SonicAirlines
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New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:16 am

Hi Team,
There have been many rumours over the past year or two of carriers intending to service Australia in some capacity in the future.
Does anyone have an info of those that intend to ? I've heard a few names floating around like Lufthansa, Jet Airways, Etihad, Lion Air, Qatar.
We have lost EVA recently and will soon lose Austrian, would love to see some new airlines coming to AUS one day soon.
Bring Back The Tri-Jets !
 
jupiter2
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:10 pm

"We" haven't totally lost BR yet, they still serve Brisbane.

As for the airlines you mention, Qatar were recently knocked back by the government, Etihad are a possibility, atlthough if QR got knocked back I can't see how EY would succeed in getting flights.

Lion Air would only hasten their own demise, there is very little money to be made hauling tourists to Bali from Australia. Jet Airways would be nice, but the QF direct flights to Mumbai don't appear to be going gang busters and there are a ton of connections you can do via SIN and KUL to India.

Lufthansa I personally reckon are a strong candidate. Either with 380's or with Condor doing a two class service for them with 767's and later with whatever they order in the mid size twin market. There are still a lot of Europeans flying to Australia and the seat economics of the 380 and indeed the 748 may make it viable to send their own metal once again. While they offer a crap load of flights via SQ/TG/OS the withdrawal of OS and the continued growth in the market, albeit at relatively low yields, will hopefully see them return to Australia, sooner rather than later.

Also while we have lost a lot of Eurpoean carriers in recent times, we have gained a lot of Asian, South American and Middle East airlines.

RL
 
American777
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:26 pm

I know AA has a strong operation in Australia with code-sharing from QF, but I would love for AA to start non-stop with their 777-200ER's from DFW to SYD.
I have made 2 trips before to SYD and I had to stop in LAX the first time and SFO the second time. And I am going to Australia again in November and I bet if AA started non-stop flights between both cities it would be very neat. So I hope AA can start that route soon as they are expanding their international network.

JOE.  Sad
 
travel
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 1:29 pm

Can anyone explain why Qatar got knocked back?
 
jupiter2
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 2:07 pm

QR got knocked back because their business case basically didn't stand up. The benefits they were claiming to the Australian economy, ie: more bums on seats to Australia to spend their money, was seen as simply cashing in on the EK plan and that they would only take passengers away from the incumbent airlines and not generate significant "new" traffic.

It really is hard to argue against the government decision, unless of course you are looking for cheap airfares to Europe via the Middle East as opposed to Asia. There are stacks of carriers offering near identical services from Australia to Europe and QR were seen to just be jumping on the band wagon to poach other airlines passengers and to be seen to be competing with EK.

Personally I would like to see them here, only because I am selfish and want more airlines here to photograph.

RL
 
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alaskaqantas
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:58 pm

hia-

Quoting American777 (Reply 2):
I bet if AA started non-stop flights between both cities it would be very neat. So I hope AA can start that route soon as they are expanding their international network.

One thing is that AA does codeshare, as you said. So if they stoped codesharing and started to go down there, they would be in competion with QF, wich wouldn't be good for their partnership. So I'd say that AA won't be going down there anytime soon.

Australia has a good amount of airlines going in and out, and you don't want too many airlines coming in or else non of them will be maknig any money. The Austrailian government I guess knows what its doing... although it would be cool to get QATAR!!  Smile
Anyways, I wonder who will be the lucky airline/s to get in?
~Cheers-
~~Kyle H.
to some people the sky is the limit, to aviation enthusiasts, its home!
 
American777
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:28 pm

Quoting Alaskaqantas (Reply 5):
So if they stopped codesharing and started to go down there, they would be in competition with QF, which wouldn't be good for their partnership.

I been quite upset with QF because they were looking for a long range airliner that could fly SYD-LHR non-stop and that plane is available and they haven't ordered it yet! Yes, the 777-200LR was also offered to QF by reducing its weight by 7 tons! That is quite a difference and I bet QF can start doing the SYD-LHR route with no problems at all non-stop. Also QF does not fly to DFW, so how is it going to compete with AA on non-stop flights from DFW to SYD? AA can fly that route with their 777-200ER's they own right now.

JOE.  Sad
 
planemanofnz
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:28 pm

Quoting Jupiter2 (Reply 1):
we have gained a lot of Asian, South American and Middle East airlines.

You only have 2 South American and 2 Middle Eastern Airlines.

That being said, I do see Ana, Lufthansa and Sri Lankan coming next year or the year after to Australia.
 
CXA330300
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:42 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 7):
That being said, I do see Ana, Lufthansa and Sri Lankan coming next year or the year after to Australia.

Didn't ANA once serve SYD? Will they restart? I remember a thread on this recently..............
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
ZRH
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:42 pm

Quoting Jupiter2 (Reply 1):
Lufthansa I personally reckon are a strong candidate

This is wishful thinking. Forget LH. In our days it is simply much more economical for European airlines to transfer their passenger to alliance partners in SIN, BKK or KUL. In case of LH to SQ or TG. When they use their own metal to Australia they need at least two more airframes to fly daily in comparison to when they only fly to SIN, BKK etc. LH does not have these spare aircrafts.
 
xiaotung
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:47 pm

Shanghai Airlines are looking at Brisbane, although don't expect that to happen any time soon.
 
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alaskaqantas
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:16 pm

Quoting American777 (Reply 6):
so how is it going to compete with AA on non-stop flights from DFW to SYD?

they code share the flights from LAX-SYD and then people can fly with AA to Dallas, i'm just saying that I don't know if there would be much of a profit for AA to go from Dallas-SYD when some one could fly over to LAX and go down on QF, which is a nicer airline. I'm not trying to be mean to AA, but in all reality airlines in America just don't add up to asian/European and australian/New Zealand airlines.

Nothing against you or AA, its just that with codesharing and the fact that Dallas might not have a big population of people wanting to go to Australia and visa vera, it just seems more profitable to send people on AA over to LAX then on QF down to SYD. oh well I guess time will show!

Quoting ZRH (Reply 9):

This is wishful thinking. Forget LH. In our days it is simply much more economical for European airlines to transfer their passenger to alliance partners in SIN, BKK or KUL. In case of LH to SQ or TG. When they use their own metal to Australia they need at least two more airframes to fly daily in comparison to when they only fly to SIN, BKK etc.

this is true... and can be used in the same instence of AA down to auzy.
~Cheers-
~~Kyle H.
to some people the sky is the limit, to aviation enthusiasts, its home!
 
Gemuser
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:22 pm

Quoting American777 (Reply 6):
I been quite upset with QF because they were looking for a long range airliner that could fly SYD-LHR non-stop and that plane is available and they haven't ordered it yet!

The currently offered B777LR WILL NOT do SYD-LHR non stop, economically.

Quoting American777 (Reply 6):
, the 777-200LR was also offered to QF by reducing its weight by 7 tons! That is quite a difference and I bet QF can start doing the SYD-LHR route with no problems at all non-stop.

This has NOT happened yet! Both QF & Boeing are working on it, but Boeing, to the best of public knowledge, has NOT OFFERED to produce the lighter version. Even with the lighter version it is NOT clear that SYD-LHR is doable to QF requirements.

Quoting American777 (Reply 6):
Also QF does not fly to DFW, so how is it going to compete with AA on non-stop flights from DFW to SYD? AA can fly that route with their 777-200ER's they own right now.

AA B777-200ERs CANNOT do DFW-SYD with any sort of reasonabl payload. As well AA do not have enough 772s to do it and if they did they could probabley make MORE money using them some where else!

QF are planning SYD-DFW-SYD as soon as there is a suitable aircraft. Which maybe the 772LR, the 787 or even, god help you, the A380.

Gemuser
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ZRH
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:29 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 12):
The currently offered B777LR WILL NOT do SYD-LHR non stop, economically.

This is correct. She could fly this route non-stop but not with an economical reasonable payload. When and if an airline in the near future will fly this route non-stop they probably have to go for an only business seating (and perhaps first). Imagine the horror to fly such a long time in the usual sardine cans of our days. I never ever would do this.
 
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eta unknown
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:53 am

AA closed their Australian reservations center in North Sydney last month and they make too much money codesharing with QF.

LH- no way will return- their own SYD based staff admit it.

QR never had a chance- even with a 3x MEL service. EY however might be a different case- Canberra might like an EK-EY fight!
 
B787
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:38 am

I guess another aspect to this question is what existing airlines are expanding or reducing their capacity, frequency and/or ports served here.

I know BA have stopped flying to MEL (which was a suprise to me as the flights to/from Mel that I was on were always full)

I think CX have just cut back some capacity. Am I right?

AC are growing with their intended flights from YYZ via LAX

JQ are adding new cities served from Australia

NZ have added ADL recently

DJ are looking at fying to the States.

What else?
 
Motorhussy
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:56 am

Air India (AI) I'd have thought would be a strong contender for a return to SYD.

Regards
MH
come visit the south pacific
 
jupiter2
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:17 am

Planemanofnz, yes we only have 2 Middle Eastern and 2 South American carriers, but I can remember when there were none !! There were no Korean carriers, no Chinese carriers, only FJ from the Pacific Island nations, the only freighters we saw were Flying Tigers or Pan Am and they were usually charters.

So while we have lost a lot of airlines over the years we have gained quite a few too, and they operate many, many more flights than when I started getting interested !!

B787,
CX have not cut any capacity recently and are not likely to.

MotorHussy,
Ahhh, the continuing saga of Air India, they should have returned 2 years ago according to them !!!

I want code shares banned !!!!

RL
 
BlueShamu330s
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 7:33 am

As an outsider and observer, I would say one of the most likely candidates would be a SkyTeam member. Afterall, without going via ICN or all points NWA in Asia, how else can a SkyTeam member get to Australasia from the USA without connections and a circuitous route?

Certainly at SYD, OneWorld and Star seem well represented.

My 2c worth.

Shamu
So I drive a 4x4. So what?! Tax the a$$ off me for it...oh, you already have... :-(
 
6thfreedom
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:16 am

Quoting SonicAirlines (Thread starter):
There have been many rumours over the past year or two of carriers intending to service Australia in some capacity in the future.
Does anyone have an info of those that intend to ? I've heard a few names floating around like Lufthansa, Jet Airways, Etihad, Lion Air, Qatar.

QR, EY, UL are all contenders.

Quoting Travel (Reply 3):
Can anyone explain why Qatar got knocked back?



Quoting Jupiter2 (Reply 4):
QR got knocked back because their business case basically didn't stand up. The benefits they were claiming to the Australian economy, ie: more bums on seats to Australia to spend their money, was seen as simply cashing in on the EK plan and that they would only take passengers away from the incumbent airlines and not generate significant "new" traffic.



Quoting B787 (Reply 15):
I think CX have just cut back some capacity. Am I right?

This is absolute crap. Given that the Australian outbound market is relatively small given the small population, Australia has more to gain by making fares to Australia more competitive. This doesn't hurt anyone. Australia's tourism is hurt by the distance to anywhere, and the cost of airfares. By allowing QR to enter Australia, Australia would have gained a net increase in tourists.
"New traffic" for QR would be to increase seat capacity to major markets like the UK, and other European ports, most of which QF DOES NOT serve in its own right.

Unless you actually work in Canberra B787, your comments are very misguided by the endless Bull sh*t that comes out of Canberra and QF!
 
Gemuser
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 8:27 am

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 18):
As an outsider and observer, I would say one of the most likely candidates would be a SkyTeam member.

Most likely? NO! Most needed? YES!

The problem is who? Unless the Virgin Group join Skyteam, which seems unlikely, there is certainly no airline from this part of the world.

Both North American ST members are in Chapter 11. NW tried it before and could not make it work and probabley still cant. Delta have NO presence in the market, most Ozzies & Kiwi would think Delta referred to a bus! ATL is poorly positioned as a hub to serve the South Pacific and for both airlines, even if we assume a return to robust finincial health, they can probable make more money deploying their aircraft elsewhere.

Gemuser
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fuffla
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:06 am

What would the possibilty be of Air France or KLM serving an Australian east coast city. They code-share currently with Air France to Singapore with QF and KLM to Kuala Lumpur with MH. It would be nice to see Skyteam presence in Australia increase with one of these carriers!
 
kmsyd777
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:25 am

Quoting MotorHussy (Reply 16):
Air India (AI) I'd have thought would be a strong contender for a return to SYD

AI are definitely considering returning to SYD but only when they have enough birds ... this should happen sometime next year I reckon... on the issue of 9W comign down under ... I doubt it... 9W and QF have recently applied to IASC for a code-share agreement connecting in SIN - which should come online once 9W launches its direct DEL-SIN flights... this will give QF and 9W a big footprint in either countries... connecting 3 Indian metro cities (BOM, DEL, MAA) with SYD, MEL, Brisbane, ADL and PER...
none of the other indian carriers have the capability to fly long distance at the moment...
Besides these, I remember reading somewhere UL were considering making a comeback to SYD as well... once they get new A340s or A330s on lease (i think)...
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:37 am

Quoting American777 (Reply 2):
I know AA has a strong operation in Australia with code-sharing from QF, but I would love for AA to start non-stop with their 777-200ER's from DFW to SYD.

It's unfortunate 772ERs won't make it, nor would AA fly to Oz with their code-share arrangements with QF, but I would love to see those gorgeous AA 777s here!

Quoting Fuffla (Reply 21):
What would the possibilty be of Air France or KLM serving an Australian east coast city

I doubt any European airline would ever start considering serving any port in Oz ever again. Just doesn't make any economic sense when you're competing with Asian carriers. (Not good for us enthusiasts though, would love to see AF or KL birds here too!)

(Btw, there's a very interesting article in today's Sydney Morning Herald about this whole QF business, some good quotes from various politicians too)
4 Engines 4 LongHaul
 
industrybuff
Posts: 313
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:52 am

checkout the Sydney morning herald today or www.smh.com.au for an interesting article on this topic !
 
keno
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:56 am

http://biz.thestar.com.my/news/story.../26/business/14949619&sec=business

With MH recent suspension of Kuching-Perth, Air Asia made a statement that they are not ruling out taking over this route in the future.
 
airbear
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:36 am

Quoting AlaskaQantas (Reply 5) "The Australian Government knows what its doing I guess..."

You are still young, trusting and perhaps idealistic, my friend, so you can be forgiven. But nothing could be further from the truth! They haven't a clue and hence the QF Board is the de-facto Australian Ministry of Civil Aviation - at least in matters of who flys here and who doesn't and where they fly to or from.

Burn that concept into your mind, and everything else in Australian-International Aviation will fall into place.
 
jupiter2
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:44 am

Airbear,

Perhaps a little strong, but they do seem to be able to "steer" policy if not all the way, then at least a considerable way in the direction they want it !!

Then again, probably no more than a lot of other companies in this country, it is just that aviation is such a high profile industry that whenever QF gets what they want, or don't want for that matter, it is quickly into the greater public domain.

If they really had that much control, then they would own NZ now !!

RL
 
airbear
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:33 pm

Jupiter2 ... yeah, true enough I guess. But even the ANZ shareholding story demonstrates that "The Australian Government" - in this case the ACCC (in common with the NZ Commerce Commission) does NOT know what it is doing, in holding fast to economic (competition) theory when what's going on in the rest of the world - in this case, mergers such as Air France/KLM & USAir/Am.West is the "reality" that will in part determine the futures of QF, NZ and several other airlines.

This is one instance - about the only one I can think of - where it would have been good for QF to have had more influence.
 
B787
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:35 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 19):
Unless you actually work in Canberra B787, your comments are very misguided by the endless Bull sh*t that comes out of Canberra and QF!

6thfreedom what planet are you on? Why don't actualy look at who posts responses before you go about abusing people. All I did was ask if CX have cut capacity to Australia - which after your tyraid you didn't even answer. Grow up!
 
planemanofnz
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:00 pm

I forgot about Air India. I remember them saying that they wanted to fly to SYD a couple of years ago. Apparantley the route was going to be a 310 flying Mumbai-Singapore-Sydney-Auckland, yet they backed out for some reason. Is there actually a big market for India-Australia travel?
 
fuffla
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:15 pm

With the only european carriers flying to Australia being BA (maybe soon to be gone) and VS, and then both of those flying to Sydney, i think it is vital that QF expand further into Europe. EK have the domination on connecting passengers to European countries. They fly to 26 destination while QF only fly to 2. An expansion will be good for QF and the One World alliance. Code-sharing has ruined the chance for international carriers to grab a slice of the Australian outbound and inbound international markets.
 
TWAtwaTWA
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:21 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 30):
I forgot about Air India. I remember them saying that they wanted to fly to SYD a couple of years ago. Apparantley the route was going to be a 310 flying Mumbai-Singapore-Sydney-Auckland, yet they backed out for some reason. Is there actually a big market for India-Australia travel?

Actually Australia and New Zealand are big tourist destination for upper class indians, which are growing by the minute. Several recent indian movies featured Australia and New Zealand prominently.
We're your kind of airline. Uh, I mean, We *were* your kind of airline.
 
HKGKaiTak
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:13 pm

Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 30):
Is there actually a big market for India-Australia travel?

Yes, there are plenty of Aussies of Indian heritage living in Oz, and a lot of Indian tourists now, but then India is such a big place how is one AI (or, for that matter, QF) flight from, for arguments sake, MUM-SYD or DEL-MEL going to be better than SQ/CX/MH offering MUM-BNE via SIN/HKG/KUL? Both are one-stop options but you have to argue that the direct Oz-India flight doesn't make a lot of sense for anyone, which is the same argument against European airlines flying to Oz.

Quoting Airbear (Reply 28):
This is one instance - about the only one I can think of - where it would have been good for QF to have had more influence.

QF shouldn't have influence over the ACCC or any consumer body, which are supposed to be independent. If it was up to the politicians, the merger would probably have happened already, given the power which QF yields in Canberra. I really think too many politicians swallow the QF line too readily, maybe they're just too comfortable in the Qantas Club.

[Edited 2006-08-05 08:14:37]
4 Engines 4 LongHaul
 
airbear
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:32 pm

Fuffla...

YOU know QF should expand in Europe. I know QF should expand in Europe. SQ's, TG's, MH's and EK's AUSSIE PAX know that QF should expand in Europe. But silly us... QF knows that all Europe-bound Aussie pax really only want to go to FRA or even better to LHR to sit around there for hours before flying off for a few more hours, often in the direction they've just come from. When will we paying customers ever get that thru' our thick skulls???


HKGKaiTak ...

"...too many politicians swallow ... too comfy in the QF Club". You've got that 100%right, pal. As for the ACCC ... yes, they are and need to be independent in their decision-making and powers, however it would be nice to see them make decisions based on what is happening in the real world, not the contents of some highly theoretical economics textbook. Just off the topic of aviation for a moment, it would also be lovely to see them apply their energies to important tasks such as taking on the oil companies, rather than prosecuting soft tagets such individual small-business owners.
 
Gemuser
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:02 pm

Quoting Airbear (Reply 34):
YOU know QF should expand in Europe. I know QF should expand in Europe. SQ's, TG's, MH's and EK's AUSSIE PAX know that QF should expand in Europe.

How do you know QF SHOULD expand in Europe? [except Paris, which QF want but the French government wont let them].

The mere fact that SQ, TG, MH, EK do and that some pax want them to, is insufficient. The routes MUST be profitable! You dont, I dont, nobody outside QF, knows what routes will be profitable for them. If Rome was not profitable, then I strongly doubt any where in Europe, outside LHR, FRA & CDG, will be.

Gemuser
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airbear
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 5:12 pm

Hi Gemuser... when commenting recently about Austrian's decision to exit the Australian market early next year, Geoff Dixon said it highlighted the problems of being an end-of-the-line carrier (such as QF or OS, LH and all the others who have come and gone from our shores) as opposed to the advantages of being a mid-point carrier (such as SQ, TG and all the usual suspects).

Surely the trick is to behave like a mid-point carrier. Try this on for size, it's nothing new... both Dubai and Singapore for instance, pride themselves on their open-skies philosopy. Great... so hub through these places from Oz using A330's or the B787's to fly to VIE, ZRH, CDG, MXP, MAD etc etc., leaving the 744's & A380's free for London. Of course, QF would have to bite the bullet, and offer those country's airlines something in return for the local traffic rights out of DXB or SIN to Europe - and we all know what that "something" would be.

What to do about the protectionist Europeans at the other end? Some slick lawyering in Brussels relating to the traffic rights to and from Australia that many Euro airlines possess, do not use but are most welcome to, might do the trick. Or more creatively, maybe QF can do deals with the Aussie primary industry sales people and/or Trade bureaucrats who populate the QF and Chairman's Club lounges and who receive the complementary upgrades, to offer the Euros consignments of cheap wheat, wool and meat in return for traffic rights.

One way or another, if they continue to just fly to LHR & FRA, QF will continue to lose outbound traffic share - keeping in mind that not all travellers will want to fly for 22 or so hours on JQ when it eventually goes to Europe.
 
6thfreedom
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Joined: Thu Sep 30, 2004 11:09 am

RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:45 pm

Quoting B787 (Reply 29):
6thfreedom what planet are you on? Why don't actualy look at who posts responses before you go about abusing people. All I did was ask if CX have cut capacity to Australia - which after your tyraid you didn't even answer. Grow up!

B787. my apologies. obviously my response was not directed at you, but the post below.
FYI - CX has not cut capacity. Cx added a third daily SYD service in late 2004, and will prob do the same in MEL from Nov 2007.

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 19):
Quoting Jupiter2 (Reply 4):QR got knocked back because their business case basically didn't stand up. The benefits they were claiming to the Australian economy, ie: more bums on seats to Australia to spend their money, was seen as simply cashing in on the EK plan and that they would only take passengers away from the incumbent airlines and not generate significant "new" traffic.



Quoting Planemanofnz (Reply 30):
Is there actually a big market for India-Australia travel?

About 300,000 passenger movements per year, growing at about 35% p.a. over the last 5 years!
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4402
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:53 pm

Hi Airbear, a lot there to comment on!

Quoting Airbear (Reply 36):
Surely the trick is to behave like a mid-point carrier. Try this on for size, it's nothing new... both Dubai and Singapore for instance, pride themselves on their open-skies philosopy. Great... so hub through these places from Oz using A330's or the B787's to fly to VIE, ZRH, CDG, MXP, MAD etc etc., leaving the 744's & A380's free for London.

Doable in SIN right now, QF have full fifth freedom right ex SIN. BUT where is QF going to get the feed from. It can only get it from Oz and I strongly suggest that the total Oz market is insufficient to do what you suggest. The other airlines such as SQ, MH, TG, CX, VN, etc all have extra places other than Oz they can get feed from and in fact SQ in particular, can pull extra Oz traffic because it can feed into the smaller South, SE & nearer North Asian destinations that could never be served profitable direct from Oz. Thats why both SQ & MH have better service to the smaller cities than QF.

Quoting Airbear (Reply 36):
Of course, QF would have to bite the bullet, and offer those country's airlines something in return for the local traffic rights out of DXB or SIN to Europe - and we all know what that "something" would be.

As above already held for SIN and DXB is totally open.

Quoting Airbear (Reply 36):
What to do about the protectionist Europeans at the other end? Some slick lawyering in Brussels relating to the traffic rights to and from Australia that many Euro airlines possess, do not use but are most welcome to, might do the trick

There is a proposed EU/Oz open skys proposal around, but Ithink it will founder on the farm sector problem.

Quoting Airbear (Reply 36):
One way or another, if they continue to just fly to LHR & FRA, QF will continue to lose outbound traffic share - keeping in mind that not all travellers will want to fly for 22 or so hours on JQ when it eventually goes to Europe.

So be it. QFs strength is long thin routes. (Even SYD/MEL-LHR is fairly thin). I just cant see yours or similar proposals working (ie being profitable) while QF is Oz based. And if its not, do we still care?

I dont have the ultimate answer, I rather hope Dixon & co do!

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
B787
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon May 09, 2005 7:06 pm

RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Sun Aug 06, 2006 7:46 pm

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 37):
B787. my apologies. obviously my response was not directed at you, but the post below.
FYI - CX has not cut capacity. Cx added a third daily SYD service in late 2004, and will prob do the same in MEL from Nov 2007.

6th Freedom, no problem and thankyou for the apology. Also thanks for the info on CX, I don't why I thought they had cut back service.  Confused
 
airbear
Posts: 610
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 9:27 pm

RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:46 pm

Hi again, Gemuser ... you have a point on the subject of feed into a SIN or DXB hub. But maybe this can be overcome by making better and different use of JQ Asia. Turn the thing into a quasi-full-service 2-class (comfortable in Y, like 32"-33", not 30") feeder line into SIN from the smaller cities using 320's or 321's and/or 333's from places such as HKG. Maybe this can be replicated further west by establishing "JQ Gulf" ... into/out of DXB from nearby Gulf, Indian, Pakistani and Saudi ports.

If nothing else, in trying to get these JQ offshoots up, it would be a fun test to see just how "open" the "skys" in SIN and DXB really were!  Smile

Cheers.
 
CXA330300
Posts: 1258
Joined: Wed May 26, 2004 5:51 am

RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:08 pm

My cousin told me that there was a rumour that SA may expand to SYD, now that the QF codeshare is kaput?

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 20):
Both North American ST members are in Chapter 11.

There are three ST members from N. America (four if you count Mexico). And CO is quite far from Ch. 11. (The chances of them serving Oz are high via HNL or GUM, low from anywhere else).
AC/AA/UA/DL/B6/WN/US*/CO*/FI/BA/IB/AF/SK/LX/Sabena*/TK/LY/SA/MN/SW/AM/CE*/CX/CA/MU/JL/SQ/TG/MH/KA/5J
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 4994
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:12 pm

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 41):
My cousin told me that there was a rumour that SA may expand to SYD, now that the QF codeshare is kaput?

Theres nothing wrong with the codeshare, where did you hear that?

Quoting CXA330300 (Reply 41):
And CO is quite far from Ch. 11. (The chances of them serving Oz are high via HNL or GUM, low from anywhere else).

They already fly to CNS and have done for years.
 
VHVXB
Posts: 5309
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:54 pm

RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:14 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 35):
If Rome was not profitable, then I strongly doubt any where in Europe, outside LHR, FRA & CDG, will be.

Is there any chance of JQ Intl. Serving Rome and Paris??
 
misbeehavin
Posts: 607
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:49 am

RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:26 pm

Quoting BlueShamu330s (Reply 18):
As an outsider and observer, I would say one of the most likely candidates would be a SkyTeam member. Afterall, without going via ICN or all points NWA in Asia, how else can a SkyTeam member get to Australasia from the USA without connections and a circuitous route?

Maybe SkyTeam could jointly try and make a go at it from HNL or something.

All US SkyTeam members fly to HNL, so there would be good feed from ATL, CVG, SLC, EWR, IAH, DTW, MSP, LAX, SFO, SEA, PDX. And then one of them could do the HNL-SYD / MEL flight.

Currently, all US mainland - Australia flights are one-stop, unless you're flying out of LAX or SFO, so this HNL routing could work, at least in theory.
 
spkyflyer
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:20 pm

RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:35 pm

I don't think that Athens can be ruled out at this point (served by JQ).
 
Gemuser
Posts: 4402
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:07 pm

RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:36 pm

Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 44):
Maybe SkyTeam could jointly try and make a go at it from HNL or something.

All US SkyTeam members fly to HNL, so there would be good feed from ATL, CVG, SLC, EWR, IAH, DTW, MSP, LAX, SFO, SEA, PDX. And then one of them could do the HNL-SYD / MEL flight.

Currently, all US mainland - Australia flights are one-stop, unless you're flying out of LAX or SFO, so this HNL routing could work, at least in theory.

I think this is what HA is basically planning. The problem with this plan for SkyTeam is the scheduling co-ordination necessary to make it work. It has to be a pretty seemless and fast (2 hours or so tops) connection or it will not be competative with via LAX.

LAX & SFO should be removed from your list because they both have non stops, so via HNL would not be competative.

Gemuser
DC23468910;B72172273373G73873H74374475275376377L77W;A319 320321332333343;BAe146;C402;DHC6;F27;L188;MD80MD85
 
misbeehavin
Posts: 607
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 3:49 am

RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 2:44 pm

Quoting Gemuser (Reply 46):
LAX & SFO should be removed from your list because they both have non stops, so via HNL would not be competative.

True. But I'm sure there will be a few points whores - like yours truly  Smile - who will take the connection through HNL.
 
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EK413
Posts: 4391
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RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:15 pm

Planemanofnz From New Zealand, joined Sep 2005, 840 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted Fri Aug 4 2006 11:28:28 UTC+2 and read 4301 times:


Quoting Jupiter2 (Reply 1):
we have gained a lot of Asian, South American and Middle East airlines.

You only have 2 South American and 2 Middle Eastern Airlines.

That being said, I do see Ana, Lufthansa and Sri Lankan coming next year or the year after to Australia.


ANA, fat chance...Seasonal charters YES, scheduled services NO....
LH......Why..? Their network / hub operations work fine (HKG,SIN,BKK)....
Sri Lankan airlines have spoken about returning to Australia BUT not until clear sky's ahead (additional/NEW aircraft)....At this stage Sri Lankan codeshare on EK metal....

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
VHVXB
Posts: 5309
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 7:54 pm

RE: New Long Haul Airlines To Australia?

Mon Aug 07, 2006 3:20 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 48):
Sri Lankan airlines have spoken about returning to Australia BUT not until clear sky's ahead (additional/NEW aircraft)

I think OS are disposing of their A340's and there is chance it might be heading towards UL

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