rootsair
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Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:57 am

As you know, when any aircraft manufacturer launches a new model (E.g Airbus, Boieng, etc), many tests have to be undergone by the aircraft before it recieves certification.

Would anyone here be able to tell me if some model has had to be aborted because it did not recieve certification or if there is one that has particularly lots of trouble getting it?

Thanks in advance

BM

[Edited 2006-08-01 20:57:58]
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KELPkid
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 6:34 am

The AASI JetCruzer comes to mind...despite many efforts in the area of certification, the company, in short order:
1) failed to certify the JetCruzer
2) Bought Mooney Aerospace
3) renamed themselves Mooney Aerospace
4) re-located from Southern California to Kerrville, TX (home of the Mooney factory)
5) put all rights, production tooling, etc. for the Jetcruzer up for sale (and, as far as I know, no one ever bought it  Wink ).

It was a pretty ugly aircraft-it was a cabin-class, single engine turboprop (Pratt & Whitney PT6) pusher with a canard wing arangement.
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kbfispotter
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 7:02 am

The VisionAir Vantage comes to mind. It was a single engine biz jet designed for VisionAir by Burt Rutan's Scaled Composites.

The Fairchild Dornier 728 also comes to mind. A prototype was build, but it never flew due to financial problems within the company.

Then there is also the Safire Jet. It was an entry into the VLJ market, and had poor management.

Kris
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citationjet
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certificatio

Wed Aug 02, 2006 8:35 am

The original Swearingen SA-30 was originally announced in about 1986, as a direct competitor to the Citation 525 CitationJet. The prototype first flew in 1991. I believe that the SJ-30 received FAA TC on October 27, 2005, but without flight into known icing.

As a comparison, Cessna announced the CitationJet in 1989, certified in 1992, and has delivered over 1,000 aircraft to date.

http://www.sj30jet.com/news/News%20R...eases/2005/mar_06_icing_tests.html

http://www.airliners.net/info/stats.main?id=363

[Edited 2006-08-02 01:37:22]
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Gr8Circle
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:48 pm

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

The A380....?  duck 
 
don81603
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 4):
The A380....?

Technically correct, but a gutsy statement.  biggrin 
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bennett123
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Wed Aug 02, 2006 10:25 pm

How about the B787  Smile
 
don81603
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:28 am

Big version: Width: 677 Height: 250 File size: 34kb

Would have been nice to see, though...
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787engineer
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 6):
How about the B787 Smile

Planes generally have to fly first before they can be certified  Wink. The B787 hasn't even been rolled out. The A380 first took to the skies over 15 months ago.
 
MechEngineer
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:44 am

The Indonesian N250 turboprop, that a crowd of contract engineers built for Suharto. It was certified for inland use, but there was no proper paperwork for certification by FAA et al.
The contractors shrugged and went home.
Heavier-than-air flying machines...
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:18 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 6):
How about the B787

The 787 is not even a n aircraft yet ..... still on the drawing boards....so does not compare with the 380....

I'm sure it will certify smoothly as compared to .... oh, well...let's see.... Big grin
 
MEA-707
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:49 am

the BAe 146 RJX85 and RJX100 series.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Derek Ferguson

A prototype of both has flown for tests and at airshows, but due to the depressed market, BAe didn't continue to get it certified for service and cancelled building it. It has major differences compared to the ARJs, new engines and so on. FlyBe and Druk Air actually ordered it but saw these cancelled and ordered they took Embraers and A-319s instead.
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DAYflyer
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:05 am

I dont think the DO-428 or 528 jets were ever built or certified.
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connies4ever
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:14 am

Avro C-102 Jetliner ? (most unfortunately, too)
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
FireFly
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:24 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 11):
the BAe 146 RJX85 and RJX100 series.

Thanks for that photo - first time I've seen that stocky airplane!
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emseeeye
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:29 am

I dont know about the certification process but a 2 engine version of the Lockheed Jetstar was developed. The "Fanstar" actually flew. Check this thread for more info:
RE: Question For The Aeronautical Engineers ... (by SlamClick Jul 21 2006 in Tech Ops)#ID161136
 
WesternA318
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:30 am

An RJX100 wouldve been awesome to see...
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bohica
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 9:38 am

Out of curiousity, What type of engines were on the RJX85 and RJX 100?
 
bennett123
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:14 pm

WesternA318

There is G-IRJX at the Aviation Viewing Park at MAN.

Well worth a visit if you are in the UK.
 
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AirIndia
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:23 pm

what about the TU 144?
 
TriStar500
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:28 pm

Quoting AirIndia (Reply 19):
what about the TU 144?

Was certified and operating regular passenger flights within the USSR.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
kbfispotter
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:03 pm

Quoting EmSeeEye (Reply 15):
I dont know about the certification process but a 2 engine version of the Lockheed Jetstar was developed. The "Fanstar" actually flew. Check this thread for more info:

The original twin engine Jetstar was actually the first two prototypes. When originally designed by Kelly Johnson, he used what was then the superior Bristol Siddeley Orpheus engines. When the Skunk Works handed the Model 1329 over to the Marrieta Division, it was retrofitted with the four P&W JT12 engines due both to a competition for a Presidential VIP aircraft, and due to political reasons. From what I understand, Kelly was not happy with this change at all (his personal log even states this fact). Upon completion of the Certification trials, the first Jetstar was retained by Johnson for use as an executive transport before being donated to the British Columbia Institute of Technology in Vancuver, BC in 1982. Twenty three years later, in 2005, it was donated to the Seattle Musuem of Flight, and transported to the museum's restoration facility in Everett in April of this year. It will be restored and placed on display at the main museum complex at BFI in the near future.

I will admit, I never heard of the FanStar project. I must say, wow... it was a good looking plane!

Kris
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emseeeye
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:33 pm

Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 21):
The original twin engine Jetstar was actually the first two prototypes. When originally designed by Kelly Johnson, he used what was then the superior Bristol Siddeley Orpheus engines. When the Skunk Works handed the Model 1329 over to the Marrieta Division, it was retrofitted with the four P&W JT12 engines due both to a competition for a Presidential VIP aircraft, and due to political reasons. From what I understand, Kelly was not happy with this change at all (his personal log even states this fact). Upon completion of the Certification trials, the first Jetstar was retained by Johnson for use as an executive transport before being donated to the British Columbia Institute of Technology in Vancuver, BC in 1982. Twenty three years later, in 2005, it was donated to the Seattle Musuem of Flight, and transported to the museum's restoration facility in Everett in April of this year. It will be restored and placed on display at the main museum complex at BFI in the near future.

I will admit, I never heard of the FanStar project. I must say, wow... it was a good looking plane!

You are correct. I forgot all about the initial Bristol engines. I did get to see the Fanstar in person however I was too young to appreciate it at the time. My Father who was a Jetstar man was pretty excited about the project however it was doomed from the start. So he says.

Its too bad the Jetstar was cancelled. It was a gas guzzling pig but I think the airframe and engines could have been enhanced by later models. Oh well.
 
Aviator27
Posts: 332
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:13 am

The Spruce Goose? One of aviations biggest failure. Actually a lot of new technologies came out of the development of that airplane. Hydraulic actuated flight controls is one big innovation that comes to mind.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:40 am

Quoting Aviator27 (Reply 23):
The Spruce Goose? One of aviations biggest failure. Actually a lot of new technologies came out of the development of that airplane. Hydraulic actuated flight controls is one big innovation that comes to mind.

AFAIK, it was never intended for certification, but rather for usage as a military transport.
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aeroweanie
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:36 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
1) failed to certify the JetCruzer

Wrong - FAA TC A49NM was issued June 14, 1994
 
KELPkid
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 25):
Wrong - FAA TC A49NM was issued June 14, 1994

Going on memory here...(magazine articles in Flying, AOPA pilot, etc), so I may or may not be wrong (correct as necessary):

Marketing decided the original design was too small, so they decided to seek certification of a stretched version, rather than go into production with the original design, and that is where the design died.

Wasn't AASI at one time claiming over 100 orders for the JetCruzer? You'd think that would be the impetus for going ahead with type production.
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KELPkid
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:32 am

Quoting AeroWeanie (Reply 25):
Wrong - FAA TC A49NM was issued June 14, 1994

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AASI_Jetcruzer_500 :

Quote:
Work on the Jetcruzer began in March 1983, with the prototype first flying on January 11 1989. This initial version, designated the Jetcruzer 450 seated six people (including the pilot) and was powered by an Allison 250-C20S. It gained an FAA type certification on June 14 1994. Three prototypes were built, but AASI chose not to market this aircraft, in order to focus on more advanced versions. A spin recovery system was designed for the aircraft by Butler Parachute Systems which also worked on one for the Swearingen SJ-30.
[edit]

Jetcruzer 500

The first of these was the Jetcruzer 500, a slightly stretched version of the 450 powered by a Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-66A and featuring cabin pressurization. Two of the 450 prototypes were converted to this configuration, and first flew in this form on August 22 1997. This was the version selected for production, and at one point, AASI had orders for some 200 aircraft at $US 1.6 million each. A military version, the ML-2 had also been offered, as well as a UAV, the ML-1

None of these orders would be filled, however, as the Jetcruzer 500 remained uncertified and its development slowly stagnated. Specific problems with the aircraft's noise, high stall speed, and center-of-gravity were not overcome before all work on it was suspended in 2002. Nearly 20 years of work had still not resulted in a marketable aircraft.
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gaut
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certificatio

Fri Aug 04, 2006 5:22 am

Quoting Bohica (Reply 17):
Out of curiousity, What type of engines were on the RJX85 and RJX 100?

The RJX was powered by Honeywell AS977 turbofans (6500 to 7500 Lbs of thrust). This engine was part of the AS900 family and also included the AS907.

The AS907 is currently known as HTF7000 and powers the Bombardier Challenger 300.

Gaut
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comet4b
Posts: 59
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 8:17 am

Bristol Brabazon and the Princess flying boat. Both great big planes and great big failures.
 
kl671
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:44 am

The Lear Fan was the first modern composite aircraft to come across the FAA's desk. Its extensive development program solved many of the problems associated with the use of these materials. However it was too revolutionary for its time and failed to receive certification because of the uncertainties and lack of industry experience with all composite aircraft.

IIRC there were also issues with gaining a twin engine approval with the use of two turbines driving a single pusher prop through a combining gearbox.

A beautiful aircraft. It is a pity there are none flying today.


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baron95
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:56 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 27):
Wrong - FAA TC A49NM was issued June 14, 1994



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
AASI JetCruzer comes to mind

I think you are both correct. IIRC the Jetcruiser 450 unpressurized was certified but never offered for sale. The Jetcruiser 500 (pressurized and offered for sale) never achieved certification.
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bohica
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:16 pm

Quoting Gaut (Reply 28):
The RJX was powered by Honeywell AS977 turbofans (6500 to 7500 Lbs of thrust). This engine was part of the AS900 family and also included the AS907.

The AS907 is currently known as HTF7000 and powers the Bombardier Challenger 300.

Thanks.

Quoting Kl671 (Reply 30):
The Lear Fan......IIRC there were also issues with gaining a twin engine approval with the use of two turbines driving a single pusher prop through a combining gearbox.

A beautiful aircraft. It is a pity there are none flying today.

It is a very nice looking plane. I once got to see it fly a demonstration at the Reno air races. It has to be the loudest propeller driven aircraft ever.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:01 pm

The US Army just knocked the C-130J out of their JCA competition citing that it wasn't FAA certified (only USAF certified) and that that was one of their criteria;LM was no doubt unhappy and probably the USAF as well with the decision!
 
sllevin
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:45 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 1):
The AASI JetCruzer comes to mind



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 26):
Marketing decided the original design was too small,

I think pressurization was really the factor here. But while they were at it, they looked at making it bigger and going to a PT-6 instad of the Allison.

Steve
 
bohica
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:17 pm

I don't believe the Old Man's Aircraft Company's OMAC ever was certified.
http://www.hrunway.com/omac1gweb.jpg
 
RichPhitzwell
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:26 pm

What about large 100+ planes? Im sure there are plenty of small planes as stated above but what bout the large multi million invested in planes?
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787kq
Posts: 377
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RE: Which Aircraft Has Never Achieved Certification?

Thu Aug 17, 2006 6:44 pm

Probably the Fairchild Dornier 728 Jet.

http://www.aerospace-technology.com/projects/728jet/

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