions. It is just too risky. I don't want to end up at ORD spending the night at my own cost.

What was the reason for your delay? You implied weather, and if so, I'm somewhat surprised that AC gave you a hotel room.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
ejmmsu
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:56 pm

The only airline that has not held a flight for me and forced me to miss a connection is UA. A 2-3 minute hold would have been fine.. I showed up 7-8 minutes before scheduled departure, and the door was closed.. sorry... go wait in line for an hour to get rebooked on a flight tomorrow. This was also a "last flight of the night" which would not have effected downstream operations by waiting 2-3 minutes. Not suprisingly, I don't fly on UA, or suggest UA to others anymore. NW often holds flights at MEM during their evening bank for 5-10 minutes for connections.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
ORDTerminal1
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:57 pm

remember though that it costs more money when airplanes don't leave the gate on time. Certainly from a business standpoint it makes sense not to wait for late arriving pax. From a customer service standpoint...different story.
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dartland
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting Ultrapig (Reply 3):
But here- there would be no effect- this was the last flight of the day for my UA flight and the plane and crew ere gonna sit in STL overnight-five or ten minutes would have made no difference to anyone-as far as i could see.

I agree, but I've seen it happen before also. My girlfriend flew BOS-ATL-TPA on FL a few weeks ago. Her flight from BOS left almost an hour late (even though it was said to be "on-time" right up until the departure time passed and the gate wasn't even clear from the flight before hers). The gate agents at BOS said: "If you know ATL, i'm sure you'll be fine" (she had to change terminals).

Sure enough, they deplaned in ATL 2 minutes before the plane pulled away for TPA. They didn't hold the flight and she didn't make it. She had to wait in line for 30 minutes to get her a hotel voucher and reservation for the next morning. At least they put her up at a decent hotel near the airport.

But there were apparently ~6 people on her flight connecting to the TPA flight, and bunch of people who missed their connections on other flights.

Given these were all last flights out -- one would think FL holding the flight by 5 minutes for those people to get over to the departure gate would be the prudent thing to do. But apparently they don't operate like that.

(an ATL gate agent's response was always leave at least 1.5 hours to transfer in ATL.)

As an aside, Flightaware told me the TPA flight was taxiing for pretty much the whole time she was in line waiting for her hotel. It didn't end up taking off until ~40 minutes after it left the gate -- well after she had been on the ground at ATL.
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:02 am

There are also certain destinations where holding the flight is humanly impossible. For instance, you don't want to hold that last flight to Orange County, because that would cause a missed curfew, requiring an automatic diversion to LAX. Additionally, you don't want a situation where that crew would be in late enough to cause the outbound departure to be delayed due to FAA crew rest rules (or any more-strict crew rest rules that the carrier may abide by)
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CP744
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting Ultrapig (Reply 3):
crew ere gonna sit in STL overnight-five or ten minutes would have made no difference to anyone-as far as i could see.

Don't know about UA, but with us, it does effect the first departure the next morning, it has to do with the amount of crew rest required by Transport Canada. Head start flights that are late really screw up the day!

Oversea flights are different in that the crews generally have a bit more time in between flights.

Cheers

[Edited 2006-07-31 17:10:30]
 
commavia
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:13 am

Perhaps just personal experience, but I've been on many AA flights out of D/FW where the door was held for usually 5-7 minutes to accomodate late-arriving connection passengers. I was once on a flight around 11am DFW-LAX and there was a weather issue in the northeast that morning. I heard the agents say that there were about 45 incoming connections to the flight from LGA/BOS/DCA/etc. and that the rest of the day's flights were oversold, so they had made the decision to hold the plane and get these people out. Thankfully, we only ended up taking about a 15 minute delay and everyone made their connections.

Even though AA's agents (again, at least in my experience) do generally try to close the door 1-2 minutes early and get the plane out on time, I have definitely seen them hold "last flight of the night" flights, and other flights during the day, for connections.
 
UAL777UK
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:16 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 6):
NW often holds flights at MEM during their evening bank for 5-10 minutes for connections.

Well, if they do, that must cost then some serious bucks!!
 
apodino
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:24 am

I know in PHL the last flights on ZW are often held for connecting passengers. Our flight crews hate when this happens as it affects our on time numbers. Still its not a bad thing to do.

Since it was a STL flight, you were probably on GoJet, and not United Mainline. I don't recall late flights being held for connecting passengers from our days with United. Now if the flight wasn't held, I would not be sure if this is a GoJet thing, or a United thing. If its GoJet, your beef might be with them and not United.
 
flashmeister
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:26 am

I am not usually a defender of United whatsoever, but I do have to say that they've held flights for me and have even gone beyond that for members of my family.

UA held my connection at ORD when I was flying PDX-ORD-PHL due to a late inbound arrival due to mechanical problems. The FA was great on that flight -- took my carryon as I came running down the jetway and stowed it in the crew locker since they were literally belted in and waiting for me. As we pushed back, she brought me a glass of water since i'd been running from one end of the concourse to the other. Nice touch.

On one of my Mom's trips, her connection to the DEN-EUG flight (when it was still mainline, so this is more than a couple of years ago) was just pushing back as she made it to the gate. Her inbound was late and she ran to make the connection. It was the last flight of the night and UA would have had to put her up in a hotel, so (I wasn't there to witness it, so I'm not sure how the communication took place) the gate staff managed to call the plane back. They repositioned the jetway, she ran down and they took her on in a hurry. The FA told her to just sit in one of the open first class seats and throw her stuff under the seat ahead of her. Once in flight, they didn't even ask her to move.  Smile

When she arrived in EUG, and was in baggage claim, a woman came up to my Mom and said "Are you someone? Like somebody important?" Made her laugh.

Sounds extremely unlikely, I know, but someone in DEN thought it made more sense than paying for a hotel voucher.
 
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Amwest2United
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting Ultrapig (Thread starter):
First there is a weather hold in YYZ.

I guess I would question why you would travel to ORD knowing you were very close on your connection.

Quoting Ultrapig (Thread starter):
that everything is late at ORD

How did she know everything was late? I worked last night and I wouldn't say every flight was delayed.

One thing you have to remember about ORD, ORD is truly delay plauqed, and lots of flights are canceled to get the next flights on-time.

ORD being a hub, they have a bank system and that means planes are landing to replace the planes that are departing. So if we held the plane 5-10mins, that could mean another plane load of paxs are now missing their connections as well.

I have to close doors all the time knowing people are connecting from our code-share partners, and will show up in 5-10 mins later, but the 119 customers that are on board, on-time, expect an on-time departure.

Side note: Last night I had a guy show up from ISP 1.5 hours late. He was upset at us because we had no flight to DEN. UM, duh, if you leave 1.5 hours late, and had 30mins to connect, who should you be upset with about missing your connection?? YOURSELF! We had to direct him back to US, but he was still saying we gave his seat away to someone else and we should get him to DEN tonight.

I have a question??? WHY would anyone get on a plane knowing full well they are going to miss thier connection and expect that the plane would be there. If the flight is late, stay put, get rebooked for the next flight available. But don't expect to get to a hub and be taken care of.

A word to the Wise, if you get rebooked out of the HUB the next day, prior to getting on your origninating flight, get your vouchers for hotels and such. There is a good chance that when you get to the hub, all the rooms will be taken even if the orginating station promises you one.
Life is what happens to you while you making plans to live it!
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:31 am

Quoting Ultrapig (Reply 3):
But here- there would be no effect- this was the last flight of the day for my UA flight and the plane and crew ere gonna sit in STL overnight-five or ten minutes would have made no difference to anyone-as far as i could see.

Crew hours or scheduled mx could have been a deal there...
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
UAL777UK
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 16):
Crew hours or scheduled mx could have been a deal there...

A very good point. If the crew goes over their hours, they will walk of the plane and then all the passengers oboard are shafted. Do you think any airline will wait for one person knowing that could happen.........hell no!
 
LAXintl
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:40 am

One thing to consider from an airlines point of view, are the bigger DOT ontime numbers.

Holding a flight a mere 5-10mins as you suggest could very well cause the flight to arrive at its destination in excess of the DOT allowed 15 min grace period and further negative impact the carriers very publicly reported performance.

Holding the last flights of the night enmasse night after night will very quickly cause the DOT numbers to drop fast.

Regretfully, its a business decision UA or any other carrier must make however besides internal considerations and ramifications the very public DOT performance spotlight does push carriers to break connection rather than take the delay to keep their numbers up.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
ejmmsu
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:43 am

Quoting UAL777UK (Reply 12):
Well, if they do, that must cost then some serious bucks!!

Why? They are just going to go overnight somewhere.. whats the difference?

All outbound departures during the evening bank at MEM are the last flights out that overnight at their destinations. Getting there 5 or 10 minutes late (which is usually made up in-route anyway since taxi and takeoff times are very minimal at MEM) is not going to cost them anything or effect their operations.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
YULWinterSkies
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:45 am

Quoting Ultrapig (Thread starter):
I'm not saying I'll never fly UA but one would be nuts to use them in a late connection through ORD under these circumstances in view of the other airlines' policies

I'm afraid it would be the same on other airlines anyways...
When I doubt... go running!
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:46 am

With ORD, even something like Slots comes to mind... or WX restrictions...
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
ejmmsu
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:51 am

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 21):
With ORD, even something like Slots comes to mind... or WX restrictions...

With all the problems ORD has, it amazes me people connect there when their are other options available with smaller chances of something going wrong.. IE CVG CLE DTW and MSP
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:56 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 22):
With all the problems ORD has, it amazes me people connect there when their are other options available with smaller chances of something going wrong.. IE CVG CLE DTW and MSP

Well, with the hub/spoke system, ORD is far from being abandoned, but due to the congestions it is certainly subject to delays...
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
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iahcsr
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:11 am

There is some safety in numbers.... If a departing flight is missing a larger number of connecting customers .. say 7 or more, from a late arrival or arrivals, they are much more likely to be given a hold. PROVIDED.. the hold is not more than 5-10 minutes. The larger the numbers, the greater the probability of holding ... But not always... Missing only two or three... then hope the plane is delayed for other reasons...
Working very hard to Fly Right....
 
ultrapig
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:14 am

Amwest:


I was on a routing starting in Kingston Ontario-I had two hours to make the connection in YYZ-and on the schedule one and a half hours in Chicago-why did I not stop in YYZ if it was gonna be close? Well gee- I guess I didn't want to go back through Customs-and see if I could get on a morning flight. And it sure did seem reasonable to me that I would make the connection in ORD under the circumstances.

I think your attittude is one I see in a large minority of airline personnel. I had a routing with plenty of connection time-Simply waitng for a few minutes would have solved the problem for me without inconveneinceing anyone-because the flight I was gonna take arrive 10 minutes early in STL anyway.

I understand that one can't expect the world to stop for a single passenger-here-where I was code shared-and by the way checked in from my computer with boarding pass in hand can't you admit that this is one situation where just maybe United made the wrong decision.

I do agree with other posters that connecting in general in ORD is nuts and something which should be avoided at all costs.
 
Tango-Bravo
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:30 am

Quoting Ultrapig (Thread starter):
I was connecting on a code share-and it was the last flight of the day (could have understood it if it were not)-I went back to AC which they were prepared for me and had my new flight for this am ready and a hotel-in other words they knew I would miss it-and said "United doesn't hold flights"


United has the right to have any policy it wants-just let people know.

Your experience has a very easy explanation: "code-share." Which is anything but the "seamless" travel experience promoted by participating airlines. Yes, it can and does work as advertised most of the time, but when it doesn't it gets ugly -- much uglier than your experience in all too many instances when two (or more) airlines posing as one, based on "same airline" flight numbers, play the game of passing the proverbial buck between themselves, with little if any regard for the customer caught in the middle.

Airlines have more than enough issues with accurate, reliable communications between their own staff within the same location; the issue becomes magnified in communications between staff of the same airline in different locations and even more so between the staff of two different airlines posing as one.
 
ultrapig
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:34 am

You are correct sir!
 
reyes27
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:48 am

Quoting Amwest2United (Reply 15):
I have a question??? WHY would anyone get on a plane knowing full well they are going to miss thier connection and expect that the plane would be there. If the flight is late, stay put, get rebooked for the next flight available. But don't expect to get to a hub and be taken care of.

Really how can customers expect customer service...damn them
 
UA772IAD
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:01 am

I've had flights held for me returning to the US (from FRA), But I agree with Halls, if it effects operations on the arrivals side, then no they will not wait. I don't know about other airlines, but on UA they emphasize that the door closes 10 minutes befor the scheduled departure time.
 
ultrapig
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:09 am

Those of you who don't get my point don't get it that ORD was pretty quiet by 10 pm last night-the scheduled time to STL has lots of fluff in it and STL is a ghost town by 11:30 so closing the door early only made the flight come in earlier than scheduled
 
ANNOYEDFA
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:10 am

There is no reason to inconvinence the 100+ other passengers on the plane. I giggle when people ask to call ahead to "hold" the plane. I mean people get real, if you take the last available flight to make your connection then you run the risk of misconnecting. We don't hold flights unless we are already delayed OR it's a large group of international conenctions and that is for a minutes time.
"TWA... One Mission, Yours."
 
tcfc424
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:17 am

I think that a lot of times it has to do with the DBC. It is less expensive to place a pax in a hotel overnight than to pay denied boarding charges, and many times in tight connection situations, if they know a flight is coming in late with 2-3 pax on a full flight, they will give the seats away and send the aircraft off, leaving the 2-3 pax.

This happened to my wife and I and another couple flying UA from RNO-DEN-AUS. We arrived 15 minutes prior to our outbound flight's departure, the gate agent's virtually blocked us from attempting to make our connection, saying the plane had already departed (however our bags made it somehow????)

That was a customer service nightmare with UA. A few of the other circumstances:
1) Incoming flight (from SFO) was delayed ~1.5 hours due to "ATC Hold"
2) Next day, the status of that flight showed delayed due to "Aircraft Servicing"
3) Onboard crew (originated in SFO...no crew change in RNO---I watched all actions) stated ATC as reason for delay.
4) Halfway through the flight the FA announced that because it was ATC and outside of UA control, no one would make connections (except ORD bound pax ~30) and UA would not pay for anything.
5) Gate agent virtually blocked us from attempting to make our connection (15 minutes prior to departure time---3 gates away)
6) Realized the delay WAS their fault and set us up in a hotel...one the WEST side of DEN (I lived there...hotel was past Mile High Stadium!)
7) Arrived at hotel at 12:35 am, outbound shuttle 4:25 am!

It was a nightmare, however I thought UA had changed some...maybe not.
 
B777-700
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting Congaboy (Reply 2):
I had a similar experience in SLC with DL...I was livid, because I also asked DL to advise the upstation of late arrival.

Delta in SLC is well aware of misconnecting pax.

Quoting Congaboy (Reply 2):
I believe carriers will purposefully close the flight when the flight may be completely full...that way, they avoid any DBC expenses by falling on the policy of "closing the flight 10 minutes before departure".

You believe wrong. It takes about 10 minutes to close a flight out, and make sure it leaves on time.

Quoting Congaboy (Reply 2):
The other issue is, of course, on time departure. Airlines, I believe, publish flight times with a great amount of padding for ground time/taxi time, especially at a place like ORD.

...and?

Quoting CP744 (Reply 10):
Don't know about UA, but with us, it does effect the first departure the next morning, it has to do with the amount of crew rest required by Transport Canada. Head start flights that are late really screw up the day!



Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 16):
Crew hours or scheduled mx could have been a deal there...



Quoting Laxintl (Reply 18):
One thing to consider from an airlines point of view, are the bigger DOT ontime numbers.



Quoting IAHcsr (Reply 24):
There is some safety in numbers....

All of the above are the major factors.

It's just always been funny to me...people get upset when their flight is late...and get upset when you wont hold a plane for them when they are late!  Wink
If you don't chew Big Red, then @#$% you.
 
ultrapig
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:39 am

BTW I just checked The plane is shown as having left the gate at 10:20. I was absolutely positively there at 10:15. You tell me how that makes any sense! Oh and yea I'm not excited when my plane gets held for conencting passengers but I understand-and I certainly woudn't bitch about ten minutes.
 
gregarious119
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:39 am

Quoting Ejmmsu (Reply 6):
NW often holds flights at MEM during their evening bank for 5-10 minutes for connections.



Quoting IAHcsr (Reply 24):
There is some safety in numbers.... If a departing flight is missing a larger number of connecting customers .. say 7 or more, from a late arrival or arrivals, they are much more likely to be given a hold

NW has also made exceptions for us in the middle of the day at DTW. They knew our DAY-DTW flight was late due to wx and the 5-6 of us that were connecting to PHL would be running up in a huff (the underground tunnel is pretty long when you jog it  Smile ).

They greeted us with smiles and shut the door right behind us. Of course the pax probably weren't totally pleased, but we made it none the less.

Thanks NW!
 
ShowerOfSparks
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting Ultrapig (Thread starter):
I get off the plane at 10:07 for a 10:20 flight to STL-walked very fast a relatively short distance-STL flight still showing as boarding and its not 10:20-gate agent says flight is gone they closed it at 10:10.

See there's your problem, you didn't run  Smile

But seriously, on the last flight of the day there could be a number of issues.

Curfew at destination.

More likely crew duty time limits. There may be a need to get the crew there so they'll have sufficient rest time to be able to start the next day on time.
 
VEEREF
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 4:34 am

Quoting Nudelhirsch (Reply 16):
Crew hours or scheduled mx could have been a deal there...

Also this can be a factor for the next day. If crew rest at the outstation is already short, a late arrival could delay the next morning's outbound and cause further misconnects. As bad as it sounds, you were the "sacrifice" so that many others could stay on time.
A matter of damage control. At least AC was there for you.
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.
 
sllevin
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:37 am

Quoting Ultrapig (Thread starter):
I know this is not WN's policy or AA's policy having had similar situations ont he last flight through Chciago in the last year.

I know it sucks to have missed something like that. But I think that if you randomly have it happen 100 times on each airline, you'll find that on average they "do the nasty" to you about the same number of times.

On a very specific route your results could vary (because 1 airline might always be scheduling its crew to the end of their duty time on that leg), but if you do it overall, you'll find that everyone sucks  Smile

Steve
 
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yellowtail
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:54 am

I have had this happen to me (and 20 or so other pax) getting off a late MSY-IAD flight....we were mostly all Business Class going to LHR..some onward to DXB.....flight was still at the gate, but they did not let us on.....

I cancelled my 2 day trip and went back to MSY..never to fly united agian.


I worte a post on in in a.net somewhere.
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JetBlueGuy2006
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:58 am

This happened to me recently on Airtran. My brother and I were flying home and we were delayed getting out of NewPort News because of not enough ground personal with 3 delayed FL flights coming in. We got to ATL 15 minutes before our next departure (should have been upwards of an hour) but we sat on the apron for 30 minutes.

We missed that one and lucky they had one 5 hours later which was the last of the night and we were delayed 10-15 waiting for connecting passengers going to FNT of all places. We made it there a couple minutes late from that flight although we should have been there 5 hours earlier.
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ultrapig
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:13 am

Thanks for all your comments-I think most of us agree-you need to expect some problems (by the way on my outbound flight I had 2 hours to make a connection in yyz and missed it because the outbound flight was 1.5 hours late-I didn't expect them to hold the connector for half an hour because there was another in two hours)
1. A policy from each Airline disclsed on its website about holding last flights.
2. A distinct policy on holding last flgihts of the day
3. Accurate information from airline personnel so we know whether to get on the plane or not.
4. Compensation and accomadations if the last flight is not held for a minimal amount of time
 
DualQual
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:34 am

Something else to consider in the hold vs. go debate is not just crew rest for the return the next day but crew duty day on the outbound in question. On some crew rotations the crew may have only a few minutes to get off of the gate and complete the flight within federal time limits. That is to say, it is possible that the crew that was operating the flight was on a re-route and had to be off of the gate on time to legally operate the flight. Any delay and now instead of at least getting 99% of the pax out you don't get anyone where they want or need to go.
There's no known cure for stupid
 
flydreamliner
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:40 am

Whenever I transfer in ORD (or for instance, DFW, ATL, etc) I leave at least an hour and a half time in between. I agree with the notion that transfering in CVG, CLE, MSP, STL, IAH, etc, is smarter. MSP for instance, is better at getting flights out in all weather conditions than any major airport I've ever seen. 103 degree heat, rain, wind, snow, ice, they keep the take-offs going. ORD is fun to visit, but if it can be avoided for transfers, I avoid it.

I was under the impression they never really held airplanes. If the airplane was late and you made it on, they'd tell you it was held for you, but really, holding a plane full of people, possibly jeopardizing their transfers, and tossing off the entire grid for one person's convenience, just not going to happen.

And really, your AC flight being late, not UA, is what caused your issue. I feel for you though, I've been stuck in a hotel overnight in ORD before, it's not fun. Did they put you up in the Ramada? Lol
"Let the world change you, and you can change the world"
 
ckfred
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:43 am

I've know that AA will hold flights, regardless of the time of day, if there are enough people that makes rebooking difficult.

Back when RDU was a hub, my parents were connecting from ORD to RSW. The RSW departure was held 10 minutes, because there were 10 or so passengers connecting from a late flight from PVD. AA even changed the PVD's flight gate to put it next to the RSW departure, so that connecting time for passengers and bags was minimized.

I was once on a ORD-BOS that was late, due to the plane coming in very late from SNA. It had snowed at ORD for the better part of the day, so everything was late. Our plane actually diverted to MSP to refuel before landing at ORD.

Now, the next departure for BOS was running on time and about 10 minutes behind us, but my guess is that the flight became full, because after closing the door and retracting the jet bridge, the gate agent extended the jet bridge and put on two more passengers.

The captain wasn't happy, but I don't blame him. By the time we were wheels up, we should have been starting our descent into BOS. The entire crew was having a very long day.

Finally, I was waiting for a LGA departure at ORD, and the gate agent was closing the only departure for JAC. The weather at ORD was clear, although gusty winds had set up an abnormal runway configuration causing delays, and it had snowed from Washington to Boston.

I could hear people running and watched two people trying to make the JAC flight. One yelled, "There are 8 more of us from Newark, but they can't run as fast!" So, one agent propped the door open, and the other went on to tell the captain that there would be a wait.
 
flightopsguy
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:53 am

Quoting ShowerOfSparks (Reply 36):
More likely crew duty time limits. There may be a need to get the crew there so they'll have sufficient rest time to be able to start the next day on time.

It's not only the crew rest turnaround time, but also the accumulated time that day. An FAA decision a couple of years ago changed these rules, where you now must be off the ground by the crew "drop dead" time, or the crew is obligated by regulation to return to the gate and walk off. There is no way around this, even by a minute. So holding the flight even 5-10 mins could cause that crew to go illegal, and that would cancel the flight, figuring that at the end of the operating day a reserve crew would be hard to come by.
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jkudall
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:10 am

Asking a gate agent to let the down-line station know your plane is coming in late and they will have a tight connection is really not necessary. The down-line station (the connecting city) is well aware of what flights are coming in late. The agent may indeed call the down-line station, but them doing so is really not going to make any difference on the decision making on whether or not the flight actually holds. A lot goes into that kind of decision. It's not like the gate agent just does whatever they feel like. People don't realize that it is a big deal to hold flights and an even bigger deal if the planes go out late. At the airline I work for, if the flight goes out even one minute late, you have better got a really good reason why or else you can get in trouble.

When I work flights, my computer gives me an up to date list of inbound connecting flights with their ETA's. I can easily see what flights are on-time, what flights are going to have tight connections, and what flights are going to misconnect.

The decision to hold really depends on a lot of different factors, mostly including whether or not there is availability on the next available flight(s). But many other factors go into that decision such as crew rest issues, airport curfews, and passengers making down line connections (we don't want to misconnect more people). Also the time it will take to connect the passengers bags. Sometimes we can get the passengers over within a few minutes but it can take up to twenty minutes for their bags to show up to the flight, especially if they are coming off a wide-body aircraft.

My airline is very strict about on-time departures. Basically if the plane is able to make an on-time departure, then it has to leave on-time and not a minute late. However, rare exceptions can be made but it is a big deal. Most often, we have to call our flight dispatch and they have to amend the departure time on the flight plan.

And like I said, the decision to hold is rarely on the part of the gate agent. For me, I have to get approval to hold through our coordination tower. They are responsible for IROP (Irregular Operations) and are the ones (along with dispatch) who look at all aspects as to whether or not the flight should be held.

I know it sucks for the passenger who misses their flight. I have been in the same situation before as a revenue passenger on more than one occcasion. But you have to realize that holding flights for people only creates more delays and thus more misconnects. That is why my airline stresses that if a flight can depart on time, it must depart on time. Furthermore, airlines must remain consistent with their policies. If they are inconsistent, passengers are just going to expect rules to be bent on a regular basis.

As for the 10 minute cut-off, believe it or not there is a lot that needs to be done in between the time the gate closes and the door of the aircraft closes. Passenger counts need to be taken, the flight attendants need to verify the count, and a final bag/cargo weight needs to be assessed. Not to mention the time it takes for all the passengers to get settled in their seats. After this is done, the pilots need several minutes to input this into their flight computer and complete the manifest.

Trust me, misconnecting passengers is by far the worst part of being a gate agent. I hate it. I wish all flights were always on time and nobody ever misconnected, but delays happen.

A lot more than what I have discussed goes into the decision-making process. The point of my post was just to let you know that it is a bigger deal than one might think.
 
jetdeltamsy
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:54 am

Quoting Ultrapig (Thread starter):
I know this is not WN's policy or AA's policy having had similar situations

I don't know anything about Southwest's policy, but you are 100% mistaken about American's policy. American does not hold flights, per se, unless one of the misconnects is an unaccompanied minor, a disabled passenger or a VIP...i mean a real VIP...beyond Executive Platinum status.

They determined a few years ago that it is worth leaving people behind to keep the reportable on-time figures as high as possible.
Tired of airline bankruptcies....EA/PA/TW and finally DL.
 
Ralgha
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:02 am

If one person is late, they're probably not going to hold the flight for you. They may, but don't count on it. Doesn't matter if it's the last flight of the night or not, often there are crew rest and duty requirements to consider. I have nearly dutied out before, and the choice is go and leave someone behind, or cancel the flight altogether and leave everyone behind.
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phelpsie87
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RE: United Won't Hold Last Flights Out Of ORD

Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:34 am

As a SkyWest CSA, I can tell you the only times we have held up a flight is if there is something major effecting many pax. For example, today there was a 5 car pile up on the highway and we kept the ticket counter open an extra 10 mins so more people could get a chance to make their flight.

I hate to break it to you, but we won't usually delay a flight for one person, even though it may seem unfair to you, it is also unfair to the pax already on board. Like already stated, the last flight is just as important as any other. The night ground crews need to get things done and a late flight can really mess with their plans.

By the way, did you UA get you a hotel?